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    Is politics type related?

    My view is that it isn't. What's yours?
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 01-19-2010 at 11:10 PM.

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    Hard left.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    I'm rightwing. Leftwings are naieve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    I'm rightwing. Leftwings are naieve.
    In what ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    In what ?
    they are to soft.

    they like lower punishments, more talking, more money to the people who are sick and can't work.

    These are all good things, but they can be exaggarated. In our country it has gone that way. I once opened a thread about women with one child don't have to work in our country and they get 1800 euro (2500 dollar) for free every month. (I work 160 hours per month and earn less!)

    It probably because these 'good' measurements are easyer to accept by politics while taking money away from these 'poor' people would seem like a cruel measurement. But that's where the right wing comes in handy, they have no problems with these seemingly cruel measurements which are in fact no less then reasonable.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Is politics type related?

    My view is that it isn't. What's yours?
    I think political philosophies can be typed, in the same way nations can be typed, but I think that a person's personality type does not have as big of an effect on his political beliefs as does his surroundings and upbringing and general way of life.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    OPERATION POOPLAIR

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Anarchist!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Generally center, leaning conservative. Much more situation related than type related. For instance, one might expect Se-egos to be pro big government, insofar as Se-egos are the dictator stereotypes, but then Se-egos are also fiercely protective of their control over themselves as opposed to government control over themselves, so they also have a potential motive for being libertarian. If anything, deltas tend to be more center, while betas tend to be more extreme with whatever they are.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    For instance, one might expect Se-egos to be pro big government, insofar as Se-egos are the dictator stereotypes, but then Se-egos are also fiercely protective of their control over themselves as opposed to government control over themselves, so they also have a potential motive for being libertarian.
    nah Se types like to make money, they're more likely to be against a big government and more of a laissee faire economy, where the money can be made.

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    Whoa. I thought you guys had a better grip on socionics than this. And people.

    If you hold on to these beliefs, your application of socionics will be less than suspect... it will be garbage.

    Did you just knee-jerk react on this, or did you bother to actually discuss people's views with them?

    nations can be typed
    They cannot. That's bullocks.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 01-20-2010 at 01:15 AM.

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    Politics are definitely type related, at least there is a tendency. Alphas and Deltas are rather left-wing, Betas and Gammas are rather right-wing.


    But it also depends on DCNH subtypes:

    Dominant subtypes: right-wing
    Creative subtypes: liberal
    Normalizing subtypes: center
    Harmonizing subtypes: left-wing
    Last edited by JohnDo; 01-20-2010 at 06:34 AM.

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    johndo no offense but I think I hate you
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    johndo no offense but I think I hate you
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    They cannot. That's bullocks.
    If you have any evidence or reasoning to back up that assertion, I'd be happy to consider it. However, everything I've seen so far, from my own observations to the opinions of most mainstream socionists whose opinion on the subject I have read about, indicates that groups of people such as nations, regions, clubs, etc., can be assigned types based on their consistent values and behavioural tendencies.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    If you have any evidence or reasoning to back up that assertion, I'd be happy to consider it. However, everything I've seen so far, from my own observations to the opinions of most mainstream socionists whose opinion on the subject I have read about, indicates that groups of people such as nations, regions, clubs, etc., can be assigned types based on their consistent values and behavioural tendencies.
    Well considering that type deals only with the creation of knowledge, and not its application, I don't think there is any merit to those claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    But it also depends on DCNH subtypes:

    Dominant subtypes: right-wing
    Creative subtypes: liberal
    Normalizing subtypes: center
    Harmonizing subtypes: left-wing
    this kind of speculation is not a good advertisment for the credibility of your subtype system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    they are to soft.

    they like lower punishments, more talking, more money to the people who are sick and can't work.

    These are all good things, but they can be exaggarated. In our country it has gone that way. I once opened a thread about women with one child don't have to work in our country and they get 1800 euro (2500 dollar) for free every month. (I work 160 hours per month and earn less!)

    It probably because these 'good' measurements are easyer to accept by politics while taking money away from these 'poor' people would seem like a cruel measurement. But that's where the right wing comes in handy, they have no problems with these seemingly cruel measurements which are in fact no less then reasonable.
    I don't know if I am to laugh or cry after reading this. I mean:

    1) discussing politics on a bloody socionics forum (thank tcaudilllg),

    2) it's crystal clear, you don't know what are you talking about (assuming it was directed at me). Funny thing is, I know where are you making a mistake.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Well considering that type deals only with the creation of knowledge, and not its application, I don't think there is any merit to those claims.
    Ah, I can see that we're approaching the subject with radically different underlying assumptions. We'll have to agree to disagree, then, for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    But it also depends on DCNH subtypes:

