Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 61

Thread: The American Presidents, from WWII-present

  1. #1
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default The American Presidents, from WWII-present

    Today, on the History Channel, there were a series of programs called "The Presidents." I caught from FDR-onward, and tried to type them all (with Model A Socionics.)

    I was able to type most of them, and narrow it down for the others.

    To me, it's interesting to note a historical change in quadra leadership--from Gamma (with exceptions) to more recently, Beta (with exceptions.)


    Franklin D. Roosevelt: ESFp/SEE


    Personally charismatic, charming, with an ear for 'drama.' Supposedly, a chaotic manager as President. Like many SEEs, FDR had tremendous ambition--and he was able to realize much of it through both sweeping domestic policy reforms (the New Deal,) and in wartime leadership (WWII.) That he's the only president to have ever sought--and been elected--to four terms speaks to this ambition.

    In Socionics, the SEE type is called 'The Politician'--and it couldn't be more appropriate in this case.

    Harry Truman: INTp/ILI


    A blunt man with a lot of common sense, Truman popularized the slogan "the buck stops here." Like many ILIs, Truman was possessed of a mixture of idealism and pragmatism that served him well in making tough decisions, (e.g. A-bombing Japan, Cold War policy, etc.) but made him seem stubborn and somewhat unsympathetic, (esp. in contrast to his Roosevelt, his likable dual.) At the time of his leaving office, he had very low polling numbers; however, in retrospect, many consider him a great President.

    Dwight D. Eisenhower: ESFp/SEE

    Like Roosevelt before him, many people simply liked Ike. In fact, "I like Ike" became a popular slogan during his term in office. Like many SEEs, Eisenhower attempted to put across an image of someone 'playing hard,' enjoying life to the fullest, (e.g. playing golf so much that many at the time considered him a 'puppet' President.) In truth, like many SEEs, Eisenhower worked extremely hard, but was good at disguising it. Before becoming President, he was 5-star general, most famous for the D-Day Invasion; however, as President he sliced the military budget and warned of the growing 'military-industrial complex.' He changed the American way-of-life forever with the Federal Highway Act. Although he was personally sympathetic to the growing Civil Rights movement, he felt that 'the time wasn't right' to legislate it.

    John F. Kennedy: ENFj/EIE

    Very charismatic, representing a new generation's hopeful ideals. Like many EIEs, (e.g. me w/ Socionics,) Kennedy required a 'learning curve' before becoming proficient at his job. Early on, he leaned on advisers for decision-making help; however, after several failures (e.g. the Bay of Pigs invasion,) Kennedy went against advisers' advice and offered public 'mea culpas,' taking full responsibility. This endeared him to many who had thought him too "arrogant" and "naive" to be President, (two frequent criticisms of EIEs, in general.) His natural charisma endeared him to many--including women with whom he cheated on his wife. Despite a short time in office, he left an indelible mark--as a figurehead for progress, service, and hope. His murder has cast a long shadow on this country.

    Lyndon B. Johnson: ESFp/SEE

    A master politician, unabashedly ambitious, aiming to become 'the greatest President of all-time.' Johnson was noted for the pressure he was able to exert on rivals, advisers.. Everyone! It was known as "The Johnson treatment." Like most SEEs, Johnson would alternately charm, scold, and bribe to get his way, (the combination of Se and Fi makes SEEs masters of this.) Many considered Johnson personally crude, e.g. he proposed 'the Great Society' legislation to aids while skinny-dipping in the White House hot-tub. That said, Johnson--like many SEEs--was extraordinarily compassionate. He enacted sweeping civil rights legislation--not because it was politically expedient, (it wasn't,) but because he felt it was the right thing to do.

    Richard M. Nixon: ISFj/ESI

    One of the most intelligent, hardest-working U.S. Presidents ever--prone to paranoia and obsessions with power, which led to his infamous downfall. Like most ESIs, Richard Nixon had an 'elephant's memory'; however, unlike most ESIs, Nixon used it to punish people he considered 'enemies.' He considered loyalty paramount, and went to extremes to ensure it, (e.g. wire-tapping the phones of White House advisers, and many journalists to prevent 'leaks.') Like many ESIs, he possessed a tremendous work ethic and gift for diplomatic strategy/vision, which enabled him to accomplish a lot in international diplomacy, e.g. ending the Vietnam War by playing the Russians and Chinese off of each other, all the while improving relations with both... Unfortunately, he saw enemies everywhere, was possessed of simultaneous inferiority and superiority complexes, and was truly too 'tricky' for his own good. The Watergate scandal--brought on by his paranoia and willingness to resort to any measure--made him the only President to ever resign.


    Gerald Ford: ISFj/ESI

    Like his predecessor, Ford was also ESI, (albeit the opposite subtype however, unlike his predecessor, Ford was a highly conciliatory, straight-forward, and mentally stable man. Ford's defining moment as US President was his pardoning of Richard Nixon. It displayed a typically ESI mixture of sympathy (and belief in Nixon's underlying goodness,) and pragmatism. (Ford believed that the Nixon scandal was interfering with his ability to govern effectively... Essentially, he had a country to run.) Typical of ESIs, Ford was athletic, (a college football player at Michigan,) moderate, and honest. He was a traditional family man, as well as an able legislator, (adept at building compromise and consensus.)


    Jimmy Carter: TBD (SEI or EII)

    Frankly, I can't decide between ISFp/SEI and INFj/EII for Jimmy Carter. I lean toward INFj. Carter's campaign as a Washington outsider appealed to many who'd felt burned by Nixon's administration. (Nixon was perhaps the ultimate Washington 'insider.') In line with the INFj typing, Carter was deeply religious, and governed from an idealistic--some criticized "too idealistic" and "naive"--Christian, moral perspective, e.g. he promised to "never lie to the American people." Like many INFjs, Carter preferred a simple, peaceful life--in many ways, in Washington, he was a fish out of water. He told the plain truth rather than sugar-coated it, (e.g. his 'malaise' speech depressed many people with its honesty.) His defining moment as President was brokering a peace accord between Egypt and Israel. As an ex-President, Carter has been tireless--and more effective--in pursuing his humanitarian ideals of peace and social justice.


