ATTN: Joy -- duality descriptions

[JuJu]

Hi Joy!

I remember awhile back when the forum was typing Ritella, you posted some descriptions of beta duality dyads, (lol at the word dyads... it's ridiculous.) I remember that you filled in the word, e.g. "Hamlet" with "Ritella" haha, and Esenin also.

Do you still have those descriptions, or know where to get them..? I have some old descriptions I found on a Russian site, but from what I remember, yours were different.

If you have them, it'd be cool to discuss them here... Thanks, -Justin

[Ezra]

I remember that you filled in the word, e.g. "Hamlet" with "Ritella" haha, and Esenin also.

Yeah it's an old joke, glam did it with the Wiesband EIE description for me when back she thought I was EIE.

[Joy]

Hi. Just saw this topic.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-ovcharov.html

The links in the initial post don't work anymore, but here's the Beta ones:

SLE/IEI duality
EIE/LSI duality

[silverchris9]

Yeah, they're good, but rather harsh. I don't know a single SLE who actually manipulates people like inanimate objects, although every single one I know does that thing where they piss people off and then don't understand why, which is honestly somewhat comical. Also, I don't know any IEIs who always want to avoid conflict. The part about SLEs being mistrustful can be true though. It's a good thing in my book. But I think the description missed the part about how jocular and fun-seeking SLEs frequently are, unless they have a reason not to be. It is true that I blame other people for shit that's actually my fault... but whatever, I'm working on that. Some aspects of that description are right, but it's also somewhat superficial, sees the outside not the inside, etc. And it appears to have an anti-SLE bias. And it didn't talk about how SLEs make IEIs actually do stuff, basically by telling us to... somehow. Don't ask me how that actually works.

[crazedrat]

the description was accurate in ways but sort of oversimplifies the types. It makes IEIs sound like incompetent morons who need to be helped by superman SLE. Sort of annoying

[discojoe]

the description was accurate in ways but sort of oversimplifies the types. It makes IEIs sound like incompetent morons who need to be helped by ubermensch SLE. Sort of annoying

Fixed.

[Ezra]

Fixed.

NICE.

[Reuben]

See that little bush right above his mouth? I live there.

[Joy]

I had my mom read the SLE/IEI duality description a long time ago when I was having trouble figuring out her type, and she said she didn't identify with it at all but that it actually sounded quite a bit like me. I was just like "whatever mom, I'm LIE, and you don't know what you're talking about".

Anyways, I don't think it talks enough about how the IEI helps the SLE deal with stress through use of Fe which the SLE finds so refreshing (a very important aspect of this duality) or how the IEI looks to the SLE for guidance in logistical/practical matters. I think IEI's also tend to get weighed down by focusing on obstacles and need assurance that their desires can indeed be reached. They can push forward, and the obstacles aren't really as arduous as they might seem. Offering knowledge about the systems in place and how to maneuver about them helps. The SLE knows how to use the rules, policies, and procedures of an institution to his/her advantage as well as which rules are actively enforced and which don't really matter. They can offer a plan for recourse against those who are bothering the IEI, especially if those people are breaking the rules. If the IEI is the one breaking the rules, then the SLE can point out where the problem lies and suggest an alternative course of action.

The description focuses too much on the idea that SLE/IEI duality is about conquering others. The SLE needs ethical advice from the IEI not simply to attain and remain in positions of power, but also simply to be effective in social situations and make good decisions in life. IEI's can explain why something is morally right or wrong without focusing on Fi aspect of it too much and rather putting on a little Fe display which demonstrates how they personally feel about the behavior in question. The SLE's response may be something along the lines of, " Okay, okay... if it matters to you that much then I will/won't do it." The IEI didn't guilt trip the SLE or make the SLE feel like a bad person. The focus wasn't on "the principle of it" or good vs. evil. The SLE goes along with the IEI not because it's "the right thing to do" but because he/she wants to make the IEI happy.

SLE's can make hasty decisions (partially to get it over and done with because they don't like uncertainty and partially because they minimize the significance of obstacles and feel comfortable simply plowing through them to reach their objectives), and IEI's can tell them that there's no need to be so rash. There are factors that still haven't played out yet, and it won't hurt to sit tight for a little bit and wait to act until the timing is better.

[redbaron]

I had my mom read the SLE/IEI duality description a long time ago when I was having trouble figuring out her type, and she said she didn't identify with it at all but that it actually sounded quite a bit like me. I was just like "whatever mom, I'm LIE, and you don't know what you're talking about".

