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Thread: Unconditional love

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    Default Unconditional love

    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional?

    Do you think you're capable of loving another person unconditionally?

    Do you or have you ever loved someone unconditionally?

    Do you or have you ever felt you were loved unconditionally?

    ...etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire View Post
    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional?

    Do you think you're capable of loving another person unconditionally?

    Do you or have you ever loved someone unconditionally?

    Do you or have you ever felt you were loved unconditionally?

    ...etc.
    i do think that love can be unconditional.

    unconditional love is something i strive to give and there are moments when i can.

    i love my children unconditionally.

    i do feel that i am currently loved unconditionally.

    but it's not like unconditional love is anything like easy.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    unconditional love is for irrationals

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire View Post
    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional?
    I do not think so. Love must be for a particular person; the closest thing that's for everyone is altruism. And anything that applies to some people (say those you have met) and not others (say those you haven't met) is conditional... technically.

    I think that "unconditional love" usually means that all of the conditions are trivial and don't need to be consciously met - duality would help greatly with this.



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    In the spiritual sense yes. I think it is possible to 'love yourself unconditionally' as you are pretty much stuck with you until you die, so the most important relationship you can ever have is the one with yourself!

    However, with other people, I just don't think that's possible. There are all things we want people to do when we love them, and we feel that if they really cared about us, they'd lose some of that selfishness and go along with what we want them to do, make compromises etc. And that is a condition. But is a condition that will nab ourselves a long-term, healthy, committed relationship. You can take a cynical perspective that yes, while we all technically die alone, and we will feel 'lonely' most of our lives, it is nice in this physical time-space reality to adventure with those that help us feel a little less alone, a little more real, like we are here. And we all need to be touched that way.

    I mean I can imagine having a relationship with a celebrity or Chris Crocker type as a total nightmare. Too narcissistic. They take the 'independence card' way too far, and would get defensive about the simplest of tasks. OMG YOU DON'T REALLY LOVE ME YOU CAN'T JUST LET ME BE ME CAUSE YOU ASKED ME TO TAKE OUT THE TRASH BUT IM AN ARTIST AND YOU DON'T SEE THE REAL TRUE ME AHHHHH. THIS IS OVER! YOU GAVE ME THE BEST 15 SECONDS OF MY LIFE BUT YOU JUST DON'T GET ME, SAM, YOU NEVER HAVE!

    (That's how I picture what it would be like if I slept with Jason Mraz)

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    Interesting.

    My response is that I think that unconditional love is possible and that love in its purest form is unconditional.

    And "yes" to the others as well.

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    Yes to all

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    Believing in unconditional love is like believing in Santa Claus.

    But maybe I'm just a jaded old codger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire View Post
    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional?

    Of course.

    Do you think you're capable of loving another person unconditionally?

    Yes.

    Do you or have you ever loved someone unconditionally?

    Yes.

    Do you or have you ever felt you were loved unconditionally?

    Definitely

    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    Believing in unconditional love is like believing in Santa Claus.

    Last edited by Park; 12-22-2009 at 02:49 AM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    WOW.

    I am officially a grinch.

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    Aww, it's ok LV.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    I don't like the idea of anything being unconditional, really. Complete intimacy is a nice idea, and probably achievable with the right person; but I don't think I would describe such a relationship as "unconditional love," if I was actually involved in it. That would feel sterilizing.


    ~unconditional love as an abstraction of absolute conditions to give a sense of purpose to relationships~
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    You people have conditions in which to love your parents?! I don't think there is anything my parents/siblings could do to make me not love them. wtf.

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    There's a difference between genuine love and biological drives that find confirmation in social conditioning. No one is obliged to love their family.
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    I never said anyone was obliged. I just don't see how you couldn't. Whatever.

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    Well, I just mean more that, they're not inevitably destined to love family. And I think that a lot of people mistakenly think they do, without really understanding what it is.
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    I dunno. I was going to answer yes to this but then I started thinking about it. What if said person started beating you and did it repeatedly. Would you really keep on loving them? I think over time, that love would disappear. What if said person started raping and murdering little children? Would you still love them? Eh.... I'm thinking not so much.

    Which kinda brings to mind the question: does God love everyone unconditionally (for those who believe in God)? Why does the Bible say that God loved Jacob but hated Esau? (even before they were born and had done nothing to deserve either God's love or hate)
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I dunno. I was going to answer yes to this but then I started thinking about it. What if said person started beating you and did it repeatedly. Would you really keep on loving them? I think over time, that love would disappear. What if said person started raping and murdering little children? Would you still love them? Eh.... I'm thinking not so much.
    Yeah, I think this illustrates how unconditional love is in itself a condition, and has no real bearing on genuine care for someone else.

    Which kinda brings to mind the question: does God love everyone unconditionally (for those who believe in God)? Why does the Bible say that God loved Jacob but hated Esau? (even before they were born and had done nothing to deserve either God's love or hate)
    Hell no! I view that stuff as nothing more than a facile creation stemming from the collective unconscious, which gives some vague anchorage to the endlessly conflicted feelings and experiences of humanity. From this lofty "truth," the picture of familial love is painted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire View Post
    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional?
    Do you think you're capable of loving another person unconditionally?
    Do you or have you ever loved someone unconditionally?
    Do you or have you ever felt you were loved unconditionally?
    ...etc.
    Define LOVE!

    What are you referring to? Cuddly, worm feelings? Love as an inborn need? What direction? from outside or towards outside? How would you know you are being loved? How about that you love?

    The way I view it, love is a need. The need to love and to be loved. There are some actions that make you feel loved. From what was studied, there are 3 components: aid, comfort and acceptance. Now, you might have a preference that your need to be loved be fulfilled by a certain person but you can get that need met by more than one.

    As for conditionality, NVC teaches that if you don't do what you do out of that energy that pushes you to make life wonderful, you pay a price and the other person pays a price sooner or later. So the only way it works is if it is without conditions, without control, without the hope of reward or the fear of punishment.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Unconditional love is a parents job, and a spouses job. Something I will have to face, and not something everyone wants to face. I think a problem in this forum would be that people like us have answers to this question, but are basically much more young than knowledgeable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire View Post
    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional?
    Yes. This = central tenet of Christianity, for one thing.
    Do you think you're capable of loving another person unconditionally?
    Not yet. Most people could, I think, do something to be that would cause me to cease behaving at all lovingly towards them. As to whether or not I would still have some degree of affection towards them, I'm not sure, but I wouldn't consider my love completely unconditional, as that's a really high standard to live up to, and sadly, most people don't.

    Do you or have you ever loved someone unconditionally?
    Again, not yet. Maybe my brother.

    Do you or have you ever felt you were loved unconditionally?
    Hmmmm... my parents maybe?
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire View Post
    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional?

    Do you think you're capable of loving another person unconditionally?

    Do you or have you ever loved someone unconditionally?

    Do you or have you ever felt you were loved unconditionally?

    ...etc.
    Love itself is already conditional. Why do you love someone, because he's offering you something, good looks, nice words etc.

    But next to that, yeah I think that love can be pretty unconditionally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire View Post
    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional?

    Do you think you're capable of loving another person unconditionally?

    Do you or have you ever loved someone unconditionally?

    Do you or have you ever felt you were loved unconditionally?

    ...etc.
    Yes, Yes, Yes, No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    You think? Well, I guess some people can love their spouse no matter what happens, though I doubt they would stay with this person despite that, depending on what acts of treason they commit against them or their children...if that 'unconditional love' was put to the test.
    yeah. there are plenty of things a spouse can do, imo, to invalidate the contract of marriage. Including cheat, abuse, murder, withhold sex for long periods of time, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9
    This = central tenet of Christianity
    No offense, if you're religious and such, but I view the theological conception of absolute love to be a grand delusion and a powerful tool of manipulation. From this pretext, seemingly infinite divisions are made concerning what is right and wrong, deserving of rewards and punishments, etc. It both grants room for such things to be devised and justifies them because of its vague, ethereal nature. You can't have it both ways; either absolute love is absolute, or completely relative. And anyone with a basic understanding of philosophy should see the flaws in claiming the former, even if it sounds more noble than the latter. Either way, religion ends up being the train futilely chugging up the mountain in idealistic fervor, more or less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    No offense, if you're religious and such, but I view the theological conception of absolute love to be a grand delusion and a powerful tool of manipulation. From this pretext, seemingly infinite divisions are made concerning what is right and wrong, deserving of rewards and punishments, etc. It both grants room for such things to be devised and justifies them because of its vague, ethereal nature. You can't have it both ways; either absolute love is absolute, or completely relative. And anyone with a basic understanding of philosophy should see the flaws in claiming the former, even if it sounds more noble than the latter. Either way, religion ends up being the train futilely chugging up the mountain in idealistic fervor, more or less.

    In many religious/spiritual practices love is a mutual commitment to work with one another for a very specific aim. This 'work' carried out by the couple yields true results and vast internal change for both. Such practices are impossible without fidelity and compassion between man and woman.

    You seem to over-intellectualize things and you leave a wasteland of meaninglessness(vague and ethereal in nature) in your wake. You may argue with that now, but sometime down the road you'll agree with me... or you'll be in a mental institution. choice is up to you.

    Just my opinion though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    yeah. there are plenty of things a spouse can do, imo, to invalidate the contract of marriage. Including cheat, abuse, murder, withhold sex for long periods of time, etc.
    Well I guess unconditional love depends upon the person initially. We're all bad inside and capable of doing bad things, but I certainly don't prefer bad things to happen. I guess you can still love someone who murdered your family, doesn't mean you can really love em all that much if you tried.

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    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional?
    Yes

    Do you think you're capable of loving another person unconditionally?
    I am not sure. I'm not yet sure I can be in love. To fall in love sure, but to stay in love is something I'm not good at.

    Do you or have you ever loved someone unconditionally?

    Don't think so. Well, maybe my family, but it is more of a frustration/love kind of thing.

    Do you or have you ever felt you were loved unconditionally?
    Yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Love itself is already conditional. Why do you love someone, because he's offering you something, good looks, nice words etc.

    But next to that, yeah I think that love can be pretty unconditionally.
    Wrong kind of love?

    Anyway, if you play semantic and logic games, and restrict unconditional to... well, what it means, then no, I don't think it exists. If you take it at its spirit, though, "I don't love you because you buy me things and treat me like royalty; I love you because I do, because I want to see you always smiling, and I never want to see you hurt, lost, or in pain, because that's what you give me.", I think that exists, naturally.

    Basically, I'll expand what silverchris was saying... as you narrow the restriction on what "unconditional" is, the ideal becomes higher and higher, and, naturally, harder to keep to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waddlesworth View Post
    In many religious/spiritual practices love is a mutual commitment to work with one another for a very specific aim. This 'work' carried out by the couple yields true results and vast internal change for both. Such practices are impossible without fidelity and compassion between man and woman.
    Using love as a placeholder definition for collective effort means nothing. If people want to delude themselves into thinking they're in love because they work together towards a common goal, and establish solidarity along the way, fine; it has no bearing on the actuality of love.

    You seem to over-intellectualize things and you leave a wasteland of meaninglessness(vague and ethereal in nature) in your wake. You may argue with that now, but sometime down the road you'll agree with me... or you'll be in a mental institution. choice is up to you.

    Just my opinion though.
    Well, ok. I don't necessarily see how I over-intellectualized in this thread. Are you religious, or something?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire View Post
    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional?

    Do you think you're capable of loving another person unconditionally?

    Do you or have you ever loved someone unconditionally?

    Do you or have you ever felt you were loved unconditionally?

    ...etc.
    1. Yes.
    2. I think so, but it's hard to know for sure. I want other people to be happy, yeah. And to feel cared about.
    3. I think so.
    4. I thought I was, but it may have been much more conditional than I thought, which leads me to believe I know less about it than I had thought.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    sometimes I get the impression that I get tough love from my semi-dual, naive love from my benefactor, conditional love from my activator, and unconditional love from my dual, but it only seems that way because if my dual doesn't respect me I will only get attention from their id, which is effectively my conflictor, and I get all those really great emotional conflicts which spice up the relationship and build emotional dependence and the need for repeated closure...I guess they have no choice, so it really is unconditional :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    If someone I loved, loved murdered my family, I would only have pure hatred and would murder the person back because I am that sort of person. However, if my mother went crazy and murdered everyone but me, I would be emotionally scarred for life, possibly commit suicide, but I don't think I could possibly stop loving her, so scratch that.
    I think I would always love my mother too. and my father. and my brother. and my children. but that might be it. blood is thicker than water I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    No offense, if you're religious and such, but I view the theological conception of absolute love to be a grand delusion and a powerful tool of manipulation. From this pretext, seemingly infinite divisions are made concerning what is right and wrong, deserving of rewards and punishments, etc. It both grants room for such things to be devised and justifies them because of its vague, ethereal nature. You can't have it both ways; either absolute love is absolute, or completely relative. And anyone with a basic understanding of philosophy should see the flaws in claiming the former, even if it sounds more noble than the latter. Either way, religion ends up being the train futilely chugging up the mountain in idealistic fervor, more or less.
    Hmmm... I disagree. Absolute love as a theory doesn't necessarily invalidate action against the beloved, discipline, punishment, etc. It merely means that one individual is willing to do whatever that individual thinks is best for another individual, no matter what "what is best" is. So yes, there are lots of moral distinctions made under the umbrella of unconditional love, but if you accept the idea of universal morality, these moral distinctions have the status of fact; the moral distinctions made are no less natural than saying that a mountain is a certain number of feet high. The two may require totally different modes of measurement, but both are equally natural.

    Of course, if you don't believe that the moral distinctions people (who subscribe to unconditional love) make, then I can see why you'd think this way, unconditional love as a way to fool people into thinking that you'll love them no matter what, so that they'll cling to you no matter what, but then it's like bait and switch, cause you bring them in with the "unconditional love" bit, and then proceed to make love very conditional, insofar as one must live up to certain moral standards. Christianity would say that this is purely natural; it's not a contrivance of God's that certain moral states allow one to receive certain benefits of love, but rather certain benefits of love are naturally impossible to access without certain moral states.

    And yeah, I am religious. I'm a pretty bad Christian, but I am a Christian, 100%, born-again and all (although lately I'm not sure whether or not I believe in born-again-ness, at least as explained by most pastors that I know of).
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Hmmm... I disagree. Absolute love as a theory doesn't necessarily invalidate action against the beloved, discipline, punishment, etc. It merely means that one individual is willing to do whatever that individual thinks is best for another individual, no matter what "what is best" is.
    Well, if that's what it means, of what value is its claim of absoluteness? Individual perception will never attain such heights, and even unconditional devotion to the well-being of another person doesn't constitute genuine love; it's just an attitude.

    So yes, there are lots of moral distinctions made under the umbrella of unconditional love, but if you accept the idea of universal morality, these moral distinctions have the status of fact; the moral distinctions made are no less natural than saying that a mountain is a certain number of feet high. The two may require totally different modes of measurement, but both are equally natural.
    For one, I don't accept the idea of universal morality; why would I (or why do you)? To me, it's a grand presumption, and comparing the relative value of moral acts to mountain heights is, quite frankly, an insult to nature.

    Of course, if you don't believe that the moral distinctions people (who subscribe to unconditional love) make, then I can see why you'd think this way, unconditional love as a way to fool people into thinking that you'll love them no matter what, so that they'll cling to you no matter what, but then it's like bait and switch, cause you bring them in with the "unconditional love" bit, and then proceed to make love very conditional, insofar as one must live up to certain moral standards. Christianity would say that this is purely natural; it's not a contrivance of God's that certain moral states allow one to receive certain benefits of love, but rather certain benefits of love are naturally impossible to access without certain moral states.
    Yeah, I don't think it always begins as a tool for manipulation – the motivations behind its creation were probably genuine overall. I just think that, due to human nature, it inevitably becomes that, and its core meaning loses substance.

    The disclaimer about it "not being a contrivance of God" doesn't make it any less of a contrivance, albeit one of humans. I mean, claiming that "certain benefits of love are naturally impossible to access without certain moral states," in a religious context, just seems like an inverted way of saying "You can only achieve absolute love by following this moral code."
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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Well, if that's what it means, of what value is its claim of absoluteness? Individual perception will never attain such heights, and even unconditional devotion to the well-being of another person doesn't constitute genuine love; it's just an attitude.
    Christianity would say that this is where the miracle comes in. Yes, based on the people I know, I doubt that I or anyone I know would by ourselves achieve unconditional love. I take it as an article of faith that God, by some miracle (and a lot of time and effort on my part and God's), can cause me to manifest unconditional love, or create circumstances in which I would be capable of unconditional love, etc.

    Also, good point about devotion =/= love. There's also a passional component, i.e., my feelings are in some way tied to yours, I derive pleasure from your pleasure and pain from your pain, etc. This is a bit of Christian doctrine, but traditional Christianity doesn't really accept the idea that love has this kind of passional component for God, because God is "impassible" meaning that he cannot be controlled by his emotions. This is a difficult idea for me to accept, honestly, because I believe so strongly in the value of emotions and resist the idea that "reason should completely control the passions." But the point is, for God, it would seem that it's all about the action component, and also I suppose the self-willed positive disposition he has towards human kind.

    For one, I don't accept the idea of universal morality; why would I (or why do you)? To me, it's a grand presumption, and comparing the relative value of moral acts to mountain heights is, quite frankly, an insult to nature.
    It's a natural assumption. When babies die, we naturally assign the moral label "bad" to that event. We would naturally assign the moral label "bad" if Iran/North Korea/tha bad guyz dropped a nuclear bomb on some random city in the US tomorrow. I'm not necessarily trying to prove that moral acts have inherent value, I'm just saying that if they did, it would make unconditional love a much more attractive proposition. If you assume that the value of moral acts is a conceptual framework imposed by humans upon action, then yes, this is all bs. But, if you assume that the value of moral acts is something inherent in actions and relationships and people that can be discovered or revealed, then it's perfectly valid.

    Universal morality seems obvious to me. Some things are better than others. It is better to love a woman than to love a rock. It is better to save a child than to eat a sandwich. There must be some inherent difference in value between these things. Fitting actions and internal dispositions (internal dispositions most of all) to the inherent differences in value between objects of love, things in the world, actions one can take, etc., is universal morality, to me.

    Yeah, I don't think it always begins as a tool for manipulation – the motivations behind its creation were probably genuine overall. I just think that, due to human nature, it inevitably becomes that, and its core meaning loses substance.

    The disclaimer about it "not being a contrivance of God" doesn't make it any less of a contrivance, albeit one of humans. I mean, claiming that "certain benefits of love are naturally impossible to access without certain moral states," in a religious context, just seems like an inverted way of saying "You can only achieve absolute love by following this moral code."
    Like I said above, if moral value is a natural feature of the universe, inherent in actions, people, and situations, that changes the whole thing. I'm not up to the task of proving that the moral code is a natural feature of the universe right now, but I can't see why that isn't a possibility. That being said, I will gladly admit that unconditional love, while a great idea, is often abused by either unwise or outright malicious individuals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Christianity would say that this is where the miracle comes in. Yes, based on the people I know, I doubt that I or anyone I know would by ourselves achieve unconditional love. I take it as an article of faith that God, by some miracle (and a lot of time and effort on my part and God's), can cause me to manifest unconditional love, or create circumstances in which I would be capable of unconditional love, etc.
    Well, I suppose hope has its place.

    Also, good point about devotion =/= love. There's also a passional component, i.e., my feelings are in some way tied to yours, I derive pleasure from your pleasure and pain from your pain, etc. This is a bit of Christian doctrine, but traditional Christianity doesn't really accept the idea that love has this kind of passional component for God, because God is "impassible" meaning that he cannot be controlled by his emotions. This is a difficult idea for me to accept, honestly, because I believe so strongly in the value of emotions and resist the idea that "reason should completely control the passions." But the point is, for God, it would seem that it's all about the action component, and also I suppose the self-willed positive disposition he has towards human kind.
    I agree about the passional component, and find it odd that Christianity would conceive of God as impassible. This renders the claim that he wills a positive disposition towards humanity pretty arbitrary, because it negates true "impartiality" or universality.

    What's the "action component"?

    It's a natural assumption. When babies die, we naturally assign the moral label "bad" to that event. We would naturally assign the moral label "bad" if Iran/North Korea/tha bad guyz dropped a nuclear bomb on some random city in the US tomorrow. I'm not necessarily trying to prove that moral acts have inherent value, I'm just saying that if they did, it would make unconditional love a much more attractive proposition. If you assume that the value of moral acts is a conceptual framework imposed by humans upon action, then yes, this is all bs. But, if you assume that the value of moral acts is something inherent in actions and relationships and people that can be discovered or revealed, then it's perfectly valid.
    Well yeah, it's an assumption; absolute love is an objective beacon of sorts. I don't devalue the motivation behind it, but I think it's ultimately arbitrary and limiting. I'm not a moral relativist at all; I view morals as an aspect of anthropology, without subscribing much to them, one way or the other; my value is my value, and that's enough.

    Universal morality seems obvious to me. Some things are better than others. It is better to love a woman than to love a rock. It is better to save a child than to eat a sandwich. There must be some inherent difference in value between these things. Fitting actions and internal dispositions (internal dispositions most of all) to the inherent differences in value between objects of love, things in the world, actions one can take, etc., is universal morality, to me.
    Some things being better than others doesn't mean that universal morality exists; it means humans have preferences. If someone told you that loving a rock was better than loving a woman, what would you say to convince them otherwise? Either way, internal dispositions are related to actions, and these two things work together to create ideas of inherent value (emotional–>concrete); that doesn't mean inherent differences of value exist, nor does it imply that lining said things up perfectly means universal morality exists. To quote The Stranger, "One life was just as good as another... [his] dog mattered no more than [his] wife."

    Like I said above, if moral value is a natural feature of the universe, inherent in actions, people, and situations, that changes the whole thing. I'm not up to the task of proving that the moral code is a natural feature of the universe right now, but I can't see why that isn't a possibility. That being said, I will gladly admit that unconditional love, while a great idea, is often abused by either unwise or outright malicious individuals.
    It's definitely possible, as many things are. Ultimately, I find the task of proving or disproving it, to be pointless; I'd rather not even bother with the unnecessary assumption that would lead to such speculations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ;593825
    Do you think that love is ever truly unconditional? No. Everyone expects having it reciprocated, having their ego pampered once in a while, not being cheated on...

    Do you think you're capable of loving another person unconditionally? Mby I was in my early youth and before my prime, altho that didn't mean I was willing or able to do everything for the man. It was rather a matter of idealization, I guess.

    Do you or have you ever loved someone unconditionally? There was only one man in my life I forgave several things I would have considered unacceptable if performed by others. On a strictly "internal" level there was probably also a second one, but things were way more complicated and resentment-stuffed between us to allow for much concrete tolerance.

    Do you or have you ever felt you were loved unconditionally? Yes, by the same first man I mentioned previously. Anything else done by anyone pales in relation to that.

    ...etc.
    ....

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