    Ronald Reagan: ENFj/EIE

    A charismatic actor, a grandfatherly figurehead for American hope--"The Great Communicator." Like many EIEs, Ronald Reagan was not interested in details, (e.g. in policy meetings, he would doodle, and some say fall asleep,) but in 'the big picture.' For example, to him, Soviet communism was "a great evil;" America, by contrast, was a "shining city on a hill." Reagan was extremely idealistic, but unlike Carter, was able--through his speeches--to tap into America's ideals and dreams for a better future, AND SELL IT. He believed in lowering taxes, so he lowered them, (not caring that he was running up huge deficits.) He believed in fighting communism, so he fought it, (and some would say, 'won' the Cold War.) He believed in America as a great beacon of hope, and made people believe in it with him. Like many EIEs, Reagan was an affable, 'open-door' manager. He delegated responsibilities--so much so that he frequently didn't know what his own administration was doing, e.g. Iran Contra. Despite these faults, many Americans love Ronald Reagan--just as they love EIE John F. Kennedy--because of what he represented, as much as what he actually did.

    George H.W. Bush: TBD (ENTj or ESTj)

    EXTj... I lean toward ENTj, primarily b/c of inter-type relations, e.g. his wife, Barbara, I believe is ISFj. Also, Bush Sr. got along well with Reagan (they had 'Mexican Lunch Wednesdays' together for years--it seems like a good 'business' relationship.) Additionally, a lot of Bush's cabinet (many of whom were hold-overs from the Reagan years,) were Betas, e.g. James Baker (ISTj,) Dick Cheney, (ISTj.) This all makes more sense for a Gamma than a Delta. Bush Sr. was personally dry, politically moderate, and like many ENTjs, a pragmatic manager. For example, he reneged on his campaign promise of "no new taxes" in effort to boost the flagging American economy, (which had been decimated by Reagan-years deficits... Later, Bill Clinton's administration reaped the economic benefits of Bush's policies.) Bush was an effective diplomat. For example, he built world consensus for the Desert Storm War. Also, he ably managed that war. Many criticized Bush as aloof--and even a wimp. Famously, during the fall of the Berlin Wall, a journalist asked him why he wasn't more emotional and Bush responded, "I'm not an emotional guy."

    Bill Clinton: ENFj/EIE

    Charismatic, emotional, intelligent, (seemingly) empathetic, ambitious, over-indulgent... I've seen Rick's typing of Clinton as ESFj--and while I believe that Bush's VP, Al Gore, was alpha NT, I think that Clinton's Model A analysis and inter-type relations bear-out a beta NF typing. For example, his wife Hillary is ISTj, and almost all of the women Bill Clinton cheated on her with are betas too. Clinton is remembered for his (in retrospect) smarmy, seeming empathetic maxim, "I feel your pain." Like EIE Reagan, Clinton was a charismatic speaker and an 'open-door' manager, (some would say "chaotic," as he was nearly always late, and then ran-overtime--in almost everything.) An Si PoLR, Clinton lived indulgently in terms of food--famously jogging to McDonalds each day; and also in terms sex, having numerous affairs with vulnerable women. As with EIE President JFK, Clinton underwent a 'learning curve,' failing with his first major initiative, universal healthcare. His term, however, was an era of peace and prosperity, which is remembered comically for the President's quirks.

    George W. Bush: TBD (ENFj or ESFj)

    Like Reagan before him, what Bush Jr. believed, Bush Jr. did--without much regard for future consequences. An affable, decent man, who once lived a life of reckless over-indulgence (Si PoLR perhaps) and then one of strict regimentation (Ti dual-seeking perhaps,) Bush Jr. was not intellectually curious nor particularly open-minded to other points-of-view. Most EIEs, by contrast, are, (e.g. JFK, Reagan, Clinton.) Unlike those other EIEs, Bush Jr. was not a good public speaker. Also, in contrast to those other EIEs, Bush Jr. ran a very orderly, highly regimented White House, with a clear chain of command, (Ti systematization.) Some have claimed that Bush Jr. was a figurehead for the most dominant Vice President in US history, Dick Cheney (LSI.)

    Frankly, I've found Bush Jr. difficult to type. He seemed possessed of genuine decency and good intentions, but not much common sense or intellect. His understanding of situations appeared to be emotional, (e.g. his Fe-charged speeches following 9/11.) He lacked foresight (e.g. in the aftermath of toppling Saddam Hussein.) I've never met nor typed another EIE like him. I'm finding ESE increasingly plausible.

    Barack Obama: TBD (beta NF or ENTj or ISFj)
    I've seen him typed INFp/IEI, probably b/c he's an electrifying public speaker, able to connect with many peoples' ideals. However, at times, to me, he's seemed more Gamma, e.g. his political pragmatism, "No Drama Obama"... Regardless, Ni is obvious, as he seems to contemplate decisions longer than many, welcome many different points-of-view, (almost to a fault,) and couch his policies (and rhetoric) in historical perspective... The key to understanding Obama's Socionics type is in his inter-type relations, which I have not yet studied in any detail.
    Last edited by JuJu; 12-14-2009 at 02:04 AM.

  2. #2
    EffyCold thePirate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    TIM
    ??
    Posts
    1,897
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I heavily doubt Bill Clintons an ENFj

    Your rationale for this is that hes charismatic and cheated on his wife with betas, and ate mcdonalds every day and had affairs?

    This isnt a definitive typing right? Because none of that is susbtantial enough to verify this claim.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

  3. #3
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Canada's Prairie Farmland
    TIM
    C-LII
    Posts
    2,647
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I would say that W. is SLE. The aggressive foreign policy, the clear chain of command, even his habit of giving nicknames to people is a trait I've commonly observed in SLEs.

    I'd also probably agree with Rick that Clinton is ESE. Kennedy and Reagan, who I would agree were EIE, were known for their inspirational vision; Clinton is known mainly for his personal charm. Also, I don't get duality vibes from him and his wife. I could see semi-duality.

    Not sure about Obama -- I'd guess EIE. Michelle could be LSI.

    I'd go with EII for Carter. That's just an intuitive impression, nothing solid.

    I don't really know enough about the personalities of the others to have anything to contribute there.
    Quaero Veritas.

