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Thread: Problems with VI? Here is the solution

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    Default Problems with V.I.? Here is the solution...

    Why is Visual Identification so difficult?
    In my opinion the reasons are:

    1.) People try V.I. without having enough experience.
    2.) People try V.I. without using subtypes.
    3.) People try V.I. with only two subtypes in mind.

    The first problem is obvious: you can only use V.I. successfully if you have already typed a lot of people so that you can compare them to the person you want to type.

    The second problem occurs because people of the same type can look very different. On the one hand the appearence of a person not only depends on type but also on the appearence of his parents and his race. On the other hand it depends on subtypes. Distinguishing between different main types is not like distinguishing between cats and dogs! It is rather like distinguishing between different cars!
    A Toyota, a Honda and a Hyundai may look very similar - like an LII, an ILI and an ILE. There are some Toyotas that look like Hondas. There are some Hondas that look like Hyundais. There are some LIIs that look like ILIs. We have to use subtypes, there is no other choice...

    There is the system of accepting and producing subtypes which is used by many people on this forum. The problem is that people of one and the same subtype still may look very different so V.I. is difficult. Another problem is that Gulenko and Meged/Ovcharov seem to describe different persons! The descriptions are self-contradictory in a way...

    Some people on this forum had the idea that the descriptions could be used to get an idea how DCNH subtypes look like. Here is the thread. This makes sense, indeed.


    Now where is the solution of the V.I. problem?


    During the last months I thought a lot about DCNH subtypes and how to distinguish between them by V.I.. I found a really interesting fact that should solve many or most problems - under the condition that people are familiar with the DCNH system.


    1.) All subtypes with a strengthened base function have round faces.
    2.) All subtypes with a strengthened creative function have square faces.
    3.) All subtypes with a strengthened ignoring function have rectangular faces.
    4.) All subtypes with a strengthened demonstrative function have oval faces.


    Examples:
    I am Ni-LII. Ni is LII's demonstrative function so I have a rather oval face (compared to other LIIs).
    Victor Gulenko is Ne-LII. Ne is LII's creative function so he has a rather square face (compared to other LIIs).
    Dick Cheney is Te-LSE. Te is LSE's base function so he has a rather round face (compared to other LSEs).
    George W. Bush is Se-LSE. Se is LSE's demonstrative function so he has a rather oval face (compared to other LSEs).
    Michael Schumacher is Ti-SLI. Ti is SLI's demonstrative function so he has a rather oval face (compared to other SLIs).
    Barack Obama is Fe-IEI. Fe is IEI's creative function so he has a rather square face (compared to other IEIs).

    I really hope there are some people on this forum who can confirm my observations.

    And no, I don't want to talk about the types of the above mentionend celebrities.
    Last edited by JohnDo; 02-26-2010 at 04:41 PM.

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    strrrng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    1.) All subtypes with a strengthened base function have round faces.
    2.) All subtypes with a strengthened creative function have square faces.
    3.) All subtypes with a strengthened ignoring function have rectangular faces.
    4.) All subtypes with a strengthened demonstrative function have oval faces.
    Dumb. I'm an Ni-IEI H subtype, and my facial structure is not round at all.

    Examples:
    I am Ni-LII. Ni is LII's demonstrative function so I have a rather oval face (compared to other LIIs).
    Victor Gulenko is Ne-LII. Ne is LII's creative function so he has a rather square face (compared to other LIIs).
    Dick Cheney is Te-LSE. Te is LSE's base function so he has a rather round face (compared to other LSEs).
    George W. Bush is Se-LSE. Se is LSE's demonstrative function so he has a rather oval face (compared to other LSEs).
    Michael Schumacher is Ti-SLI. Ti is SLI's demonstrative function so he has a rather oval face (compared to other SLIs).
    Barack Obama is Fi-IEE. Fi is IEE's creative function so he has a rather square face (compared to other IEEs.
    You realize that DCNH applies to valued functions, not strong functions. H-LII = Si-LII, C-LSE = Ne-LSE and so on.


