Politics

[tcaudilllg]

Is politics type related?

My view is that it isn't. What's yours?

[Absurd]

Hard left.

[DirectorAbbie]

World's Smallest Political Quiz

[Jarno]

I'm rightwing. Leftwings are naieve.

[Absurd]

I'm rightwing. Leftwings are naieve.

In what ?

[Jarno]

In what ?

they are to soft.

they like lower punishments, more talking, more money to the people who are sick and can't work.

These are all good things, but they can be exaggarated. In our country it has gone that way. I once opened a thread about women with one child don't have to work in our country and they get 1800 euro (2500 dollar) for free every month. (I work 160 hours per month and earn less!)

It probably because these 'good' measurements are easyer to accept by politics while taking money away from these 'poor' people would seem like a cruel measurement. But that's where the right wing comes in handy, they have no problems with these seemingly cruel measurements which are in fact no less then reasonable.

[Krig the Viking]

Is politics type related?

My view is that it isn't. What's yours?

I think political philosophies can be typed, in the same way nations can be typed, but I think that a person's personality type does not have as big of an effect on his political beliefs as does his surroundings and upbringing and general way of life.

[ArchonAlarion]

[DirectorAbbie]

Anarchist!

[silverchris9]

Generally center, leaning conservative. Much more situation related than type related. For instance, one might expect Se-egos to be pro big government, insofar as Se-egos are the dictator stereotypes, but then Se-egos are also fiercely protective of their control over themselves as opposed to government control over themselves, so they also have a potential motive for being libertarian. If anything, deltas tend to be more center, while betas tend to be more extreme with whatever they are.

[Jarno]

For instance, one might expect Se-egos to be pro big government, insofar as Se-egos are the dictator stereotypes, but then Se-egos are also fiercely protective of their control over themselves as opposed to government control over themselves, so they also have a potential motive for being libertarian.

nah Se types like to make money, they're more likely to be against a big government and more of a laissee faire economy, where the money can be made.

[tcaudilllg]

Whoa. I thought you guys had a better grip on socionics than this. And people.

If you hold on to these beliefs, your application of socionics will be less than suspect... it will be garbage.

Did you just knee-jerk react on this, or did you bother to actually discuss people's views with them?

nations can be typed

They cannot. That's bullocks.

[JohnDo]

Politics are definitely type related, at least there is a tendency. Alphas and Deltas are rather left-wing, Betas and Gammas are rather right-wing.


But it also depends on DCNH subtypes:

Dominant subtypes: right-wing
Creative subtypes: liberal
Normalizing subtypes: center
Harmonizing subtypes: left-wing

[thePirate]

johndo no offense but I think I hate you

[silverchris9]

johndo no offense but I think I hate you

[Krig the Viking]

They cannot. That's bullocks.

If you have any evidence or reasoning to back up that assertion, I'd be happy to consider it. However, everything I've seen so far, from my own observations to the opinions of most mainstream socionists whose opinion on the subject I have read about, indicates that groups of people such as nations, regions, clubs, etc., can be assigned types based on their consistent values and behavioural tendencies.

[tcaudilllg]

If you have any evidence or reasoning to back up that assertion, I'd be happy to consider it. However, everything I've seen so far, from my own observations to the opinions of most mainstream socionists whose opinion on the subject I have read about, indicates that groups of people such as nations, regions, clubs, etc., can be assigned types based on their consistent values and behavioural tendencies.

Well considering that type deals only with the creation of knowledge, and not its application, I don't think there is any merit to those claims.

[Jarno]

But it also depends on DCNH subtypes:

Dominant subtypes: right-wing
Creative subtypes: liberal
Normalizing subtypes: center
Harmonizing subtypes: left-wing

this kind of speculation is not a good advertisment for the credibility of your subtype system.

[Absurd]

they are to soft.

they like lower punishments, more talking, more money to the people who are sick and can't work.

These are all good things, but they can be exaggarated. In our country it has gone that way. I once opened a thread about women with one child don't have to work in our country and they get 1800 euro (2500 dollar) for free every month. (I work 160 hours per month and earn less!)

It probably because these 'good' measurements are easyer to accept by politics while taking money away from these 'poor' people would seem like a cruel measurement. But that's where the right wing comes in handy, they have no problems with these seemingly cruel measurements which are in fact no less then reasonable.

I don't know if I am to laugh or cry after reading this. I mean:

1) discussing politics on a bloody socionics forum (thank tcaudilllg),

2) it's crystal clear, you don't know what are you talking about (assuming it was directed at me). Funny thing is, I know where are you making a mistake.

[Krig the Viking]

Well considering that type deals only with the creation of knowledge, and not its application, I don't think there is any merit to those claims.

Ah, I can see that we're approaching the subject with radically different underlying assumptions. We'll have to agree to disagree, then, for now.

