Reconsidering Enneagram Type 5w6

[ArchonAlarion]

After researching directional theory, It has become apparent to me that 6 is not as fitting as 5 for me. Let me explain:

• 5's are withdrawing on the surface and power seeking underneath.
  
  
• 5's feel that they cannot adequately control their environment directly. They withdraw/detach themselves therefore, but harbor a deep desire to have power.
  
  
• 5's withdraw to gain power. In their minds they separate themselves from the outside world to retain a sense of objectivity (which translates into a feeling or power).
  
  
• 5's become observers/investigators. They accumulate knowledge because knowledge/information is basically a form of detached power.
  
  
• 5's compare themselves to others based on intellectual (detached) power. They like to be the most objective, aloof, enigmatic, intelligent person in the room. They want to be the expert. 5's become reserved researching types, who hope that by maintaining uninvolvement in the world along with observation of the world, they will have the more control over situations than others. Putting this knowledge into action is where 8 integration comes in.
  
  
• 5's feel inadequate when someone has more power than them, as with 2's and 8's. 2's like to have emotional and guilt based power, 8's like to have physical and territorial power, 5's like to have observational and intellectual power.

If all this is true, then I am certainly a 5w6 instead of a 6w5.

[electric sheep]

6 vs 5: Sixes focus much more on motives and intentions. Fives look before they leap emotionally. Sixes don't romanticize isolation and don't have delusions of grandeur like fives do. In contrast to fives, sixes orient themselves towards practical application of knowledge.

and...

5 vs 6: Fives are naturally curious types and love knowledge for its own sake. They are oblivious to procedures and policies in power structures. Unlike sixes their first instinct is to intellectualize their emotions.

[ArchonAlarion]

I hate saying this, but yes I romanticize my feelings of isolation and I've always enjoyed imagining myself as a detached god who drifts through space exploring and building worlds.

And I don't think I've ever had an emotion that I have not anaylzed ruthlessly.

[electric sheep]

well then you might be right.

[ArchonAlarion]

Now I'm right lol!

So I guess ILE's can be 5w6 and I was being stupid.

I also do the 5 teleportation thing where I'll be there physically, but not mentally. Kinda odd. People have told me that I do this, but I didn't think it was type related until Krae explained it to me. That's where my doubts started.

[Galen]

I've actually been considering 5w6 for myself as well (if that's even possible for ENFp).

What do you mean by "teleportation thing"? I imagine it being something to the effect "I'm physically in a place, but my head is thinking about lots of things that don't relate to where I am."

[ArchonAlarion]

Yeah... eyes glazed over, but it's more like I'm very uninteractive and it becomes obvious I am not involved in whatever is going on. Sometimes I do it on purpose because I do not like where I am and it's a good way to escape it and other times I become excited about some mental investigation and simply lose interest in local events.

[Galen]

As for 5 power-seeking, do they seek to make themselves seem superior by seemingly alienating themselves? Sorta like an "I'm the smartest person in this room, I don't need these idiots" thing?

[717495]

5 ENTps ftw. I also wonder if they're less energetic than the others. 5s usually seem introverted.

[ArchonAlarion]

@Arctures: A 5 might do that, but I don't.

Then again I am always the smartest person in the room, so N/A.

Understanding the different enneagram groups has helped me come to my decision, so maybe it will help you (read through the link for comparison to other types):

The Enneagram's Centres

The Five in the Thinking Centre:
Fives tend to over express their thinking and substitute thinking for doing. Fives see the world as threatening and uncertain so they focus their thinking inward, hoping to understand it. Fives believe if they sufficiently study the world, they will understand it. Once they understand it, they will have the confidence to act and cope with the outer world. Unfortunately Fives get stuck in an "analysis paralysis" where every answer they generate raises more questions, which they must answer. Like the other members of this Centre, Fives seek security. Because they feel the world is very uncertain, Fives withdraw to feel secure. They retreat into their minds to understand the world around them, removing themselves from directly observing that which fears them. Unfortunately, this strategy generates even more fear. By removing themselves from the world, they are less able to participate -- the best path to understanding.