  4. #4
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    I heavily doubt Bill Clintons an ENFj

    Your rationale for this is that hes charismatic and cheated on his wife with betas, and ate mcdonalds every day and had affairs?

    This isnt a definitive typing right? Because none of that is susbtantial enough to verify this claim.
    Re: Clinton's quadra values

    Fe leading is obvious is his emotional speeches, his "I feel your pain" listening, his handshakes that extend all the way up one's arm until they turn into hugs... Clinton can 'work a room' and talk his way into/out-of most things (sometimes to his own detriment.) His emotional understanding of others is immense, and incisive--this is what has made him an excellent politician. He can say exactly what you want and need to hear at a particular moment.

    His Ni is obvious in that he couches his rhetoric, and seemingly his own self-image, in terms of history... Very conscious of how 'history will view' him. (This is connected with his Se hidden agenda.)

    Hi Si PoLR is obvious in terms of his over-eating, over-caffeinating, womanizing... Since his Presidency ended, some have alleged he's lived a life that borders on dissolute... This is what an Si PoLR leads to... Over-indulgence.

    His Ti dual-seeking also seems obvious, in terms of his Ti leading wife... In terms of him being a 'policy wonk'--he wanted legislature to make sense. (He was more interested in this than EIE Reagan; he was also somewhat more intellectual in his understanding of policies.) Opinion polls dictated a lot of his politics as President.

    Hi Se hidden agenda is obvious, I think, in his own self-aggrandizement and pursuit of historical importance, e.g. his IMMENSE Presidential library, his over-blown, name-dropping memoir, his continual desire to be involved in 'power,' e.g. brokering Mideast peace deals, his obvious desire, during the '08 campaign, to be back in power (with his wife.)

    ...And that covers the basics.
    Last edited by JuJu; 12-14-2009 at 02:07 AM.

  5. #5
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    Even though I have no immediate problems with Clinton as EIE, did he actually write his "I feel your pain" Speech? Cause if he didn't it's kinda a moot point.
    It wasn't a specific speech... That slogan became famous as something Clinton said in conversation to various ppl while on the campaign trail, after listening to them bitch.

  6. #6
    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,808
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    It wasn't a specific speech... It was something he said to people all the time on the campaign trail, while listening to people bitch.
    Right lol That's why I deleted my post :S

    In any case why is FDR SEE > SLE?
    Easy Day

  7. #7
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    Right lol That's why I deleted my post :S

    In any case why is FDR SEE > SLE?
    This is a good question... To me, it's a matter of evidenced Fi>Ti (which I'll explain) and inter-type relations.

    For Fi: FDR is said to have had tremendous emotional intelligence. He had an ability to empathize with the lowest in society, despite coming from one of the country's most aristocratic families. He used this empathy to legislate social justice (via 'The New Deal,' which provided for the poor, the disabled, etc.) In terms of the Socionics Reinen dichotomies, (some of which are very minor; some of which aren't,) FDR's is a clear case of democratic values [alpha/gamma]>aristocratic values [beta/delta.] His speeches, and 'fireside chats' on radio were infused with dramatic rhetoric, which sometimes bordered on pep talks.

    Against Ti: FDR ran a completely chaotic Oval Office, with people coming and going constantly... There was no need/desire for any sort of structure... His personal and management style was the antithesis of systematic and regimented.

    The love of FDR's life is said not to have been Eleanor Roosevelt, but ILI Lucy Mercer... He consorted mostly with Gammas--Truman and FDR's previous VP, Henry Wallace, were both Gamma NTs.

  8. #8
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I would say that W. is SLE. The aggressive foreign policy, the clear chain of command, even his habit of giving nicknames to people is a trait I've commonly observed in SLEs.

    Not sure about Obama -- I'd guess EIE. Michelle could be LSI.
    I'll think about SLE for Bush Jr... tbh, he's baffling to me.

    Michelle could be beta ST... Good call.

  9. #9
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Obama is EII, Michelle is LSE. Carter was EII as well.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  10. #10
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Obama is EII, Michelle is LSE. Carter was EII as well.
    I agree about Carter, (although I still think SEI could make sense, so I can't say definitely.) I don't buy INFj at all for Obama... He's a pretty clear Ni type, ruling out any Delta type.

    He might be INFJ in MBTI--but by functions, in Socionics... No.

    Any similarities you're seeing are based on the Democratic party platform, (which Clinton mostly ignored in favor of political polling.)

  11. #11
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    I don't buy INFj at all for Obama... He's a pretty clear Ni type, ruling out any Delta type.
    How is Obama Ni? I see a 3w4 with 1w9 in his trifix, Fi subtype EII. Charismatic but restrained, appealing to overall values of a well-calculated cross-section; a populist of sorts. Not really making waves in office; just placating people with minor issues to avoid the truth of the matter which is that he isn't changing much at all..
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  12. #12
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    How is Obama Ni? I see a 3w4 with 1w9 in his trifix, Fi subtype EII. Charismatic but restrained, appealing to overall values of a well-calculated cross-section; a populist of sorts. Not really making waves in office; just placating people with minor issues to avoid the truth of the matter which is that he isn't changing much at all..
    I don't do the Enneagram stuff... I think it's mostly bs, (not a good, coherent Ti system.) To conflate Socionics with the Enneagram, I think, is a mistake. (They evaluate totally different things.)

    As for Socionics:

    Obama couches nearly all of his speeches and political rhetoric in Ni, 'historical perspective' terms... Or in Ni metaphor, usually touching on (you're right) populist/Americana themes.

    For example, these are typical Obama Ni statements:

    "Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek."

    In this typical line, he speaks of himself, America, and the American people as part of the unfolding story of history... A story that has potential to change greatly--if we act 'now.' This is Obama's 'sense of the right moment.' This is Ni perspective.

    To touch on what you wrote about re: Populism:

    "Focusing your life solely on making a buck shows a certain poverty of ambition. It asks too little of yourself. Because it's only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential."

    Here Obama touches on populism, using American pioneer imagery (i.e. "hitch a wagon") to put across his point as regards how to achieve true progress/success. Couching ideas in historical terms--thus layering the meanings of his sentences with various historical connotations--is one of the hallmarks of Ni speech and writing.