    I agree with your previous points about VI and such, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Dumb. I'm an Ni-IEI H subtype, and my facial structure is not round at all.
    If you are Ni-IEI you should have a round face in comparison to other IEIs. So what does your face look like if it is not round at all? :redface:

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentine Meged & Anatoly Ovcharov
    The intuitive subtype appears as a quiet, tactful, languid and diffident individual. They seem torn off from reality, inert and poorly adapted to life. However, such impressions are erroneous, for they possess a fine intuition, which aids them in establishing useful connections and obtaining support from influential people. Seem externally serene but sentimentally are disposed to experience moodiness and bouts of melancholy. While their voice at times seems monotonous they often induce a light surprise, even full interest, from the interlocutor. Outwardly are pensive, slightly strained/intense.. Prone to emanate sadness masked in sardonic irony. Speech is measured, smooth and intimately heart-felt. On their face they almost constantly exude a polite half-smile that easily wins people’s trust. Gestures are modest, shy. Gait is ponderous, elegant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Gulenko
    Facial expression is typically interrogative, and they seem calm, dreamy, and contemplative. Their line of behaviour is frequently passive. Romantic spirits. They live in the world of illusions, and they attempt to avoid negative emotions. They can be optimistic. They shrink away from conflict situations and support compromises. They are restrained in their clothing, elegant and refined. They can fulfill the functions of an abstract thinker, work in psychology and psychotherapy.
    Which description fits better? Guleko's or Meged/Ovcharov's?


    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    You realize that DCNH applies to valued functions, not strong functions. H-LII = Si-LII, C-LSE = Ne-LSE and so on.
    Harmonizing subtype means that and are stronger than usual. Nevertheless, an LII with strengthened Si in comparison to other LIIs has still weak Si. So the name Si-LII doesn't really fit and I prefer the name Ni-LII. But let's say H-LII do avoid misunderstandings.
    Last edited by JohnDo; 12-29-2009 at 09:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    If you are Ni-IEI you should have a round face in comparison to other IEIs. So what does your face look like if it is not round at all? :redface:
    I don't fully know how my facial structure compares to the rest of Ni-IEIs, but I just don't think it can be categorized as "round."

    Which description fits better? Guleko's or Meged/Ovcharov's?
    I find both accurate, but Meged/Ovcharov's is more astute overall.

    Harmonizing subtype means that and are stronger than usual. Nevertheless, an LII with strengthened Si in comparison to other LIIs has still weak Si. So the name Si-LII doesn't really fit and I prefer the name Ni-LII. But let's they H-LII do avoid misunderstandings.
    True enough. But ultimately, valued functions are more significant than unvalued functions, when it comes to determining psychological dispositions and behavior.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    *Sigh*

    As someone who has extensively studied both DCNH as well as JohnDo's physiognomic theory, I just want to categorically state that I do not believe that subtype has any significant effect on physical features. Furthermore, while the correlation of the Meged/Ovcharov and Gulenko standard-model subtype descriptions to DCNH descriptions is interesting, I do not believe they should be relied upon as accurate descriptions of the DCNH subtypes.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    You realize that DCNH applies to valued functions, not strong functions. H-LII = Si-LII, C-LSE = Ne-LSE and so on.
    Is this your own theory, or did you read it somewhere (if you read it somewhere, I'd like to read it myself)? I theorized the same thing myself when I was first studying the DCNH system, but I have come to realize that it is probably not the case -- whether an element is valued or not plays a role in how it manifests behaviourally, but there does seem to be a difference between, for example, Fe-Dominant LSIs (Paul Teutul Sr.) and Te-Dominant LSIs (Jack Bauer).
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Is this your own theory, or did you read it somewhere (if you read it somewhere, I'd like to read it myself)? I theorized the same thing myself when I was first studying the DCNH system, but I have come to realize that it is probably not the case -- whether an element is valued or not plays a role in how it manifests behaviourally, but there does seem to be a difference between, for example, Fe-Dominant LSIs (Paul Teutul Sr.) and Te-Dominant LSIs (Jack Bauer).
    It's my own idea based on study and observation. An LSI will always be stronger in Te than Fe, yes; but, when it comes to attitudes and behaviors – especially in group settings, where types will instinctively employ quadra values – I think a D-LSI will exhibit a more pronounced inclination towards Fe than Te. I do think Te could work as a sort of back drop for Fe though, by securing the objective processes so that the internal ones could be affected; but it still won't be as prominent IMO.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    since valuing a certain function automatically means the devaluing of another (or two, actually), it would seem to me that they would be equally significant, i.e., "psychological dispositions and behavior" displaying the valuing of Te (which automatically means the devaluing Fe-Ti), would be just as significant as "psychological dispositions and behavior" displaying the devaluing of Te (which automatically means the valuing of Fe-Ti.)
    Well yeah, behaviors and attitudes that display valuing and devaluing of functions can be equally significant -- in the same way that -1 and 1 are equally significant integers. But, when it comes to what is consistently manifest, in the context of DCNH, I think the valued functions play a more significant role, as they are the preferred medium of expression (if devalued functions made a conspicuous presence, it wouldn't be in a positive sense, i.e. a behavior actively employed towards a goal).
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    i'm still trying to wrap my head around DCNH though.
    how good is this theory, does it go head-to head with socionics?
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 07490 View Post
    how good is this theory, does it go head-to head with socionics?
    It's basically just an extension of the standard subtype system; it divides the Rational and Irrational subtypes into two more each: the Rational subtype gets divided into Dominant (more extraverted) and Normalizing (more introverted), while the Irrational subtype gets divided into Creative (more extraverted) and Harmonizing (more introverted).

