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Thread: Function Blockings

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Default Function Blockings

    I have held for a long time that there is something to be gained by studying functions and their activity in the human psyche in pairs. Personally I do not believe that any one function manifests in a person, either by way of type or individual instance, without being paired with another. The pairing is what brings the functions into focus, allows them to see one side of things, to make information "tangible" to the brain instead of being just raw perception, which is impossible to process; combination refines perception and makes it useful to us.

    I believe there is a great deal of insight into the types to be gained by studying this with its relevance to Model A, and I think a lot of how different types utilize and experience the functions can be explained by looking at how functional pairing relates to the Socionic psyche.

    I'll throw one example out there that strrrng and I discussed.

    Let's look at usage of Si in IEI and EIE. In both types, the most easily accessible form of Si is Si blocked with Fe; Fe is a strong, native function for both types, meaning that anything paired with it is going to be consciously accessible with some ease, whether it is preferable or not.

    Now, looking at both of these type's natural functional makeup, we can glean two things immediatly.

    For IEIs, Ni being their base, any use of Si is going to be somewhat "undermining" to their natural state; Ni and Si are both IP functions, and since Ni is IEI's dominant function, it is going to be a bother or a nuissance, most likely, to pay any attention toSi, because it takes them directly out of what they most want to focus on. However, they have moderately strong Si, it being their role function and thus the same temperament as their base, so while it may be a bother, it's not something they usually have a hard time with; more they would just rather not pay attention to it in a very general sense. Role functions serve mostly as a "tool," something we can make use of when we feel like we must, but we are not exceptionally confident in, and prefer to avoid using whenever possible.

    For EIEs, with Fe base, use of Si is, while unnatural and not preferred, also not much trouble at all, because it does not undermine their natural base; indeed, with practice, it can be highly commensurate. Being Ni creative, they are accustomed to bending their second function to their will and using it with impunity, and thus they will likely try to do the same with whatever "takes its place" in the pairing shift to Si: use it in service of Fe. However, given that Si is their weakest function, they are likely to be either reckless or clumsy in its usage, to over- or under-do just about everything related to it; they will likely try hard, but not yield exceptional results, and thus become extremely frustrated. In this way, PoLRs are often probably our greatest source of frustration: we can see, on a preconscious level, that we have potential interest in it, that it "should" be something we exercise control over because of the natural pairing with our dominant function and similar use to our creative function, but we are thwarted at every turn, and not likely to develop or maintain any serious investment in making use of it in our daily lives.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Ok, I understand that is a function that is weak yet conscious in an EIE's psyche; but what I don't get is how this manifests itself in everyday life. I have no clue as to whether I overdo it or ignore it. From what I gather, it has to do with perceptions of sensations between objects, but what does this mean exactly? Can someone please give real life examples of this instead of abstractions that don't really give me a full understanding of this function as it pertains to a polr weakness.
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    Yeah.. it can be useful to describe functions in isolation (attributing something to a "Fe PoLR" or something of that nature), but it seems like the most beneficial descriptions are those that combine functions. Wikisocion's type descriptions often group functions together, as do the descriptions of what each quadra demonstrates and devalues. It seems to make for a better understanding overall; functions don't work alone, and their interaction is greater than the sum of their descriptions.

    For more examples of functions' interactions, do you think that some of the wikisocion quadra "Dominant elements" and "Subdued elements" categories (e.g. Delta) are accurate, or are there better descriptions of how they play together?


    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    Ok, I understand that is a function that is weak yet conscious in an EIE's psyche; but what I don't get is how this manifests itself in everyday life. I have no clue as to whether I overdo it or ignore it. From what I gather, it has to do with perceptions of sensations between objects, but what does this mean exactly? Can someone please give real life examples of this instead of abstractions that don't really give me a full understanding of this function as it pertains to a polr weakness.
    Have you looked through the Si PoLR thread? It might help your understanding.
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    No, that thread doesn't real help all that much; it helps in some aspects; but certainly isn't just about enjoying cooking and sports. I'm wondering how it manifests in most areas of life; like what would be a good example of a polr hit other than someone criticizing you about not being a good cook, that wouldn't really bother me; their must be better examples of how it would be truly painful if brought to your attention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Si-PoLR is more about an unawareness of personal sensations. How sensations affect themselves and others. Si-PoLRs are bad at measuring quality of how the senses affect themselves. They may tend towards enjoying overly strong or bland tastes. They may equate intensity of sensation with quality when dealing with the senses. They typically have little desire to indulge in the senses for periods of time and become impatient. Not very good at knowing what looks 'good' and may have insecurities about how good they look almost always taking criticism personally if brought up by others.
    my 2 cents on Si-PoLR.

    Si blocked with Te in the ego is essentially empirical thinking to it's max. All things which cannot be directly observed are looked at with skepticism. The senses affect a person's line of objective thought.

    Si blocked with Fe in the ego is more in line with sensual indulgence. The senses affect a person's emotional state. Good tastes and physical atmosphere are essential.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    my 2 cents on Si-PoLR.