    One rarely if ever heard comparable rhetoric from probable EII Carter. Carter spoke of the current rather than the historical, sans sugar-coating. e.g. Carter's famous 'malaise' speech, which depressed enough people into handing Reagan a 1980 landslide.

    In other words, if Obama's Fi, (I'm not sold on that yet,) he's certainly Gamma; not Delta.


    Personal Opinion:


    B/c of Obama's healthcare proposal--and subsequently, the Republicans callous, almost sickening counter-offer (a couple thousand dollars in a healthcare savings account, which wouldn't even cover the cost of one night at a hospital or detox! They seriously warned, "think twice about getting sick.")--b/c of that, I became a Democrat, (something I never thought I'd do.)

    A person I know recently lost EVERYTHING--a house and possessions--b/c while she was temporarily laid-off from her job, she fainted at a Dunkin' Donuts in Wellesley, Mass. B/c she's a NY resident without current healthcare coverage, she was billed for her entire 2 day hospital stay--10s of thousands of dollars!! She doesn't have it and is totally ruined.

    I'm literally praying that Obama's healthcare legislation passes.
    Last edited by JuJu; 12-14-2009 at 05:52 AM.

  13. #13
    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Spain
    TIM
    ILE (ENTp)
    Posts
    4,866
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default x

    My opinion:

    Ronald Wilson Reagan: Fe-ENFj

    George Herbert Walker 41 Bush: Te-ENTj

    William Bill Jefferson Lewinsky-Clinton: Ti-ESTp
    VP Al Gore: Ti-ISTj?
    Hillary Clinton: Fi-ISFj

    George Walker Bush 43: Se-ESTp
    VP Dick Cheney: Ti-ESTp

    Barack Hussein Obama: Fi-ESFp
    VP Joe Biden: Ti-ENTp

    Howard T. Ackerman (Red Alert 3): Ni-ENTj





    "Are you ready to send those commies running back to their mommies"

    "If you don't stop'em over there, the only thing standing between those godless reds and the US, is gonna be just one little ocean"
    Last edited by 1981slater; 12-14-2009 at 01:28 PM.
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

  14. #14
    Rocket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    120
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Bush Jr strikes me as INFP.

    He has been praised for his good sense in selecting people (fits with INFP) and i doubt "lack of foresight" could be attributed personally to him as distinct from his administration. The aggressive foreign policy etc. can be explained by beta values coming to the fore.

    I believe Obama & Clinton to be ENFJ.

    Oddly enough given the realities of modern american politics i can see a long stream of ENFJ/INFP presidents .... all other types face major pitfalls. Thinkers will inevitably alienate large sections of society with outspoken attitudes and feelers outside of Beta will find it difficult to garner the necessary support from the powerful (which i will assume to tend toward Beta).
    ILE

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saugerties,NY
    TIM
    ENFj-fe
    Posts
    947
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I highly doubt Obama is EIE, I think he is actually , which can be confused with an EIE, especially an ni sub. I just get gamma values coming from this guy; and usually an EIE would be much more effective with crowd pleasing; this shout out he gave for his speech about Fort Hood points to role if you ask me:

    EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1


    As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
    Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962

  16. #16
    Marie84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    TIM
    EII
    Posts
    2,359
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think you're probably right about most, if not all, of these

    I do however agree with the people who type Carter SEI>EII, not just due to intertype relations but also what seemed like a PoLR Te in his presidency and an Si dominant approach

    "Carter paid too much attention to detail, was quick to retreat under fire, seemed indecisive, and did not define his priorities clearly."

    Overly focused on the present state, weak Ni

    "He seemed uninterested in working with other groups, or even with Congress controlled by his own party, which he denounced for being controlled by special interest groups"


    Ti valuers tend to trust their own judgment rather than seek external sources


    Anyways, I could be wrong...
    EII INFj
    Forum status: retired

  17. #17
    Marie84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    TIM
    EII
    Posts
    2,359
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    Oddly enough given the realities of modern american politics i can see a long stream of ENFJ/INFP presidents .... all other types face major pitfalls. Thinkers will inevitably alienate large sections of society with outspoken attitudes and feelers outside of Beta will find it difficult to garner the necessary support from the powerful (which i will assume to tend toward Beta).
    Yah, I think you're onto something here.
    American's also have a tendency towards following the cult of personality, especially with it's sensationalistic media, in which Beta NF's can easily manipulate this element for their benefit
    EII INFj
    Forum status: retired

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saugerties,NY
    TIM
    ENFj-fe
    Posts
    947
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    George W. Bush is not any where near to being EJ temperment; if anything I would go for IP because of his lack of charisma and lack of articulation. I would say SLI, he gives the impression of Delta values; and someone who purportedly stated that God wanted him to be president does not have in his ego.
    EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1


    As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
    Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962

  19. #19
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Rocket -- that's a good suggestion for George W. Bush... I think that the key to understanding Bush's type is in his (personal) inter-type relations... For example, does anyone have an idea about his wife, Laura's Sociotype?

    Morcheeba -- my instinct tells me that you're right about Obama's type, i.e. that he's ENTj... (If he seems XXFx, it may be b/c of the social justice/human rights bent of the current Democratic Party platform.) In Socionics terms--what's disappointing a lot of people right now about Obama, I think, is that he's not the fiery beta NF change-agent portrayed during the campaign... Rather he's politically pragmatic, and moderate, like Bush 1, another ENTj.

    Marie84 -- It's true, I can't shake the idea that Carter is SEI... As for VI, Carter's demeanor/gaze is in line with a SEI typing.

    About future U.S. President's types:

    It's been pretty much a rule over the past 75 years--U.S. Presidents are either Gamma or Beta, (the ONLY exception being Carter--a one-term anomaly and direct reaction to Nixon.) Gore, an Alpha, nearly made it in 2000.

    I think that this will hold true... That most US Presidents will continue to be Beta or Gamma. (For example, McCain, in this last Presidential election, was Gamma. John Kerry, in the previous election, was INFp.) The types with the best chances are, as usual, SEE, LIE, ESI, IEI, and EIE, (with lots of LSIs behind them...) I think that ILIs might have more difficulty now than in, say, Truman's time.
    Last edited by JuJu; 12-14-2009 at 05:20 PM.

