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Thread: Quadra Dynamics

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Default Quadra Dynamics

    I think this is the key concept that helps both define Socionics objectively and bring it into perspective subjectively, so I'm making this thread to remind myself to write about it when I'm not eating pasta and fiending for nicotine.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Have you read Gulenkos stuff on the quadra cycle?

    If not:

    .. .

    I find it pretty accurate. Gulenko seems to be hit and miss, but he has some interesting material.
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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Gulenko say:
    Квадра в силу её особого исторического происхождения волновала меня давно. Квадральная динамика была моей первой самостоятельной темой в соционике. Эти вопросы я много обсуждал с Аушрой. Главный вывод, который я сделал в ту пору, это эффективность поквадровой развертки социона для моделирования процессов, протекающих на довольно больших отрезках времени [4,5]. Так как квадра давала хорошее приближение к особенностям психологии завершенных исторических эпох, то я и привлёк её для моделирования макроэволюции в обществе.
    It all makes sense now!
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    redbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    It all makes sense now!
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Synopsis

    Delta - The Arrival

    Some people might disagree with my interpretation here, because I choose to begin the analysis of quadra progression from the perspective of Delta. Personally I see Delta as, in a way, the beginning and the end; that which must be departed from, but ultimately that which is striven for. In neurology, Delta waves are the indicators of the deepest state of sleep, the most inactive state a human being can be in, the state of greatest rest. Interestingly enough, these waves are the most dominant pattern in newborns; we start life as close to death as we can get. My argument for beginning, and ending, with Delta is that they are the quadra where, quite literally, the least activity occurs in terms of active societal or group progression. In as simple of terms as possible, I want to begin at zero.

    Delta is an Aristocratic quadra, and as such it attempts to find self-sufficiency within an implicitly acknowledged grouping. Delta has everything it needs: active implementation of necessary processes and methods, a self-contained sense of affirmation, enough activity and creativity to keep stagnation at bay, and the comfort of a certain stability and predictability of every-day life. I call Delta the quadra of "arrival" because there is, in a sense, nothing else necessary; ideally Delta represents a microcosm of perfection.

    Functional Analysis

    Fi/Te: Emphasis on a communitarian worldview, purporting implicit standards of interest and priority. Emphasizes moral standards and taking proper action to serve the needs of the whole.

    Si/Ne: Belief in a need for sustainability and a certain rhythm of life; broader aspects include culture and broad-spectrum cooperation. Disinclination to dogma or rigidity; beliefs and standards adapt with the flow of time, adjusting to prevailing trends.

    -

    Se/Ni: Regards the past with suspicion; seeks desperately to break from old patterns and not repeat the same mistakes. Regards extremism with suspicion; emphasizes standards for proper actions and acceptable means to ends.

    Fe/Ti: Uninterested in dogma or preaching; feel little need for intensity or reorganization. Dislike when their broadest priorities and assumptions are questioned.

    Delta to Alpha - The Departure

    By the same means that it is self-sufficient and ideal, Delta is also the most stagnant quadra, the least interested in radical change, and potentially the most self-satisfied. Delta is a self-perpetuating mechanism, an instrument wound such that it can rewind itself; unfortunately it seems to take all the energy it has simply to self-perpetuate. Delta needs Alpha to come in and shake things up, insist on new priorities, and bring a fresh set of legs to the race.

    Alpha - Deconstruction


    Alpha is the beginning. It is the first "change" quadra: the originators, developers, generators, trailblazers, seekers, and discoverers. It's no coincidence that Alphas are the quadra, especially the NTs, most easily attracted to scientific research disciplines, as they like to be at the forefront, pushing the limits and discovering new things about the world, people, and everything around us. They are perhaps the best quadra at publicizing and promoting their own interests in a very general public manner; they know how to appeal to people, to pique their curiosity. They love above all to be agents of change in their own lives and those of other people. They are understanding to a fault, and can find a reason for any kind of behavior; this usually manifests somewhere between natural good will and naivete.