Anyways, I don't think it talks enough about how the IEI helps the SLE deal with stress through use of Fe which the SLE finds so refreshing (a very important aspect of this duality) or how the IEI looks to the SLE for guidance in logistical/practical matters. I think IEI's also tend to get weighed down by focusing on obstacles and need assurance that their desires can indeed be reached. They can push forward, and the obstacles aren't really as arduous as they might seem. Offering knowledge about the systems in place and how to maneuver about them helps. The SLE knows how to use the rules, policies, and procedures of an institution to his/her advantage as well as which rules are actively enforced and which don't really matter. They can offer a plan for recourse against those who are bothering the IEI, especially if those people are breaking the rules. If the IEI is the one breaking the rules, then the SLE can point out where the problem lies and suggest an alternative course of action.

The SLE needs ethical advice from the IEI not simply to attain and remain in positions of power, but also simply to be effective in social situations and make good decisions in life. IEI's can explain why something is morally right or wrong without focusing on Fi aspect of it too much and rather putting on a little Fe display which demonstrates how they personally feel about the behavior in question. The SLE's response may be something along the lines of, " Okay, okay... if it matters to you that much then I will/won't do it." The IEI didn't guilt trip the SLE or make the SLE feel like a bad person. The focus wasn't on "the principle of it" or good vs. evil. The SLE goes along with the IEI not because it's "the right thing to do" but because he/she wants to make the IEI happy.

SLE's can make hasty decisions (partially to get it over and done with because they don't like uncertainty and partially because they minimize the significance of obstacles and feel comfortable simply plowing through them to reach their objectives), and IEI's can tell them that there's no need to be so rash. There are factors that still haven't played out yet, and it won't hurt to sit tight for a little bit and wait to act until the timing is better.

oooh, I really like this, especially the bold.

[Joy]

Thanks!

I also wanted to add that SLE's know that they sometimes upset/offend people. People sometimes tell them that they're cold or insensitive, a bull in a china shop. They don't really get it, not truly, but they know that they need to tone it down around a lot of people or people react coldly to them (and they may be accused of not being a good person).

When an un-dualized SLE first starts regularly interacting with an IEI, they are amazed how how not-easily-offended the IEI is. During or after their interaction with the IEI, they may begin to wonder if they're being or have been insensitive or unkind. If they bring this concern up to the IEI, the IEI laughs it off. "What are you talking about? You're fine!"

Amazing. This kind of acceptance lets the SLE drop his/her guard and start acting more like "themselves". They don't really need to worry about going too far because if they're crossing a line, the IEI will let them know through the aforementioned "little display of Fe".

I don't know how this would play out in later stages of SLE/IEI duality.

[silverchris9]

Anyways, I don't think it talks enough about how the IEI helps the SLE deal with stress through use of Fe which the SLE finds so refreshing (a very important aspect of this duality) or how the IEI looks to the SLE for guidance in logistical/practical matters.

Also, the IEI feels better about him/herself because someone was actually entertained (let alone soothed or seriously helped) by his/her random endearing behavior. I find that IEIs like nothing more than to be helpful, or at least I do. I wonder if/how SLEs help IEIs deal with stress...? Maybe they don't (not actively, besides the whole "dual = calm" thing) because stress is more of an internal thing which is more the IEIs realm. Perhaps the SLE helps with stressors and IEI deals with stress?

I think IEI's also tend to get weighed down by focusing on obstacles and need assurance that their desires can indeed be reached. They can push forward, and the obstacles aren't really as arduous as they might seem. Offering knowledge about the systems in place and how to maneuver about them helps.

No joke. If someone just explains to me how something works, I can normally do it. But I need it in nice step-by-step logical fashion. If I can understand the system as a system, then I can deal with it. Even those horrible huge swamps of data/information can be sort of tamed and organized and made comprehensible by the wonders of Ti. Also knowing my place in a system makes it much easier for me to know what sorts of actions will lead to the desired outcome.

The SLE knows how to use the rules, policies, and procedures of an institution to his/her advantage as well as which rules are actively enforced and which don't really matter. They can offer a plan for recourse against those who are bothering the IEI, especially if those people are breaking the rules. If the IEI is the one breaking the rules, then the SLE can point out where the problem lies and suggest an alternative course of action.

And also just be like, "wtf are you doing, get up and go do the right thing instead," but not get mad at you, and even if they do, you just sort of act cute and all is forgiven (usually).

The description focuses too much on the idea that SLE/IEI duality is about conquering others.

Word.

