Introverted Intuition Ni - "Intuition of the Time": Huh?

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[WVBRY]

I agree that introverted intuition gets a poor name. I also agree with your description of and how it causes people to be supersitious, see the big picture in a msyticl or abstract sense etc.

I think intuition of change, or maybe intuition of movement are better names for , even though they might be more specific and could cause confusion a bit like the name "business logic"' does.

Perhaps intuition of patterns would be a good name for , but Im not too sure that doesnt see patterns. Perhaps an ENTp or ENFp could help me out here. Im sure that ENTPs and ENFps can see patterns but it would be a good question to ask yourself if its the introverted part of your base function that causes it, or the extraverted part of your base function that causes it.

[Cone]

Read this.

This can be explained by Pedro's "patterns of patterns" comment.

This is also how INTps can be neurotic in their thinking, too.[/url]

[drake]

My guess is that intuition of time collects patterns (intervals) of time for activities of some object.

Combined with , which extracts time intervals, it's possible to predict after which activity some activity of some object may in the future happen. It's also possible to guess which activities precede some certain activity and how long would it take to complete them.

Imagination allows INTPs,ENTJs to model objects doing activities and their interaction with environment. Also it models how long does some activity of some object last considering activites of other objects in the environment.

[drake]

To me it perfectly makes sense.
Let's wait until Cone writes something. Let him find something other that what I've written.

[Waddlesworth]

Whoever understands socionics better than us dubbed Ni "intuition of time". they saw a connection that obviously some of us aren't seeing. Its something that probably takes alot of contemplation and imagination.

I agree it is the one description that sorta looks funny, but maybe thats because the western concept of time might be different or something. But really, we don't know a tenth of what some real experts out there know. I see an "Attack" approach that some people make at the system, rather than letting themselves understand the system. I dont see how real progress can be made attacking the fundamentals. Its like a first grader attacking the meaning of the word "S".

[Slava]

is the ability to consider all concepts at once (thus allowing simulation of multiple concepts to be done in the mind). Simlation = seeking possibilities. is the ability to consider all events at once (thus allowing transformation of multiple events to be done in the mind) Transformation = Probabilities. I think it should have been named, Intuition of Possibilities (with symbol xy), and Intuition of Probabilities (with symbol x/y)

[Cone]

Let's wait until Cone writes something. Let him find something other that what I've written.

Believe me, ever since I found Socionics, I've been analyzing my perception processes quite heavily. This is what I've come up with:


: Not as magical as you think (even though introverted intuition sounds really cool)

Ni seems to be a perception function that records things (especially environments) implicitly in memory. This leads to the introverted intuitive having a more acute implicit memory than most other types. But one must remember, only sensory details seem to get recorded as memory is mostly visual. Non-visual details seem to escape the introverted intuitive as fast as they come, and this leads to them being poor listeners (I really sucked on the listening parts of those standardized tests, which really surprised all of my 'less-intelligent peers', who did quite well.) One thing about introverted irrational functions is that they seem to perceive the relationships between objects (or events for Ni.) If you were to take an INTp on vacation, he would be more apt to remember the negative aspects rather than the positive ones, and this leads to another trait of Ni.

Ni seems to 'expect' things to be preserved in an environment or process. So when something is upset, it hits the introverted intuitive with heavy force, so much that it can cause cognitive dissonance (and this may be why INTps are so skeptical, because a change of state 'hurts' more or causes more cognitive dissonance in the INTp than in any other type.) So, Ni is very astute in noticing changes and especially absences in environments or processes.

Now about the time thing: I think perhaps Ni can predict things because of implicit memories that it records of similar things, so it can interpolate information to form a proposed event. It's a memory thing, mixed with intelligence, I guess. To predict things, I actually have to consciously try; it's not something that happens automatically (although sometimes it does.)

- Some INxp's are very conservative about certain things, they always seem to find a way to rain on my Ne parade.