    Alpha's place in the progression of quadras comes after Delta. Alpha breaks things up, causes deviation, and encourages change. Alpha's place is to rouse from the "slumber" of Delta, to reassess priorities and set new things into motion. Alpha is fresh, hungry for new territory, eager to move on to the next new thing. However, they have many ties, and usually have some investment in a certain rhythm and standard of living, and, as such, are not always willing to take the steps necessary to act fully upon their capacities, to do everything that is necessary to fully realize what they know is possible.

    Function Analysis

    Ne/Si Axis: Retains emphasis on comfort and, to some extent, stability that is present in Delta. General disinclination towards dogma, willingness to happily consider alternatives.

    Fe/Ti Axis: Encouraging change, a sense that there is still something to be sought out and discovered. Systematization, ideology, fervor, passion for a subject, profession, trade or that promises a brighter future.

    -

    Se/Ni Axis: Can be sensitive to overt materialism or attitudes they see as "callous." Hesitance to discuss their limits or penultimate priorities; dislike having their integrity or moral boundaries tested and prefer to stay within their "comfort zone."

    Fi/Te: Uninterested in matters of moral judgment. Tendency to emphasize freedom, free will, free spiritedness, and the importance of conscious choice.

    Alpha to Beta - The Loss of Innocence

    As Alpha transitions to Beta, two main differences are noticeable. The most prominent is an emphasis on groups, beginning from a broader, loose collectivity on the Alpha end, and solidifying into a tight-knit group in Beta. With this solidification comes the confidence to move forward, to take more risks, and to make bigger sacrifices to attain goals. Betas take the ideas that have been cultivated and engendered by Alphas, and begin to realize them as fully as possible.

    Function Analysis

    Beta - Upheaval

    Beta is, above all, a quadra of results. Betas are concerned with ends and means; mostly ends, but they tend to find both justification and humor in a dark or detached attitude towards the necessary means. Beta is the quadra that is willing to push both their own limits and those of others in order to obtain an end result. An emphasis on spirituality and personal vision is introduced in contrast to the stark deconstructive attitude of Alpha. This manifests in something of a cathexis/catharsis duality, approaching religious or cult-like attitudes; the first half of the quadra is concerned with prioritizing, organization, and appropriation of support, while the latter is more bent on making a "final push," a sort of discharge or apotheosis to acheive the final goal. Beta is capable of sitting in potent repose, building a tight, coherent system to serve as the jumping block when the time to strike arrives. Their systems are fixed and their boundaries firm; everyone must perform their part in perfect synchronicity if results are to be obtained. The purpose of this quadra is, quite simply, to do whatever is necessary to impliment change.

    Beta, coming after Alpha, is capable of taking results out of the lab and putting them to the test, to see if they can be used to obtain a result. They are willing to take risks, to be certain when surrounded by doubt; they see all of their resources, acknowledge what they are capable of, and seek to make full use of it, to push themselves to the limit. This attitude, while in full acknowledgment of the consequences of their actions, can lend itself to disregard, for both self and others, and lends itself to destructive behavior, sometimes even beyond what is necessary to acheive a result.

    Function Analysis

    Fe/Ti: Emphasis on solidification of concrete goals and unification of group spirit. Belief that all "members" should hold themselves to similar standards and have similar goals, beliefs, and basic outlook on life. Targeted, "search and destroy" prioritization.

    Ni/Se: Spiritual bent, willingness to take beliefs for their pure value. Appreciation for energy and the ability to break stagnation. Future emphasis; willingness to make justified sacrifices to meet goals.

    -

    Fi/Te: Tendency towards irreverence; belief that ends justify the means, that actions should be unrestricted and ungoverned by stringent moral standards. Interested in meeting one standard, achieving one goal, rather than being burdened a multitude of open-ended responsibilities.

    Si/Ne: Tendency to associate stagnation with depression, openness with whimsicality. Inconstancy of action is viewed with suspicion. Uninterested in preservation, upkeep, or predictability, except insofar as they pertain to reliability for performing a specific task.

