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Thread: "the Russians" and differing socionics views

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    Default "the Russians" and differing socionics views

    this is an older interesting article written by Rick that i found on his old blog on socionics.us, in which he talks about the phenomenon of socionics "splinter groups" (groups whose socionics views diverge from the "mainstream") in the Russian socionics community. it got me thinking of primarily two things:


    • using the phrase "the Russians" in reference to some supposed consensus or authority on the subject of socionics is meaningless (unless you perhaps assume that it is used in reference to "the works of Aushra Augusta and from the more popular and widely used socionics materials available on the Internet" - "mainstream socionics") because, just like in the people in English-speaking socionics community, not all of "the Russians" agree.
    • this article describes the state of the differing socionics views in the English-speaking socionics community perfectly, even though it was written about the Russians (note: it was written back in 2006; later in the article it states that "It is too early to speak of socionic splinter groups in the West", and that is no longer the case.) i find it fascinating that the exact same phenomenon has occurred in both communities.


    Mutations in socionic typology
    December 11, 2006

    One of the difficulties of socionics is that one keeps encountering different "strains" of the typology. In the Russian speaking socionics world, one can get the impression that there is no consensus on how to define the types, and that everyone types as he or she pleases. This was my impression as well until I came across the celebrity benchmark project that convinced me of the existence of a socionics "mainstream," as well as the fact that I was securely in that mainstream myself, since I found I could agree with the vast majority of the types in the celebrity benchmark list. Until this moment I was not completely sure of my belonging to the "mainstream," since I had personally experienced a number of more peripheral groups and tried in vain to correct their mistakes, and had had less direct contact with mainstream socionists.

    Mainstream socionics
    Mainstream socionics stems from the works of Aushra Augusta and from the more popular and widely used socionics materials available on the Internet. Many or most of the widely recognized, publishing socionists belong to the mainstream and have similar ideas about what constitutes socionic type. They can provide argumentation regarding someone's type that will make sense to other members of the mainstream based on a more or less common understanding of functions, information elements, the socionic model, and anecdotal type traits that "everybody knows."

    The typings of mainstream socionists have the greatest chance of providing a satisfying, accurate view of intertype relations, since the concepts used were developed with this end in mind. There is an understanding that typings that imply intertype relations that do not accurately reflect actual interpersonal dynamics must be questioned.

    Socionic splinter groups
    Adherents of socionic splinter groups usually do not recognize themselves as such, but think they are studying "standard" socionics. However, due to the fact that they see types differently than other groups, they tend to have more problems finding a common language with other socionics fans than those who have studied mainstream socionics. As a result, they tend to have serious socionics discussions only with people from their "splinter group."

    These splinter groups usually focus on some specific layer of the personality or on some innovation implemented by the group founder (e.g. a specific visual identification method, a specific temperament system that relates types to different temparaments, etc.) to the detriment of the whole, resulting in a typology that is less able to accurately predict intertype interaction. When this is the case, the leader consistently gives less attention to relationships, and followers tend to see intertype relations as "flexible" or even irrelevant to the typology, or significantly revise their descriptions of the relations to better fit their typings.

    Where splinter groups come from
    Perhaps the most common source of splinter groups are charismatic individuals who have identified their own type incorrectly. In order to support their own self-concept — an integral part of which is their own incorrectly identified socionic type — they distort socionic concepts in numerous subtle ways. Almost invariably, in their instruction and formulations they no longer emphasize functions and information elements — the building blocks of socionics — but instead talk about general personality traits, creating a typological system based on type descriptions and type anecdotes specific to their school.

    The other common source of splinter groups are charismatic socionists who create new theoretical constructions based not on people and interaction, but on the theoretical possibilities of the socionic model or their own hobby topics that they somehow manage to relate to socionics. In these cases, the socionists become convinced of the "truth" of their new theoretical innovation and bend reality to make it fit their ideas. This can involve anything from insisting on the equivalence of socionic and astrological typologies to adding subtype divisions or other complications to the original theory and giving them more emphasis than the type itself.

    There are many people with strange ideas about socionics, but splinter groups only form where there is a charismatic leader who is able to make others accept his views on a large scale.

    The state of socionics in the West
    It is too early to speak of socionic splinter groups in the West. Some of the early sources of information in English actually reflected peripheral approaches or the personal inventions of their authors and have caused much confusion — until it eventually became clear that these writings were not reflective of "mainstream" socionics. I see my own role in helping to establish a viable, mainstream socionics community that understands and applies fundamental socionic concepts, generates typings that "work" (i.e. provide accurate, useful descriptions of interaction), and speaks the same theoretical language as the mainstream Russian-speaking socionics community.

    I am consistently surprised to find people who have never spoken to socionists in real life, yet seem to have a completely accurate understanding of types and the central socionic theory. Somehow they managed to pick up on to the main ideas of socionics and successfully relate the information they found on the web to their real-life experience. The relationships they observe around them correlate well to the intertype relations of socionics. Whether they realize it or not, these people are part of the socionics mainstream and will have the fewest problems talking about socionics to people from across the globe whom they've never met before.

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    Accompany mainstream.

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    holy shit I used the phrase "the Russians" today. I feel retarded now lol. Sorry glam! ahahah

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    well, i am not trying to advocate any particular view over another (and i don't think Rick was either)


    Just... accompany mainstream.

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    ha, I always thought it was hilarious when people used the term "the Russians" in all seriousness...

    I also thought it was hilarious when people didn't use the term in all seriousness...

    the term "western socionists" or similar (as probably noone has actually used that term before) to refer to people on this forum or the other one is also amusing too! Not necessarily because I don't think people here understand socionics, or even that most people here don't understand socionics competently (I don't really have a view), but because it makes everybody a professional and\or gives Socionics legitimacy. Ha ha ha ha ha!

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    I don't really understand socionics. I just like seeding forums with my opinions and provoking flame wars behind the scenes. This isn't the only forum I go to.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Dmitri??
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    Dmitri's gone to a better place.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Well simply put I must say, many of "the Russians" adopt the MBTI system of dichotomies into Socionics. Most myers-briggs communities are in English. If any of us wanted to adopt the MBTI system of dichotomies as an importance, we could just go to a myers-briggs forum and discuss that theory. So I'm unsure if many of them really focus on the information elements, and have just been accustomed to learning whichever various interpretation.

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    The cults really aren't significant.

    What confounds me is this:
    I am consistently surprised to find people who have never spoken to socionists in real life, yet seem to have a completely accurate understanding of types and the central socionic theory. Somehow they managed to pick up on to the main ideas of socionics and successfully relate the information they found on the web to their real-life experience. The relationships they observe around them correlate well to the intertype relations of socionics. Whether they realize it or not, these people are part of the socionics mainstream and will have the fewest problems talking about socionics to people from across the globe whom they've never met before.
    Why is he surprised? Does he believe it to be beyond his own ability, in that he actually had ot meet people to find out what it was about? Does he discount his own ability as a teacher? Or Ganin's?

    I concur with the MBTI similarities. I don't think anyone hardly had an idea of the elementology beneath socionics before Rick introduced it, but they did have a sense of MBTI and Ganin's (Gulenko's) work -- and Jung's resources -- which provide enough information to understand the phenomena of psychological type/sociotype.

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    Removed at User Request

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    this thread reminds me of this:
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    This can involve anything from insisting on the equivalence of socionic and astrological typologies to adding subtype divisions or other complications to the original theory and giving them more emphasis than the type itself.
    One of Rick's capital errors is that he refuses to use subtypes. Maybe it's because the subtype system with accepting and producing subtypes doesn't help much...

    Nevertheless, I agree on the rest: The basics are most important and if theory doesn't correlate with your experiences you have probably mistyped yourself or mistyped many others or misunderstood the theory...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    One of Rick's capital errors is that he refuses to use subtypes. Maybe it's because the subtype system with accepting and producing subtypes doesn't help much...

    Nevertheless, I agree on the rest: The basics are most important and if theory doesn't correlate with your experiences you have probably mistyped yourself or mistyped many others or misunderstood the theory...
    It's precisely because the basics are most important that subtypes should not be a significant feature of your socionics experience, and they certainly shouldn't be used when attempting to type somebody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    It's precisely because the basics are most important that subtypes should not be a significant feature of your socionics experience, and they certainly shouldn't be used when attempting to type somebody.
    I disagree. DCNH helps a lot with typing...

    Example: George W. Bush is either LSE or SLE, somewhere in between.
    It helps a lot to know that he can only be D-SLE (with strengthened Te) or C-LSE (with strengthened Se) - if you know enough people of those types. You needn't compare him to H-SLEs, N-LSEs and so on...
    Last edited by JohnDo; 01-19-2010 at 02:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    I disagree. DCNH helps a lot with typing...

    Example: George W. Bush is either LSE or SLE, somewhere in between.
    It helps a lot to know that he can only be D-SLE (with strengthened Te) or C-LSE (with strengthened Se) - if you know enough people of those types. You needn't compare him to H-SLEs, N-LSEs and so on...
    yeah but most people aren't that big of an expert in typing. So subtypes shouldn't be used in the first place. Also, a lot of typing methods like 4 dichotomies, don't take subtypes into account. Your method should only be used by experts.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Obviously the perfect example of a splinter group in the West is socionix.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    nobody liked my song. Everyone here is too young to remember it.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    How about
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Nice one.
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