View Poll Results: is bullets&doves ISFp?

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Thread: is bullets&doves ISFp?

  1. #1
    crazedrat's Avatar
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    Default is bullets&doves ISFp?

    Someone else mentioned it the other day. Now I think so, for a number of reasons. vote ^
    INTp

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    Okay.

    I am clearly NOT a sensor in any shape or form. I LOVE the balance that OTHER sensors provide, but I cannot do this myself at all.

    I know most of you hate 'mbti-izing socionics' but the general gist of what they are saying is true. I obviously am a natural intuit/intuitor? and not a natural sensor. Although I intuitively understand sensing shit, I just don't do this myself. If I am connected to the real earthy world it's always in a sort of distant, dreamy way.

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    here is, briefly, why I am considering Si for you:
    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Okay.

    I am clearly NOT a sensor in any shape or form.
    gives no existential justification. instead, it relies on implicit experience for justification. this is characteristic of Si, not Ni.
    I LOVE the balance that OTHER sensors provide, but I cannot do this myself at all.
    again you don't attempt to define or elaborate on your terms
    I know most of you hate 'mbti-izing socionics' but the general gist of what they are saying is true.
    same. no existential elaboration
    I obviously am a natural intuit/intuitor? and not a natural sensor.
    same
    Although I intuitively understand sensing shit, I just don't do this myself.
    again the same
    If I am connected to the real earthy world it's always in a sort of distant, dreamy way.
    and to top it off, a slight misrepresentation of sensing as having a bias toward extraversion
    so there is why I think you are ISFp. it also seems more likely considering your E type.
    Last edited by crazedrat; 12-31-2009 at 09:20 AM.
    INTp

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    You don't need 'existential evidence' for every goddamn thing. It's right there on everybody's noses if they bothered to look at how people *really* are and stopped being so faux-insightful. Just cause I can concretely state the obvious doesn't make me an isfp.

    Your psychoanalizations are humorous to me though. But pry deeper cause you still haven't figured me out yet. =D (I'm not angry or offended by you, just....amused)

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    I see the same phenomenon in every post you make. No context, just implicitness. Infact you often ignore context. Actually, the argument you just made relies on Si. Tell me, what is Si? Do you know?
    INTp

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    Maybe. But that would relate to my Te polr. Which isfp has too, but still doesn't argue in isfp's direction. It's just neutral.

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    My mind can be open for this if I hear some really good arguements or evidences about how is it different. But so far nothing is clicking so I can't join in on the 'sam is isfp bandwagon' sorry. And I do not believe in the cliche 'other people see you better than you see yourself.'

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    No. That isn't Te polr. Just look at strrrng. He has Te polr, but he is hyper aware of context. context is very much related to the Ni/Se axis.
    INTp

  9. #9
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    Ok, Sam, you can describe what you do more elaborately than I can, but a great deal of your posts seem to be about raising the alarm about something. This seems quite decidedly Beta NF over Alpha SF. How anyone could see you as reinforcing a positive environment for free emotional expression is quite beyond me. It's that "positive environment" that gets me so much; you often see the SEIs on the board chipping in with jokes or humor to lighten the mood, while your posts are always Srs Bsns soapboxing about your thoughts on somethingorother.

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    he's actually... always, advocating a positive environment for free emotional expression (typically for the gays), and his alarms center around those ideals (and perceived infractions). lol.
    anyway, have you ever seen dolphins posts? dolphin is ISFp, and her posts are biting.
    if we're reducing Si to positive environments, his throat fucking fantasy rants could be seen the same way.
    Last edited by crazedrat; 12-31-2009 at 09:49 AM.
    INTp

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Context =/= Ni. I suppose that it's a frequent feature, but if I had my way I would just state my beliefs, the "facts" as far as I'm concerned, with no further logical justification, reasoning, expansion or explanation. Honestly, I think providing context is just a way of explaining an Ni revelation in more logical terms, although I'm not completely sure about that. Also, what does "existential justification" mean?

    Regardless, BnD is almost 100% certain IEI. Where does he focus on external dynamics of fields, ever (at least on this website)? His focus seems to be 100% internal, that is, towards that which is not available to the senses or is abstracted away from (pulled out of), the information of sense experience. This is completely in keeping with internal dynamics of fields and internal dynamics of objects, which tends to focus IEIs on the immaterial, the invisible, the "soul", the "inner life" etc. BnD talks a lot about taking specific actions, but it's always general advice about how to improve your life; in other words, it's an abstraction, a theory, an idea. Ni is all about abstractions, theories, ideas, and things that one gets by insight or intuition rather than logical reasoning. That seems to describe BnD's posts very well, imo.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    And you are far too arrogant in your certainty.
    here are blogs written by a known ISFp. I can only say it's just like B&Ds writing. Name a feature of B&Ds writing, and you can see it in here.