    Beta to Gamma - Reconstruction

    The transition from Beta to Gamma is one of picking up the pieces. Beta's high levels of activity have shaken things up, destroyed some things, and left the world incoherent and disparate. Gamma is here to stop the bleeding and begin reaching out and grabbing the pieces, to introduce order where there was once chaos.

    Function Analysis



    Gamma - Reformation

    Gamma is the quadra of stability in the face of turbulence, productivity, materialism, and endurance. They are down-to-earth, clear-headed, and know what they must do to meet their goals and standards. Gammas are interested in influence, security, and structure; while they believe their actions should be unrestricted, they also feel the need to maintain a working standard for what they are willing to do in order to obtain a result. They place great emphasis on personal ambition and the power of the human mind to find a reasonable solution to all of his problems. Gammas are solid rocks in times of trouble; they know how to keep their heads down and survive, and know how to wait until the storm has passed, to act at the optimal moment to acheive the optimal output for their input.

    Gamma's place is to take over after the collapse or dissolution of Beta's directed action; the redirect attention to broader priorities. They are interested in reforming and rebuilding, learning mistakes of the past and building atop the rubble. They have the determination, commitment, and solidity to wrestle Beta's charging bull to the ground and put it to work on the plow. However, they require the temperance and perspective of Deltas to bring things to their proper order and set a sustainable, functional environment into movement.

    Function Analysis

    Se/Ni - Invested in endurance and security. Search for stable investments for their time and resources. Willingness to wait for the proper moment to obtain maximum output. Desirous of influence and power; tendency towards avarice.

    Te/Fi - Functionality valued above all. Common sense morality; emphasis on personal values and insist upon alignment of morals and goals to make solid connections. Belief in self-reliance and the power of the human mind. Materialistic in the philosophical sense.

    -

    Fe/Ti - Suspicious of passion and dogma in all forms; they disdain anyone they perceive as being a blind follower or dependent of an entity larger than themselves. Dislike their actions being limited by standardization of methods or processes; do not want their wings clipped.

    Si/Ne - Easily disregard their own health or life rhythm in pursuit of goals. Sometimes guilty of passing up opportunities that do not meet their rigid expectations and ultimate need for security and confidence; prefer reliable to interesting, promising, or novel.

    Gamma to Delta - Preservation

    While Gammas are competent, stark, and willing to do what is necessary to reintroduce a semblance of order and caution, they are, in some sense, too high powered, and sometimes have trouble living up to their own expectations; they tend towards burn-outs and overextension. Gamma needs Delta to come in and impliment sustainability, to find a proper rhythm conducive to long-term stability, and solidify the standards set by pioneers and reformers into tradition and culture.

    Function Analysis
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Cool.

    It makes sense with the seasonal and diurnal analogy as well: Winter and night are the end and the beginning, as with Delta.
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Indeed.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Yes, indeed.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    yeah I think it's quite good!
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I tend to view quadras as a continuum also, as opposed to a strictly exclusive phenomenon and generally agree with your perspective.
    Ceci n'est pas une eii.




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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Has anyone read Strauss & Howe's work on Generational Succession? It seems to me that they've independantly discovered the Quadra succession, without knowing any socionics.

    I've studied both systems quite extensively, and I would propose that the two systems match up thusly:

    Alpha = Adaptive/Artist Generation
    Beta = Idealist/Prophet Generation
    Gamma = Reactive/Nomad Generation
    Delta = Civic/Hero Generation

    There are some differences in how they're described, but I think if you look at actual history and not just what Strauss and Howe describe, it matches up pretty well.

    In the most recent cycle, the generations would match up so:

    G.I. Generation ("The Greatest Generation"), born 1901-1924 = Delta
    Silent Generation (a.k.a. the Beatniks), born 1925-1942 = Alpha
    Baby Boomers (a.k.a. the Hippies), born 1943-1960 = Beta
    13th Generation ("Generation X"), born 1961-1981 = Gamma
    Millenial Generation, born 1982-~2003? = Delta

    Note that these are the generations as defined by Strauss and Howe -- there are a number of different ways to define generations used by different people and the media. The end-point of the last generation, the Millenials, is not firmly defined, since it's not obvious until the succeeding generation starts to grow up and manifest its own distinct identity.