When I'm really agitated, I can even rain on other INxp's parades.

- Ne is the "Intuiton of Possibilities", shouldn't Ni be a mirror image of this?

Like I said before, it seems to be an 'Intuition of Change', or something like that. It can be negative sometimes, it can be positive sometimes. It all depends on my emotional state.

Why are INxp's weary of new possibilities? They don't want to overlook possibilities that are already inherent. Why change things when we haven't taken full advantage of what we have now?

I think that ties in with the "energy saving" characteristic of any introverted function.

INxp's are very aware of the interconnections of things. This is why it especially hurts the INTp that they cannot Fi, because they clearly see that all humanity is a wonderful whole, but they can't seem to participate in it. Also, it hurts the INFp that they cannot Ti, because they are very aware of the interrelation of the universe and that everything depends on everything else, but they cannot seem to quantify it.

Makes sense.

And no, you're not getting a conclusion, even though I am an INTp. :wink:


Your INTp friend,

Cone

[indigoroom]

but when I visualize the words and sentences, it seems to stick longer, ya know?

I'm using the same trick

[WVBRY]

Ni seems to be a perception function that records things (especially environments) implicitly in memory. This leads to the introverted intuitive having a more acute implicit memory than most other types. But one must remember, only sensory details seem to get recorded as memory is mostly visual. Non-visual details seem to escape the introverted intuitive as fast as they come, and this leads to them being poor listeners (I really sucked on the listening parts of those standardized tests, which really surprised all of my 'less-intelligent peers', who did quite well.) One thing about introverted irrational functions is that they seem to perceive the relationships between objects (or events for Ni.) If you were to take an INTp on vacation, he would be more apt to remember the negative aspects rather than the positive ones, and this leads to another trait of Ni.

Ni seems to 'expect' things to be preserved in an environment or process. So when something is upset, it hits the introverted intuitive with heavy force, so much that it can cause cognitive dissonance (and this may be why INTps are so skeptical, because a change of state 'hurts' more or causes more cognitive dissonance in the INTp than in any other type.) So, Ni is very astute in noticing changes and especially absences in environments or processes.

Now about the time thing: I think perhaps Ni can predict things because of implicit memories that it records of similar things, so it can interpolate information to form a proposed event. It's a memory thing, mixed with intelligence, I guess. To predict things, I actually have to consciously try; it's not something that happens automatically (although sometimes it does.)

Like I said before, it seems to be an 'Intuition of Change', or something like that. It can be negative sometimes, it can be positive sometimes. It all depends on my emotional state.

I agree with all of this.

[Cone]

Well, of course. :wink:

But seriously, thank you.

[Waddlesworth]

Yeah, you are probably right.

I have a tendency to redefine everything into terms and concepts that I can actually understand. Many times I come up with something that is original, but not exactly related to what I started out with.

I didn't mean to attack, I've used the shock face before so I know it isn't really a friendly thing. it just seems to me that there is alot of over-thinking on these forums but there is also an obvious lack of a mastery of the fundamentals. I am no more innocent than anyone else in these matters, its just that lately the system, if it can be called that, is starting to look very ugly. everyone is going "oh, i think we should re-name this, i think we should re-name that". Everyone wants to be a Socionist, but you can't be a "Socionist" unless you appreciate and grasp its foundation.

I'm just now beginning to see how confusing it must seem to people that are new to the system. There is alot of information we don't have, but there is also alot of information out there I don't see quoted too much. The International Socionics Institute has a good page with alot of helpful guidance on such things, but I see that page- probably the most credible one out there- quoted least of all be people on this forum. If the international socionics institute says it's called intuition of time, its called Intuition of time. Basically, there no sense building a foundation on crooked pillars, is all I'm saying. This stuff is starting to look really ugly to me. Just alot of long drawn out speculation that could easily be filled by a simple chart that is already out there. Let's face it, none of us are experts and if anyone tries to pretend they are on such matters the real experts are going to see right through that.

look at the ISI site, it can easily be deduced that each funtion is derived out of four fundamental fources-

Time (Extraverted= Intuition, Introverted = Time)
Space (Extraverted= Force, Introverted=Sense)
Matter (Extraverted= Profit, Introverted=Logic)
Energy ( Extraverted= Emotion, Introverted=Relations)

these four forces manifest themselves inwardly and outwardly- its on the page, look for it and read it. There is a plethora of information there, probably the most Socionics info out there is on that page.