The Five in the Withdrawn social style (Withdrawing):
Fives want security and seek it by withdrawing from a world they see as threatening. Fives also withdraw by minimizing their needs and dependencies. Fives spend large amounts of time studying and thinking about the world -- so much so that they become more attached to their interpretation of the world than to direct observation. Under stress, Fives retreat further into their minds to understand the source of the stress.

Fives in the Competency Harmonic:
Fives can get into conflicts by being too detached, isolated, and provocative. Fives naturally detach themselves emotionally from the world to be objective. They believe that they have the mental resources to deal with problems. In conflict, Fives will want to withdraw and will think for awhile before coming back with a solution, often to the irritation of others. Fives feel that they can solve things by themselves, without relying on others. They may come back with highly original ideas (thinking outside the box). On the other hand, they may waste their time reinventing the wheel.

Fives in the Rejection object relation group (power seeking):
Fives reject and minimize their own needs (especially their physical and emotional ones). The Five has only one gift left: her head. Fives offer their intelligence and expertise to others, hoping that others will appreciate their knowledge. By building up their own expertise, Fives seek to become important enough not to be rejected further. Fives, having cut off their emotional needs, try to not need others, to be independent, and to not need love. Fives believe that their lack of emotion will shield them from the pain of further rejection.



@Poli: It's weird. I'm introverted socially, but not energetically. My E-type makes me subdued and shy when dealing with people, but otherwise I am pretty spazzy and energetic. Remember that people are just one thing in my environment. An extravert has high energy, but why must it be directed towards social interactions?

[Creepy-male]

As for 5 power-seeking, do they seek to make themselves seem superior by seemingly alienating themselves? Sorta like an "I'm the smartest person in this room, I don't need these idiots" thing?

Read up on directional theory, power-seeking is different between the 3 types that have it as their deep-psychological motivation.

8's are really what people are most likely to traditionally think of as power seekers....

for 5's their more like the "Knowledge is Power" type kind of power. The get off on learning things and intellectual mastery. Its not an intellectually arrogant attitude though, it only seems that way from the outside in, from the inside out its merely not so much that the 5 thinks they are a grandeur genius, its just that they care less about simply accepting something as true because its "common knowledge", they want to be convinced and if they feel as though things don't line up they will almost always side with skepticism over faith in the experts. Other people take this indifference to the experts as a sort of arrogant attitude, but its just their strategy, things have to match up in their heads or else it generates anxiety and fear that what they know is all wrong and if its wrong they won't be able to do anything and will be powerless and ill-equipped mentally to handle life.

6's by contrast are after support, their mentally adept in their own right, but they are less argumentative and less likely to challenge the experts, they want to learn from the experts so long as the experts seem like they are a reliable source (this is key, 6's are simply not brainwashed by establish ideas, they think but its on who to trust rather than on the actual objective theory and ideas themselves). 6's are naturally skeptical to people they see as non-experts, while 5's may not be, they are willing to entertain far out ideas that other people consider to be non-sense or not useful.

Fives reject and minimize their own needs (especially their physical and emotional ones). The Five has only one gift left: her head. Fives offer their intelligence and expertise to others, hoping that others will appreciate their knowledge. By building up their own expertise, Fives seek to become important enough not to be rejected further. Fives, having cut off their emotional needs, try to not need others, to be independent, and to not need love. Fives believe that their lack of emotion will shield them from the pain of further rejection.

Yep thats me, I have the w4 in their too which introduces an emotional element, but first and foremost I am less open about it because I think the lack of sincere emotional expression shields me from others, I also like to differ my opinions/judgments/values/feeling to people I don't trust out of fear for them being rejected, I'll just play it level/hypothetical/objective, as in "If I believe in this therefore...." or "Even if I felt this way, then...." -- Other people find that objectivity wierd sometimes, because they don't detach out and view things objectively, living to them is being in the game at all time, engaged in the driver seat with their own feelings and values, I like to get out of the seat from time to time and intellectualize my feelings and other peoples.

[Crispy]

What makes you think you're not an INTj with high energy?

[Galen]

What makes you think you're not an INTj with high energy?

Er, IJ temperament by definition means averaging generally lower internal energy levels.

[electric sheep]

What makes you think you're not an INTj with high energy?

That would be me. It's not that spontaneous though. I have to consciously "turn it on" and it depends more or less on the energy of the people around me.

[Crispy]

Ya I was referring to the extroverted introverts. D(sheep) and C

[ArchonAlarion]

I identify more with the ENTp-ISFp dyad, but I've considered it.

[Gilly]

5 ENTps ftw. I also wonder if they're less energetic than the others. 5s usually seem introverted.

Definitely. ILE 5s are the ones that need SEI 7s.

[717495]

@Poli: It's weird. I'm introverted socially, but not energetically. My E-type makes me subdued and shy when dealing with people, but otherwise I am pretty spazzy and energetic. Remember that people are just one thing in my environment. An extravert has high energy, but why must it be directed towards social interactions?

You're probably more energetic than me, but I wouldn't be able to exactly verify it. Usually I laze around all day, but I can be pretty unstable while doing so. Like at school when everyone is sitting down, I'll look more extroverted. Heh. But I figured I just had to be ENTp. Two reasons: VI. I sort of VI INTj, but Ti-ENTp is like really on the money. The second, intertype relations. INTj doesn't seem to work with those at all, where as ENTp is again, really on the money. Ashton did a really good job.

Definitely. ILE 5s are the ones that need SEI 7s.

Hmm.

[ArchonAlarion]

Yeah... I used to be in constant trouble at school for talking, but that waned in high school somewhat. If a social setting feels secure, it is often true that I am one of the most interactive there. Honestly I fluctuate too much, and just call myself ambiverted in general.

What is an example of an ISFp 7? I did not think they existed, but perhaps I was wrong about that as well.

[717495]

I used to get into trouble in elementary school too, for joking while we're supposed to be reading or an assignment, or for talking or making side comments. Sometimes I would laugh uncontrollably about something I was thinking. Weird shit. I was always kind of pissed when I got into trouble though, because my reasoning was that I didn't get misbehave that often, so you shouldn't react so negatively towards it when it happens. But when I think back, I probably perceived too much of my behavior as innocent when it wasn't, and I didn't want to be an adult or be responsible. I loathed people who were so serious. But I wasn't really all that bad, I was kind of weird yet a lot of people liked me, and I was pretty chill most of the time.

They had 4 tracks in my elementary school, for instance, there would be 4 1st grade classes, 4 2nd grade classes, etc. and they would all begin the year off on a different month. We didn't do year round with a summer break. When you finished 1st grade, you would take a month break and start 2nd grade on the same track with the same students, while other tracks had different months to begin. So it would have been perfect if they made each track a different quadra. It would be kind of beside the point of having tracks though. I would have had way more fun if all the students in my class were in my quadra though. I wonder if overall it would impact things in a positive way or a negative way.

[Gilly]

Yeah... I used to be in constant trouble at school for talking, but that waned in high school somewhat. If a social setting feels secure, it is often true that I am one of the most interactive there. Honestly I fluctuate too much, and just call myself ambiverted in general.

What is an example of an ISFp 7? I did not think they existed, but perhaps I was wrong about that as well.

How does Elisha Cuthbert sound.

Ever wonder why a 4 like crazedrat would think she's SLE? *chin scratch*

[717495]

I'm not all that familiar with the enneagram, but do you think an Si-ISFp could be a 7? I know an ISFp who I think is Si sub who fits the description I'm reading of 7, in some ways.

[ArchonAlarion]

Yeah, I don't see why they couldn't be, but I'd like to meet one that I know is.