    I find it kind of eerie how well the two systems mesh. It's an excellent evidence, I believe, that Quadra succession is a real thing with real effects, not just a theoretical construct in someone's mind.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    That is really neat, Krig. Thanks.
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    http://www.lifecourse.com/assets/fil...in_history.pdf

    G.I.
    (Hero, born 1901–1924) This generation developed a special and “good kid” reputation as the beneficiaries of new playgrounds, scouting clubs, vitamins, and child-labor restrictions. They came of age with the sharpest rise in schooling ever recorded. As young adults, their uniformed corps patiently endured depression and heroically conquered foreign enemies. In a midlife subsidized
    by the G.I. Bill, they built gleaming suburbs, invented miracle vaccines, plugged “missile gaps,” and launched moon rockets. Their unprecedented grip on the Presidency began with a New Frontier, a Great Society, and Model Cities, but wore down through Vietnam, Watergate, deficits, and problems with “the vision thing.” As “senior citizens,” they safeguarded their own “entitlements” but had little influence over culture and values. (AMERICAN: John Kennedy, Ronald Reagan, Walt Disney, Judy Garland, John Wayne, Walter Cronkite; Foreign: Willy Brandt, Leonid Brezhnev)

    Silent
    (Artist, born 1925–1942) This generation grew up as the suffocated children of war and depression. They came of age just too late to be war heroes and just too early to be youthful free spirits. Instead, this early-marrying Lonely Crowd became the risk-averse technicians and professionals as well as the sensitive rock ‘n rollers and civil-rights advocates of a post-crisis era in which conformity
    seemed to be a sure ticket to success. Midlife was an anxious “passage” for a generation torn between stolid elders and passionate juniors. Their surge to power coincided with fragmenting families, cultural diversity, institutional complexity, and prolific litigation. They are entering elderhood with unprecedented affluence, a “hip” style, and a reputation for indecision. (AMERICAN: Colin Powell, Walter Mondale, Woody Allen, Martin Luther King, Jr., Sandra Day O’Connor, Elvis Presley; Foreign: Anne Frank, Mikhail Gorbachev)

    Boom
    (Prophet, born 1943–1960) This generation basked as children in Dr. Spock permissiveness, suburban conformism,
    Sputnik-era schooling, Beaver Cleaver friendliness,
    and Father Knows Best family order. From the Summer of Love to the Days of Rage, they came of age rebelling against the worldly blueprints of their parents. As their “flower child,” Black Panther, Weathermen, and Jesus Freak fringes proclaimed themselves arbiters of public morals, youth pathologies worsened—and SAT scores began a 17-year slide. In the early 1980s, many young adults became self-absorbed “yuppies” with mainstream careers but perfectionist lifestyles. Entering midlife (and national power), they are trumpeting values,
    touting a “politics of meaning,” and waging scorched-earth Culture Wars. (AMERICAN: Bill Clinton, Newt Gingrich, Steven Spielberg, Candice Bergen, Spike Lee, Bill Gates; Foreign: Tony Blair, Binyamin Netanyahu)

    13th
    (Nomad, born 1961–1981) This generation survived a “hurried” childhood of divorce, latchkeys, open classrooms,
    devil-child movies, and a shift from G to R ratings.
    They came of age curtailing the earlier rise in youth crime and fall in test scores—yet heard themselves denounced as so wild and stupid as to put The Nation At Risk. As young adults, maneuvering through a sexual battlescape of AIDS and blighted courtship rituals—they date and marry cautiously. In jobs, they embrace risk and prefer free agency over loyal corporatism. From grunge to hip-hop, their splintery culture reveals a hardened
    edge. Politically, they lean toward pragmatism and nonaffiliation, and would rather volunteer than vote. Widely criticized as “Xers” or “slackers,” they inhabit a Reality Bites economy of declining young-adult living standards. (AMERICAN: Tom Cruise, Jodie Foster, Michael Dell, Deion Sanders, Winona Ryder, Quentin Tarantino; Foreign: Princess Di, Alanis Morissette)