    Art.
    Art is real. Art doesn't hide behind the carefully constructed barriers of what is acceptable to people. Art isn't simply the huge eyes, gamin figure. Art hurts. Art is the icepick scars, a disintended belly. Art is bloodshot eyes, a pain in your eyes, because art is reality, and reality is pain. We all have our glimpses of happiness, but it's frothy, insubstantial stuff, and life isn't made of happiness nor defined by it. Art is defined by clarity, and clarity requires pain. You never know the...

    Living is fucked. Spin, 180, 360, doesn't matter. Fucked. No, not the carefully unplanned attempt by the self to believe in the high, the buildup, the bridge, the going towards. Fucked. Metaphorically, literally, doesn't matter. Lying facedown, face up, trying to find the will to draw breath, chest caving in, lungs filled with fluid.

    Early symptoms of cynanide poisoning resemble that of altitude sickness. Oxygen transfers electrons the body has maneuvered into place by attaching to...

    This is a response to one of Truck's threads a while back.

    Happiness is earthy, as if you could roll in the dirt, self conciousness thrown off like an oversized coat, smiling into the sun.

    We don't see happiness for what it is. We see a shadow, take it in hesitant gulps. That time the roller coaster scared you past your self control, the stifled laugh that escaped your lips. Stolen. That sleepy full secure feeling. Tentative glance, mysterious smile, hopefu
    l electricity...
    INTp

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    lol a lot of neurotic impulse synapses to smoothe over I don't know where to begin.

    Just look at strrrng. He has Te polr, but he is hyper aware of context. context is very much related to the Ni/Se axis.
    Uh no it isn't. You just think it is cause that's the way you want things to be in your brain but okay. I just don't think that's socionics related at all.

    Ok, Sam, you can describe what you do more elaborately than I can, but a great deal of your posts seem to be about raising the alarm about something. This seems quite decidedly Beta NF over Alpha SF. How anyone could see you as reinforcing a positive environment for free emotional expression is quite beyond me. It's that "positive environment" that gets me so much; you often see the SEIs on the board chipping in with jokes or humor to lighten the mood, while your posts are always Srs Bsns soapboxing about your thoughts on somethingorother.
    Yeah I am a serious person over all.

    here are blogs written by a known ISFp. I can only say it's just like B&Ds writing. Name a feature of B&Ds writing, and you can see it in here.
    First off, Dolphin's type is still up for debate. She's either isfp or esfp or infp but nothing is certain yet. And yes, Dolphin and I understand each other emotionally really well, so we are close.

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    he's actually... always, advocating a positive environment for free emotional expression (typically for the gays), and his alarms center around those ideals (and perceived infractions). lol.
    I don't like 100% serious and negative and I don't like 100% playful or mediator-like either, I like both depending on my mood. If You can't tell which is which for me that's a combination of you not understanding me or some sort of emotional/psychological distance that we have. And there's nothing 'perceived' about my infractions, gays are not socially equal in the country I was raised in that's an objective truth. but I understand that it is always easier for everybody to side with the offender. =) I have my own mixed feelings about what true 'equality' entails when everybody is different, but Yeah I do like talking about it and its important to me.

    if u take that as emo complaining not much I can say only thats thats wrong and ur just sadly misunderstanding. =/

    anyway, have you ever seen dolphins posts? dolphin is ISFp, and her posts are biting.
    if we're reducing Si to positive environments, his throat fucking fantasy rants could be seen the same way
    the problem is ur trying to use ur mind too much, you're too emotionally apart from me right now to really understand me or feel the raw energy of my posts. its okay though but you are just.....way off base, sorry crazed. we're just gonna have to talk about something where we emotionally click. yay male bonding.

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    ...
    Last edited by energystar; 03-01-2010 at 09:07 PM.

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    No.

