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Thread: insight I had about socionics

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    Default insight I had about socionics

    Here is an insight I had about socionics with a group member in private about a day ago:

    The most important four functions when constructing and maintaining a society are Fe/Fi and Te/Ti.

    Ne/Ni and Se/Si are more about 'personal strength' and inner worlds and have little to do with the *external* construction of a society. In Ni and Ne's case they are more about raw insight, which is interesting and can be very accurate, but has nothing to do with the actual glue that upholds a society. Se organizes and moves people around, but more for realizing personal goals and an attempt to make Ni's visions into a reality.

    The sort of raw power of Se (and the personal comfort of Si), and the insights of Ne/Ni, are just all too much on the individual/small-group level to build the external society in which we all live and work and play, etc.

    So therefore, shared Ne/Ni and Se/Si aren't as important in mainstream social situations as the other two functions. When you take society out of the equation, and put a beta/gamma together in private, they will get along much, much better then they would in an institutionalized setting.

    I mean some people have an adolescent viewpoint that all society is a 'veil' or a useless system, etc. and I'd agree in principal however civilization and external society is also a good thing as it does protect me by equalizing everybody's emotional natures. The system just has to be built in a Fe/Ti way for me and not a Fi/Te way. Otherwise I will flat-out refuse to participate in society no matter how many incentives you give me, because the raw psychological energy of human relationships are always, always the most important thing.

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    Mmm. I think I tend to get along with Delta's more in private, and Beta's more in larger groups, so that makes sense.

    The perceiving elements give "cultural flair" and affect the arts more perhaps. I definitely agree with the irrational elements feeling more personal and idealistic.
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    interesting! makes sense.
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    I don't disagree. Gulenko recently wrote about how Ti is the centerpiece of society.

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    True about the beta/gamma interaction!

    I worked a supervisor who I suspect was an ESFp or I dont know, maybe an ENTj, definitely some kind of extraverted gamma. Why do I say so? EVERYTHING comes down to MONEY for him. That really annoyed me when I first worked with him because my attitude is primarily about helping people and getting things done for them, let's spend as much money as necessary to do so.

    The interesting thing was the whole time he seems to have thought positively about me, though sometimes not quite seeing where I was coming from and thinking I was a bit impractical, but in those cases taking the opportunity to "teach" me the "better" way (his way ). Well of course, I could usually see his point, and sometimes i even agreed with him, but other times I would get really irritated at what he would be saying.

    When this would happen in a group setting, I would just fume and fume inside. Sometimes I would question aloud what he is saying (diplomatically of course). I also found him a bit condescending and presumptuous in such a setting.

    Our second time working together, I was directly under his supervision (unlike the first time when there was someone in between us in the chain of command), so he actually made it a point to meet with me individually to discuss our thoughts on our clients. During these 1-on-1 meetings, we actually had some great discussions, and he actually gave me the floor to voice my thoughts (which I definitely appreciated). The best part was he actually would consider what I was saying and sometimes even he agreed with me. Frequently though, he still couldn't quite see where I was coming from. Still, even when we disagreed, it was more like we agreed to disagree and it wasn't a big deal. I learned a lot during those sessions and I just felt like we overall had a positive working relationship because of those meetings.

    He seems friendly towards me and always seems to want to be like buddies. Do i feel that I like him enough to consider him a friend. . .eeehhh, i dont think so. . .I'll still be friendly though. He will often say things that in my opinion are condescending and reflect a jump to conclusions (and as wikisocion says, jokes frequently about personal qualities). Being around him makes me feel negative.

    Same type of interactionswith an ENTj acquaintance, though the money issue was less pronounced with her and she was less of a personal joker. She fits the ENTj description and the beta-gamma interaction pattern pretty well.

    Socionics is so cool. . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    The most important four functions when constructing and maintaining a society are Fe/Fi and Te/Ti.

    Ne/Ni and Se/Si are more about 'personal strength' and inner worlds and have little to do with the *external* construction of a society.
    Smilexian Socionics 101.2
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    That thread is long and confusing, can you specify what part is in relation to what B&D posted?



    btw I thought that was a good analysis B&D. I agree that society is generally more motivated by Ethical and Logical IE's. Sensory and Intuitive ones are more about how those societial values are applied, which is why I tend to connect more with Gamma's on primary social issues/behaviors than with Alphas, whom I connect more with on lifestyle (ie comfort and safety(Si/Ne)> endurance and influence (Se/Ni))
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    That thread is long and confusing, can you specify what part is in relation to what B&D posted?
    Quote Originally Posted by Smilexian Socionics 101.2
    Perceiving function:
    It relates to a natural state of things, observation of events such as they are. It doesn't involve agreements, ethics or sociality, it doesn't involve purpose. It's just things as they are. It requires judging functions to supply it with purpose and humanity and it supports judging functions by turning their hopes, beliefs and decisions into reality. By its actions changes the focus of a situation from the 'aristocratic' to the 'democratic' ie. enables one to concentrate on the situation that is instead of a principle, communal agreement or prevailing idea.

    Judging function:
    It relates to an artificial state of things, observation of the way things could be and how they should be. It consists of agreed upon and decided information, ethics, norms, sociality, purpose, infrastructure, social bonds, honor, beliefs, plans, abstractions and hierarchies. It's what we make of the world, it's our humanity. It requires perceiving functions to anchor it into what's actually happening around it and to enable it to create something with its intentions. By its actions it turns 'democratic' into 'aristocratic' ie. it institutionalizes information and structures human activity, creates social roles and groups out of individuals that used to interact with an environment out of their own interests.
    Just click on the link and find the word "social". It is long and there is a lot of information but it is a very good read.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    Just click on the link and find the word "social". It is long and there is a lot of information but it is a very good read.
    Thanks.
    I'm not really a fan of this type of Socionics, there seems to be too much emphasis on Reinin>Model A, the former I find unreliable. So I don't know how it can really be comparable to B&D's more Model A approach...