    Millennial
    (Hero?, born 1982–?) first arrived when “Babies on Board” signs appeared. As abortion and divorce rates ebbed, the popular culture began stigmatizing hands-off parental styles and recasting babies as special. Child abuse and child safety became hot topics, while books teaching virtues and values became best-sellers. Today, politicians define adult issues (from tax cuts to deficits) in terms of their effects on children. Hollywood is replacing cinematic child devils with child angels, and cable TV and the internet are cordoning off “child-friendly” havens. While educators speak of “standards” and “cooperative learning,” school uniforms are surging in popularity. With adults viewing children more posi6
    of 6 Generations in History
    tively, U.S. test scores are faring better in international comparisons. (AMERICAN: Jessica McClure, the Olsen twins, Baby Richard, Elisa Lopez, Dooney Waters, Jessica Dubroff; Foreign: Anna Paquin, Prince William)
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    Gilly, I am impressed. That is like, almost perfect. Good job.

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    wow really good job gilly
    INTp

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    However, they have many ties, and usually have some investment in a certain rhythm and standard of living, and, as such, are not always willing to take the steps necessary to act fully upontheir capacities, to do everything that is neccesary to fully realize what they know is possible.
    not quite true. it's not about willingness it's about energy. intellectual research, production, and dissemination is a huge task in and of itself. refining ideas, researching their applicabiliity, selling others, handling logistics, and implanting motivation is a full time job that doesn't leave much time for the next step in the process.

    Ne/Si Axis: Retains emphasis on comfort and, to some extent, stability that is present in Delta. General disinclination towards dogma, willingness to happily consider alternatives.
    slightly off. i don't know how happily the alternatives are considered. alpha thinks the status quo is wrong. i do agree that in order to consider alternatives, you need some stability.

    Betas take the ideas that have been cultivated and engendered by Alphas, and begin to realize them as fully as possible.
    i would say apply rather than realize. beta does the rough draft application of the new information and ideas. full realization doesn't come until gamma-delta.

    An emphasis on spirituality and personal vision is introduced in contrast to the stark deconstructive attitude of Alpha.
    absolutely. the collective, group oriented Fe.

    Targeted, "search and destroy" prioritization.
    beta isn't destroying anything; they're pushing to agenda. they're birthing the idea, creating things, pushing past any obstacle or opposition. the mission is not to destroy, rather to create and bring to fruition.

    The transition from Beta to Gamma is one of picking up the pieces. Beta's high levels of activity have shaken things up, destroyed some things, and left the world incoherent and disparate. Gamma is here to stop the bleeding and begin reaching out and grabbing the pieces, to introduce order where there was once chaos.
    gamma picks what works about the project and creates order and efficiency. puts masses of people to work. creates a mass production machine. democracy holds true in that the vast majority of people are equal cogs in the machine. but there's a few at the top (a la bill gates) who are really raking it in.

    Gamma's place is to take over after the collapse or dissolution of Beta's directed action;
    there's no collapse. beta has birthed the application and it's off the ground. there's a rough draft that has to be brought to order and efficiency.

    there's an endowment process going on. i believe it runs through the rings of benefit. each quadra endows the next with a gift. the rings of supervision hold each quadra in check; stops the excesses of each IE.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Has anyone read Strauss & Howe's work on Generational Succession? It seems to me that they've independantly discovered the Quadra succession, without knowing any socionics.

    I've studied both systems quite extensively, and I would propose that the two systems match up thusly:

    Alpha = Adaptive/Artist Generation
    Beta = Idealist/Prophet Generation
    Gamma = Reactive/Nomad Generation
    Delta = Civic/Hero Generation

    There are some differences in how they're described, but I think if you look at actual history and not just what Strauss and Howe describe, it matches up pretty well.

    In the most recent cycle, the generations would match up so:

    G.I. Generation ("The Greatest Generation"), born 1901-1924 = Delta
    Silent Generation (a.k.a. the Beatniks), born 1925-1942 = Alpha
    Baby Boomers (a.k.a. the Hippies), born 1943-1960 = Beta
    13th Generation ("Generation X"), born 1961-1981 = Gamma
    Millenial Generation, born 1982-~2003? = Delta

    Note that these are the generations as defined by Strauss and Howe -- there are a number of different ways to define generations used by different people and the media. The end-point of the last generation, the Millenials, is not firmly defined, since it's not obvious until the succeeding generation starts to grow up and manifest its own distinct identity.

    I find it kind of eerie how well the two systems mesh. It's an excellent evidence, I believe, that Quadra succession is a real thing with real effects, not just a theoretical construct in someone's mind.
    i read the strauss and howe books 12 years ago...great reads. (funny...my 1 minute of fame is a mention in their book _Millenials Rising_). generational theory is quite compelling. the book _Generations_ is very well researched. i am not at all surprised that you have read this stuff krigtheviking. these books were recommended to me by an intj.

    the fit with socionics isn't a perfect fit. the best fit is for quadras. generational theory may be a better explanation for what goes on in society than the socionis quadra subtheory. the generations theory has a much better handle on what happens in society and with generations of people. socionics is much more micro. not to say that there can't be similarities, but S&H have a much more detailed explanation than socionics does. besides, each generation contains all socionics types, so then you start contemplating theories of mob mentality. who takes over a generation. i've always identified more with prophets myself.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    as much as I loathe you gilly, I must admit that was an interesting read

    kudos.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    as much as I loathe you gilly, I must admit that was an interesting read

    kudos.
    To be frank with you, I'm shocked; before reading your post, when I saw that you had responded to this thread, I immediately convinced myself that the time had come to ban you out of sheer spite. Kudos.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  20. #20

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    Gilly, i find your synopsis to be impressive!
    today is a gift, that's why its called the present

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Why thank you
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  22. #22
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    You people should actually TALK about this shit, too, instead of just praising me and saying you think I'm right. That would be a nice change.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  23. #23
    redbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    You people should actually TALK about this shit, too, instead of just praising me and saying you think I'm right. That would be a nice change.
    no thanks. I'll stick to praising you and telling you you're right.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  25. #25
    redbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Sorry, I'm busy wrapping gifts, baking cookies and figuring out my life, thank you very much!
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  26. #26
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Ok, you are pardoned. But everyone else has yet to meet the quota.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  27. #27
    redbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Ok, you are pardoned. But everyone else has yet to meet the quota.
    thanks Gilly.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  28. #28
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    thanks Gilly.
    Anything for you, mon cheri.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akra View Post
    *raises eyebrow*
    Is this supposed to be some sort of excuse for not having anything to say?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  29. #29
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    ...k...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  30. #30
    Blaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    You people should actually TALK about this shit, too, instead of just praising me and saying you think I'm right. That would be a nice change.
    i talked about it. you didn't respond.

    i thought it was good, but needed just a bit of tweaking.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Sorry, I'm busy wrapping gifts, baking cookies and figuring out my life, thank you very much!
    the gift wrapping is the real bitch. j/k

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    beta isn't destroying anything; they're pushing to agenda. they're birthing the idea, creating things, pushing past any obstacle or opposition. the mission is not to destroy, rather to create and bring to fruition.