The SLE needs ethical advice from the IEI not simply to attain and remain in positions of power, but also simply to be effective in social situations and make good decisions in life. IEI's can explain why something is morally right or wrong without focusing on Fi aspect of it too much and rather putting on a little Fe display which demonstrates how they personally feel about the behavior in question. The SLE's response may be something along the lines of, " Okay, okay... if it matters to you that much then I will/won't do it." The IEI didn't guilt trip the SLE or make the SLE feel like a bad person. The focus wasn't on "the principle of it" or good vs. evil. The SLE goes along with the IEI not because it's "the right thing to do" but because he/she wants to make the IEI happy.

And this makes the IEI feels special, and feeds his/her ego, since this important person (SLEs always seem like important people, whether they are in certain objectives senses or not) was willing to do something simply out of kindness to the IEI in particular.

Also, the IEI needs the SLE to be successful in lots of situations (possibly including social ones) merely by saying, "hey, you're doing x," or better still, "hey, we're doing x, come with me." I generally need lots of pressure to do things in order to actually do them. First, because for all that I am capable of predicting how things will work, I magically turn uncertain when it's something/someone I care about for whatever reason. Like, peer pressure is good for me. It makes me go from, "I dunno... I mean, I want to, but I'm not sure..." to, "Oh, okay, I'll do it!" Also, sometimes I'm not sure if people really want me to do something with them or if they're just being nice (and I have no interest in tagging along with people who are just being nice; or if I do so, I want to know very specifically what sort of situation I'm in), and SLEs are always totally clear about that kind of stuff.

SLE's can make hasty decisions (partially to get it over and done with because they don't like uncertainty and partially because they minimize the significance of obstacles and feel comfortable simply plowing through them to reach their objectives), and IEI's can tell them that there's no need to be so rash. There are factors that still haven't played out yet, and it won't hurt to sit tight for a little bit and wait to act until the timing is better.

Such is the magic of Ni! There is no such thing as uncertainty. We can just skip to the right answer without wasting time on all the irrelevant possibilities. Okay, actually, in real life there is such thing as uncertainty, but yeah, we can provide some useful advice on what factors will determine the overall outcome. I guess I know when I need more information.

Anyway, I loved everything you wrote joy. You should write a duality description to replace that one.

When an un-dualized SLE first starts regularly interacting with an IEI, they are amazed how how not-easily-offended the IEI is. During or after their interaction with the IEI, they may begin to wonder if they're being or have been insensitive or unkind. If they bring this concern up to the IEI, the IEI laughs it off. "What are you talking about? You're fine!"

YES. This happens all the freaking time. And it's just like, "of course I'm not offended! If I were actually offended, I would let you know." I often find that this happens especially if I react negatively to something in a given situation, but it's usually something internal relative to me, not what the SLE said/did/whatever.

I also wanted to add that SLE's know that they sometimes upset/offend people. People sometimes tell them that they're cold or insensitive, a bull in a china shop. They don't really get it, not truly, but they know that they need to tone it down around a lot of people or people react coldly to them (and they may be accused of not being a good person).

And it is adorable/hilarious how they actually do care about stuff like that. Dual's weaknesses are somehow humbling because it's like, "you're so cool! I can't believe that I can actually help you!" (this is probably more of an introvert-to-extrovert thing) I'm sort of grateful that SLEs aren't perfect (even though they come off pretty darn perfect) so that I have a function in their lives (even if it's just to be a golden bird singing of things past or passing or to come, which is my ideal state anyway). But then that gets into Augustine and how we shouldn't be grateful for sad things happening so that we can feel pity/give mercy, because that would be malicious goodwill... (blah blah blah Augustine tangent).

[Joy]

Thanks for the input, silverchris9. It's interesting hearing about SLE/IEI duality from the IEI's perspective.

I think IEI's help SLE's deal with stress primarily through Fe. They can sense when the SLE is tense or overwhelmed and can offer a pleasant and refreshing distraction. If there's a subject that the SLE seems stressed out about, the IEI seems to be able to sense if the SLE needs to talk about it or if it's better to just let it go for now and change the subject to something more enjoyable. If the SLE does need to talk about it, the IEI can offer insight into the situation that the SLE hadn't thought of. IEI's always seem to know exactly the right thing to say.

As far as writing a description, I don't think I'm really qualified. I just started talking closely with two IEI friends late in the summer this past year, and I usually only get to hang out with one of them irl (the other I talk to a lot online though). We're still in that first stage of duality, I think. It's the "omg, I can act like this with him/her and it's really okay? and not just okay, but appreciated and encouraged?" stage. And we don't really get to spend all that much time together.

Also, until recently I thought I was a different type. I don't think I've ever been "dualized" before, and as such I don't think I've ever really acted naturally out of my ego block. I've always edited or restrained or adapted myself in some way.