    They're also certain definitions of the IE's that I disagree with..

    Fi: Usually people are happy if you're happy with them. - that' more Fe
    Fe: You should act a bit more nice. - that's more Fi
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    every once in a while, somebody wants to feel proud of themselves and they invent a new kind of socionics.

    last year that person was smilex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    Thanks.
    I'm not really a fan of this type of Socionics, there seems to be too much emphasis on Reinin>Model A, the former I find unreliable. So I don't know how it can really be comparable to B&D's more Model A approach...

    They're also certain definitions of the IE's that I disagree with..
    You're right on a lot of things and the theory is obviously not perfect, as many other Socionics theory out there. Perhaps it's just me personally, but I found that aspects of Smilexian socionics was actually very helpful in helping me understand the functions.

    His version is comparable to BulletsandDoves' because they both came to the same conclusion using two different approaches. I just find it interesting that we are more receptive to the latter and most are dismissive towards the former.

    Ultimately, I am a student of Model A but I have no problem using other, seemingly contradicting theories to classical thinking, to further my understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84
    Fe: You should act a bit more nice. - that's more Fi
    That could be argued. It all depends on the context. A Fe person would say something like that when the individual which they direct the advice is disobeying a Ti constructed social conduct. It would be Fi if a person was being perceived as rude and is mostly a reactionary suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84
    Fi: Usually people are happy if you're happy with them. - that' more Fe
    This depends on what is meant by the second "happy". If the second "happy" is just meant as a temporary emotional expression, then that would be Fe. But if "happy" is meant as an internal feeling with respect to a significant person, then it becomes Fi.

    Perhaps the two of you just interpreted those phrases differently. Socionics can be flakey like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    That could be argued. It all depends on the context. A Fe person would say something like that when the individual which they direct the advice is disobeying a Ti constructed social conduct. It would be Fi if a person was being perceived as rude and is mostly a reactionary suggestion.


    This depends on what is meant by the second "happy". If the second "happy" is just meant as a temporary emotional expression, then that would be Fe. But if "happy" is meant as an internal feeling with respect to a significant person, then it becomes Fi.

    Perhaps the two of you just interpreted those phrases differently. Socionics can be flakey like that.
    Yah I see what you mean, though I felt how each was explained was a bit more typical of the others IE.
    In short summaries of the IE's, it's better to keep emotions to Fe and ethical judgments to Fi IMO, or else it gets confusing
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    Even Fe-PoLRs can have strong emotions, although they aren't typically expressed. When they are, especially a negative one, it probably means something very serious (overload of negative Fi, basically: relational problems) or even extreme happiness toward someone special. I don't really see Fe as inclusive to emotion, or Fi as inclusive to moral judgement. Are you saying that you tend to see it that way? I like the "internal emotion" "external emotion" labels that niffweed stated to encapture more of the IE basis, and stated in his Fe-PoLR description as, in a way, the social "game," which doesn't make Fe exclusive, I don't think.

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    I think if you look more in general where an understanding of the social game comes from, a sort of easy interpretation of the surrounding environment's emotions and subjective tendencies, you see it as much more than just a game. The social game by itself is just a specific gravitational nature of Fe, so it certainly doesn't make Fe exclusive.

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    I was speaking in terms of what was written by the user Smilingeyes, "Usually people are happy if you're happy with them" which is more related to Fe, as in, the ability to influence the emotional atmosphere.

    Of course other types can display and experience emotions, that's human, but Fe+Ti and Fi+Te quadras prioritize it differently.
    Fe+Ti- positive emotions than positive relations
    Fi+Te- positive relations than positive emotions
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    I was speaking in terms of what was written by the user Smilingeyes, "Usually people are happy if you're happy with them" which is more related to Fe, as in, the ability to influence the emotional atmosphere.
    You could also say "You should act a bit more nice" is about preserving the emotional atmosphere if you think in terms of appropriate and inappropriate behavior in a group setting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    You could also say "You should act a bit more nice" is about preserving the emotional atmosphere if you think in terms of appropriate and inappropriate behavior in a group setting.
    Indeed, but is that really a good way of defining Fe, as acting nice? Is that really a primary Fe concern?

    I guess I'm playing semantics, but I don't see how "acting nice" is a good way of explaining Fe vs Fi, perhaps "acting positive" would be better, than the concern is directly on the emotional atmosphere (Fe) rather than ethical character judgments (Fi)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    I was speaking in terms of what was written by the user Smilingeyes, "Usually people are happy if you're happy with them" which is more related to Fe, as in, the ability to influence the emotional atmosphere.

    Of course other types can display and experience emotions, that's human, but Fe+Ti and Fi+Te quadras prioritize it differently.
    Fe+Ti- positive emotions than positive relations
    Fi+Te- positive relations than positive emotions
    I thought he was alluding to the Fi's general inclination towards non-inteference. Fi is generally not about affecting others, it's more interested in following its own rules. IJs as Static types are more interested in following their own rules more than anything. So I took the comment "Usually people are happy if you're happy with them" as something like "If I act a certain way, then surely other people would follow suit".
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