    -

    there's no collapse. beta has birthed the application and it's off the ground. there's a rough draft that has to be brought to order and efficiency.
    To be quite frank, I think your ideas about quadra progression are somewhat naive, or at least overly optimistic. Large-scale societal change doesn't happen by people just pushing their agendas and "overcoming adversity;" drastic measures are necessary for drastic change. The reason Alpha cannot "push forward," and the reason Beta is necessary, is that Alphas have too much investment in the established order; it is this order that has given them the luxury to figure out all of these problems and find solutions and ways to improve. Beta's role in the socion is to destroy the established order, or at least disrupt it sufficiently, and make room for something new.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  33. #33
    Blaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    To be quite frank, I think your ideas about quadra progression are somewhat naive, or at least overly optimistic. Large-scale societal change doesn't happen by people just pushing their agendas and "overcoming adversity;" drastic measures are necessary for drastic change. The reason Alpha cannot "push forward," and the reason Beta is necessary, is that Alphas have too much investment in the established order; it is this order that has given them the luxury to figure out all of these problems and find solutions and ways to improve. Beta's role in the socion is to destroy the established order, or at least disrupt it sufficiently, and make room for something new.
    you're wrong and you're not listening and i am absolutely not naive. you know how much shit i've seen? please.

    large scale societal change happens at the grassroots level in a democratic society. where do you think that beta gets the ideology to drive their reforms? you have to have a clearly thought out ideology if you're going to effectively motivate large groups of people to not only support your cause but take substantial risk in order to do so. if you're going to make sweeping statements about social change, you had better back them up with a concrete example.

    it may be betas goal to disrupt, but the golden thread that people will really buy into is based on ideas.

    with alpha, it's not about willingness to disrupt it's about what the role is: to figure out new ideas. to study things and improve them. as i said before, this is a time consuming endeavor. just because alphas depend on the status quo to carry out their role does not meant that they aren't ready for it to be substantially changed.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I said your ideas were naive; not you. Take a chill pill sister.

    None of what you've said contradicts any of what I've written in any way. You're just taking this personally.

    I agree that the "golden thread" as you say, has nothing to do with disruption; disruption is simply a necessary part of the cycle, and it is Beta's role to disrupt, to create room for change, just like it is Alpha's role to spur progress and bring new things to the table. Alpha envisions change and sets it in motion, Beta begins to implement it and clears the way, Gamma re-organizes and optimizes, and Delta stabilizes.

    For example, Karl Marx, probably an ILE, wrote the Communist Manifesto, arguable the most influential book written in the last 300 years in terms of its impact. Millions of people devote their lives to implementing his ideas. Wars have been fought, regimes overthrown; if you think about it, Marx has put up the biggest fight of anyone against the greater superpower the world has ever known. He belonged to numerous academic circles, published books, and wrote newspaper articles. He was a brilliant man, far ahead of his time. But he never could have started a revolution; it simply wasn't his place. He didn't have the connections, or the influence during his life time. He was a philosopher; he wasn't writing because he wanted to start a massive upheaval, but rather because he wanted to get a message out, to get people thinking. His ideas required someone like Lenin, for whom the ends justified the means, who involved himself and pushed people from thinking to doing, who was willing to throw away everything else about his life and devote himself to this one pursuit.

    I'm not saying "all alphas are pussies who are suckered into the system and all they are good for is whatever comes out of them." That would be trite, overly categorical, and stupid, but it seems to be the manner in which you think I meant it, so please believe me when I say I'm not that simple. What I'm saying is that these are archetypal tendencies that help dictate the types' natural roles, both social and concrete, and, although they manifest differently in each individual, they do have an influence on how a person treats their life.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  35. #35
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    I said your ideas were naive; not you.
    point taken; didn't look carefully enough.

    Take a chill pill sister.
    i'm already freezing it's 15 degrees here.

    None of what you've said contradicts any of what I've written in any way. You're just taking this personally.
    no i am not taking anything you're saying personally i'm responding to the thread and many others where you seem to think that beta is the only quadra that does anything worthwhile. you originally posted that alpha does not have the willingness to fight and i was challenging that notion.

    I agree that the "golden thread" as you say, has nothing to do with disruption; disruption is simply a necessary part of the cycle, and it is Beta's role to disrupt, to create room for change, just like it is Alpha's role to spur progress and bring new things to the table. Alpha envisions change and sets it in motion, Beta begins to implement it and clears the way, Gamma re-organizes and optimizes, and Delta stabilizes.
    yes; we've reached an accord. you show all the signs of growth here.

