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    Default hurt/irritation between duals

    So I was just reading about how criticizing someone's hidden agenda comes across as an insult, and criticizing someone's POLR comes across as irritating to that person.

    One thing I suspect, not sure if this is generalizable or not, is a dual gets HIGHLY irritated when the other dual deviates from their ego functions (or the irritated person's dual seeking functions).

    Has anyone else noticed this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    So I was just reading about how criticizing someone's hidden agenda comes across as an insult, and criticizing someone's POLR comes across as irritating to that person.
    I think this is true of me, yes.

    One thing I suspect, not sure if this is generalizable or not, is a dual gets HIGHLY irritated when the other dual deviates from their ego functions (or the irritated person's dual seeking functions).

    Has anyone else noticed this?
    Maybe. I haven't been around my dual enough to know for sure. But I also suspect that other things can irritate duals as well. Take for instance the SLE 7 who's constantly on the go with various activities. And the IEI 4 or 5 or even 9 who wants to stay at home more often and wants attention. I just think there are some ways duals can irritate each other that might not have much to do with socionics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post


    One thing I suspect, not sure if this is generalizable or not, is a dual gets HIGHLY irritated when the other dual deviates from their ego functions (or the irritated person's dual seeking functions).

    Has anyone else noticed this?
    Yeah. It hurts. I've noticed this in two duals . One of them has occasional ESTj periods. When those times come I usually switch to INFj but it hurts nevertheless. The other dual has ESTj and ENFj periods. When ESTj periods come I usually naturally switch to INFj but it hurts nevertheless. When ENFj periods come I usually stay INTj and feel bad 'cause I feel that Se on my part is required and not delivered. I also feel the "ENFj" finds me irritating. That hurts. OTOH I do have some ISTj moments which are always paired with that person staying ESFj. That doesn't hurt me. Also, there are rare occasions when we're ESFj-ISFj. That hurts the ESFj more. Btw, INFjs are the type most prone to masochism. No wonder they're duals to ESTjs.
    Last edited by Trevor; 01-09-2010 at 04:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I think this is true of me, yes.



    Maybe. I haven't been around my dual enough to know for sure. But I also suspect that other things can irritate duals as well. Take for instance the SLE 7 who's constantly on the go with various activities. And the IEI 4 or 5 or even 9 who wants to stay at home more often and wants attention. I just think there are some ways duals can irritate each other that might not have much to do with socionics.
    But I thought theoretically the duals are supposed to be ok with these differences in each other. Like, differences that have to do with each others ego functions should be ok right?

    For example, once I really irritated my dual by saying something inconsiderate about someone else, which was really out of character for me (I mean, what I said wasn't the problem, it was that I said it with certain people nearby). Also I wasn't even talking to him, I was talking to a friend of his. He was sitting there doing something else.

    He SNAPPED at me like you wouldn't believe. I mean, he was really angry! Not the joking anger that he sometimes puts on. And when he did that, I was mortified at myself. And ashamed in front of him. I gave him the most sincere "sorry" that I've ever given anyone. . .I mean it was really the only thing I felt I could do. . .A few hours later, he seemed to forgive me. . .Or at least, he was reaching out again.

    I suspect that it was my deviation from Fe that set this off. Obviously he values it.
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    Drunk ILEs suck.

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    I don't really see how this could work.

    I agree with redbaron that there are ways that duals could irritate each other unrelated to socionics. But I think that if there is irritation or hurt in the way in which you're describing - functionally-related - to the extent that it's quite major or at least intermittent and seemingly unresolvable, those two people are probably not duals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Drunk ILEs suck.
    False. They are hilarious. HILARIOUS. Even more than drunk IEEs I think. But maybe that's just the ILE I know (dating an SEI, btw, so yay for naturally occurring duality!)

    For example, once I really irritated my dual by saying something inconsiderate about someone else, which was really out of character for me (I mean, what I said wasn't the problem, it was that I said it with certain people nearby). Also I wasn't even talking to him, I was talking to a friend of his. He was sitting there doing something else.
    I understand the desire to assess this socionics-ly, but I don't know that this really has a whole lot to do with socionics. I certainly don't associate Fe with considerate/inconsiderate. If anything, I associate that with Fi, which tries to maintain positive relations with people (although I don't suppose that would prevent them from saying something negative behind someone's back).