    Dominant subtypes: right-wing
    Creative subtypes: liberal
    Normalizing subtypes: center
    Harmonizing subtypes: left-wing
    this kind of speculation is not a good advertisment for the credibility of your subtype system.
    As the resident guy-who-actually-knows-what-he's-talking-about when it comes to DCNH, please don't let JohnDo's poorly-substantiated personal theories colour your opinion of actual DCNH.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jarno
    this kind of speculation is not a good advertisment for the credibility of your subtype system.
    It is not speculation but my observation. But you can also explain it theoretically:

    dominant subtype: wants to lead people, make them work (conservative)
    creative subtype: wants have good conditions for creative research (liberal)
    normalizing subtype: wants to do his job in stable conditions (center)
    harmonizing subtype: wants to help people who are in need (left-wing)

    So the correlation between DCNH and politics is fuckin obvious. It also corresponds with my observations...

    Quote Originally Posted by KrigTheViking
    As the resident guy-who-actually-knows-what-he's-talking-about when it comes to DCNH, please don't let JohnDo's poorly-substantiated personal theories colour your opinion of actual DCNH.
    So what are your observations? No correlation?! It should be obvious that a harmonizer (who wants to help people) is rather left-wing or that a dominator (who wants to make people work) is rather right-wing. Only a tendency, of course...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Funny thing is, I know where are you making a mistake.
    oke that's good. Could you explain that, because I like to learn that. Since I never heard/seen any clear reasons where my reasoning went wrong.

    It's not that I think leftwing is bad, it's very good, I just think they don't take into account the bad motives of people, and they don't reward hard working people in the right ratio. As in my example was clear.

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    Type does deal with the creation of applications, but I consider those a form of knowledge. Actual is always about skill, which has been shown in studies not to correlate to type. (unless you're thinking of idea creation as a skill, which I'm not because it can't be learned).

    I'm seeing that a discussion of subtype in the context of the political type theory is in order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    oke that's good. Could you explain that, because I like to learn that. Since I never heard/seen any clear reasons where my reasoning went wrong.
    Nothing wrong with your reasoning, you just omitted some details there, crucial details. No offense, but that's no surprise to me. You're not the first and not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    It's not that I think leftwing is bad, it's very good, I just think they don't take into account the bad motives of people, and they don't reward hard working people in the right ratio. As in my example was clear.
    Heh, I'm not here to tell you or anyone else, whether it is bad or good. You make your own choices. Yes, the example was perfect. A perfect example of a liberal or social democratic government/society, and I assure you, I'm nowhere close to either.

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    I do not think nations or broad political categories can be typed.

    The most you can do is type political movements.

    Ayn Rand's objectivist movement was very Beta, but David Friedman's was Delta (Both being pro capitalist, individualist, minarchist, etc).

    You could say Nazi Germany was Beta, but that's only because of the enormous cultural control Hitler instituted.

    The only part of a nation you can type is the crest of its waves of celebrities and rulers (if that makes sense).
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    It is not speculation but my observation. But you can also explain it theoretically:

    dominant subtype: wants to lead people, make them work (conservative)
    creative subtype: wants have good conditions for creative research (liberal)
    normalizing subtype: wants to do his job in stable conditions (center)
    harmonizing subtype: wants to help people who are in need (left-wing)

    So the correlation between DCNH and politics is fuckin obvious. It also corresponds with my observations...

    So what are your observations? No correlation?! It should be obvious that a harmonizer (who wants to help people) is rather left-wing or that a dominator (who wants to make people work) is rather right-wing. Only a tendency, of course...
    Your logic is so full of non-sequiturs that it is barely comprehensible. Dominant tries to lead people and order them around in pursuit of a goal, yes. But that goal can just as easily be a liberal one as a conservative one. Or do you think that there are no Dominant Communists? Stalin was Harmonizing or something?

    Likewise, Harmonizing, first of all, is not primarily concerned with "helping those in need", but moreso with creating and maintaining a harmonious environment. If helping those in need will achieve that, they'll do it. If those in need are violent or disruptive, then running away and going home will also achieve that goal of harmonious surroundings. Furthermore, the idea that only left-wing types are concerned with "helping people in need" is ridiculous to the point of absurdity. All decent people want to help those in need; left-wing and right-wing types simply disagree on the best way to go about that.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Nothing wrong with your reasoning, you just omitted some details there, crucial details. No offense, but that's no surprise to me. You're not the first and not the last.



    Heh, I'm not here to tell you or anyone else, whether it is bad or good. You make your own choices. Yes, the example was perfect. A perfect example of a liberal or social democratic government/society, and I assure you, I'm nowhere close to either.
    so you are saying you have seen my flaw but you just don't say what the flaw is even when I directly ask you for it.

    Well I know the winning numbers of the lottery of next month, but I just don't like to participate in the lottery, so I won't use them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    so you are saying you have seen my flaw but you just don't say what flaw it is.

    Well I know the winning numbers of the lottery of next month, but I just don't like to participate in the lottery, so I won't use them.
    A perfect example of a liberal or social democratic government/society, and I assure you, I'm nowhere close to either.

    Mistake lies in differentiating between systems, bare in mind some of them are only socialist in wording.

    EDIT: I don't know how "deep" are you into it which means I cannot proceed further without you making the first move. It is quite hard without that kind of knowledge about your opponent (?). It would take just too long.

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    This is where I normally stand on political issues.



    http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    This goes for me too RON PAUL!
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Alpha quadra: socialism
    Beta quadra: dictatorship
    Gamma quadra: conservativism
    Delta quadra: high decentralized government

    People happy with their sexual life: live and let live approach to life
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
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    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
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    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    It would take just too long.
    oke no problem. we leave it at this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huginn View Post
    Secularism all the way. Sex is also good (if not for the Secular Party I'd be voting for the Sex Party, and not because of the name I assure you).

    The rest is less important to me right now but I guess I'd be libertarian, somewhat left-wing.
    sex party u sayyy
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    I just don't give a fuck.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Dominant tries to lead people and order them around in pursuit of a goal, yes. But that goal can just as easily be a liberal one as a conservative one. Or do you think that there are no Dominant Communists? Stalin was Harmonizing or something?
    Stalin is a very special case because he called himself a leninist whereas I see the killing of his comrades as a counter-revolution. I wouldn't call him a communist but a fascist who called himself a communist. In my opinion he was D-LSE like Dick Cheney.
    All I wanted to say is that there is certainly a tendency. Not all harmonizers will be left-wing (but pobably most), not all dominators will be right-wing (but probably most).

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Likewise, Harmonizing, first of all, is not primarily concerned with "helping those in need", but moreso with creating and maintaining a harmonious environment. If helping those in need will achieve that, they'll do it. If those in need are violent or disruptive, then running away and going home will also achieve that goal of harmonious surroundings.
    I disagree. You probably have to type more harmonizers. Harmonizers of some main types would behave like you describe them, others wouldn't...

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Furthermore, the idea that only left-wing types are concerned with "helping people in need" is ridiculous to the point of absurdity.
    I never said that. I just wanted to state main drive of the DCNH subtypes:

    dominant: to lead, enforce order and discipline. Often right-wing.
    creative: to invent, create ideas. Often liberal.
    normalizing: to work, implement ideas. Often conservative.
    harmonizing: to help, restore peace. Often left-wing.

    It doesn't fit in all cases. D-IEEs. are hardly ever right-wing I think. But there is certainly a correleation between subtype and politics...

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    I never got the difference between liberal and left-wing (and conservative and right-wing.) What is it?
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    I never got the difference between liberal and left-wing (and conservative and right-wing.) What is it?
    In America there is no difference. Republicans are right-wing/conservative. Democrats are left-wing/liberal.

    In germany the situation is a bit more complicated because there are 5 relevant political parties:

    right-wing:
    CDU - conservative
    FDP - right-liberal

    left-wing:
    SPD - social democratic
    Grüne - left-liberal
    Linke - socialist

    FDP is not conservative but right-wing. Linke is not liberal but left-wing.

    CDU corresponds to the American Republicans. FDP+Grüne correspond to the American Democrats. SPD and Linke do not exist in America because there are no social democrats or socialists there...

  38. #38
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    In politics, left-wing, leftist and the Left are generally used to describe support for social change with a view towards creating a more egalitarian society. The terms Left and Right were coined during the French Revolution, referring to the seating arrangement in parliament; those who sat on the left generally supported the radical changes of the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization.[1] The concept of a political Left became more prominent after the June Days Uprising of 1848.

    The term was applied to a number of revolutionary movements in Europe, especially socialism, anarchism[2] and communism. The term is also used to describe social democracy and social liberalism.[3] Roderick Long, an anarcho-capitalist professor, summarises left-wing politics as "concerns for worker empowerment, worry about plutocracy, concerns about feminism and various kinds of social equality".[4]


    In politics, right-wing, rightist and the Right are generally used to describe support for preserving traditional social orders with a view favoring a more stratified society.[1][2][3][4] The terms Right and Left were coined during the French Revolution, referring to seating arrangements in parliament; those who sat on the right supported preserving the institutions of the Ancien Régime (the monarchy, the aristocracy and the established church).[5][6][7][8]

    The concept of a political Right became more prominent after the second restoration of the French monarchy in 1815 with the Ultra-royalists. Today the term the Right is primarily used to refer to political groups that have a historical connection with the traditional Right, including conservatives, reactionaries, monarchists, aristocrats and theocrats. The term is also used to describe those who support free market capitalism, and some forms of nationalism.

    Political spectrum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  39. #39
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    For some reason I read Jake's post and pictured him as the Monopoly Man.

    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    This is because I'm a Te capitalist C INTp.
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