    It's more of an expansion pack than a remake.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    It's basically just an extension of the standard subtype system; it divides the Rational and Irrational subtypes into two more each: the Rational subtype gets divided into Dominant (more extraverted) and Normalizing (more introverted), while the Irrational subtype gets divided into Creative (more extraverted) and Harmonizing (more introverted).

    It's more of an expansion pack than a remake.
    hmm thanks for the reply Krig,This subtype doesn't seem to conflict or describe the same thing as Socionic subtype.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    It's my own idea based on study and observation.
    Ah, cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    An LSI will always be stronger in Te than Fe, yes; but, when it comes to attitudes and behaviors – especially in group settings, where types will instinctively employ quadra values – I think a D-LSI will exhibit a more pronounced inclination towards Fe than Te. I do think Te could work as a sort of back drop for Fe though, by securing the objective processes so that the internal ones could be affected; but it still won't be as prominent IMO.
    I don't think this is necessarily the case. People certainly prefer to use their valued functions, but this is not always possible or even desirable. Jack Bauer, for example, frequently uses his Te to figure out the most efficient way to stop terrorists from blowing up America. As much as he may want to display Fe, his job requires Te more than Fe. His sense of duty causes him to suppress his desire to indulge in his valued Fe, in favour of his more needed unvalued Te. Over the years, this results in the Te-Dominant subtype.

    (And before anyone complains that Jack Bauer is only fictional, I'm using him as a theoretical example, not practical evidence. )

    Paul Teutul Sr., on the other hand, has no such demands in his environment. He has found that he can get his way by displays of emotion (Fe), and does so, ignoring Te. Over the years, this has resulted in an Fe-Dominant subtype.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    While I do think there's a link between type and physical features it's really not a good idea to make solid typings on.
    What you end-up doing is having a bunch of people arguing how so and so totally looks like a ___ and no real way to dispute it, followed by people claiming superiority on "vi skills", which than turns into a big straw man argument party.
    I think it's all fun when we make guesses on peoples types on the VI threads, but it's just that, guesses.

    btw I disagree with all your VI examples outside of Gulenko, who typed himself, the other four are probably Betas (maybe Gamma for Cheney) IMO...
    EII INFj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    As someone who has extensively studied both DCNH as well as JohnDo's physiognomic theory, I just want to categorically state that I do not believe that subtype has any significant effect on physical features.
    It has. Believe it or not. Be open-minded and I accept your self-typing. Be ignorant and I question your self-typing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Furthermore, while the correlation of the Meged/Ovcharov and Gulenko standard-model subtype descriptions to DCNH descriptions is interesting, I do not believe they should be relied upon as accurate descriptions of the DCNH subtypes.
    Maybe they are not accurate but they are definitely a good approximation. It was your idea by the way. So why don't you accept the fact that it might have been a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Jack Bauer, for example, frequently uses his Te to figure out the most efficient way to stop terrorists from blowing up America.
    Fictional characters are absolutely useless for this topic. This thread is about V.I. and you will certainly agree that the actors are more often than not other types than the fictional characters...