    I don't know how duals feel about non-ego elements. I mean, I think that an SLE would be unhappy if an IEI attacked him/her about something Fi related, like not understanding how something he did hurt their relationship or something. And I think an IEI would be unhappy if an SLE attacked him/her over failing to complete a process in the most efficient way possible. But I don't know that a dual manifesting a particular IE would bother a dual. I think the problem would come in when one expects the other to use the function that they're weak at (the superego functions especially) instead of just covering it and moving on. I don't think an SLE would at all mind an IEI subtly going behind him/her and mending some fences with an EII, for instance, that (s)he'd offended via Fi, nor would an IEI mind an SLE going behind him/her and quickly dealing with some mundane but necessary task so he/she doesn't get in trouble with an LSE.

    There are definitely ways to irritate duals regardless of using different functions or w/e. But one's dual will generally know the best way to smooth over the irritation, and regardless, they'll always provide something that you really need in your life, so you'll get over it. I remember the other day I was supposed to look for something for a (probably) SLE friend, and I couldn't find it at all (and I honestly didn't look *that* hard), and then he walked right up and spotted it. He was probably pissed for a minute (because he was mildly stressed about possibly having misplaced it), but I could sorta see him in his head listing all the things I'm good at (I think he said something like, "you're good at many things, finding things is not one of them"), and deciding to ignore this particular thing at which I epic fail'd. Also, it would have been a stupid thing to be mad about for any length of time, but you know, that's an example, I guess.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I don't really see how this could work.

    I agree with redbaron that there are ways that duals could irritate each other unrelated to socionics. But I think that if there is irritation or hurt in the way in which you're describing - functionally-related - to the extent that it's quite major or at least intermittent and seemingly unresolvable, those two people are probably not duals.
    It wasn't intermittent or unresolvable, reread my post. It was one single time and it resolved itself. And in that one instance, I deviated from my normal behavior, i.e. I didn't act like myself.

    I just found it interesting because both of us kind of did surprising things to each other that one time. Of note, we were both exhausted and stressed at the time.

    And so i was thinking about how it might fit into socionics. Maybe you guys are right, maybe not socionics related. but it seems like it would be actually. Because it seemed to be a value-related thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    IEIs are slow and they ask a lot of stupid questions and they think they know who you are and what you think and why you react like you do, but they don't. And they stare when you confront them with it. Annoying.

    Also, they are addictive. Really annoying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    haha hmm, yes i have thought before that i am "slow". and socionics helped me to see my tendency to perhaps "assume" too much because i'm constantly reading underlying things via Ni and Fe, so i remember to tell myself that my "insights" and readings aren't always going to be necessarily correct or that other people would necessarily care too much about them.
    Same.
    about the questions thing: i've never had an SLE say that my questions were stupid (even if i personally thought they were).. they gave me an answer and (seemingly) didn't mind explaining until my doubts were alleviated. i like asking questions, so i wouldn't want my dual to be someone who would get annoyed at me for asking them; i'd like someone who would give me answers and wouldn't be bothered by it.
    I agree and I've never had an SLE tell me, or even imply that my questions were stupid. Even though sometimes *I* think they are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    False. They are hilarious. HILARIOUS. Even more than drunk IEEs I think. But maybe that's just the ILE I know (dating an SEI, btw, so yay for naturally occurring duality!)
    Hilarious until the point they turn into a bitter drunk and get pissed off at you for banal crap.

    Ok, fine. Drunk ILEs suck for complicated strategies in WoW.

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    Before Socionics I though in general INFx were the kindest people in the world.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 07490 View Post
    Before Socionics I though in general INFx were the kindest people in the world.
    we fixed that for ya, eh?
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    we fixed that for ya, eh?
    a smile and then a question mark? fixed?
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    But I thought theoretically the duals are supposed to be ok with these differences in each other. Like, differences that have to do with each others ego functions should be ok right?
    yes. I was just tossing out a theoretical with that. I don't have any actual experience being annoyed by a SLE E-7. And I'll bet what would happen is that the IEI would be so relaxing to the SLE that it would cause him/her to slow down a bit and look forward to coming home, as a place where he/she feels safe. And the IEI would be inspired to get out and do more. I was just speculating there. But I do think there might be some ways in which they could annoy one another. Like if they don't share the same moral values. Still, even then, I suspect that if there was something keeping them together for whatever reason, as friends, that over time they'd grow to even find those differences endearing.

    which is why SLEs are annoying. even when they're assholes, they're awesome. grrrr.
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    I think Dual can hurt each other more than Conflictor because if you are seeking (Super-id) in your everyday behavior (Ego function), and you encounter some negative/unhealthy super-id information by your dual, it will affect you more than say super-ego (your conflictor's ego) information which you pay little attention to.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 07490 View Post
    I think Dual can hurt each other more than Conflictor because if you are seeking (Super-id) in your everyday behavior (Ego function), and you encounter some negative/unhealthy super-id information by your dual, it will affect you more than say super-ego (your conflictor's ego) information which you pay little attention to.
    Thank you numbers, that's kind of what I was thinking too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    IEIs are slow and they ask a lot of stupid questions and they think they know who you are and what you think and why you react like you do, but they don't. And they stare when you confront them with it. Annoying.