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    I've actually considered this recently, and think it's fairly plausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    No. That isn't Te polr. Just look at strrrng. He has Te polr, but he is hyper aware of context. context is very much related to the Ni/Se axis.
    Yeah, it is. Si has its own context, but Ni is more concerned with refining the contextual relevancy of ideas (which entails isolating the Se variables). I can't say that I really see this behavior as prominent with Sam, given things like 'the16typesadventures' and such, which seem to point towards a more open, exploratory disposition with ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    he's actually... always, advocating a positive environment for free emotional expression (typically for the gays), and his alarms center around those ideals (and perceived infractions). lol.
    anyway, have you ever seen dolphins posts? dolphin is ISFp, and her posts are biting.
    if we're reducing Si to positive environments, his throat fucking fantasy rants could be seen the same way.
    Yeah. And ISFps can promote emotions for change; alphas are the initial components of inciting things; they just do it in an open-ended way. One could easily construe b&d's innocently aggressive rants as an alpha finding faults in the current system and aspiring to higher ideals.

    I also agree that the way he has responded to you in this thread is indicative of something.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Not impossible, IMO. He has a very explicit way of confronting stereotypes; his method is to expose commonalities between his own perceptions and those that he attributes to the "big Other," and to try to reconcile them with a more ideal approach.

    He also has a somewhat blithe attitude of wanting to achieve lofty ideals, to "have his cake and eat it too," so to speak, and speaks about the conflicts inherent in trying to do so; Betas are generally quick emphasize their own personal compromises or sacrifices, almost as badges of honor or objects of dark amusement. He has a sadness to him, an overtly expressed loss of innocence, if you will, that makes me think more of Alpha than Beta; Betas tend to under-emphasize any kind of innocence they might have, and let slip their "fall" in a more dark manner, almost like they are admitting to repression on the sly or something.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    is bullets&doves ISFp?
    mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm no
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    for those of you who's opinion is not worth anything.. that is to say, you have nothing to contribute, please use the my opinion is not worth anything option.
    INTp

  21. #21
    Creepy-female

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    I have mixed feelings about this. I do love Sam a lot and feel a great affinity for him, and I feel that the writing comparison was strangely apt. However I don't really see him as having Si, or the S dichotomy. In my experience there is definitely a distinction you can make between S and N, even if it seems rather rudimentary and MBTI-ish.

    I see the differences between him and some of the INFps here as having to do with language and each person's corresponding faculty with it. There's an observable difference when people become accustomed to employing language with great precision, rather than embellishment or seemingly inadequate attempts to establish their abstract ideas. I've seen IxFps with undeveloped (and sometimes even developed) language skills floundering a bit in their own spit, metaphorically, and I see Sam's general style as an example of this tendency. I see his concrete references and word choice as more of a product of his exposure to the references he's been exposed to/education than because he's ISFp. ie, you can't communicate in words or argument styles that you don't know or haven't been exposed to in some form.

    Strangling people contextually and rigidly like you were in a mental fistfight while dissecting every sentence because you can't deign to try to understand someone's general meaning is not a hallmark of Ni, it's something any type can engage in when they are locked in a rigid thought/communication pattern they can't/won't get out of. I can think of plenty of INFps who don't engage in that sort of thing, krae being a good example of a similar INFp to Sam, and of which the language phenomenon I attempted to describe is readily observable. silverchris, Baby, redbaron, glamourama, Scarlettlux, and Starfall are also examples of INFps that I can think of off the top of my head that don't do this. Just because you happen to have personal intellectual resonance with strrrng doesn't mean everyone is going to develop the communication style you've chosen.

    And your brother...now he's ISFp, oh the revelations? Why are you always relegating a type to him? To try to justify his existence and/or his relation to you in meaningful terms, taking comfort in the fact that people make a bit more sense with a reference point like Socionics? He sounds pretty crazy regardless. Take into account that some people just aren't going to make very good examples of type. Your brother's behavior is not going to suddenly make a shitload of sense because you decided to slap a type on him, unless your perception of types is vastly disorted and fucked up. I know you are capable of more honesty with yourself which is why this is annoying. I'm sure you know and can see clearly that Gul deals with his inability to relate to people and insecure self image by thinking up a world where a 16th of the population loves to emotionally accommodate him while he's going around passively attention whoring, when in reality it's a lot more complicated than that, and no, Si is not all about him. I am confident that you are perfectly capable of relegating that example/approach/phenomenon to a wider viewpoint with a myriad of people, and notice its downfalls, so don't bullshit me that that's about Ni/Se either. I think we all need to step back sometimes and stop justifying so many of our life problems with various Socionics principles. I'm not saying I've never done this, either, because I have, but it's ultimately stupid. Don't act as if suddenly adjusting your typing of your brother and Sam or whoever you're retyping as ISFp will do much to change your existence, are you expecting to suddenly win the lottery?