But it also depends on DCNH subtypes:

Dominant subtypes: right-wing
Creative subtypes: liberal
Normalizing subtypes: center
Harmonizing subtypes: left-wing

this kind of speculation is not a good advertisment for the credibility of your subtype system.

As the resident guy-who-actually-knows-what-he's-talking-about when it comes to DCNH, please don't let JohnDo's poorly-substantiated personal theories colour your opinion of actual DCNH.

[JohnDo]

this kind of speculation is not a good advertisment for the credibility of your subtype system.

It is not speculation but my observation. But you can also explain it theoretically:

dominant subtype: wants to lead people, make them work (conservative)
creative subtype: wants have good conditions for creative research (liberal)
normalizing subtype: wants to do his job in stable conditions (center)
harmonizing subtype: wants to help people who are in need (left-wing)

So the correlation between DCNH and politics is fuckin obvious. It also corresponds with my observations...

As the resident guy-who-actually-knows-what-he's-talking-about when it comes to DCNH, please don't let JohnDo's poorly-substantiated personal theories colour your opinion of actual DCNH.

So what are your observations? No correlation?! It should be obvious that a harmonizer (who wants to help people) is rather left-wing or that a dominator (who wants to make people work) is rather right-wing. Only a tendency, of course...

[Jarno]

Funny thing is, I know where are you making a mistake.

oke that's good. Could you explain that, because I like to learn that. Since I never heard/seen any clear reasons where my reasoning went wrong.

It's not that I think leftwing is bad, it's very good, I just think they don't take into account the bad motives of people, and they don't reward hard working people in the right ratio. As in my example was clear.

[tcaudilllg]

Type does deal with the creation of applications, but I consider those a form of knowledge. Actual is always about skill, which has been shown in studies not to correlate to type. (unless you're thinking of idea creation as a skill, which I'm not because it can't be learned).

I'm seeing that a discussion of subtype in the context of the political type theory is in order.

[Absurd]

oke that's good. Could you explain that, because I like to learn that. Since I never heard/seen any clear reasons where my reasoning went wrong.

Nothing wrong with your reasoning, you just omitted some details there, crucial details. No offense, but that's no surprise to me. You're not the first and not the last.

It's not that I think leftwing is bad, it's very good, I just think they don't take into account the bad motives of people, and they don't reward hard working people in the right ratio. As in my example was clear.

Heh, I'm not here to tell you or anyone else, whether it is bad or good. You make your own choices. Yes, the example was perfect. A perfect example of a liberal or social democratic government/society, and I assure you, I'm nowhere close to either.

[ArchonAlarion]

I do not think nations or broad political categories can be typed.

The most you can do is type political movements.

Ayn Rand's objectivist movement was very Beta, but David Friedman's was Delta (Both being pro capitalist, individualist, minarchist, etc).

You could say Nazi Germany was Beta, but that's only because of the enormous cultural control ****** instituted.

The only part of a nation you can type is the crest of its waves of celebrities and rulers (if that makes sense).

[Krig the Viking]

It is not speculation but my observation. But you can also explain it theoretically:

dominant subtype: wants to lead people, make them work (conservative)
creative subtype: wants have good conditions for creative research (liberal)
normalizing subtype: wants to do his job in stable conditions (center)
harmonizing subtype: wants to help people who are in need (left-wing)

So the correlation between DCNH and politics is fuckin obvious. It also corresponds with my observations...

So what are your observations? No correlation?! It should be obvious that a harmonizer (who wants to help people) is rather left-wing or that a dominator (who wants to make people work) is rather right-wing. Only a tendency, of course...

Your logic is so full of non-sequiturs that it is barely comprehensible. Dominant tries to lead people and order them around in pursuit of a goal, yes. But that goal can just as easily be a liberal one as a conservative one. Or do you think that there are no Dominant Communists? Stalin was Harmonizing or something?

Likewise, Harmonizing, first of all, is not primarily concerned with "helping those in need", but moreso with creating and maintaining a harmonious environment. If helping those in need will achieve that, they'll do it. If those in need are violent or disruptive, then running away and going home will also achieve that goal of harmonious surroundings. Furthermore, the idea that only left-wing types are concerned with "helping people in need" is ridiculous to the point of absurdity. All decent people want to help those in need; left-wing and right-wing types simply disagree on the best way to go about that.

[Jarno]

Nothing wrong with your reasoning, you just omitted some details there, crucial details. No offense, but that's no surprise to me. You're not the first and not the last.



Heh, I'm not here to tell you or anyone else, whether it is bad or good. You make your own choices. Yes, the example was perfect. A perfect example of a liberal or social democratic government/society, and I assure you, I'm nowhere close to either.

so you are saying you have seen my flaw but you just don't say what the flaw is even when I directly ask you for it.

Well I know the winning numbers of the lottery of next month, but I just don't like to participate in the lottery, so I won't use them.

[Absurd]

so you are saying you have seen my flaw but you just don't say what flaw it is.