  20. #20
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    George W. Bush is not any where near to being EJ temperment; if anything I would go for IP because of his lack of charisma and lack of articulation. I would say SLI, he gives the impression of Delta values; and someone who purportedly stated that God wanted him to be president does not have in his ego.
    These are good points you make.

    Devil's advocate for Bush II's type:

    On the other hand though, (i.e. pro-Ej temperament, not delta,) it's tough to account for Bush's insistence on strict regimentation, personally and as President--not just in terms of 'chain-of-command' (Ti) but in terms of promptness, of being purposeful, of being extremely scheduled w/ everything down to his exercise regimen... These are all things one could associate with EJ temperament rather than the IP temperament.

    Furthermore, it doesn't make much sense for a Delta to pick a nearly all-beta cabinet and staff... Surely, Delta values would lead him to pick at least one Delta..?

    Also, against a typing of SLI: Bush is pretty gregarious in social situations. He's great campaigner... Very likable, personally, (even for me, who disagrees with a lot of what he did politically as President...) Back at Andover, he was a cheerleader (!) In responding to 9/11, he was able to touch ppl with Fe rhetoric. (This makes me think that he's, at least, Fe valuing, if not leading.)

    Bush II is a difficult typing overall, I think... I've seen him typed in literally every quadra... And I still don't know.
    Last edited by JuJu; 12-14-2009 at 06:30 PM.

  21. #21
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'd say Bush Jr. is ESE.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  22. #22
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I'd say Bush Jr. is ESE.
    The more that I think about it, the more I agree with you... What is it about Bush II that makes you think ESE..?

    I wonder if we see the same things in him, Socionics-wise.

  23. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    GWB = LSE

  24. #24
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    GWB = LSE
    Post #21 has some questions about GWB as a delta... e.g. why so many betas in his cabinet? why such Ti regimentation, both personally and as president..?

    Why such affability, and ability to connect with people (esp. in his Fe-laden, immediately post-9/11 speeches?)

    He could be ESTJ in MBTI, but in Socionics, one would have to explain away a lot of his behaviors to make that typing fit.

  25. #25
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Canada's Prairie Farmland
    TIM
    C-LII
    Posts
    2,647
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Post #21 has some questions about GWB as a delta... e.g. why so many betas in his cabinet? why such Ti regimentation, both personally and as president..?

    Why such affability, and ability to connect with people (esp. in his Fe-laden, immediately post-9/11 speeches?)

    He could be ESTJ in MBTI, but in Socionics, one would have to explain away a lot of his behaviors to make that typing fit.
    Like I said, I think W's strong use of Ti points toward Beta ST. His Fe-laden speeches immediately after 9-11 can be attributed to the fact that 9-11 stirred up a lot of Fe in everyone, including him.

    The popular caricatures of W are "stupid frat boy/jock" and "cowboy" (also "Hitler", but that was more about how much people hated him, not anything to do with his actual personality). Both of those caricatures are more ST than NF or the other clubs.
    Quaero Veritas.

  26. #26
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Like I said, I think W's strong use of Ti points toward Beta ST. His Fe-laden speeches immediately after 9-11 can be attributed to the fact that 9-11 stirred up a lot of Fe in everyone, including him.

    The popular caricatures of W are "stupid frat boy/jock" and "cowboy" (also "Hitler", but that was more about how much people hated him, not anything to do with his actual personality). Both of those caricatures are more ST than NF or the other clubs.
    This is good stuff... You're right about it all.

  27. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Post #21 has some questions about GWB as a delta... e.g. why so many betas in his cabinet?
    Deltas often falsely interpret Beta as -focused compassion. While they see Gammas as driven and competent, they also see them as cold and "missing the point." Betas, on the other hand, are seen as having the same drive as Gammas while sharing the Deltas' compassionate worldview.

    Good thing the real boss was an LIE.

    why such Ti regimentation
    both personally
    You're seeing a Delta focus on personal wellness and confusing it for a Beta focus on personal power.

    Bush would go jogging and take breaks because he saw doing so as essential to his health and his ability to do his job, not because he wanted to look good. Obama is a good example of the Beta style of working out to look good in a bathing suit.

    and as president..?
    Like Betas, Deltas are hierarchical/aristocratic. But while Deltas are more likely to apply this view to matters of tradition (Bush's insistence on wearing formal attire in the Oval Office out of reverence to the office), Betas are more inclined to apply aristocratic views to a particular " figurehead" and their relationship to it.

    Why such affability, and ability to connect with people (esp. in his Fe-laden, immediately post-9/11 speeches?)
    I would argue that his constant verbal stumbling when making speeches and when "on guard" are because is actually his role function, requiring him to exert constant mental effort when trying to emotionally appeal to people.

    His post-9/11 speeches were successful in this regard because people weren't looking for much more than acknowledgment that the president was about to enact vengeance onto the people responsible for the attacks. He didn't have to use Fe in these speeches because he was being totally honest with everyone, just stating his intentions with pure . His earnestness was why he was so popular at that time.

    (Also, I think LIEs are less prone than LSEs to verbal stumbling because LIEs don't have any sense of the way their words make people feel, and only worry about it in their personal relationships. I think can substitute for in a way (but not when making speeches), since it implies a degree of awareness of a person's internal state. An LIE completely ignores , and is therefore better able to speak without reservation.)

  28. #28
    JohnDo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    TIM
    LII-IEI
    Posts
    638
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't know much about American Presidents before Clinton but I strongly disagree with your typings of Clinton, Bush and Obama.

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Bill Clinton: ENFj/EIE

    Charismatic, emotional, intelligent, (seemingly) empathetic, ambitious, over-indulgent... I've seen Rick's typing of Clinton as ESFj--and while I believe that Bush's VP, Al Gore, was alpha NT, I think that Clinton's Model A analysis and inter-type relations bear-out a beta NF typing. For example, his wife Hillary is ISTj, and almost all of the women Bill Clinton cheated on her with are betas too.
    I think Bill is Se-ESFp, Hillary Ne-INTj. A conflict relation, that's why Bill cheated on her so often


    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    George W. Bush: TBD (ENFj or ESFj)

    Like Reagan before him, what Bush Jr. believed, Bush Jr. did--without much regard for future consequences. An affable, decent man, who once lived a life of reckless over-indulgence (Si PoLR perhaps) and then one of strict regimentation (Ti dual-seeking perhaps,) Bush Jr. was not intellectually curious nor particularly open-minded to other points-of-view. [...] I've never met nor typed another EIE like him. I'm finding ESE increasingly plausible.
    Little regard for future consequences and lack of intellectual curiousity / open-mindedness make me sure he is sensory. If you never typed another EIE like him he probably isn't EIE.