    I will scream if you dissect this sentence by sentence. Do not attempt to pass over my meaning. Do not become a little bitch to get out of it. Do not mock me. I've been operating on the knowledge that you are genuine, if fucked up, which is a lot more than I can say for a lot of people, and thus I am addressing you so. I also feel an affinity to you because you have blood coming out of your ass, and the feeling of desperation you seem to exhibit at times mirrors my own. I do respect you, in spite of your scavenger qualities, so don't use your reply as an excuse to bullshit me, or I will discard it. I don't want to compete with you, I want you to understand. You have bitch slapped me before for which I was later grateful, and I want to return the favor. It would be a bleeding shame if this was all a wasted effort. So please tell me why your opinion is worth anything.

  22. #22
    crazedrat's Avatar
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    Edit: Okay, here you are
    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I feel that the writing comparison was strangely apt. However I don't really see him as having Si, or the S dichotomy. In my experience there is definitely a distinction you can make between S and N, even if it seems rather rudimentary and MBTI-ish.

    And what would that distinction be here? In what way does Sam exhibit Ni? Why doesn't he exhibit Si? You haven't said. You've only said that he does, infact, not exhibit Si. This is the same thing Sam does. Your point is implicit, and you treat this implicitness as meaningful. in contrast, a Ni type bases their point on immediate experience and context.

    I see the differences between him and some of the INFps here as having to do with language and each person's corresponding faculty with it. There's an observable difference when people become accustomed to employing language with great precision, rather than embellishment or seemingly inadequate attempts to establish their abstract ideas. I've seen IxFps with undeveloped (and sometimes even developed) language skills floundering a bit in their own spit, metaphorically, and I see Sam's general style as an example of this tendency.
    That is a speculative alternative explanation which mainly serves to circumvent the more direct explanation, which is that he is ISFp. But remember: not only does his writing style not resemble other INFps on this board, but it does resemble yours. That part remains unexplained. Why would his writing resemble yours so much? I have no reason to believe the differences in his writing style compared with other INFps come from him being inexperienced in writing. What reason do you have to believe this? Other than your unwavering assumption he is not ISFp, which drives you to this alternative explanation?

    Strangling people contextually and rigidly like you were in a mental fistfight while dissecting every sentence because you can't deign to try to understand someone's general meaning is not a hallmark of Ni, it's something any type can engage in when they are locked in a rigid thought/communication pattern they can't/won't get out of.

    using immediate experience to define terms is different from obsessing. B&D actually obsesses quite a bit. As much as myself or Strrrng. And your wad of text here is really massive. I am speaking to the way B&D structures his words and assumes meaning, not to the amount of words he uses on a given topic, or the amount of effort he puts into a post.

    I can think of plenty of INFps who don't engage in that sort of thing, krae being a good example of a similar INFp to Sam, and of which the language phenomenon I attempted to describe is readily observable. silverchris, Baby, redbaron, glamourama, Scarlettlux, and Starfall are also examples of INFps that I can think of off the top of my head that don't do this.
    I agree, these INFps do not obsess. Good thing that's not my point, otherwise you might of made me look really stupid.
    My point is Ni types speak to context and immediate experience. Their words are shaped around the immediate experience, they're reactions to the immediate experience. They define their terms through references to other terms being immediately dealt with, which is why I keep repeating the word context. Contrast this with relying on the inherent meaning of a word for its interpretation.
    The main way I type is by reading a persons words or hearing them speak, and I consider it a reliable way to type people.