    For example, Karl Marx, probably an ILE, wrote the Communist Manifesto, arguable the most influential book written in the last 300 years in terms of its impact. Millions of people devote their lives to implementing his ideas. Wars have been fought, regimes overthrown; if you think about it, Marx has put up the biggest fight of anyone against the greater superpower the world has ever known. He belonged to numerous academic circles, published books, and wrote newspaper articles. He was a brilliant man, far ahead of his time. But he never could have started a revolution; it simply wasn't his place. He didn't have the connections, or the influence during his life time. He was a philosopher; he wasn't writing because he wanted to start a massive upheaval, but rather because he wanted to get a message out, to get people thinking. His ideas required someone like Lenin, for whom the ends justified the means, who involved himself and pushed people from thinking to doing, who was willing to throw away everything else about his life and devote himself to this one pursuit.
    *slam dunk* good deal.

    I'm not saying "all alphas are pussies who are suckered into the system and all they are good for is whatever comes out of them." That would be trite, overly categorical, and stupid, but it seems to be the manner in which you think I meant it, so please believe me when I say I'm not that simple. What I'm saying is that these are archetypal tendencies that help dictate the types' natural roles, both social and concrete, and, although they manifest differently in each individual, they do have an influence on how a person treats their life.
    i did think that was what you were saying. i feel so much better now though

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

  36. #36
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I mean, I can accept that perhaps I aggrandize my own quadra, partly because I, like any human, am egocentric, and am prone to see my own role as the most important one. But I would rather you simply said up front that rather than trying to reframe everything I said In any case I'm glad we're on the same page.

    I don't think my initial description was all that biased; maybe the part about transition from Alpha could use a little temperance. What phrases in particular, if any, made you see it that way?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  37. #37
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    Ultimately, a beta saying that alphas are hesitant to act on their ideas is no different than an alpha claiming that betas don't examine a wide enough scope of ideas. It's not that either quadra is incapable of it, just that the natural tendencies impel them towards one end of the spectrum more than the other. When betas criticize alphas' lack of initiative, it isn't because they believe alphas to be incapable of direct implementation; it's because they aren't able to activate them in the way they deem necessary for success. Big deal if it's delivered unpleasantly.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Ultimately, a beta saying that alphas are hesitant to act on their ideas is no different than an alpha claiming that betas don't examine a wide enough scope of ideas. It's not that either quadra is incapable of it, just that the natural tendencies impel them towards one end of the spectrum more than the other. When betas criticize alphas' lack of initiative, it isn't because they believe alphas to be incapable of direct implementation; it's because they aren't able to activate them in the way they deem necessary for success. Big deal if it's delivered unpleasantly.
    I think this is probably right.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Ultimately, a beta saying that alphas are hesitant to act on their ideas is no different than an alpha claiming that betas don't examine a wide enough scope of ideas. It's not that either quadra is incapable of it, just that the natural tendencies impel them towards one end of the spectrum more than the other. When betas criticize alphas' lack of initiative, it isn't because they believe alphas to be incapable of direct implementation; it's because they aren't able to activate them in the way they deem necessary for success. Big deal if it's delivered unpleasantly.
    This.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Ultimately, a beta saying that alphas are hesitant to act on their ideas is no different than an alpha claiming that betas don't examine a wide enough scope of ideas. It's not that either quadra is incapable of it, just that the natural tendencies impel them towards one end of the spectrum more than the other. When betas criticize alphas' lack of initiative, it isn't because they believe alphas to be incapable of direct implementation; it's because they aren't able to activate them in the way they deem necessary for success. Big deal if it's delivered unpleasantly.
    alphas don't expect betas to examine a wide enough scope of ideas. that's alpha's job not beta's. alphas don't hesitate about actions that are the job of alpha. are you saying that beta expects alpha to help them with their job?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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