Think specific to general, not general to specific. With this method you start at one point, Socionics, and work your way through it.

Maybe it may seem that i'm being overly conservative, its just that there is obviously a system that works, the names of the functions, as is said on the site, are based upon common agreement.

[Waddlesworth]

I wrongfully assumed everyone had stumbled on to the page at some point. I guess it is a little bit disguised. It isn't the prettiest page but it has alot of text. They seem to have the most technical information on Socionics. Alot of good terminology and potential applications for it as well.


Here is the articles section. You'll find what I referred to in there somewhere.

http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/esocpubl.html#top

[Waddlesworth]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. I speak more in generalities when I make posts sometimes. So when I put those two posts I assumed something completely different from what the subject was all about. As a matter of fact there is a good chance i didn't read the post at all, i just glazed through every post together and got a general idea of the discussion. I usually do this judging from other posts and other subjects going on at the time, et cetera.

Sometimes I suppose I stereotype the posts and just assume what others are saying without reading it- perhaps a form of Ni? In there perhaps is a good part of the answer to this Ni question.

[CuriousSoul]

Whoever understands socionics better than us dubbed Ni "intuition of time". they saw a connection that obviously some of us aren't seeing. Its something that probably takes alot of contemplation and imagination.
I agree it is the one description that sorta looks funny, but maybe thats because the western concept of time might be different or something. But really, we don't know a tenth of what some real experts out there know. I see an "Attack" approach that some people make at the system, rather than letting themselves understand the system. I dont see how real progress can be made attacking the fundamentals. Its like a first grader attacking the meaning of the word "S".

We do question an awful lot of things, and perhaps I especially have been rather attacking at times, but it does start to feel kind of frustrating when there do not seem to be any answers available however hard one tries to look for them... I have read the International Socionics Institute pages and even quoted some of the articles, especially the modelling of the intertype relations was quite illustrating. Thank you for the link, and it is also quite true that this site could contain a better beginner's introduction to socionics. It is easy to forget that there are always new people coming and the Forum may look pretty chaotic.

But what is the meaning of the word, or the letter "S"? For I know we are all beginners and perhaps we should not be questioning the fundamentals, but all knowledge is ultimately interconnected and the sooner we learn to see how one thing follows from another and not just arbitrarily dictated by a higher authority figure, the greater our respect for teachers and learning in general shall be. I have been fortunate enough to grow up in a family and largely also in a culture where there were no dumb questions, and intellectual curiousity was encouraged. I remember when as a child my dad used to boldly claim to me and my sister that he knows everything, and challenged us to think of a question he could not answer. As we were quite small our ability to evaluate the answers was not always well developed, but it was a rare occasion when we managed to catch him off guard. Or how my primary school teacher could decide to dedicate a lesson to discussing the existence of Snowmen in the Himalayas. We did not discover the answer, but I shall never forget the lesson and still have fond memories of that elderly female teacher. Yes, many questions may seem like "attacking the fundamentals" at first, but why not take the chance to learn something new and do your best to contemplate even a question that appears irrelevant or even disrespectful?

The Origin of the Alphabet
The original alphabet was developed by a Semitic people living in or near Egypt.* They based it on the idea developed by the Egyptians, but used their own specific symbols. It was quickly adopted by their neighbors and relatives to the east and north, the Canaanites, the Hebrews, and the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians spread their alphabet to other people of the Near East and Asia Minor, as well as to the Arabs, the Greeks, and the Etruscans, and as far west as present day Spain. The letters and names on the left are the ones used by the Phoenicians. The letters on the right are possible earlier versions. If you don't recognize the letters, keep in mind that they have since been reversed (since the Phoenicians wrote from right to left) and often turned on their sides!