    Also, they are addictive. Really annoying.



    Drunk ILEs suck.

    My question for you Mimosa is. . .how do you know for SURE that IEIs dont know what you're thinking, who you are, and why you're reacting the way you are?

    Yes true, I'm slow. . .
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    I've seen it happen once, not so much the "annoying" variety which tends to be fairly harmless and easily put aside.

    Under certain circumstances, outside forces/pressures can have one or both of the duals in a relationship lapsing to ID functions and creating real conflict. In situation like this for instance (in an ILE-SEI conflict) an ILE can Look very much like LIE placing rigid demands on efficiency and time and SEI takes on the attitude of ESI focusing on the interpersonal and exhibiting forcefulness.

    Kinda funny in a way, an alpha irrational duality turning into a gamma rational one ... but it doesn't work that way ... each party appears to receive the demands of the other as if from a conflictor.

    Again, this is not common, and lasts only briefly under extreme circumstances but it can happen. In the end however my observation was that it did not result in long term ill will.
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    My question for you Mimosa is. . .how do you know for SURE that IEIs dont know what you're thinking, who you are, and why you're reacting the way you are?
    Because she's an IEI ... and knows herself quite well.
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    Because she's an IEI ... and knows herself quite well.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    Because she's an IEI ... and knows herself quite well.
    WHAT??? no way, I thought Mimosa was SLE! Are you multiple personalities Mimosa? A dual pair all wrapped into one?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    I've seen it happen once, not so much the "annoying" variety which tends to be fairly harmless and easily put aside.

    Under certain circumstances, outside forces/pressures can have one or both of the duals in a relationship lapsing to ID functions and creating real conflict. In situation like this for instance (in an ILE-SEI conflict) an ILE can Look very much like LIE placing rigid demands on efficiency and time and SEI takes on the attitude of ESI focusing on the interpersonal and exhibiting forcefulness.

    Kinda funny in a way, an alpha irrational duality turning into a gamma rational one ... but it doesn't work that way ... each party appears to receive the demands of the other as if from a conflictor.

    Again, this is not common, and lasts only briefly under extreme circumstances but it can happen. In the end however my observation was that it did not result in long term ill will.
    And this is exactly what happened! Except I wasn't demanding anything from him. He was just present for my conversation with someone else. And true, it happened under extreme circumstances, and no long term ill will. In fact we were back to being friendly a couple hours later, and actually got a lot closer over the subsequent months.

    Though i'm not sure what type I turned into that moment. Or what type he turned into. Would i have turned into the delta rational introverted counterpart? so, EII? And he would have turned into LSE? hmm, trrruuuee. . . now that I think about it. That was a rather LSE way to react. . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Possibly.
    When Zhukov says no he means NO!
    When Zhukov says yes he means yes
    When Zhukov say maybe he is not Zhukov!
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    When Zhukov says maybe he doesn't want to tell.
    Oh i forgot ....
    When Zhukov doesn't want to tell he says nothing.
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    So I was just reading about how criticizing someone's hidden agenda comes across as an insult, and criticizing someone's POLR comes across as irritating to that person.

    One thing I suspect, not sure if this is generalizable or not, is a dual gets HIGHLY irritated when the other dual deviates from their ego functions (or the irritated person's dual seeking functions).

    Has anyone else noticed this?
    yes I've also read in an article that Duals often are very careful with eachother because they know they have the power to hurt them. Not much else was described in detail, but I guess it has something to do with your idea. Though I don't think they meant deviating from ego functions but rather making fun of the lesser developed super id functions of the dual partner.

    Example an ILI vs SEE, 'you are dumb for not forseeing that'. This lowers selfesteem of the SEE. However when saying 'next time l can help you with that'. This gives a feeling of protection to the SEE.

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    I think it's a bit annoying but more so amusing when ISTJ's try to predict the future. I have met a few who do this, they make a past time of it really, and I just wonder wtf they are talking about, because most of it sounds like nonsense to me.
    As for me being criticized, I haven't noticed from my dual; but my SEE stepmother used to say to me when I was young that she wouldn't respect me until I grew a pair of balls, I can't stand her for that reason and many others.
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    As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    I think it's a bit annoying but more so amusing when ISTJ's try to predict the future.
    Yes I noticed this too.