    Invading Afghanistan and Iraq for getting oil is clearly -related. I'm sure he is ESTj, creative subtype. ESFjs normally don't invade other countries to steal their ressources

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Barack Obama: TBD (beta NF or ENTj or ISFj)
    I've seen him typed INFp/IEI, probably b/c he's an electrifying public speaker, able to connect with many peoples' ideals.
    Why can't he be a Gamma-NF? MBTI-practicioneers type him ENFP and I think ENFp also fits. Certainly not a Gamma...

  29. #29
    JuJu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Springfield, Massachusetts, USA
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    2,704
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    JohnDo:

    Welcome to Socionics. I'm glad you've found the emoticons.

    (hey strrrng, this one's yours! lol)
    Last edited by JuJu; 12-15-2009 at 06:03 AM.

  30. #30
    The Greeter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    602
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Deltas often falsely interpret Beta as -focused compassion. While they see Gammas as driven and competent, they also see them as cold and "missing the point." Betas, on the other hand, are seen as having the same drive as Gammas while sharing the Deltas' compassionate worldview.

    Good thing the real boss was an LIE.
    Beta Fe is nothing like any Si, or Si-type behaviour. Gammas are not seen as cold but "missing the point" seems accurate (but obviously the feeling is mutual between both Delta and Gamma). Betas on the other hand are seen as having similar compassionate views but Deltas disagree on the way these compassions are expressed. But really, these views are uncomfortably simplistic.


    You're seeing a Delta focus on personal wellness and confusing it for a Beta focus on personal power.

    Bush would go jogging and take breaks because he saw doing so as essential to his health and his ability to do his job, not because he wanted to look good. Obama is a good example of the Beta style of working out to look good in a bathing suit.
    Okay... First of all, he's an older person. Everybody looks out for their age by then, including Si, Ne, Ni, Se types.


    Like Betas, Deltas are hierarchical/aristocratic. But while Deltas are more likely to apply this view to matters of tradition (Bush's insistence on wearing formal attire in the Oval Office out of reverence to the office), Betas are more inclined to apply aristocratic views to a particular " figurehead" and their relationship to it.
    Deltas are not hierarchical (Ti-devalued). I am not going to directly state what functions formality and whatnot are related to, but I will cite examples from the past century's dictatorships, all of which had strict formalism, including uniforms and rituals.


    I would argue that his constant verbal stumbling when making speeches and when "on guard" are because is actually his role function, requiring him to exert constant mental effort when trying to emotionally appeal to people.
    Or that he is untalented in this area, unless we assume Fe automatically equates to exceptional verbal competence. Of course, we know this is not true. Keep in mind that Bush, though he had no on-screen charisma, was known for his off-screen presence and his interpersonal abilities.

    His post-9/11 speeches were successful in this regard because people weren't looking for much more than acknowledgment that the president was about to enact vengeance onto the people responsible for the attacks. He didn't have to use Fe in these speeches because he was being totally honest with everyone, just stating his intentions with pure . His earnestness was why he was so popular at that time.
    Pure intentions and honesty is not related to any particular function. You assume that a Fe would just dramaticize the situation for no reason, thus cannot be earnest? That's absurd.

    (Also, I think LIEs are less prone than LSEs to verbal stumbling because LIEs don't have any sense of the way their words make people feel, and only worry about it in their personal relationships. I think can substitute for in a way (but not when making speeches), since it implies a degree of awareness of a person's internal state. An LIE completely ignores , and is therefore better able to speak without reservation.)
    You need to differentiate Fe+Si from Si. If you associate Fe-role with speech stumbling, then you have to apply this rule for both LIEs and LSEs. You claim that LIE's are more articulate because of their lack of Si, when I can easily claim that LSE's are articulate with words because of their strong Si thus being able to control their internal state, which consequently means LIEs are less articulate.
    Ceci n'est pas une eii.




  31. #31
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Canada's Prairie Farmland
    TIM
    C-LII
    Posts
    2,647
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    I don't know much about American Presidents before Clinton but I strongly disagree with your typings of Clinton, Bush and Obama.
    I think you need to learn socionics better before you go around strongly disagreeing with people.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    I think Bill is Se-ESFp, Hillary Ne-INTj. A conflict relation, that's why Bill cheated on her so often
    Right. A Conflict marriage which not only has survived 3 decades, but serial infidelity as well. That happens all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Invading Afghanistan and Iraq for getting oil is clearly -related. I'm sure he is ESTj, creative subtype. ESFjs normally don't invade other countries to steal their ressources
    Ah, W invaded Afghanistan for all its oil! I suppose he also blew up the WTC as an excuse to invade, right? Don't worry, the black helicopters are outside your house even now!

    You're trying to type an imaginary character. This is why controversial people can be so hard to type -- people start to choose what to believe based on emotion, not logic, leading to all sorts of crazy misconceptions. They believe what they want to be true. You can't accurately type someone unless you have an accurate perception of what they're really like and what they've really done.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Why can't he be a Gamma-NF? MBTI-practicioneers type him ENFP and I think ENFp also fits. Certainly not a Gamma...
    In my experience, MBTI is slightly more useful than palm-reading, but not quite as good as those fake psychics you see on T.V.
    Quaero Veritas.