* Until recently, it was believed that these people lived in the Sinai desert and began using their alphabet in the 1700's bc. In 1998, archeologist John Darnell discovered rock carvings in southern Egypt's "Valley of Horrors" that push back the origin of the alphabet to the 1900's bc or even earlier. Details suggest that the inventors were Semitic people working in Egypt, who thereafter passed the idea on to their relatives further east.

Shin, the tooth, may have originally represented a bow. Although it was first pronounced sh, the Greeks used it sideways for sigma (Σ). The Romans rounded it to make S.
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/alphabet.html

Can you not see the joy of the schoolboy who learns that the origin of the letter S may lie 4000 thousand years in the past among a little known people in Southern Egypt who may have drawn a picture of a bow as their symbol: Perhaps in their language the word bow began with the sound S - or maybe there was another possibly more mystical reason that we can no longer reconstruct? There are always many more good questions than answers, but what a world of difference it can make for a curious little first-grader to get a thoughtful answer even to a seemingly silly question, rather than to be flatly told to just listen to the teacher and not to disturb him with stupid questions.

Or if letters stand for sounds in the spoken language why is there only one letter S? For the Enligh language actually contains many different S sounds, Finnish again only one. And when you are not used to hearing the difference between slightly different sounds pronouncing English words can be quite tricky. The difference between: please, sit down and please, shit down can be very confusing for a non-native speaker - as I discovered to my embarassment and amusement. And yet in socionics we are all learning a foreign language, language whose alphabet is even further removed from our everyday language than the difference between Finnish and English. How do we tell the functions apart? What about the types? It is hard and there is not much detailed guidance available.

The one question that has been haunting us more than any other is the issue of correct typing. I had a dream that it would be possible to type people by verbally analyzing them, but it seems that this dream was just too unrealistic. Ideally I was hoping we could somehow come up with a clear set of formal rules on how to tell the differences between the types, but it seems to be just too hard... At the very least I am not able to do it alone and no one else has yet taken the challenge. Do not hesitate to criticize me, I do not want to win arguements but to arrive at the correct type. It would be good to know what things we should pay attention to and what is irrelevant for determining socionics types.

Since the analytical method of typing does not seem to work too well, what we are left with are the tests, which do work in the sense that they always give you an answer, but unfortunately there is then no method to properly verify the test result - except perhaps Visual Identification, yet this method too appears to be highly controversial and I guess none of us really knows enough to use it reliably.

It just starts to seem to me that we may gradually run out of ideas, unless we can think of some more reliable methods of typing. This may be partly also a conflict of Quadra Values vs for I would always like to have the definitive logical proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that socionics is, at least at this stage, not capable of providing. Or perhaps it is just my beginner's ignorance, but there are so many theories that seem to be little more than castles built on air, and I think we should all try to think of more practical demonstrations on how to apply the models in real life cases. It often seems to me that similar traits and behavior can be explained in countless different ways, and the more I learn the less I seem to understand - perhaps then, if all else fails, I shall just have to wait a decade or two until socionics reaches the level of maturity the 4th quadra requires. :wink:

elimination of defects and bringing to perfection, mass realization of ready product, technology
http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/et/buklet.html#top

[Waddlesworth]

My reference to the question of the meaning of the letter "S" was just sorta thrown in there. I chose it at random. I meant it more in terms of "learn the whole alphabet and how to write before you start asking questions on the meaning of the language" Obviously its healthy to ask questions. I suppose here is proof of your supervision over me, and in many shades of meaning I stand corrected. Questions are healthy in many forms, I agree.