    Just because you happen to have personal intellectual resonance with strrrng doesn't mean everyone is going to develop the communication style you've chosen.
    now you are reverting to misrepresenting me. Why are you trying to make me look so absurd?
    And your brother...now he's ISFp, oh the revelations? Why are you always relegating a type to him? To try to justify his existence and/or his relation to you in meaningful terms, taking comfort in the fact that people make a bit more sense with a reference point like Socionics?
    this might have a shred of meaning if you had even knew my brother or anything about how I really feel about him
    He sounds pretty crazy regardless. Take into account that some people just aren't going to make very good examples of type. Your brother's behavior is not going to suddenly make a shitload of sense because you decided to slap a type on him, unless your perception of types is vastly disorted and fucked up. I know you are capable of more honesty with yourself which is why this is annoying.
    now you are just showing how arrogant and presumptuous you are
    I'm sure you know and can see clearly that Gul deals with his inability to relate to people and insecure self image by thinking up a world where a 16th of the population loves to emotionally accommodate him while he's going around passively attention whoring, when in reality it's a lot more complicated than that, and no, Si is not all about him. I am confident that you are perfectly capable of relegating that example/approach/phenomenon to a wider viewpoint with a myriad of people, and notice its downfalls, so don't bullshit me that that's about Ni/Se either. I think we all need to step back sometimes and stop justifying so many of our life problems with various Socionics principles. I'm not saying I've never done this, either, because I have, but it's ultimately stupid. Don't act as if suddenly adjusting your typing of your brother and Sam or whoever you're retyping as ISFp will do much to change your existence, are you expecting to suddenly win the lottery?
    still going far off into a baseless presumption about my motivations..
    I will scream if you dissect this sentence by sentence. Do not attempt to pass over my meaning. Do not become a little bitch to get out of it. Do not mock me. I've been operating on the knowledge that you are genuine, if fucked up, which is a lot more than I can say for a lot of people, and thus I am addressing you so. I also feel an affinity to you because you have blood coming out of your ass, and the feeling of desperation you seem to exhibit at times mirrors my own. I do respect you, in spite of your scavenger qualities, so don't use your reply as an excuse to bullshit me, or I will discard it. I don't want to compete with you, I want you to understand. You have bitch slapped me before for which I was later grateful, and I want to return the favor. It would be a bleeding shame if this was all a wasted effort. So please tell me why your opinion is worth anything.
    I wonder if you sound like your father..
    ok, done.
    After a thorough reading there is almost nothing about B&Ds type / use of functions in your post, but first a misinterpretation of my thoughts and then alot of baseless speculation on my hidden motivations..
    Last edited by crazedrat; 01-01-2010 at 05:43 AM.
    INTp

  23. #23
    Creepy-female

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    And what would that distinction be here? In what way does Sam exhibit Ni? Why doesn't he exhibit Si? You haven't said. You've only said that he does, infact, not exhibit Si. This is the same thing Sam does. Your point is implicit, and you treat this implicitness as meaningful.

    Yes, because you don't have to prove everything abstractly has a "why" or a meaning to know it's there. This isn't type related. I don't have to make a case to chime in about my experience with Sam and what type I think he is.

    in contrast, a Ni type hasn't made their point until they've qualified their terms.


    You even do it here. You're contradicting yourself in this manner. This statement is in itself is an implicit assumption. Are you not an Ni type? You make assumptions based on a trend you see in Sam's writing, and post here vaguely alluding to it, assuming everyone will accept your meaning. But the only "evidence" you've used is mindlessly dissecting a small post of his here into sentences, and referring vaguely to the working behavioral phenomenon that you see. Do you not think that others who have had extensive interaction with Sam might want to add their *implicit* opinions just as well, not wanting to make a "case" of it? Why is making a case necessary, anyway? You haven't done it. Your "brief consideration" written earlier does not constitute an acceptable "case", and I will stand by that.

    That is a speculative alternative explanation which mainly serves to circumvent the more direct explanation, which is that he is ISFp. But remember: not only does his writing style not resemble other INFps on this board, but it does resemble yours. That part remains unexplained. Why would his writing resemble yours so much? I have no reason to believe the differences in his writing style compared with other INFps come from him being inexperienced in writing. What reason do you have to believe this? Other than your unwavering assumption he is not ISFp, which drives you to this alternative explanation?

    It is a direct explanation, and one that has to do with Sam's upbringing. From talking with him and interaction on stickam, he has not had a typical education. I'm not saying shit about his intelligence, but I do believe what he has been exposed to influences his style. Yes, it's easier to slap a type label than try to explain this. My question is, why would you do this? And yes, I am questioning your motivations, because I tend to think they play into the creation of this thread and the subsequent retypings.

    Properly defining terms is different from obsessing. B&D actually obsesses quite a bit. As much as myself or Strrrng. And your wad of text here is really massive. I am speaking to the way B&D structures his words and assumes meaning, not to the amount of words he uses on a given topic, or the amount of effort he puts into a post.

    The phenomenon I described encompasses structure and meaning as well as amount of words and effort. If you did not understand that then my attempted elaboration on my views were pointless.

    I agree, these INFps do not obsess. Good thing that's not my point, otherwise you might of made me look really stupid.
    These people speak to context and immediate experience. Their words are shaped around the immediate experience, they're reactions to the immediate experience. They define their terms through references to other terms being immediately dealt with, which is why I keep repeating the word context.

    I disagree. I think that they often reference things implicitly, and I see their style as similar to Sam's. Because it's not simply context or abstraction when we speak of functions. That's similar to saying Si is all about comfortable environments. It's too vague. There's not going to be a black and white divide upon who uses their reactions to immediate experience and who doesn't. I don't think we able to correlate that so immediately to functions.

    now you are reverting to misrepresenting me. Why are you trying to make me look so absurd?

    I don't see it as misrepresenting you. I see it as you taking on a competitive intellectual style that biases your judgment towards people's type and function usage.

    this might have a shred of meaning if you had even knew my brother or anything about how I felt about him

    I don't have to know your brother personally to have a solid idea that he is not a good type example.

    now you are just showing how arrogant and presumptuous you are

    You haven't demonstrated a substantial preference for anything else.

    still going far off into a baseless presumption about my motivations..

    Yes, whatever, I'm blabbering. No, that's bullshit. I may not be 100% but I do have quite a few solid points that you are refusing to acknowledge. Just don't bother responding at all if they're so baseless.

    I wonder if you sound like your father..

    No, he doesn't sound like this; that's me, and that was genuine. I guess I was mistaken when I thought we could communicate on the same terms.
    Well.

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    lol @ isolating a sentence then saying it's implicit.
    if you want a better explanation on why I think sam is ISFp, refer to earlier posts.

    this is the clearest and most important part of your post above. It represents my position well, and then contrasts it with your position. I will repost it:


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    [INFps] speak to context and immediate experience. Their words are shaped around the immediate experience, they're reactions to the immediate experience. They define their terms through references to other terms being immediately dealt with, which is why I keep repeating the word context.
    Contrast this with relying on the inherent meaning of a word for its interpretation.


    I disagree. I think that they often reference things implicitly, and I see their style as similar to Sam's. Because it's not simply context or abstraction when we speak of functions. That's similar to saying Si is all about comfortable environments. It's too vague. There's not going to be a black and white divide upon who uses their reactions to immediate experience and who doesn't. I don't think we able to correlate that so immediately to functions.
    To fully appreciate the point, I think you need to acknowledge the concept of degree. All types will have to use both forms of meaning to some degree in constructing a sentence. If we can't get past that part, I don't think we'll ever get anywhere. On the same note, all people will have to use both sensing and intuition in order do anything in life, even to get up and take a piss. Yet I am still liberal enough to assign a person a type at all. It's really the same concept. And I see B&D overwhelmingly emphasize the one form of meaning over the other. (Let us remember this was not my only reason for typing him ISFp.).
    Beyond that, I can only say the two forms of meaning I'm discussing are legitimate and correlate with the functions, and also with peoples types. If you don't buy it, and this is where you're really hung up, we can discuss that part in detail.. if you show a genuine interest.
    Last edited by crazedrat; 01-01-2010 at 07:25 AM.
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    It's not so much that I think he's SEI as it is that I don't think he values Se.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    I see the same phenomenon in every post you make. No context, just implicitness. Infact you often ignore context. Actually, the argument you just made relies on Si. Tell me, what is Si? Do you know?
    This actually is Te PoLR related. Te-PoLR/Ti-HA have a weak sense of objective fact and have a tendency toward assuming that just stating what they think holds weight. Overconfident Ti with lack of Te.
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    no, it is Te polr with Si. Te polr with Ni looks more like stretching definitions.
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    dolphin, attempting to undermine peoples' apparently inflated notions of Ni, does not disprove that sam is Si. You excused blatant differences in writing with an explanation about sam being exposed to certain "education," and proceeded to use me as an extreme example to "illustrate" that not every IEI has to be some intellectual pedant (i.e. "rigidly contexualizing..." etc. -- this is a straw-man). Bullshit. You speak of crazed's motivations for making this thread, but at least it was based on a personally determined difference with someone whom he was considering as an identical; your entire post was a direct attack on his position on the matter.


    Now, as for a brief functional analysis, consider the involved/abstract dichotomy. Ni and Si are both perceptual functions – specifically Pi functions, which deal with the nature of internal perceptions. Si, being involved, views perception as something existent on an integral level with observable conditions; this is why, when describing ideas, it can assume an air of implicitness, because the assumption is that the perception it is describing exists directly. Contrast that to Ni, which is focused on how perception can manifest. There is nothing implicit with Ni, except for the belief that however a perception is currently manifesting, is not the "complete" picture; and thus it attempts to contextualize in order to arrive at the most refined perception of a situation.
    Last edited by strrrng; 01-01-2010 at 06:04 PM.
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    Now, as for a brief functional analysis, consider the involved/abstract dichotomy. Ni and Si are both perceptual functions – specifically Pi functions, which deal with the nature of internal perceptions. Si, being involved, views perception as something existent on an integral level with observable conditions; this is why, when describing ideas, it can assume an air of implicitness, because the assumption is that the perception it is describing exists directly. Contrast that to Ni, which is focused on how perception can manifest. There is nothing implicit with Ni, except for the belief that however a perception is currently manifesting, is not the "complete" picture; and thus it attempts to contextualize in order to arrive at the most refined perception of a situation.
    I just think you are trying too hard. I am probably just a softer INFp then you are. Generally speaking I am simply not a sensor, I don't get psychological stimulation from manipulating external objects. Quite base-ly, I am not a 'doer' enough to be a sensor. Any decision I make is based upon my intuition and not how I relate to external objects. My internal state of being is all dependant on how I am treated psychologically, both good or bad. (prone to both upliftment and discouragement)

    Te-PoLR/Ti-HA have a weak sense of objective fact and have a tendency toward assuming that just stating what they think holds weight.
    I sense objective facts, I am just not detailed or focused in this area. Re-read my 16type adventures story. I understand people objectively very well, just in a generalized way. And objective facts seems pointless to me since the 'objective facts' are always changing depending on what people are doing and the meaning they're trying to get out of their actions. I am a pure introvert and an intuitor, all outside objects simply drain me of my energy.

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    It's not so much that I think he's SEI as it is that I don't think he values Se.
    ... I think it's pretty stupid how people think IEIs want to be raped or physically violated or something. Maybe you don't mean this, but I know you are thinking this because of my liberal rants about empowering the underdog in society and not being an alpha male prick to others. Most people's bodies aren't hard-wired to find real aggression erotic, it's all in their fucking heads. I view accurate socionics as more, subtle and realistic than that. When most people say ' they like it rough' they're talking about some sort of mind play or roleplay, they don't mean they like actual physical pain inflicted on their bodies although maybe some are wired this way? *shrug* They just want a dominant masculine man but still touch them tender.

    Any pain helps weaken the ego so I guess that's why some people like that sort of stuff?

    But no I don't like physical aggression, I like mental aggression sometimes depending on the situation but I do not like my boundaries to be invaded w/o my permission, and I don't idealize male thugs who simply try to destroy and dominate everything. I went through my own 'oooh a real bad boy phase' but I kinda just grew out of that. This isn't an idealization lol, I really just do not enjoy it except for some head fantasy.

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    I do love Sam a lot and feel a great affinity for him, and I feel that the writing comparison was strangely apt.
    Aw, lol. I love you too. They're just going to think our affection for each other is some sort of isfp-isfp identical relationship though.

    However I don't really see him as having Si, or the S dichotomy. In my experience there is definitely a distinction you can make between S and N, even if it seems rather rudimentary and MBTI-ish.
    Yeah! This is exactly what I was thinkin.' Extroverts get energy from other people, sensors get energy from outside objects. I don't get energy from other people or outside objects. I get energy from my own thought processes and others' ideas and neon gay inner world shit.

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    Not impossible, IMO. He has a very explicit way of confronting stereotypes; his method is to expose commonalities between his own perceptions and those that he attributes to the "big Other," and to try to reconcile them with a more ideal approach.

    He also has a somewhat blithe attitude of wanting to achieve lofty ideals, to "have his cake and eat it too," so to speak, and speaks about the conflicts inherent in trying to do so; Betas are generally quick emphasize their own personal compromises or sacrifices, almost as badges of honor or objects of dark amusement. He has a sadness to him, an overtly expressed loss of innocence, if you will, that makes me think more of Alpha than Beta; Betas tend to under-emphasize any kind of innocence they might have, and let slip their "fall" in a more dark manner, almost like they are admitting to repression on the sly or something.
    That's a fairly accurate, unbiased description of what I am about but I don't think you really proved anything either way.

    Okay let's put it this way: How do I dual-seek Ne?

    Four posts in a row so I'll let others respond before commenting again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Now, as for a brief functional analysis, consider the involved/abstract dichotomy. Ni and Si are both perceptual functions – specifically Pi functions, which deal with the nature of internal perceptions. Si, being involved, views perception as something existent on an integral level with observable conditions; this is why, when describing ideas, it can assume an air of implicitness, because the assumption is that the perception it is describing exists directly. Contrast that to Ni, which is focused on how perception can manifest. There is nothing implicit with Ni, except for the belief that however a perception is currently manifesting, is not the "complete" picture; and thus it attempts to contextualize in order to arrive at the most refined perception of a situation.
    Do you honestly believe that the primary difference between Si and Ni is that the one accepts without question the objective reality and ubiquitousness of present stimuli and the latter is all wisely harping on how that represents just a part of what's actually out there? Si may probe or play with how others react to the same thing, but I doubt you can say that people using Si are prone to expecting everyone to react the same way to what they perceive as real and impactful simply because they accept the objective existence of what brings it out in them. Hell, it's not like you've never heard a song and thought it was awesome then recommended it to a friend and they were all 'meh' about it. There's probably nothing that resonates with everybody. You've got to watch them, listen in, and find out what affects them. People have a similar basis but it's the nuances that are interesting to dig out.