  32. #32
    JohnDo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    TIM
    LII-IEI
    Posts
    638
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I think you need to learn socionics better before you go around strongly disagreeing with people.
    You are certainly not in a position to judge my knowledge.
    Why am I not allowed to disagree or strongly disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Right. A Conflict marriage which not only has survived 3 decades, but serial infidelity as well. That happens all the time.
    It may happen, yes...
    Why not? There are even people who fuck their mother or their dog. Why not fuck your conflictor for decades when there are also the Lewinskis and other pussies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    You're trying to type an imaginary character. This is why controversial people can be so hard to type -- people start to choose what to believe based on emotion, not logic, leading to all sorts of crazy misconceptions. They believe what they want to be true. You can't accurately type someone unless you have an accurate perception of what they're really like and what they've really done.
    Yes, it is difficult. But George W. Bush clearly shows (money, money, money) as base function and as PolR (unable to foresee anything, worst US president of all time). So I'm sure he is ESTj.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    In my experience, MBTI is slightly more useful than palm-reading, but not quite as good as those fake psychics you see on T.V.
    If you type by descriptions it's nearly the same as socionics. Just ignore MBTI's functional model and everything is alright...

  33. #33
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    BUSH: I suspect George Bush is an Beta ST, leaning towards LSI. He gets on well with Karl Rove, I believe, who I am almost positive is Ni-leading. Honestly, George's problem is that he was just culturally of another epoch than the current time. He's from an age that people were nostalgic for, and that they wished would come back, but as his presidency went on, and especially in his second term, it became clear that he did not adapt culturally to the new paradigms of how we think about nation-states, the USA's role in the world, etc. Now, I think this can be explained in terms of weak Fi, although perhaps an argument could be made for weak Fe too. But in my opinion, Bush failed to realize that he had to be much more sensitive to how his actions affected his relationships, rather than others' emotions. Bush didn't have a good understanding of how his actions would change others' dispositions towards him and his administration. Also, many of his notable PR failures were due to him not observing some social custom or another: mispronouncing a name, not picking up on and following another country's customs, etc.

    Interview:


    Quote: "the United Nations said [to Saddam Hussein], 'disarm or face serious consequences'... and guess what, he didn't disarm and he faced serious consequences." Notice the cut and dry Ti syllogistic logic here: "Either a (disarm) or b (consequences), not a, therefore b." Obviously, one can see how Ne would be a threat to this.

    Quote: "You'll ask the questions and I'll answer 'em if you don't mind." This quote came after he (rather sternly) insisted that the (female) interviewer let him finish his replies. Bush, as an LSI (Ti + Se), has a hard time viewing the interview as an informal conversation, and views it more as a competition of sorts; the interviewer is trying to "trap" or "embarass" him, and he's trying to get out of it. He expects a very clear question and answer format. I read this as related to Se (seeing an interview as a contest; focusing on the power relations therein) as well as Ti (expecting a very clear-cut formalized sort of "combat" in the question-answer format, rather than a looser overlapping sot of conversation).

    By the way, I mention that the interviewer was female only because I got a twinge of paternalism from Bush in some of his replies to her, which, while not type related, is perhaps a vice that beta STs and beta males in general tend to be more inclined towards. This is perhaps related to victim-aggressor romance styles and to the possibility that Se, with its focus on the information received from the senses, might have a harder time adjusting to the assumption that there is little-to-no internal difference between the sexes since the Se-ego's senses tell him so obviously that there are differences.


    OBAMA: President Obama is a clear beta NF to me. He seems very concerned with development of things over time, and speaks in arching narratives of thematic importance. He also is fairly crafty in a way I associate with Ni + Fe, like when he spoke about his last name in the DNC 2004 speech that really put him on the map: "They would give me an African name, Barack, or "blessed," believing that in a tolerant America your name is no barrier to success." This was clearly a way to head that particular (bigoted) complaint off at the pass, and he did so really deftly with a lot of tact. I'm shocked if he's not an Fe ego.

    Now, it does appear that in office he's behaved very pragmatically, but I don't get Te-ego out of that, or at least I think it's as well explained by Ni, which could assess the situation in Washington and determine that pushing through too many initiatives at once would ultimately be detrimental. Also, there's a degree to which decision-making at that level is somewhat occluded, since the President is privy to information that the citizens at large are not. This certainly doesn't make a President less culpable (or typeable) based on his actions, but it does add a level of uncertainty to matters.


    MRS. OBAMA: Now, Mrs. Obama is a tough story.

    Interview:

    Analysis:
    At first I totally thought: Se ego! But after watching the interview, I'm getting much more of a Te vibe from her. To me, Se egos and Te egos can come off similarly driven, and driven is certainly a word I'd use to describe Mrs. Obama. I decided this based on the different social vibes I get from Te-egos and Se-egos. Se-leading types tend to be more goofy and affable and unreserved in social settings. Te-leading types, on the other hand, tend to view social interactions much more formally unless they are with a specific group of people whom they trust and have strong bonds with (Fi-seeking). We see the latter style with Mrs. Obama in the interviews that I've seen. She has a degree of formality to her that is expressed in a way that I haven't seen with Se-egos. Te-leading types tend to be social reserved (again, in situations without already-existing Fi-bonds in the same way that SLEs can be reserved in atmospheres without Fe), but I'm using reserved in a very specific way. For this meaning of reserved, I envision a scale between projecting an image that has no connection to one's actual internal state at the moment, and projecting an image that is 100% equivalent to one's internal state at the moment. Reserved, in this case, means that one tends toward less connection between the image projected and the internal state. David Lee Roth, in the interview with Charlie Rose Juju posted in another thread, seems to be projecting an image that is very close to his actual internal state at the moment, whereas Mrs. Obama, in the interview with Larry King I've watched, while she reports her opinions and beliefs 100% accurately, does not seem to be acting in a way to corresponds to her internal state very much at all. She's not saying anything she doesn't mean by any means, but she's just not expressing her internal state.


    CLINTON: Clear EIE. Mad Fe skills, with clear Ni creative.

    Interview:

    Analysis:
    Quote: "Yeah, but the way you said it, it sounds almost morbid. The way I said it, the tone in which I said it was almost whimsical and humorous" This is clear Fe: focus on tone, manner of expression, how different ways of expressing oneself leads to different emotional responses in the listener, different set of associations, etc.