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Over the years, this has resulted in an Fe-Dominant subtype.
    Subtypes are only useful if they are not a result of years. Types are inborn so subtypes have to be inborn, too. Otherwise the subtype system would be useless...

    We already discussed about that months ago. Would you please consider the possibility that subtypes cannot change over time and are not a result of the environment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84
    btw I disagree with all your VI examples outside of Gulenko, who typed himself, the other four are probably Betas (maybe Gamma for Cheney) IMO...
    It is not important if you agree or disagree. Just check the persons you know personally. Then you will be able to confirm my observations - if your know enough about DCNH and all the stuff...

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    Or maybe, just maybe, VI doesn't work at all.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    It has. Believe it or not. Be open-minded and I accept your self-typing. Be ignorant and I question your self-typing...
    I am open-minded in the sense that I am always willing to be convinced by solid evidence and sound reasoning. You have so far been incapable of producing either. I post on this forum to further my understanding of socionics, not have circular debates with crackpots.

    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    Or maybe, just maybe, VI doesn't work at all.
    Indeed. The only aspects of V.I. that I believe has any significant validity are facial expression and body language, and even then it's subjective and difficult to quantify.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    I've noticed that indeed the different subtypes have similar faces.

    There are more then 2 subtypes, yes.

    For the rest... it's too difficult to get to know a really huge sample of one type, so you could make any confirmations. so...

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    I think he's talking about strong functions getting stronger. I mean, an H ENTp for instance, I can't imagine getting stronger at Si, and then having less use for a dual. Even if an H ENTp seeks a C ISFp, that's like an ENTp seeking its dominant function. Idk, maybe I'm wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    You have so far been incapable of producing either. I post on this forum to further my understanding of socionics, not have circular debates with crackpots
    Are you mentally retarded or something?

    1.) I started this thread 2 days ago so how can it be a circular debate? We already discussed about changing subtypes but not about the above mentioned facial structures...

    2.) How should I be able to improve your knowledge?! I'm just talking about my observations and conclusions. Type enough people and you will see...

    3.) You always talk about fictional characters which is obviously a useless approach. The types of the actors are different so V.I. will never work there...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    it's too difficult to get to know a really huge sample of one type, so you could make any confirmations
    Why is it difficult? If you type 100 people and the pattern fits everywhere this should be confirmation enough.

    I am (relatively) sure about the types of approximately

    - 20 relatives
    - 30 former classmates
    - 10 former teachers
    - 10 former comrades in the army
    - 20 fellow students
    - 10 professors
    - 10 pals
    - 10 acquaintances
    - 20 celebrities

    The above mentioned pattern fits everywhere.
    There are certainly some mistypings in my sample. Nobody is perfect. But the tendency is clear.
    Last edited by JohnDo; 12-31-2009 at 10:02 AM.

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    I will start with some base function subtypes (round faces)...

    N-LII: Colin Powell and Frank Walter Steinmeier


    H-SEI: Dmitri Medwedew and Sigmar Gabriel


    C-ILE: Jacques Villeneuve


    C-SEE: Bill Clinton


    D-LSE: Josef Stalin and Dick Cheney

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    Some demostrative function subtypes with oval faces:

    H-LII: Osama bin Laden and Che Guevara


    C-LSE: George W. Bush


    N-SLI: Michael Schumacher

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    Some ignoring function subtypes with rectangular faces:

    C-ILI: Roland Koch


    N-ESE: David Coulthard
    Last edited by JohnDo; 02-26-2010 at 04:51 PM.

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    Some creative function subtypes with square faces:

    C-LII: Victor Gulenko and Hillary Clinton


    N-ILE: Aushra Augusta


    D-IEI: Barack Obama


    H-LSE: Helmut Kohl
    Last edited by JohnDo; 02-26-2010 at 04:57 PM.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Are you mentally retarded or something?