I just noticed on a few posts that some people were talking about changing function names and proceeded to go back and forth about what the better was and other stuff. I should have made this argument there instead of assuming the same thing was going on here. I don't want to point fingers at anyone, but I will say this:

There is no real forum or resource for people to communicate about Socionics in English. For a beginner to come on to this site, with little understanding of the fundamentals, it may confuse them. I'm certain that some people think that we are actually professional Socionists. After all, we seem to talk the talk, right? Its attached to a well organized and professional looking page, as well, so I can see someone feeling fooled by alot of technical jargon and so forth. This can turn into a form of disinformation that may lead to discrediting the science for alot of people.

I don't see any flaws in what I'm saying. I just think people should be more careful with their wording sometimes. That's all.

[CuriousSoul]

There is no real forum or resource for people to communicate about Socionics in English. For a beginner to come on to this site, with little understanding of the fundamentals, it may confuse them. I'm certain that some people think that we are actually professional Socionists. After all, we seem to talk the talk, right? Its attached to a well organized and professional looking page, as well, so I can see someone feeling fooled by alot of technical jargon and so forth. This can turn into a form of disinformation that may lead to discrediting the science for alot of people.

This is a valid point. Nowhere is it claimed that any of us would have any qualifications in this field, but the risk of misunderstanding is real. The site can indeed create the wrong impression, though I should believe that at least so far we have made a point of reminding people that we are all just a bunch of amateurs. I think it would be sensible to have an Announcement at the Forum clarifying the amateur nature of this site and Forum. I suppose it should be the task of the Site Administrator to formulate this message.

My reference to the question of the meaning of the letter "S" was just sorta thrown in there. I chose it at random. I meant it more in terms of "learn the whole alphabet and how to write before you start asking questions on the meaning of the language" Obviously its healthy to ask questions. I suppose here is proof of your supervision over me, and in many shades of meaning I stand corrected. Questions are healthy in many forms, I agree.

But equally well I could have responded to any other example. The point stands. Questioning is good and the progress of science is built on constantly questioning every previous claim. Our attemps at empirical approach have undoubtedly been rather primitive but I believe the ideal is correct: socionics should be able to withstand the heavy hand of empirical criticism. Am I the only one who would like to see a much more experimental, perhaps even downright behavioristic approach to socionics? Of course I may be excessively skeptical since having had to change my own type I can see the many pitfalls of the introspective method all too well - or perhaps you are right and we are just prone to err when there is so little information easily available.

[Catholic Schoolboy]

INxp's are very aware of the interconnections of things. This is why it especially hurts the INTp that they cannot Fi, because they clearly see that all humanity is a wonderful whole, but they can't seem to participate in it. Also, it hurts the INFp that they cannot Ti, because they are very aware of the interrelation of the universe and that everything depends on everything else, but they cannot seem to quantify it.

God that was a rather clever way of putting it, I often run about professing my love for humanity but people get confused that I seem to have trouble participating in the most simplistic aspects of it, it frustrating to say the very least.

Anyway I thought this was an amusing thread. I find the relation of Ni and time quite interesting. So I think that we should discus the perception of it.

I’m habitually saying that I don’t have enough time, that I will never get enough done in the years allotted to me. If anything can depress me it is the passing of tine, I seem to live in the past and think in the future at the same time. I use time as a defense mechanism and a tool for self preservation. Building models of human reaction from the past to change myself in the present. And yet I don’t like the fact that I change. It seems to be an instinctive thing done out of necessity rather than a planed action.

I see time as something that happens in layers. I can ripple through it like a book. Not only my own time but models of time I have built through the reading of history books. I think this is in large part where my intuition comes from despite the fact that it is not acknowledged as the source. Ni types seem to learn their lessons well. :wink:

Discus.

[Creepy-]

INxp's are very aware of the interconnections of things. This is why it especially hurts the INTp that they cannot Fi, because they clearly see that all humanity is a wonderful whole, but they can't seem to participate in it. Also, it hurts the INFp that they cannot Ti, because they are very aware of the interrelation of the universe and that everything depends on everything else, but they cannot seem to quantify it.

I like the way that was said. It describes my constant angst very, very well...

[Creepy-]

I have these spells, I lose a few seconds of my life. When I am back in the world and aware of the loss, it is very painful. To me even 1 second is an infinitely long time. That I lose 10-20 seconds every now and again fills me with a kind of fatalistic despair.

I have more say, I just need time to find the words.

Time, time, time.... I can see why is intuition of time but it is very hard to describe it.

[Cone]

Haha, everyone's getting emo over Ni.

Now, I have two questions:

What if emotions are in reality difficult to come by? Like the thinker cannot feel because there is nothing to feel, and perhaps the feeler lies to himself? People always call ****** an evil man for killing those six million Jews. Then they expect me to feel sadness for those victims. What, lie to myself because one SHOULD feel sadness? I find myself accusing people of fake emotions plenty enough.

Also, what if type is fake and we only perceive type due to the characterizing labels we attach to others and ourselves? I'm not sure I should believe "INTps can't Fi, INFps can't Ti". It seems easy to understand how this applies to us, but how much does it really?

[Creepy-]

I agree with you about emotion, Cone. I have said the same thing on another occasion, I think.

[Catholic Schoolboy]

Haha, everyone's getting emo over Ni.

Ni is emo. There is no point in fighting it.

What if emotions are in reality difficult to come by? Like the thinker cannot feel because there is nothing to feel, and perhaps the feeler lies to himself? People always call ****** an evil man for killing those six million Jews. Then they expect me to feel sadness for those victims. What, lie to myself because one SHOULD feel sadness? I find myself accusing people of fake emotions plenty enough.

It's not asking you to feel sadness Cone it is asking for you to show ethics. Kim and I were talking about this the other day.

"The sins of our Fathers will become our own."

No, you should now bawl and moan and lie on the floor and cry you should simply acknowledge that what happened was very real and watch so that it does not happen again. But this is pointless of course because most people don’t do this. Emotions might not be real, but ethics are.

Also, what if type is fake and we only perceive type due to the characterizing labels we attach to others and ourselves? I'm not sure I should believe "INTps can't Fi, INFps can't Ti". It seems easy to understand how this applies to us, but how much does it really?

Stereotypes, I just showed Fi.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Anyone care to tell me why Jung thought Ni was the collectives of archetypes passed down internally? He really lost any credibility with me when I read that one. I thought he was on crack

[Creepy-pokeball]

"The Introverted Intuition Type
Introverted intuition is directed inward to the contents of the unconscious. It attempts to fathom internal events by relating them to universal psychological processes or to other archetypal images. Consequently it generally has a mythical, symbolic or prophetic quality.

According to Jung, the introverted intuition type can be either an artist, seer or crank. Such a person has a visionary ideal that reveals strange, mysterious things. These are enigmatic, 'unearthly' people who stand aloof from ordinary society. They have little interest in explaining or rationalizing their personal vision, but are content merely to proclaim it. Partly as a result of this, they are often misunderstood. Although the vision of the artist among this type generally remains on the purely perceptual level, mystical dreamers or cranks may become caught up in theirs. The person's life then becomes symbolic, taking on the nature of a Great Work, mission or spiritual-moral quest. If neurotic, repressed sensation may express itself in primitive, instinctual ways and, like their extraverted counterparts, introverted intuitives often suffer from hypochondria and compulsions."

"
The remarkable indifference of the extraverted intuitive in respect to outer objects is shared by the introverted intuitive in relation to the inner objects. Just as the extraverted intuitive is continually scenting out new [p. 507] possibilities, which he pursues with an equal unconcern both for his own welfare and for that of others, pressing on quite heedless of human considerations, tearing down what has only just been established in his everlasting search for change, so the introverted intuitive moves from image to image, chasing after every possibility in the teeming womb of the unconscious, without establishing any connection between the phenomenon and himself. Just as the world can never become a moral problem for the man who merely senses it, so the world of images is never a moral problem to the intuitive. To the one just as much as to the other, it is an ae[]sthenic problem, a question of perception, a 'sensation'. In this way, the consciousness of his own bodily existence fades from the introverted intuitive's view, as does its effect upon others. The extraverted standpoint would say of him: 'Reality has no existence for him; he gives himself up to fruitless phantasies'. A perception of the unconscious images, produced in such inexhaustible abundance by the creative energy of life, is of course fruitless from the standpoint of immediate utility. But, since these images represent possible ways of viewing life, which in given circumstances have the power to provide a new energic potential, this function, which to the outer world is the strangest of all, is as indispensable to the total psychic economy as is the corresponding human type to the psychic life of a people. Had this type not existed, there would have been no prophets in Israel.

Introverted intuition apprehends the images which arise from the a priori, i.e. the inherited foundations of the unconscious mind. These archetypes, whose innermost nature is inaccessible to experience, represent the precipitate of psychic functioning of the whole ancestral line, i.e. the heaped-up, or pooled, experiences of organic existence in general, a million times repeated, and condensed into types. Hence, in these archetypes all experiences are [p. 508] represented which since primeval time have happened on this planet. Their archetypal distinctness is the more marked, the more frequently and intensely they have been experienced. The archetype would be -- to borrow from Kant -- the noumenon of the image which intuition perceives and, in perceiving, creates.

Since the unconscious is not just something that lies there, like a psychic caput mortuum, but is something that coexists and experiences inner transformations which are inherently related to general events, introverted intuition, through its perception of inner processes, gives certain data which may possess supreme importance for the comprehension of general occurrences: it can even foresee new possibilities in more or less clear outline, as well as the event which later actually transpires. Its prophetic prevision is to be explained from its relation to the archetypes which represent the law-determined course of all experienceable things. "

[universal]

Intuition of Time

Intuition of time could be a sense of an orientation. A sense of an orientation based on a time and a place which form my consciousness. Time being a consideration and place being a location. So intuition of time is in my view being conscious of an orientation in a time and a place.

It's not asking you to feel sadness Cone it is asking for you to show ethics. Kim and I were talking about this the other day.

ethics overcome power

[tcaudilllg]

I finally understand Jung, and I finally understand how the hell to read this stuff.

"The Introverted Intuition Type
Introverted intuition is directed inward to the contents of the unconscious. It attempts to fathom internal events by relating them to universal psychological processes or to other archetypal images. Consequently it generally has a mythical, symbolic or prophetic quality.

According to Jung, the introverted intuition type can be either an artist, seer or crank. Such a person has a visionary ideal that reveals strange, mysterious things. These are enigmatic, 'unearthly' people who stand aloof from ordinary society. They have little interest in explaining or rationalizing their personal vision, but are content merely to proclaim it. Partly as a result of this, they are often misunderstood. Although the vision of the artist among this type generally remains on the purely perceptual level, mystical dreamers or cranks may become caught up in theirs. The person's life then becomes symbolic, taking on the nature of a Great Work, mission or spiritual-moral quest. If neurotic, repressed sensation may express itself in primitive, instinctual ways and, like their extraverted counterparts, introverted intuitives often suffer from hypochondria and compulsions."

"
The remarkable indifference of the extraverted intuitive in respect to outer objects is shared by the introverted intuitive in relation to the inner objects. Just as the extraverted intuitive is continually scenting out new [p. 507] possibilities, which he pursues with an equal unconcern both for his own welfare and for that of others, pressing on quite heedless of human considerations, tearing down what has only just been established in his everlasting search for change, so the introverted intuitive moves from image to image, chasing after every possibility in the teeming womb of the unconscious, without establishing any connection between the phenomenon and himself. Just as the world can never become a moral problem for the man who merely senses it, so the world of images is never a moral problem to the intuitive. To the one just as much as to the other, it is an ae[]sthenic problem, a question of perception, a 'sensation'. In this way, the consciousness of his own bodily existence fades from the introverted intuitive's view, as does its effect upon others. The extraverted standpoint would say of him: 'Reality has no existence for him; he gives himself up to fruitless phantasies'. A perception of the unconscious images, produced in such inexhaustible abundance by the creative energy of life, is of course fruitless from the standpoint of immediate utility. But, since these images represent possible ways of viewing life, which in given circumstances have the power to provide a new energic potential, this function, which to the outer world is the strangest of all, is as indispensable to the total psychic economy as is the corresponding human type to the psychic life of a people. Had this type not existed, there would have been no prophets in Israel.

Introverted intuition apprehends the images which arise from the a priori, i.e. the inherited foundations of the unconscious mind. These archetypes, whose innermost nature is inaccessible to experience, represent the precipitate of psychic functioning of the whole ancestral line, i.e. the heaped-up, or pooled, experiences of organic existence in general, a million times repeated, and condensed into types. Hence, in these archetypes all experiences are [p. 508] represented which since primeval time have happened on this planet. Their archetypal distinctness is the more marked, the more frequently and intensely they have been experienced. The archetype would be -- to borrow from Kant -- the noumenon of the image which intuition perceives and, in perceiving, creates.

Since the unconscious is not just something that lies there, like a psychic caput mortuum, but is something that coexists and experiences inner transformations which are inherently related to general events, introverted intuition, through its perception of inner processes, gives certain data which may possess supreme importance for the comprehension of general occurrences: it can even foresee new possibilities in more or less clear outline, as well as the event which later actually transpires. Its prophetic prevision is to be explained from its relation to the archetypes which represent the law-determined course of all experienceable things. "

Having made an aquaintence of an introverted intuitive (he's not actually referring to INTPs nor INFPs here; he's referring to the INxx crosstype), I can say that they are very intelligent and indeed, of a prophetic nature. The one I am aquainted with desires nothing less than to lay the theoretical foundation for Heaven itself. A physical heaven. I'm not kidding. He's going to college right now to research how to do it. Taking physics courses. He's a genius by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course, he's kinda crazy. Jung didn't have a good view of these types, considering that he was terrified of psychosis.

Ah if only the Jung board was still up, I'd throw the entire Jung community for a loop.

[Creepy-pokeball]

"Jung didn't have a good view of these types, considering that he was terrified of psychosis. " -TC

He should have been lol.

[Creepy-]

I am not the only INxp that thinks psychosis sounds like fun...

[Creepy-]

Every INTp I've known had plenty of Fi.

I think perhaps confidence is more a point than "how much" you have or whether you show it or not.

My begs for positive feedback, if I don't get it I tend to revert to being all angsty about my supposed "weakness".

(edit: typo)

[Creepy-]

Yeah, people that are more confident in a given function will be said to "have more of it." But obviously a person's confidence in that function does not determine how developed that function truly is. Someone can have a lot of confidence in their Ti, but still be a totally pathetic shithead about it.

I could see that in a person with Ti suggestive function. I thought the key point of the PoLR/estimative function was that they were especially sensitive to criiticism?

[Creepy-]

I thought we were talking about hidden agenda? What with INTp and INFp ?

[Cone]

Yeah, people that are more confident in a given function will be said to "have more of it." But obviously a person's confidence in that function does not determine how developed that function truly is. Someone can have a lot of confidence in their Ti, but still be a totally pathetic shithead about it.

I could see that in a person with Ti suggestive function. I thought the key point of the PoLR/estimative function was that they were especially sensitive to criiticism?

What about INTps? Socionics states that we are especially sensitive to all kinds of criticism.

[Creepy-]

What about INTps? Socionics states that we are especially sensitive to all kinds of criticism.

I assume it would be relative.