    Also, Sam is awesome.
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  34. #34
    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola's Avatar
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    Oh dude. No fucking way. Not a chance. Totally love him though ^_^
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    BUT! You're Austrailian. Types go the other way round down under don't they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I just think you are trying too hard. I am probably just a softer INFp then you are. Generally speaking I am simply not a sensor, I don't get psychological stimulation from manipulating external objects. Quite base-ly, I am not a 'doer' enough to be a sensor. Any decision I make is based upon my intuition and not how I relate to external objects. My internal state of being is all dependant on how I am treated psychologically, both good or bad. (prone to both upliftment and discouragement)
    Do you even understand what I wrote? I'm not trying to be condescending, but this response is completely irrelevant to what I described about Ni and Si.

    And what is this idea about sensors deriving stimulation from external objects? Sounds like a massive stereotype.

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Do you honestly believe that the primary difference between Si and Ni is that the one accepts without question the objective reality and ubiquitousness of present stimuli and the latter is all wisely harping on how that represents just a part of what's actually out there?
    It isn't that Si blindly accepts "ubiquitousness of stimuli"; it's that they assume that whatever perception arises, is integrally tied to concrete conditions, and thus represents something about those conditions; Ni isn't about concrete conditions, it focuses on potential perceptions that can reframe the conditions. Si can obviously change, as it is dynamic, and encompass many aspects of situations; but my point was that it is always a gradual assimilation of internal sensory perceptions and their relationships, whereas Ni is focused on abstract representations of internal perceptions.

    Si may probe or play with how others react to the same thing, but I doubt you can say that people using Si are prone to expecting everyone to react the same way to what they perceive as real and impactful simply because they accept the objective existence of what brings it out in them.
    Now you're misconstruing what I said. Si isn't simply some one-dimensional lens of perception.

    But if Si observes a reaction in something, it will only assume its relevancy within the conditions that it occurred. Ne works with this because it finds latent qualities within the conditions and develops a picture of how the object of perception could manifest. So, it establishes a set of potential variables that are filtered through the Si context.

    Hell, it's not like you've never heard a song and thought it was awesome then recommended it to a friend and they were all 'meh' about it. There's probably nothing that resonates with everybody. You've got to watch them, listen in, and find out what affects them. People have a similar basis but it's the nuances that are interesting to dig out.
    No shit. And Si very much can establish an encompassing picture about someone by seeing how they react across a breadth of different scenarios; the point is that their perceptions will always be related to the concrete conditions in those situations.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Having known ISFps, INFps, and people like BulletsandDoves... I can say without reservation that there's no chance in hell he's ISFp or Alpha.

    Have you read his stories..? They're basically love-letters to Se. ("...And then so-and-so beat me with his big penis," lol etc.)

    Have you observed the people that he says he relates with..? Predominately beta.

    After what he's contributed to this forum, for anyone here to think that bulletsanddoves values Si and Ne--frankly, it speaks to either poor observational skills, or poor understanding of the Socionics personality types.

    I sense that this is another case of people distorting various aspects of Socionics, because they do not have the correct benchmarks for each Sociotype. That is, if they really knew what an ISFp was--or for that matter, what a beta NF was--they wouldn't be bringing this up.

    The only other viable personality type for Sam is ENFj.
    Last edited by JuJu; 01-01-2010 at 06:24 PM.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I dunno. I'm still leaning towards IEI-Fe for now; the "Alpha half of Beta" or whatever.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I dunno. I'm still leaning towards IEI-Fe for now; the "Alpha half of Beta" or whatever.
    The Alpha half of beta..?

    What do you mean?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    The Alpha half of beta..?

    What do you mean?
    Your subtype gives you a slight leaning towards whichever quadra it overlaps with.

    So Isha and I being accepting-subtype Delta Irrationals are the Alpha side of Delta with the silliness and peace/comfort focus over assumedly more conscientious producing-subtype Delta Irrationals.

    At least that's the theory. I have no real opinion as to its validity, btw.

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