    1.) I started this thread 2 days ago so how can it be a circular debate? We already discussed about changing subtypes but not about the above mentioned facial structures...
    We have in fact had this discussion before, here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...e-model-4.html

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    2.) How should I be able to improve your knowledge?! I'm just talking about my observations and conclusions. Type enough people and you will see...
    I have, and I have observed no such pattern of facial structure. You're over-simplifying.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    3.) You always talk about fictional characters which is obviously a useless approach. The types of the actors are different so V.I. will never work there...
    I have no interest in your physiognomic brand of V.I.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Why is it difficult? If you type 100 people and the pattern fits everywhere this should be confirmation enough.

    I am (relatively) sure about the types of approximately

    - 20 relatives
    - 30 former classmates
    - 10 former teachers
    - 10 former comrades in the army
    - 20 fellow students
    - 10 professors
    - 10 pals
    - 10 acquaintances
    - 20 celebrities

    The above mentioned pattern fits everywhere.
    There are certainly some mistypings in my sample. Nobody is perfect. But the tendency is clear.
    Of the celebrity typings you posted above that I recognize, I disagree with 8 out of 10 of them, with one "maybe". With a record that unreliable, I have no reason to take your word that the people you know personally are accurately typed.

    For the record, in my opinion:
    Colin Powell = LSI
    Bill Clinton = ESE
    Josef Stalin = LSI
    Dick Cheney = LSI or LIE
    Bin Laden = IEI
    Che Guevara = IEI
    George W. Bush = SLE
    Hillary Clinton = LSI

    Obama = I think he's IEI, but haven't entirely ruled out IEE yet.

    Gulenko = LII
    Augusta = ILE
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    We have in fact had this discussion before, here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...e-model-4.html
    But that was a discussion about round and oval faces. Now I have found out a more detailed pattern: creative function subtypes have rather round faces compared to demonstrative and ignoring function subtypes. But compared to base function subtypes the faces of creative function subtypes are rather square. If you aren't interested then you will probably always be bad at V.i.


    Of the celebrity typings you posted above that I recognize, I disagree with 8 out of 10 of them, with one "maybe". With a record that unreliable, I have no reason to take your word that the people you know personally are accurately typed.
    That's why typing celebrities is a rather pointless exercise. How do you know that your typings are more accurate than mine? So we agree on 2 of them. Maybe I got the other 8 right, maybe you got them all right, maybe we both got them all wrong, maybe you and me got 4 of them right. Useless discussion...

    Colin Powell = LSI
    Hillary Clinton = LSI
    At least we agree that Ti is their base function, IxTj. I have never seen an LSI politician. I'm not even sure if LSI politicians exist...

    Bill Clinton = ESE
    At least we agree that Se and Fe are his strongest functions, ESFx. Our dual? I don't think so...

    Josef Stalin = LSI
    Dick Cheney = LSI or LIE
    At least we somehow agree on xSTj. Stalin is often typed LSI on this forum because Rick De Long thinks so. I'm sure he isn't LSI...

    Bin Laden = IEI
    Che Guevara = IEI
    Good example of the usefulness of subtypes. Both show a lot of Ni, that's why you type them IEI. I'm quite sure they are Ni-LII so their strong Ni can be explained by their subtype...

    George W. Bush = SLE
    So we agree that Te and Se are his strongest function, ESTx. You say SLE, I say Se-LSE.

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    George W. Bush is NOT SLE. He's Te dominant. I bet he's more likely LIE (valued Se) than LSE. He doesn't fit in Delta.


    @JohnDo
    Are you familiar with model A?
    Last edited by HaveANiceLife; 12-31-2009 at 05:55 PM.
    ESTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Why is Visual Identification so difficult?
    In my opinion the reasons are:

    1.) People try V.I. without having enough experience.
    2.) People try V.I. without using subtypes.
    3.) People try V.I. with only two subtypes in mind.

    The first problem is obvious: you can only use V.I. successfully if you have already typed a lot of people so that you can compare them to the person you want to type.