[strrrng]

I disagree with this typing. You lack the detached self-control that 5s exhibit in intellectual settings, instead seeming to get inordinately riled up at discord, blithely promoting intellectual superiority and just generally investing way more energy into proving points than would be expected of any 5 (i.e. debate for a few hours, get angsty, walk, come back, proclaim your being right, etc.). Your style is somewhat similar to the likes of krae and crazedrat, who maintain a general detachment with an underlying reactivity that comes out clearly at specific times. 5s like niffweed, marianorajoy, sarah and cpig are generally emotionally immovable when it comes to debates, seeming to maintain a barrier between themselves and the topic at hand; you, on the other hand, seem easily inclined to throw yourself into arguments with the implicit goal of being right, avoiding being wrong, i.e. losing footing.

So, outside of behavioral traits that could just as easily manifest in a 5 wing (especially someone with a 4w5 fix), I don't see it.

[electric sheep]

fwiw George Soros is 5w6 so/sx according to my sources

[Creepy-male]

I disagree with this typing. You lack the detached self-control that 5s exhibit in intellectual settings, instead seeming to get inordinately riled up at discord, blithely promoting intellectual superiority and just generally investing way more energy into proving points than would be expected of any 5 (i.e. debate for a few hours, get angsty, walk, come back, proclaim your being right, etc.). Your style is somewhat similar to the likes of krae and crazedrat, who maintain a general detachment with an underlying reactivity that comes out clearly at specific times. 5s like niffweed, marianorajoy, sarah and cpig are generally emotionally immovable when it comes to debates, seeming to maintain a barrier between themselves and the topic at hand; you, on the other hand, seem easily inclined to throw yourself into arguments with the implicit goal of being right, avoiding being wrong, i.e. losing footing.

So, outside of behavioral traits that could just as easily manifest in a 5 wing (especially someone with a 4w5 fix), I don't see it.

I agree with this, its a really good explanation of the 5.

However I think when you consider the 5w4 you are introducing a particular element of emotionality (from the 4) into the 5 that works to recharacterize this description slightly.

[strrrng]

I agree with this, its a really good explanation of the 5.

However I think when you consider the 5w4 you are introducing a particular element of emotionality (from the 4) into the 5 that works to recharacterize this description slightly.

Yeah, it definitely affects it. There's a more personalized, introspective, somewhat bitter attitude to the character; the implicit feeling of alienation is reinforced by a sense of individuality. I tend to think of 5w4s as the pure 'strangers,' given their seeming nonchalant sense of resignation and detached self-absorption.

[Creepy-male]

Yeah, it definitely affects it. There's a more personalized, introspective, somewhat bitter attitude to the character; the implicit feeling of alienation is reinforced by a sense of individuality. I tend to think of 5w4s as the pure 'strangers,' given their seeming nonchalant sense of resignation and detached self-absorption.

Reasonable enough, but I think that they are only in a narrow sense defined as pure strangers, their resignation is obvious and characterizing on the surface but on the fundamental level they still have all the basic desires of any human being.

[strrrng]

Reasonable enough, but I think that they are only in a narrow sense defined as pure strangers, their resignation is obvious and characterizing on the surface but on the fundamental level they still have all the basic desires of any human being.

Well yeah, of course we're speaking in an enneagram context (archetypal characters and such). They don't lack humanity lol.

[Creepy-male]

Well yeah, of course we're speaking in an enneagram context (archetypal characters and such). They don't lack humanity lol.

Just checking, its easy if your not a particular type to see them a particular way, I see 6's as a bit more sheepish than 5, but thats my over-identification with my type and having pride in who I am more than it is an objective reality.

[ArchonAlarion]

I relate to:

Thinking center
Withdrawn
Rejection object relation
Competency group

That's 5. 6 seems too dependent on things outside of myself and it's something I don't relate to.

Also, I have realized that I do disintegrate to 7. I get worried that I'm losing my intellectual superiority, so I frantically try to fill my mind with research and activities to feel like I'm not "falling behind". When I'm feeling optimized I feel more in control, more demanding (which is okay), and competent. I'm not convinced of 6 anymore. 8 integration is something I can actually see being helpful for me and 7 disintegration is more akin to how I act when stressed.


Social 5 - Seeking Acceptance/Belonging/Inclusion/Status

Udit Patel The Specialist (Ichazo's "Totems")

Social Fives focus their avarice and hoarding in the social realm, meaning that they socialize through their particular areas of expertise. Fives endeavor to master some skill or body of knowledge, and they relate to others primarily through that area of their mastery. As social types, Social Fives are more comfortable interacting with people, but their comfort is largely dependent on having a context for being in a social situation. They need a particular task or function that gives them the confidence to interact with people (for example, being the DJ at a party, or having a specific topic of discussion at a social event).They enjoy talking intensely with other people who share their (sometimes esoteric) interests—either in person or through the Internet. Social Fives feel that their expertise is what they can "bring to the table" since they make it their business to learn things that others may need. While generally quiet, Social Fives can become quite talkative if their area of knowledge becomes the topic of conversation—anything from computer expertise to trivia about movies or comic books is fair game. Less healthy Social Fives can become elitist, feeling others are too unintelligent to understand their thoughts or conversation. They can also be fiercely argumentative, losing social connections by reactively proving others' ideas inadequate.


LifeExplore

Social Fives connect with groups of like-minded people. Enjoy living in the flow of a group interest, sharing knowledge and affiliations. May prefer specialized or esoteric areas of knowledge that exclude all but the initiated. Could live in high society, know the "right" people, belong to the best clubs. Might enjoy speaking a professional language that few people understand. Can be quite friendly but, at times, terrific snobs. Romanticize secret elitist group membership; concerned with titles, degrees, credentials, etc. Realm of academia.

Disintegration:

Fives usually cope with difficulties by retreating into their minds where they feel more confident and in control. But Fives cannot retreat indefinitely, and eventually they need stimulation and interaction. Fives also tend to be nervous and high-strung, so when there is no outlet for their nervous energy, it builds up, eventually expressing itself in restlessness and hyperactivity. (Fives can become literally "restless"—and often develop insomnia.) Anxiety causes their minds to overheat, and to jump from one thought to the next. Much of their characteristic focus gets scattered. After being alone and concentrating for so long, they begin to overcompensate by overdoing their activities and lurching from one promising idea or experience to another. They become like a starving person at a banquet, and their scattered, hyperactive behavior can look like that of an average Seven. At such times, usually quiet Fives may become very talkative, impulsive, and flighty. Their underlying anxiety gets acted out in compulsive, even manic, behavior in ways that resemble lower-functioning Sevens.

[Creepy-male]

Can you give a description of how your daily life goes and unfolds in say a month in the real world Archon? Without this enneagram stuff in mind, but just narrate, and then I'll give you my opinion on what enneagram type I think you are.

[ArchonAlarion]

Wake up, go to the gym even though I probably don't have to, but I do because i'll be stressed if I haven't been working on improving myself physically.

Maybe eat breakfast, sit alone and finish quickly.

Go to class, possibly share my knowledge or correct someone's error in a discussion. Zone out writing about socionics, doodling, or making tabletop game rules.

Go for a walk to expend some energy and listen to music, which is stress relieving.

Eat lunch alone most of the time.

Class maybe again.

Sometimes I'll hang around my suitemates, but only briefly before I retreat back to my room to research, think, write, video games, etc.

Dinner alone or with my estp friend.

More hanging in my room (like right now. there are hot girls visitng my suite, but I'm too shy/apathetic to be social)

That's basically my weekday. Weekends I might meetup with people, smoke, go to my house, yeah.

In a month I might solve some socionics puzzle or find something interesting to research.

[Creepy-male]

Wake up, go to the gym even though I probably don't have to, but I do because i'll be stressed if I haven't been working on improving myself physically.

Maybe eat breakfast, sit alone and finish quickly.

Go to class, possibly share my knowledge or correct someone's error in a discussion. Zone out writing about socionics, doodling, or making tabletop game rules.

Go for a walk to expend some energy and listen to music, which is stress relieving.