    Si blocked with Te in the ego is essentially empirical thinking to it's max. All things which cannot be directly observed are looked at with skepticism. The senses affect a person's line of objective thought.

    Si blocked with Fe in the ego is more in line with sensual indulgence. The senses affect a person's emotional state. Good tastes and physical atmosphere are essential.
    This gives me a better picture of what it would be like as an ESE; thank you Azeroffs, you always explain things in a clear cut fashion which I appreciate.
    EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1


    As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
    Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    This gives me a better picture of what it would be like as an ESE; thank you Azeroffs, you always explain things in a clear cut fashion which I appreciate.
    Yeah, no problem
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    Wow, I'm so glad that all the people who bitch about this forum not being a productive atmosphere for intellectual development or furthering of understanding of Socionics have taken full advantage of this prime opportunity to expand their understanding. I see that my efforts are greatly appreciated by those who bitch about my lack of positive contribution.

    ...Seriously, I thought this was a great topic. Nobody cares?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    You'll have to explain better why you think Si is blocked with Fe in IEI/EIEs. As Rick talks about it and the general consensus is that Si is blocked with Te.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    It is in terms of Model A, but I don't think Model A is complete; I think we each use ALL of the functional pairings. So it's not so much that Si is always blocked with Fe in EIEs, but rather that this is a description of Si blocked with Fe as it appears in EIEs.

    Si is probably more noticeable in EIEs, especially its futility or weakness, when blocked with Te, because that is where their weaknesses are best highlighted. However I would say they use it more often, and with greater success (although likely still not great by any measure) in service of their dominant function, Fe.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It is in terms of Model A, but I don't think Model A is complete; I think we each use ALL of the functional pairings. So it's not so much that Si is always blocked with Fe in EIEs, but rather that this is a description of Si blocked with Fe as it appears in EIEs.

    Si is probably more noticeable in EIEs, especially its futility or weakness, when blocked with Te, because that is where their weaknesses are best highlighted. However I would say they use it more often, and with greater success (although likely still not great by any measure) in service of their dominant function, Fe.
    Yes absolutely, any individual can think with any pairing of functions so long as the pairings follow the positioning rules. Which is why it's important to use Model B instead of Model A.

    We should get hold of Boukalov's papers on Model B and switch over to it as soon as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I have held for a long time that there is something to be gained by studying functions and their activity in the human psyche in pairs. Personally I do not believe that any one function manifests in a person, either by way of type or individual instance, without being paired with another. The pairing is what brings the functions into focus, allows them to see one side of things, to make information "tangible" to the brain instead of being just raw perception, which is impossible to process; combination refines perception and makes it useful to us.

    I believe there is a great deal of insight into the types to be gained by studying this with its relevance to Model A, and I think a lot of how different types utilize and experience the functions can be explained by looking at how functional pairing relates to the Socionic psyche.
    I think the idea you are discussing is also covered by the + and - representations of functions. Though that paradigm looks at the creative function to determine the +/- categorisation. However, the creative is what determines the PoLR. Even though it is the first function that takes the hit in a PoLR attack.

    Also, my observation has been that the creative modifies the use of the first function. Or, maybe this is just the quadra values that come to the fore (in which case the sixth function/HA would also be equally relevant).


    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    my 2 cents on Si-PoLR.

    Si blocked with Te in the ego is essentially empirical thinking to it's max. All things which cannot be directly observed are looked at with skepticism. The senses affect a person's line of objective thought.

    Si blocked with Fe in the ego is more in line with sensual indulgence. The senses affect a person's emotional state. Good tastes and physical atmosphere are essential.
    I particularly like that line. Just replacing senses with imagination . It is a surprise Gamma NTs don't have nervous breakdowns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Wow, I'm so glad that all the people who bitch about this forum not being a productive atmosphere for intellectual development or furthering of understanding of Socionics have taken full advantage of this prime opportunity to expand their understanding. I see that my efforts are greatly appreciated by those who bitch about my lack of positive contribution.

    ...Seriously, I thought this was a great topic. Nobody cares?
    The idea of functions working in pairs is nothing new, it's how sub-types are explained.

    I don't mean any offense by this, but you seem to be wondering why it's not getting lots of response, i'm just explaining that I think this is why. I feel like apologising even although it's not my fault, but there's little much else to theorise about socionics. Only other thing I can think of is that people talk about the types they meet irl to try to advance the practical application of socionics.

    I think we spoke about functions working in pairs ages ago on a thread you created, some guy was disputing the concept.

    Anyway, kudos for trying, you're doing better than me, lol.