Well I know the winning numbers of the lottery of next month, but I just don't like to participate in the lottery, so I won't use them.

A perfect example of a liberal or social democratic government/society, and I assure you, I'm nowhere close to either.

Mistake lies in differentiating between systems, bare in mind some of them are only socialist in wording.

EDIT: I don't know how "deep" are you into it which means I cannot proceed further without you making the first move. It is quite hard without that kind of knowledge about your opponent (?). It would take just too long.

[Brentano]

This is where I normally stand on political issues.



http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

[Crispy]

This goes for me too RON PAUL!

[1981slater]

Alpha quadra: socialism
Beta quadra: dictatorship
Gamma quadra: conservativism
Delta quadra: high decentralized government

People happy with their sexual life: live and let live approach to life

[Jarno]

It would take just too long.

oke no problem. we leave it at this.

[thePirate]

Secularism all the way. Sex is also good (if not for the Secular Party I'd be voting for the Sex Party, and not because of the name I assure you).

The rest is less important to me right now but I guess I'd be libertarian, somewhat left-wing.

sex party u sayyy

[Gilly]

I just don't give a fuck.

[JohnDo]

Dominant tries to lead people and order them around in pursuit of a goal, yes. But that goal can just as easily be a liberal one as a conservative one. Or do you think that there are no Dominant Communists? Stalin was Harmonizing or something?

Stalin is a very special case because he called himself a leninist whereas I see the killing of his comrades as a counter-revolution. I wouldn't call him a communist but a fascist who called himself a communist. In my opinion he was D-LSE like Dick Cheney.
All I wanted to say is that there is certainly a tendency. Not all harmonizers will be left-wing (but pobably most), not all dominators will be right-wing (but probably most).

Likewise, Harmonizing, first of all, is not primarily concerned with "helping those in need", but moreso with creating and maintaining a harmonious environment. If helping those in need will achieve that, they'll do it. If those in need are violent or disruptive, then running away and going home will also achieve that goal of harmonious surroundings.

I disagree. You probably have to type more harmonizers. Harmonizers of some main types would behave like you describe them, others wouldn't...

Furthermore, the idea that only left-wing types are concerned with "helping people in need" is ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

I never said that. I just wanted to state main drive of the DCNH subtypes:

dominant: to lead, enforce order and discipline. Often right-wing.
creative: to invent, create ideas. Often liberal.
normalizing: to work, implement ideas. Often conservative.
harmonizing: to help, restore peace. Often left-wing.

It doesn't fit in all cases. D-IEEs. are hardly ever right-wing I think. But there is certainly a correleation between subtype and politics...

[Crispy]

I never got the difference between liberal and left-wing (and conservative and right-wing.) What is it?

[JohnDo]

I never got the difference between liberal and left-wing (and conservative and right-wing.) What is it?

In America there is no difference. Republicans are right-wing/conservative. Democrats are left-wing/liberal.

In germany the situation is a bit more complicated because there are 5 relevant political parties:

right-wing:
CDU - conservative
FDP - right-liberal

left-wing:
SPD - social democratic
Grüne - left-liberal
Linke - socialist

FDP is not conservative but right-wing. Linke is not liberal but left-wing.

CDU corresponds to the American Republicans. FDP+Grüne correspond to the American Democrats. SPD and Linke do not exist in America because there are no social democrats or socialists there...

[ArchonAlarion]

In politics, left-wing, leftist and the Left are generally used to describe support for social change with a view towards creating a more egalitarian society. The terms Left and Right were coined during the French Revolution, referring to the seating arrangement in parliament; those who sat on the left generally supported the radical changes of the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization.[1] The concept of a political Left became more prominent after the June Days Uprising of 1848.

The term was applied to a number of revolutionary movements in Europe, especially socialism, anarchism[2] and communism. The term is also used to describe social democracy and social liberalism.[3] Roderick Long, an anarcho-capitalist professor, summarises left-wing politics as "concerns for worker empowerment, worry about plutocracy, concerns about feminism and various kinds of social equality".[4]


In politics, right-wing, rightist and the Right are generally used to describe support for preserving traditional social orders with a view favoring a more stratified society.[1][2][3][4] The terms Right and Left were coined during the French Revolution, referring to seating arrangements in parliament; those who sat on the right supported preserving the institutions of the Ancien Régime (the monarchy, the aristocracy and the established church).[5][6][7][8]

The concept of a political Right became more prominent after the second restoration of the French monarchy in 1815 with the Ultra-royalists. Today the term the Right is primarily used to refer to political groups that have a historical connection with the traditional Right, including conservatives, reactionaries, monarchists, aristocrats and theocrats. The term is also used to describe those who support free market capitalism, and some forms of nationalism.

Political spectrum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[munenori2]

For some reason I read Jake's post and pictured him as the Monopoly Man.

[ArchonAlarion]

This is because I'm a Te capitalist C INTp.