I feel like a toddler just learning about the world and my role in it. It's fun and exciting, but I haven't really explored it much yet. I will say, however, that this is the first time that Socionics hasn't been a bit depressing to me. (It's more troublesome now though. )

[Gilly]

They can sense when the SLE is tense or overwhelmed and can offer a pleasant and refreshing distraction.

This is not how most Betas deal with tension or stress...are you ILE after all?

[Joy]

This is not how most Betas deal with tension or stress...are you ILE after all?

I 'm pretty sure most Alphas would find the types of behaviors I'm referring to as "pleasant" and "refreshing" rather obnoxious and over the top. I sent you an example in a PM.

I've always thought it wasn't because the SLE wanted to please me, it was because they assumed that I'd considered all the factors involved with my fantastic Ni and they trusted my judgement. Maybe I'm flattering myself

Part of it certainly has to do with trusting their judgment and believing that their reasoning makes sense.

I've actually found this more relevant to my relationships with LSIs, who seem to walk into the worst situations and expect everything to be fine. At least SLEs have a vague backup plan, based on their adorably unfounded belief in their ability to charm everyone's pants off...

Of course there's a back up plan. There's a back up plan for the back up plan, too. And there's an "if all else fails" plan. It's nothing concrete by any means, just things I've considered.

In my experience, SLEs (actually, LSIs too) let you whine at them and they suggest courses of action, often not serious ("Do you want me to kill him for you? Rough him up a little?"), but I think it's more of a way to diffuse the IEI's emotional explosion and help them calm down enough to think clearly.

That actually works? That's awesome, haha. (Like I said, I'm still learning about this duality thing... )

I totally agree - SLEs give the best explanations of all the steps in some stupid rote task, and once I understand the reasons underlying why I need to do a certain thing, I can remember how to do it.

My IEI friend works at the same company I work for at a different location, and sometimes he'll call to ask me about policies/procedures/rules because he's having trouble with his boss. There have been times when I've explained how to do a task over the phone to him when he was like, "Okay, that makes sense. My boss didn't explain it to me like that. He just went over it really quickly and I didn't understand what he was trying to show me, and then when I mess up he says 'I've already shown you this three times!' and gets mad at me." I wished he worked at the location I do. It would be super easy for me to show him things and he'd do a lot better.

I find this with other betas to a lesser extent - our conversations slide into the gutter at an increasingly rapid rate. When I've been hanging out almost exclusively with betas for a while, I actually forget how to act around other people. Like, I forget that innuendoes aren't meant to be explicit, and wrestling is not a normal morning greeting.

LOL that's so awesome

[JuJu]

This is a very good description of EIE-LSI duality, IMO--maybe the best I've read... It touches on a lot of things that I've experienced personally in the relationship.

For example, it highlights the cathartic "quarreling" that characterizes this dyad (haha) -- to others I know it can seem unhealthy or uncaring, but personally I wouldn't have it any other way... It's honest, real, and what I respect in another person... Unadorned truth.

It's true that LSIs sometimes pick fights about matters that aren't the real problem... And it's definitely true that they keep pain inside for a long time and become brooding...

There's A LOT of this description I could highlight as corresponding to my personal experience... Both of EIEs and LSIs.

Thanks Joy!!

[Joy]

You're welcome. (:

[silverchris9]

In my experience, SLEs (actually, LSIs too) let you whine at them and they suggest courses of action, often not serious ("Do you want me to kill him for you? Rough him up a little?"), but I think it's more of a way to diffuse the IEI's emotional explosion and help them calm down enough to think clearly.

Ah, that makes sense. Seems like some combination of feeling less powerless and elaborate revenge fantasies, which always comforted me as a child.

Thanks for the input, silverchris9. It's interesting hearing about SLE/IEI duality from the IEI's perspective.

Oh, you're welcome.

[JuJu]

Does an LSI out there have ideas about the EIE-LSI dual description..? It'd be cool to read.

If not, I'm gonna go on a trip with an LSI tomorrow, so I'll try to get him to read and comment on it...

It seems very accurate from my perspective; however, I believe that an LSI might find it critical, as it seems to focus more on LSIs weak points than EIEs.

[Heinel]

Does an LSI out there have ideas about the EIE-LSI dual description..? It'd be cool to read.

If not, I'm gonna go on a trip with an LSI tomorrow, so I'll try to get him to read and comment on it...

It seems very accurate from my perspective; however, I believe that an LSI might find it critical, as it seems to focus more on LSIs weak points than EIEs.

I identify very strongly with the last sentence.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I think the reason why I love SLEs is because I am really admired and like it when they are pissed off. Like that sort of temper looks like a weakness but to me it's rather hot or something. Most people view anger as a weakness like 'why are you losing your cool' but I've always been charged up when other people are hot-headed.