    But I think it's because they have no clue about the future, weak Ni, that they start speculating and asking questions to comfort themselves. Just a thought...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    When Zhukov says no he means NO!
    When Zhukov says yes he means yes
    When Zhukov say maybe he is not Zhukov!
    Love it

    Remember though, Rocket, MP is female. And when females say "maybe" it's a coy tactic and yes, it means she doesn't want to tell.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Remember though, Rocket, MP is female. And when females say "maybe" it's a coy tactic and yes, it means she doesn't want to tell.
    Male SLEs do this too.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    As for me being criticized, I haven't noticed from my dual; but my SEE stepmother used to say to me when I was young that she wouldn't respect me until I grew a pair of balls, I can't stand her for that reason and many others.
    You might be onto something there morcheeba. I know you're not talking about duals but its quite easy to see how that sort of dynamic could come about as a result of a generation gap and its attendant agendas.

    Keeping in mind that you were the benefactor in that relationship, theory would have it that you would have found your grandmother uninteresting (-PoLR) while she was fascinate by you (-Creative)and tried to "help" you or "bring you up to speed" and into her world in terms of .She may have felt that she didn't have much time and tried to press you unreasonably.

    Its easy to see that a dual pair (in a similar situation of a generation gap) the older person may have an agenda to bring the young one up to speed in their area of weakness rather than enjoy the benefits of a balanced relationship. They may feel it is their duty as a "grandparent" or possibly even "parent" to identify these weaknesses and correct them ie. to pass onto to the younger person their abilities and/or lifestyle.
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    yes I've also read in an article that Duals often are very careful with eachother because they know they have the power to hurt them.
    Can't really say i've ever felt that. Mostly i've felt entirely at ease with my duals and hardly notice their weaknesses, nor they mine.

    Is suppose in your scenario if the ILI was a really junior person in the firm and the SEE was the boss there could be some tiptoeing going on in the area of when it had to be addressed.
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Love it

    Remember though, Rocket, MP is female. And when females say "maybe" it's a coy tactic and yes, it means she doesn't want to tell.
    Thanks ....
    ILE

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Male SLEs do this too.
    I don't remember ever not wanting to tell someone something when they ask.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    My husband and I do sometimes get briefly irritated with each other. I think the difference between us and non-duals is how easily it's resolved. When we're upset, it lasts an average of probably 30 seconds.

    So for example, if there's something I need fixed and he is lazy and not doing it, I might say, "I thought you said you'd fix this sink! I'm having a hard time because it's STILL broken!" And then he'll either say, "Oh, yeah" and fix it, or he'll say, "I'm tired, but I'm home from work tomorrow and I can do it then" or something. Anyway, it always gets resolved. If he gets irritated with me, it's because I'm scatterbrained and can't remember to, say, pay a bill he told me to pay, or because I have trouble filling out stupid forms (I hate forms). But I'll say, "I'm sorry! I'll do it tomorrow first thing!" or something and it's resolved immediately.

    So, really, it seems like we usually get irritated by things normal to each other's type. We just don't get irritated to stay upset for any length of time, and it's resolved very quickly.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    My husband and I do sometimes get briefly irritated with each other. I think the difference between us and non-duals is how easily it's resolved. When we're upset, it lasts an average of probably 30 seconds.

    So for example, if there's something I need fixed and he is lazy and not doing it, I might say, "I thought you said you'd fix this sink! I'm having a hard time because it's STILL broken!" And then he'll either say, "Oh, yeah" and fix it, or he'll say, "I'm tired, but I'm home from work tomorrow and I can do it then" or something. Anyway, it always gets resolved. If he gets irritated with me, it's because I'm scatterbrained and can't remember to, say, pay a bill he told me to pay, or because I have trouble filling out stupid forms (I hate forms). But I'll say, "I'm sorry! I'll do it tomorrow first thing!" or something and it's resolved immediately.

    So, really, it seems like we usually get irritated by things normal to each other's type. We just don't get irritated to stay upset for any length of time, and it's resolved very quickly.
    Did he ever fix the sink?
    ISTp
    SLI

    Enneagram 5 with a side of wings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post
    Did he ever fix the sink?
    So this is really sad, but he was too cheap to buy a new sprayer assembly, but then he found one at a garage sale and it got fixed after that.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    You are not the only SLE in the world.

    What's your enneatype? I'm thinking it could be linked to so last? All SLEs I can think of who are reserved that way seem to have so last.
    I'm an 8w7 sp/sx

    Just out of interest though, I'm a bit confused because from my angle, it seems that you're implying that not withholding information is being "reserved" (in any way)? I would've said the opposite.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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