    The second problem occurs because people of the same type can look very different. On the one hand the appearence of a person not only depends on type but also on the appearence of his parents and his race. On the other hand it depends on subtypes. Distinguishing between different main types is not like distinguishing between cats and dogs! It is rather like distinguishing between different cars!
    A Toyota, a Honda and a Hyundai may look very similar - like an LII, an ILI and an ILE. There are some Toyotas that look like Hondas. There are some Hondas that look like Hyundais. There are some LIIs that look like ILIs. We have to use subtypes, there is no other choice...

    There is the system of accepting and producing subtypes which is used by many people on this forum. The problem is that people of one and the same subtype still may look very different so V.I. is difficult. Another problem is that Gulenko and Meged/Ovcharov seem to describe different persons! The descriptions are self-contradictory in a way...

    Some people on this forum had the idea that the descriptions could be used to get an idea how DCNH subtypes look like. Here is the thread. This makes sense, indeed.


    Now where is the solution of the V.I. problem?


    During the last months I thought a lot about DCNH subtypes and how to distinguish between them by V.I.. I found a really interesting fact that should solve many or most problems - under the condition that people are familiar with the DCNH system.


    1.) All subtypes with a strengthened base function have round faces.
    2.) All subtypes with a strengthened creative function have square faces.
    3.) All subtypes with a strengthened ignoring function have rectangular faces.
    4.) All subtypes with a strengthened demonstrative function have oval faces.

    I really hope there are some people on this forum who can confirm my observations.

    And no, I don't want to talk about the types of the above mentionend celebrities.
    This is all coming from a point of relative ignorance, but do subtypes truly exist? I know that there are differences within all the types which I ascribe to functions being a continuum (MBTI-esque, with each function carrying a weight) and therefore compatibility or lack of it with other people would be dependent on your resultant distribution. If that is the case, then fair enough. However, this goes against the idea that e.g. an Ni-LII can exist because that implies a strength in an ignored function and therefore brings upbringing in as an influence (which is to be expected). If the subtypes are a result of nurture rather than nature, then this VI method could not possibly stand.

    ps: I don't believe VI is possible in any case other than judging facial expression, and even then, a single/few photographs do not contain nearly enough information.

    pps: I have also not put too effort into reading up on subtyping, I am only just reading that right now, so this may all be misguided.
    LII?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post

    For the record, in my opinion:
    Colin Powell = LSI
    Bill Clinton = ESE
    Josef Stalin = LSI
    Dick Cheney = LSI or LIE
    Bin Laden = IEI
    Che Guevara = IEI
    George W. Bush = SLE
    Hillary Clinton = LSI

    Obama = I think he's IEI, but haven't entirely ruled out IEE yet.

    Gulenko = LII
    Augusta = ILE
    These are exactly how I view them too, except for Hillary whom I think is more likely ESI>LSI, and Obama who I have little doubt is anything but a Beta NF (IEI>EIE)
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    Bin Laden as IEI and George Bush as LSE is really spot on. george bush isn't sle lol. te te te ewww.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveANiceLife View Post
    George W. Bush is NOT SLE. He's Te dominant. I bet he's more likely LIE (valued Se) than LSE.
    If my typing (Se-LSE) is correct then it is his subtype which makes him look Se-valuing. Subtypes with strengthened demonstrative or ignoring function are tricky. That's the main reason for many or most mistypings I think...

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveANiceLife View Post
    @JohnDo
    Are you familiar with model A?
    Of course I am. Does it look different?

    Quote Originally Posted by buckland
    If the subtypes are a result of nurture rather than nature, then this VI method could not possibly stand.
    True. I see subtypes as a result of nature whereas habits are a result of nurture.

    Quote Originally Posted by buckland
    ps: I don't believe VI is possible in any case other than judging facial expression, and even then, a single/few photographs do not contain nearly enough information.
    There are some other possibilities. LSEs are often fat. ILEs are almost always slim. SEIs are often small. LIIs are often tall. SLIs are almost always athletic...

    But it depends on subtypes:
    D-LSE and H-LSE: often fat
    C-LSE and N-LSE: often slim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    These are exactly how I view them too, except for Hillary whom I think is more likely ESI>LSI, and Obama who I have little doubt is anything but a Beta NF (IEI>EIE)
    Obama's way too eloquent and gifted at verbal debate to be IEI. Definitely seems beta though.

    And as much as I dislike being associated with Bin Laden, yes, he seems likely IEI. He speaks in a whisper apparently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    These are exactly how I view them too, except for Hillary whom I think is more likely ESI>LSI, and Obama who I have little doubt is anything but a Beta NF (IEI>EIE)
    And this is why I'm so confident in my typing ability -- the people I respect come to pretty much the same conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Obama's way too eloquent and gifted at verbal debate to be IEI. Definitely seems beta though.
    "Eloquent"? Have you seen him without a teleprompter?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    And this is why I'm so confident in my typing ability -- the people I respect come to pretty much the same conclusions.
    That doesn't mean anything. One problem is that Augusta mistyped a lot of people but her mistypings are still widespread just because she invented socionics. Another problem is that Rick DeLong has a lot of questionable typings on his website which are unquestioned accepted by some people on this forum...

    I'd like to ask a question: How many LSIs do you know personally? I know at least 10 who come into my mind right now: my father, 2 fellow students, 1 former landlord, 3 former classmates, 1 former comrade, 1 former teacher, 1 docent. So I know D-, C-, N- and H- LSIs personally. I think you have a wrong conception of this type. LSIs are neither as cruel as Stalin or Cheney nor are they as smart as Hillary Clinton or Colin Powell. Most LSIs just do their job. They don't desire power like Stalin or Cheney. They don't have as much charisma as Hillary Clinton.
    Last edited by JohnDo; 03-21-2010 at 04:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Obama's way too eloquent and gifted at verbal debate to be IEI. Definitely seems beta though.
    While I would agree that introverts don't tend to be as gifted in that department I also think that, if someone is determined to achieve something, they can work on their weak spots and develop the skills needed through perseverance

    All in all, I don't think Obama is a gregarious speaker, he has a fairly calm and monotonous demeanor, very different than, say, Clinton (whom many agree is at least Fe dominant). Nor does he possess the natural restless nature of an Ej or the energetic spontaneity and fluctuation in energy levels as an Ep (SLE George W Bush, probably)

    I also did a bit of research and discovered that, while in college, Obama was a solitude seeker. His friends claimed that he rarely left his dorm on his free time.
    People who work with him at the White House have stated that he often goes on walks by himself to clear his mind. While this doesn't necessarily mean "introvert" it does seem like he requires a certain degree of solitude which wouldn't be unusual for an IEI...

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    And this is why I'm so confident in my typing ability -- the people I respect come to pretty much the same conclusions.
    aww thanks! I respect your opinions too, one of the most informed posters here imo
    Last edited by Marie84; 01-02-2010 at 09:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    George Bush as LSE is really spot on. george bush isn't sle lol. te te te ewww.
    How so? Do you think he's his fathers identical or even kindred?

    His father, George HW Bush, comes across as a Te dominant. Very professional, serious, straight lined demeanor. No joking, gesticulating, slurring of words like George W Bush. Most Te dominants take their work *very* seriously

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    Do you think he's his fathers identical or even kindred?
    kindred.

    Bush Sr.: quite obviously LIE. Rectangular face -> N-LIE
    Bush Jr.: somewhere between LSE and SLE. Oval face -> C-LSE or D-SLE. I'm sure he is C-LSE because a D-SLE I know personally really isn't like him.
    Last edited by JohnDo; 03-21-2010 at 04:29 PM.

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    I will try to find some characteristic Americans. Nobody on this forum seems to know German politicians or Formula 1 drivers...

    Victor Gulenko and Al Gore: C-LII

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    You may be right there, John. Correction. You are right. What do you do - you VI them first or do you talk with them/read something about them in the press?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You may be right there, John. Correction. You are right. What do you do - you VI them first or do you talk with them/read something about them in the press?
    A mixture of both. I am currently reading "Our Choice: A Plan to Solve the Climate Crisis" by Al Gore. He is obviously an Alpha-NT. Then I use my V.I. skills to say C-LII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    A mixture of both.
    Thanks for the answer.

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    George H.W. Bush and Guido Westerwelle (Vice Chancellor of Germany): N-LIE

    To be honest, I'm not quite sure... they are the same type but might be C-LIE... would you call their face oval or rectangle? I definitely need to type more LIEs...


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