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    Well it's certainly nothing new to me; I've been talking about this stuff since the early days of the workshop, a couple of years ago. I just don't see it being put to use elsewhere, so I assume I'm the only one I guess
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Yeah, the functions are blocked. But I think it's rather trivial:

    --- research
    --- applications

    --- long-term profit
    --- short-term profit

    --- collectivism
    --- individualism

    --- manipulation
    --- compassion

    Alphas: value research and compassion; are individualists and rather interested in long-term profit
    Betas: value applications and manipulation; are collectivists and rather interested in short-term profit
    Gammas: are individualists and value long-term profit; are rather interested in research and compassion
    Delta: are collectivists and value short-term profit; rather interested in applications and manipulation

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Yeah, the functions are blocked. But I think it's rather trivial:

    --- research
    --- applications

    --- long-term profit
    --- short-term profit

    --- collectivism
    --- individualism

    --- manipulation
    --- compassion

    Alphas: value research and compassion; are individualists and rather interested in long-term profit
    Betas: value applications and manipulation; are collectivists and rather interested in short-term profit
    Gammas: are individualists and value long-term profit; are rather interested in research and compassion
    Delta: are collectivists and value short-term profit; rather interested in applications and manipulation
    :shakes head:

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    I liked the first post in this thread.
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    Possible function pairings for IEIs:

    Ni + Fe: most natural. Involves associations between feelings, character traits, etc., especially predicting human behavior and "profound" insights about how people change themselves and others psychologically.

    Ni + Te: rather unnatural. Involves associations between what the IEI considers "dry" data (others might call it "factual" or perhaps even "scientific"), prediction of future trends based on statistical or "factual" data, etc. This is IEI goes to the stock market. Most IEIs can force themselves to do this, and with enough training (in a Ti vein) they can organize the data enough to do some actual work with it, but without some Ti-style assistance, the IEI will try to muddle through what he considers meaningless data, get frustrated, and find some way to avoid doing it. This feels

    Si + Fe: Possible, very possible, but uncomfortable. Involves providing helpful, kind, practical assistance in order to change people's emotional states. Fung Shui or whatever is very much this sort of thing. An IEI, being more naturally NiFe, is likely to start a project of this sort (changing external aesthetic perceptions in order to produce a certain internal state) but then get distracted and not finish it because he doesn't particularly care about it. This is a way of going about things IEIs can use fairly effectively when needed but do not particularly enjoy. If, for instance, a loved one is in the hospital (and seems to need or appreciate Si), this state is likely to kick in in the IEI, and fade immediately once the IEI leaves that particular situation. I actually do this sort of thing a lot for my mom, who's IEE (probably). (EDIT: not that my mom is in the hospital often, thank goodness.)

    Si + Te: Most unnatural state. IEI finds this extraordinarily uncomfortable due to the lack of drama, interest, or surprise. Involves streamlining concrete processes. The IEI is just bad at this, and usually hopes that someone will come along and do it for him (bonus points if they don't make him feel bad about not doing it too).


    Okay, so these are the potential ego and superego function pairings. It might be interesting to explore the possibilities of bringing id and superid into the mix, creating eight possible pairings. Here's one example:

    Se + Ti: IEI considers it a miracle if he is able to act in this state. Extraordinarily draining when pulled off. Basically, it's act-like-a-badass time for the IEI. Normally attempts at this fail rather badly, as the IEI tries to effect his will, but feels uncertain both about his right to do so (in Ti terms) and about his ability to "push people around." The IEI may attempt this if he is fairly certain of a positive outcome (Ni) or especially if he feels his position in the social hierarchy (Ti) is such that he can get away with it, but in general the IEI prefers to go another route. Sometimes (as I have heard is the case with Lady Gaga) an unhealthy or immature IEI will attempt to handle this sort of thing himself, but fail to do so effectively: he will come off as bratty rather than authoritative and bossy rather than commanding.

    We see this other route in the Michael Jackson (IEI-Fe) This Is It movie, which is a great case study of a remarkable IEI at work. Michael has very strong, decisive opinions about what should be done for the concert. In fact, if pressed, he probably would consider these beliefs knowledge, not opinion. This is because he has used his Ni to subconsciously analyze a thousand factors and generalized patterns of interaction, which produces a "certainty" about what should or shouldn't be done. But Michael cannot, as a TiSe or SeTi could, simply enforce this knowledge by fiat, personal strength, or force of personality. Rather, he has to rely on his Ti hierarchical position (he is allowed to tell the musical director what to do, because there is a clear hierarchy that places him above the musical director), and someone else's Se, namely, his producer Kenny Ortega (an odious man, who was responsible for the High School Musical series and the dreadful choreography thereof). Jackson does not tell other people what to do, really, or demand that certain things be done in a particular way. Rather, he tells Kenny Ortega his vision (basically), and Kenny Ortega makes sure that it gets done/is executed.

    Do all the functions have to be paired according to the customary rules (i.e., introverted perception + extroverted judgment and extroverted perception + introverted judgment)? I ask because I find it productive to think about, for example, how the HA function interacts with the leading. My favorite example is William Blake's mythical schema. He is a poet of vision (Ni) that attempts to use the hidden agenda function (Ti) to create a clear structure for that vision.

    This also produces an interesting reading of Medea, wherein she takes strong, decisive, even cruel action (Se) not so much because Jason's wronged her (Ti--he broke a contract), as because she needs the emotionality to stay high, and in absence of Jason's love to sustain her passion, she creates
    Last edited by silverchris9; 02-22-2010 at 11:20 AM.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

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