    Quote: "I think I owe it to the my countrymen, to the rest of the world, to spend time saving lives, solving problems, helping people see the future." I read this as clear Ni creative to serve Fe purposes. That is, he has an Fe focus on people and their internal states, and he uses Ni to help people, which for an Fe-ego means to improve their internal (emotional) state. You can tell the difference between Te helping people and Fe helping people because Fe helping people will be much more warmed by the knowledge that the person they helped is *happier*. Same kind of action, different emphasis. (I'm not sure what aspect the Te-ego would emphasize)

    Quote: "When you're president, you can operate on a much broader scope... you have a lot of different moving parts... but you're also more at the mercy of events." I don't have evidence, but how he said this made me think Ni immediately. That's sort of how I might analyze a system. No way Bill's IEI, though; the IP temperment does not fit him in any way shape or form. Also, Bill is a really smart guy. Really smart. I like him.

    Quote: "Tomorrow when I get up, if there's a bad headline in the paper, it's President Bush's [he starts to say problem]... responsibility." This is Fi-EDIT: demonstrative ignoring. Everyone knows what he wants to say, which is problem, and that's perfectly in keeping with Fe; it would make people laugh, it would raise the emotional atmosphere. But he's also extremely sensitive to the fact that saying "problem" would probably offend somebody, so he substitutes a better word on the fly. This is something that would fluster Bush to no end, but it's just an easy fix for Clinton. He has to think about it (this isn't his preferred method of interaction), but he's very capable of making the correction mid-sentence.

    Also, Se HA fits Bill extremely well, and much better than Se-ego/leading, in my opinion. I don't really have rationale for this, but it strikes me intuitively as extremely accurate.
    Last edited by silverchris9; 12-17-2009 at 12:16 PM.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  34. #34
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Yes, it is difficult. But George W. Bush clearly shows (money, money, money) as base function and as PolR (unable to foresee anything, worst US president of all time). So I'm sure he is ESTj.
    I don't normally like to attack people's understanding of socionics, but I think you need to seriously reevaluate your understanding, as it's far too generalized to be at all useful in understanding personality via socionics. Te = money and weak Ni = bad president... I'm sure you can see how this is not only a complete caricature of Bush, but also a caricature of socionics, since any type can be focused on money if their circumstances in life have worked out a certain way, and certainly any type can be a bad president. I'm an IEI and I think I have great Ni, but I would definitely be the real worst president in US history. Also, I think you could probably refine your understanding of foresight as well.

    Anyway, sorry to attack you, since I know that you're new to 16types, so welcome! Please continue to contribute, but know that people will probably be fairly harsh based on your current way of explaining yourself.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  35. #35
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    Beta Fe is nothing like any Si, or Si-type behaviour. Gammas are not seen as cold but "missing the point" seems accurate (but obviously the feeling is mutual between both Delta and Gamma). Betas on the other hand are seen as having similar compassionate views but Deltas disagree on the way these compassions are expressed. But really, these views are uncomfortably simplistic.


    Okay... First of all, he's an older person. Everybody looks out for their age by then, including Si, Ne, Ni, Se types.


    Deltas are not hierarchical (Ti-devalued). I am not going to directly state what functions formality and whatnot are related to, but I will cite examples from the past century's dictatorships, all of which had strict formalism, including uniforms and rituals.


    Or that he is untalented in this area, unless we assume Fe automatically equates to exceptional verbal competence. Of course, we know this is not true. Keep in mind that Bush, though he had no on-screen charisma, was known for his off-screen presence and his interpersonal abilities.

    Pure intentions and honesty is not related to any particular function. You assume that a Fe would just dramaticize the situation for no reason, thus cannot be earnest? That's absurd.

    You need to differentiate Fe+Si from Si. If you associate Fe-role with speech stumbling, then you have to apply this rule for both LIEs and LSEs. You claim that LIE's are more articulate because of their lack of Si, when I can easily claim that LSE's are articulate with words because of their strong Si thus being able to control their internal state, which consequently means LIEs are less articulate.
    Your misconceptions regarding Socionics are too severe for me to bother. Basically, everything you said is wrong and amateurish.

  36. #36
    without the nose Cyrano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio USA
    Posts
    1,021
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    George W. Bush is not any where near to being EJ temperment; if anything I would go for IP because of his lack of charisma and lack of articulation. I would say SLI, he gives the impression of Delta values; and someone who purportedly stated that God wanted him to be president does not have in his ego.
    OH Good GOD NO! Please not SLI. I'd have to have type change surgery.
    ISTp
    SLI

    Enneagram 5 with a side of wings.

  37. #37
    Blaze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    5,725
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i kinda had obama pegged as an IEI. he totally seems introverted plus ethical. i thought IEE for awhile, but no way. def beta, def IEI.

    i agree with SEE for reagan and for FDR. the rest i am not sure about. overall, it's pretty hard to type politicians since they're always pandering to the crowd, i imagine there's a high level of fakery there.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

  38. #38

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saugerties,NY
    TIM
    ENFj-fe
    Posts
    947
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    i kinda had obama pegged as an IEI. he totally seems introverted plus ethical. i thought IEE for awhile, but no way. def beta, def IEI.

    i agree with SEE for reagan and for FDR. the rest i am not sure about. overall, it's pretty hard to type politicians since they're always pandering to the crowd, i imagine there's a high level of fakery there.
    Yeah, politics makes socionics difficult on the basis of all the fakeness and the ability for these people to be puppets for whatever the public thinks they want from a president. Of course, what people think they want and what they really want are two different things.
    EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1


    As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
    Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962

  39. #39
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Also, the fact that Bush is culturally behind is part of what makes it easy to type him as delta, when I don't think that he is. This sounds stupid, but my rationale is that generally we associate delta with the "old age" quadra, and perhaps the fact that Bush is culturally "old" or conservative makes it easy to view him as socionics'ly "old" or conservative? Also, although I know typing by weak functions is bad, I totally see Bush as Ne polr > Ni polr, largely for the reasons that I've talked about with him just not accepting the change that has occurred not only in how other groups see America, morality, and the Republican party, but in how America, moral leaders, and the Republican party see themselves, respectively (weakness in accepting new ideas).
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  40. #40
    The Greeter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    602
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Your misconceptions regarding Socionics are too severe for me to bother. Basically, everything you said is wrong and amateurish.

    You're right. I am not well-versed in the variant of Socionics that claims Fe + Ni is similar to Si (truly an indication of knowing the functions well) or one that states a truth applicable to 2 of the possible 16 cases, and then immediately makes an exception for one of them.
    Ceci n'est pas une eii.




Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •