Batman

[xerx]

In comic books there isn't always a great deal of consistency, so I did my best and tried to visualize each character as an archetype or something. I looked for the most compelling characterizations: The Killing Joke, The Dark Knight, etc. > everything else. I'm not basing any of these typings on the craptastic Tim Burton films.


ISTj- Batman

ISTj- Commissioner Gordon
(identity w/ Batman)

ENFj- Ras Al Ghul
(wants Batman to become his heir. His vision for a better, more ordered world complements Batman's desire. Duality. However, Batman must oppose him for pursuing radical, sometimes genocidal solutions. Frequent megalomania and temper tantrums.)

ESTp- Catwoman
(aggressor; fierce friendly rivalry; strong ideological convictions; mirror w/ Batman)

ISFj- Alfred Pennyworth
(Batman's conscience / Role function)

ESTj- Two Face
(was the incorruptible, law abiding district attorney of Gotham before the tragedy that turned him half-evil).

INFp- The Scarecrow
(uses people's deepest fears as a weapon against them. fascinated by the pathology of phobias)

INTj- The Riddler
(in modern adaptations, he tends to be somewhat sophisticated, insular, lacking in force and with suggestive Fe. Batman's intellectual sparring partner, look-alike.)

ESFj- Poison Ivy
(deadly mix of seduction and assertiveness; acts like a big sister to Harley Quinn.)

ENTj- Mr. Freeze
(tragic and compelling character whose sole motivation is revenge against the world that wronged him. Schwarzeneger should be impaled on an icicle for debauching him.)

INFj- The Penguin
(meticulously adheres to arcane imperatives of social behaviour, fancying himself a "gentleman" of crime. Polite, sophisticated and extremely well spoken, though eschewing any colorful charisma, and having little force behind his actions.)

ISFp- Harley Quinn
(Joker's therapist whom he seduced into becoming his side kick. Only an ISFp can make spousal abuse seem cute. :redface

- The Joker
(represents Batman's shadow, the deepest and most repressed part of his psyche. Batman's greatest rival. No other villain comes close to successfully questioning the validity of Batman's philosophical assumptions about justice, tempting him to sacrifice his morals just to stop him.

The Joker is volatile and entirely unpredictable. He doesn't care about power, wealth, or even himself. He is the embodiment of chaos: internal, external, intellectual, you name it, which is the exact opposite of ego.

Seen as a force of nature rather than a real person, which is often how someone sees their PoLR.)


Robin- who cares?

[somavision]

No expert on the batman comics and I don't know how correct you are, I do like your analysis though, especially regarding the joker.

[ArchonAlarion]

Ni/Se seems pretty discordant imo, but I guess I can see where an Ne polr would feel that Ne was chaotic, mocking, slippery, and ruinous.

[Krig the Viking]

Dude, I think you've nailed these types. I agree with all of them, which is rare!

On Two-Face: Could the coin-flipping be a sign of weak, valued Ne and Fi? He uses the coin to choose when he is faced with conflicting ethical possibilities -- in other words, the coin takes the place of his dual (poorly). On practical TeSi matters (how to execute the decisions he's made with his coin) he trusts his own judgement.

[xerx]

Dude, I think you've nailed these types. I agree with all of them, which is rare!

On Two-Face: Could the coin-flipping be a sign of weak, valued Ne and Fi? He uses the coin to choose when he is faced with conflicting ethical possibilities -- in other words, the coin takes the place of his dual (poorly). On practical TeSi matters (how to execute the decisions he's made with his coin) he trusts his own judgement.

That sounds excellent. I was having trouble explaining the coin thing. I considered that he might be a Ti or Fi dominant who's base function completely broke down, and that his pathology made him rely on an external source for his judgment. Bleh!

But your explanation works better socionically, since he only consults the coin after he sets up the context using his extroverted function .

[xerx]

Ni/Se seems pretty discordant imo, but I guess I can see where an Ne polr would feel that Ne was chaotic, mocking, slippery, and ruinous.

Yeah, types do tend to see things as a gestalt of relativism, BUT they gravitate towards intellectual certainty. Ne isn't like that at all.

Joker criticizes people's faith in society at a fundamental, conceptual level. And what he criticizes is specifically the false-certainty related to Ni:

I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan." But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!

Note: this type of certainty isn't the same as ideological certainty.

His saying that he turns the plan on its head, ie. finding loop-holes to exploit, is something any creative Ti can relate to. I haven't read enough to be sure which is the more consistent characterization: ENTp or ENFp, so I'll leave it at that.

Some ENTPs do self-type as 6s, so I guess the joker would probably have to be C-ENxP in DCNH.

Don't forget Jack Napier is a total psychopath, which might have twisted his TIM into something unrecognizable, and beyond any hope of redemption,

-he tortured and killed Robin,
-made Batgirl into a paraplegic,
-killed Commissioner Gordon's wife,
-estimates that he's killed thousands of people,
-at one point he regained his sanity, only to lose it again from the memories of all the people he's killed.

so he could really be an ISFj for all we know.

[ArchonAlarion]

Okay, I get you know.

Intuition itself is sorta chaotic anyways. Hmm, yes, ideas my precious.

[Marie84]

I don't really know much about Batman outside of the last 2 films, but I agree that Batman is LSI (though I've heard ESI suggested) and The Joker is ILE-ish.
Gordon in the films seemed ILI-ish
Not sure about the rest...

[xerx]

The Joker's sense of humor is pretty ENTp. When he's well written his psychopathic jokes are only funny to him, which is ENTp in and of itself.

Besides, the Joker doesn't just challenge Batman physically. He challenges him philosophically, pulling his premises out from under him. He shows Batman time and again that most of Gotham isn't worth protecting; that it's full of corruptible people. Even Batman's one man ideological crusade is futile because the people will turn against him in a heart beat when it becomes convenient for them. Smells more like supervision.

[Logos]

Why is this in Alpha?

[Wynch]

I ask myself this same question. Unless someone can give me a good reason why it belongs here, I'm going to move it for order's sake.

[Absurd]

They are all Alpha, that's why.

[xerx]

Why is this in Alpha?

I ask myself this same question. Unless someone can give me a good reason why it belongs here, I'm going to move it for order's sake.

Why so serious?

[Wynch]

Why so serious?

I'm just trying to keep things where they belong. This really isn't related to alpha other than the fact that you have a couple characters typed as alphas.

Is there an actual reason to keep it in Alpha?

[krieger]

Batman strikes me as Serious (Te/Fi values). His motives (revenge for his childhood, eradication of crime) are Te/Fi, too. I might be seen calling him ISFj instead.

[xerx]

Batman strikes me as Serious (Te/Fi values). His motives (revenge for his childhood, eradication of crime) are Te/Fi, too. I might be seen calling him ISFj instead.

His desire to eradicate crime stems directly from his experience as a child. He doesn't want anyone to go through the same experience he went through, which is an ideological rather than personal motivation.

In Batman Begins, he was going to take revenge on the man who killed his parents, by killing him, but decided against it at the last moment.

He has a merry/beta persona as Bruce Wayne, but has a no-nonsense personality as Batman in order to strike terror into the hearts of his opponents.

Chameleonism is also more of an Fe trait in general, I'd think.

He chose to be a social outcast, which is a common theme in Ti egos and not common for serious quadras.

[Logos]

Why so serious?

Should I not be?

[krieger]

His desire to eradicate crime stems directly from his experience as a child. He doesn't want anyone to go through the same experience he went through, which is an ideological rather than personal motivation.

Even the way you put it it sounds very personal. From a Ti type's perspective, seeing a bunch of statistics on crime is as good a motivation to become a crime fighter as a negative personal experience is. The childhood issue is the backbone of all of batman's motives. To an ISTj it would just be a detail. A trivialty.

In Batman Begins, he was going to take revenge on the man who killed his parents, by killing him, but decided against it at the last moment.

Mercy: strong F functions... Not in any way incompatible with ISFj and a terrible argument for ISTj. You don't honestly think they are paragons of mercy, do you?

He has a merry/beta persona as Bruce Wayne, but has a no-nonsense personality as Batman in order to strike terror into the hearts of his opponents.

The Bruce Wayne persona was mostly based around social activity. Again this fits ISFj perfectly and ISTj less so.

Chameleonism is also more of an Fe trait in general, I'd think.

He chose to be a social outcast, which is a common theme in Ti egos and not common for serious quadras.

No idea what you're refering to with any of this.

Now let me make my argument for ISFj and against ISTj: an ISTj would counter crime using governmental institutions. Batman on the other hand, tackles the crime on individual terms. He makes his contribution to the fight on crime using the resources he has available to him. There is not a shred of collectivism or political lobbying involved in his methods. All of the materials available on quadra characteristics agree that Batman's methods are of the individualist Gamma flavor rather than of the collectivist Beta flavor.

[xerx]

Even the way you put it it sounds very personal. From a Ti type's perspective, seeing a bunch of statistics on crime is as good a motivation to become a crime fighter as a negative personal experience is. The childhood issue is the backbone of all of batman's motives. To an ISTj it would just be a detail. A trivialty.

I don't know about that. I think you're underestimating the impact a negative personal experience can have. I don't think anyone would treat the murder of their parents as a triviality akin to some statistic.

I guess an Alpha NT (who sees the big picture) might be inclined to, but then the subconscious Fe will do the trick and hit them with the full weight of the tragedy, like what happened to Einstein.

Mercy: strong F functions... Not in any way incompatible with ISFj and a terrible argument for ISTj. You don't honestly think they are paragons of mercy, do you?

In my understanding, which I gleaned from Expat, Gamma quadra is completely unlikely to show mercy to someone who has wronged them personally.

Drieser's main focus is to reveal ethical problems and eradicate them. In this light the only relations that make sense to him are those in which he sees for himself and others the least probability of trouble.



Therefore it is likely that he forms very categorical precepts of (some Russian word) that primarily list what a person is incapable of doing ISFjs believe in the mottos: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”; and “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”; That is, if a person has never done anything bad to you, you should not treat him badly. However, if you see in him the tendency to do something bad, you have every right not to trust him, and it is your duty to warn others about him.

The Bruce Wayne persona was mostly based around social activity. Again this fits ISFj perfectly and ISTj less so.

I don't know about that. I've read the interpretation that Bruce Wayne is just a character he portrays, and that Batman is who he really thinks of himself as being.

Bruce Wayne pretends to be a spoiled rich boy -- who indulges in gross debauchery -- as an act to throw people off Batman's secret identity. I suppose this begs the question of whether he's pretending to be in his own quadra.

No idea what you're refering to with any of this.

Changing one's social role, wearing social masks, being a social chameleon. All of that is more Fe valuing and not so much Fi base.

Now let me make my argument for ISFj and against ISTj: an ISTj would counter crime using governmental institutions. Batman on the other hand, tackles the crime on individual terms. He makes his contribution to the fight on crime using the resources he has available to him. There is not a shred of collectivism or political lobbying involved in his methods. All of the materials available on quadra characteristics agree that Batman's methods are of the individualist Gamma flavor rather than of the collectivist Beta flavor.

I thought he couldn't politically lobby people because Gotham is a corruption infested hell hole. Aren't betas supposed to be the revolutionary ones that take things into their own hands?

Also wouldn't someone from a serious quadra (Especially someone with suggestive ) be more likely to counter crime by going to the available government institutions?

[krieger]

I don't know about that. I think you're underestimating the impact a negative personal experience can have. I don't think anyone would treat the murder of their parents as a triviality akin to some statistic.

It was a bit of a rethorical exaggeration. The point is that an ISTj is unlikely to swing all the way to the opposite side and turn the issue into the guiding motivation of their life. The way the story flashes back to the events in a sentimental way is just completely unlike the way Ti types experience life.

In my understanding, which I gleaned from Expat, Gamma quadra is completely unlikely to show mercy to someone who has wronged them personally.

The display of mercy is no less inconsistent with an ISTj typing. Which is more likely: that batman at the last moment decided that he isn't a petty murderer for F reasons, or that he found some pragmatic reason to leave the criminal alive.

I don't know about that. I've read the interpretation that Bruce Wayne is just a character he portrays, and that Batman is who he really thinks of himself as being.

Bruce Wayne pretends to be a spoiled rich boy -- who indulges in gross debauchery -- as an act to throw people off Batman's secret identity. I suppose this begs the question of whether he's pretending to be in his own quadra.

It's easiest for him to play a role that is similar to his real self in at least some respects. The social activity qualifies. "Gross debauchery" looks like something sensing and merry so under your own argumentation that would be an indication of him being non-merry.

Changing one's social role, wearing social masks, being a social chameleon. All of that is more Fe valuing and not so much Fi base.

In my experience as a Ti type, I don't think it's something that comes natural to us at all. An ISFj would have an easier time at it even if the whole thing isn't part of their values (which is debatable to begin with).

I thought he couldn't politically lobby people because Gotham is a corruption infested hell hole. Aren't betas supposed to be the revolutionary ones that take things into their own hands?

Revolutionary, yes. Taking things in their own hands, not really because they are most characteristically group- and political movement oriented of all quadras.

Also wouldn't someone from a serious quadra (Especially someone with suggestive ) be more likely to counter crime by going to the available government institutions?

Well, like you said the institutions weren't there or weren't powerful enough. They would have to be built from the ground up. An ISTj would be perfectly in his element at it.

[xerx]

It was a bit of a rethorical exaggeration. The point is that an ISTj is unlikely to swing all the way to the opposite side and turn the issue into the guiding motivation of their life. The way the story flashes back to the events in a sentimental way is just completely unlike the way Ti types experience life.

The display of mercy is no less inconsistent with an ISTj typing. Which is more likely: that batman at the last moment decided that he isn't a petty murderer for F reasons, or that he found some pragmatic reason to leave the criminal alive.

Not being a Ti dominant, I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer all that, but why wouldn't an ISTj relent? Especially about something too ambiguous for him to systematize and which he was confused about, like human relations.

An ISFj otoh would have known the value of "the piece of shit that shot my parents" for what it really was. Ethical types are fully confident in rationally assessing their actions towards others.

It's easiest for him to play a role that is similar to his real self in at least some respects. The social activity qualifies. "Gross debauchery" looks like something sensing and merry so under your own argumentation that would be an indication of him being non-merry.

In my experience as a Ti type, I don't think it's something that comes natural to us at all. An ISFj would have an easier time at it even if the whole thing isn't part of their values (which is debatable to begin with).

This might be a criterion to which quadras are more applicable than clubs. I haven't known any hedonistic ISFjs. My ESFp brother is a sex-maniac that parties every night, but even he is critical of hedonistic people and overconsumption.

Revolutionary, yes. Taking things in their own hands, not really because they are most characteristically group- and political movement oriented of all quadras.

That general trend is true in my experience, but why would it preclude some betas from acting individually? Getting to keep a secret identity and being a billionaire also lets someone transcend such stereotypes.

I'd think that Te/Fi vigilantes cooperate with the laws in place or work closely with the police. Batman is extremely radical in his methods and is de facto above the law. He kidnaps people at whim. He spies on people. He beats the crap out of criminals and uses whatever other means he can to subdue them. He attacks entire SWAT teams to prevent them from being killed or causing damage. He immediately knows what's right and he'll enforce it himself. ISFjs need input for that.

He's perceived by society (and most of the police force) as a freak that interrupts social order and attracts other freaks to the city.

The ends justify the means, but the only thing he won't do is kill, because he believes it's wrong. He wouldn't even kill the Joker when he was barely alive in his arms. And yes, lots of ISTjs aren't killers and stick to that system.

Well, like you said the institutions weren't there or weren't powerful enough. They would have to be built from the ground up. An ISTj would be perfectly in his element at it.

Wouldn't something like that be better suited to an ESTj like Harvey Dent?


Of course, I'm basing all this on The Dark Knight and some comics. Maybe you have some other source in mind?

[xerx]

In Batman Begins, he was going to take revenge on the man who killed his parents, by killing him, but decided against it at the last moment.

I just watched Batman Begins and he was actually going to kill him without hesitation before someone else did (doh! I guess that invalidates that whole line of argument). Though he leaves and comes back to Gotham City having reformed and accepted a higher system of justice, as well as a mandate not to murder.

[Cybernetic]

Catwoman/Selina Kyle is SEE in her 2002 self-titled series from what I can tell.

[para]

Harley Quinn was typed SEE in some thread, but i'm not sure. Seems more Alpha SF

[Desert Financial]

Batman + Joker = Supervision relationship.

Joker has clear Fi PoLR...

[Desert Financial]

It was a bit of a rethorical exaggeration. The point is that an ISTj is unlikely to swing all the way to the opposite side and turn the issue into the guiding motivation of their life. The way the story flashes back to the events in a sentimental way is just completely unlike the way Ti types experience life.

I knew an ISTj who kept his hair short, quote: "because the military brainwashed me."

I knew another ISTj who refused to address his own emotions because, quote: "the real world."

Causal Deterministic cognition is a bitch.

[Desert Financial]

Really the whole Batman narrative speaks to Causal Deterministic cognition.

Batman does what he does because he experienced childhood trauma when his parents were killed.

The Joker does what he does because he fell into a vat / Batman made him that way / his father abused him.

Quinn does what she does because the Joker abuses her.

The heavy-handed, simple, and repetitive way each character's backstory is retold speaks to the Causal Deterministic themes of Batman. It is a story about how the environment of Gotham impacts its residents.

The center piece is that the Joker and Batman give rise to each other. Order and chaos, yin and yang.

Gulenko stated that CD types have a predisposition towards being brainwashed. It is a hard pill to swallow. For anyone having trouble understanding why, Batman demonstrates Gulenko's conclusion pretty well.

With significant introspection and self work, the tendency to blame the environment for your decisions can be overcome.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

Batman as a concept is an inherently beta concept. Bruce Wayne is a literal aristocrat who feels like he is the only one who can be trusted with the responsibility for changing the city for the better.

Batman, like many superheroes, is a fascistic story about one person taking the law into their own hands and doling out justice as they see fit.

In this way Batman is an LSI, using his vast money, resources, intelligence, and even physical strength to hold the citizens of Gotham to his own version of justice (since the law is pointless in anyone else's hands).

The Joker's main goal is to get Batman to break his own code. He wants to see Batman fall apart and reveal him to be a hypocrite.

I think if this is a beta story Joker represents the hidden insecurities inside Batman's self-assured dedication to his Ti code. I'd say Joker is an ILE.

I think there's a good case for Catwoman being an EIE but it's a little difficult to accept since she doesn't really use Ni all that much.

I see her more as a SEE constantly stepping all over Batman's Ti. I guess it just depends on what terms they're on in the story.

I think Nightwing is a SEE, he gets sick of Batman's constant control over his life and needs to escape.

I think Damian is an SLE.

Harley is obviously an ESE.

Riddler is ILI or ILE, I think he is a logical intuitive with creative logic.

I actually think Poison Ivy is the real EIE, she is seductive, charming, and has a plan to change the world.

Ra's Al Ghul is EIE for the same reason.

Talia seems like an SLE.

I can't think of anymore...

[Marep]

Batman: LSI maybe, although the idea of him as a merry type is hard to swallow.

Joker and Riddler: both ILEs

Catwoman: some Se dom

Harley Quinn: SEI in the comics and the 90s cartoon, ESE in the movies.

Mr Freeze: ILI (that Fi HA)

Penguin: probably SEE (his valuing Te is obvious, at least)

[EUDAEMONIUM]

Yeah, I agree that there are times where Batman changes types.

I think it depends on the writer.

I think if Frank Miller writes him, he's an SLE.

If other writers are writing him he can seem more LSE.

The mastermind batman who has a contingency plan for everything sounds like some Ne-PoLr wet dream.

Edit: Penguin being SEE is interesting, I never thought about that.