Eat lunch alone most of the time.

Class maybe again.

Sometimes I'll hang around my suitemates, but only briefly before I retreat back to my room to research, think, write, video games, etc.

Dinner alone or with my estp friend.

More hanging in my room (like right now. there are hot girls visitng my suite, but I'm too shy/apathetic to be social)

That's basically my weekday. Weekends I might meetup with people, smoke, go to my house, yeah.

In a month I might solve some socionics puzzle or find something interesting to research.

5w6, 5-3-? tritype

[ArchonAlarion]

I was thinking 4 for the tritype, then 1 maybe.

but im not especially knowledgable about it.

[ArchonAlarion]

These popped out to me:


5-4-1: these Fives are perhaps the most typical of this type’s usual description – they’re withdrawn, imaginative, ingenious, detail-oriented and sensitive. Very intelligent and creative but also somewhat capricious, fussy and impractical, they have explicit standards of intellectual ability and artistic taste and tend to reject and ridicule anything and anyone that doesn’t rise up to them. Typical isolationists who feel misunderstood by society, they hide in their ivory tower of ideas and ideals, abstractly reconstructing reality according to their own terms.
typical subtypes: self-preserving, sexual, 5w4
similar tritypes: 4-5-1, 1-5-4
flavours: individualistic, elegant, inventive and nit-picking

5-4-9: shy, somewhat fragile and a bit romantic, such Fives tend to put on a congenial façade to hide their rich inner worlds from the society. They outwardly appear friendly but reserved, usually mysterious to other people who sense there is more depth and intensity hidden behind their amiable mask. These Fives have rich imaginations and love to immerse themselves in thoughts and fantasies. They are introspective, dreamy, creative and socially withdrawn, but also disorganized and painfully avoidant.
typical subtypes: self-preserving, sexual, 5w4
similar tritypes: 5-9-4, 9-5-4, 4-5-9
flavours: insightful, imaginative, enigmatic and unstructured

5-1-4: these Fives stand out by being rather fussy - they’re pretentious and perfectionist and can be highly demanding of their environment. Idealistic and principled, these Fives can be very criticizing and rejecting of people and situations that do not meet their standards – many would call them fastidious. To a certain extent, they believe themselves to be superior and different from others - misunderstood but brilliant. Indeed their intellect, insightfulness and logical thinking, as well as their physical and emotional fragility contribute to an overly cerebral image.
typical subtypes: self-preserving, 5w4, 5w6
similar tritypes: 1-5-4, 5-4-1
flavours: principled, precise, finicky and sensitive

[munenori2]

OMG I'm 5w6 too!!!!

[ArchonAlarion]

Lol... okay I admit it was broad. I feel slightly uncomfortable with sharing the more romantic and personal parts. Or being overly downer-ish.

[strrrng]

lol. depressive isolation is a bitch.

[Shagbag The Wizard]

• 5's are withdrawing on the surface and power seeking underneath.
  
  
• 5's feel that they cannot adequately control their environment directly. They withdraw/detach themselves therefore, but harbor a deep desire to have power.
  
  
• 5's withdraw to gain power. In their minds they separate themselves from the outside world to retain a sense of objectivity (which translates into a feeling or power).
  
  
• 5's become observers/investigators. They accumulate knowledge because knowledge/information is basically a form of detached power.
  
  
• 5's compare themselves to others based on intellectual (detached) power. They like to be the most objective, aloof, enigmatic, intelligent person in the room. They want to be the expert. 5's become reserved researching types, who hope that by maintaining uninvolvement in the world along with observation of the world, they will have the more control over situations than others. Putting this knowledge into action is where 8 integration comes in.
  
  
• 5's feel inadequate when someone has more power than them, as with 2's and 8's. 2's like to have emotional and guilt based power, 8's like to have physical and territorial power, 5's like to have observational and intellectual power.

If all this is true, then I am certainly a 5w6 instead of a 6w5.

Yeah, that all sounds like me, although, oddly, I'm EII.