Questions about Enneagram Type 3
Is Enneagram 3 about simply trying to look good to others? Or is it about defining an image of your ideal self and then using external feedback (whether it's input from other people, grades, income, assignment to leadership positions, or any other external means of measurement deemed important to the E3) to help you determine whether you're succeeding in being that person?
this does make me think of you, Joy.
Threes - the enneagram ...info from the underground
esp. paragraphs 3 and 4 I guess.
IEI-Fe 4w3
E3's primary focus is to create a self-image. That can mean trying to look attractive, trying to become 'successful', or being the best at whatever they do.
3w2 often aim at trying to be role-models that everyone looks up to, knows, and loves. They are generally more friendly and outgoing. I find that most 3 descriptions lean toward 3w2.
3w4 tend to focus more on competing with themselves and trying to distinguish themselves by being best at what they do. Generally more reserved and elitist.
E3's usually use objective measures of success. Wealth, fame, or otherwise. They usually have a feeling of being meant for something bigger.
Unhealthy 3s sometimes adopt a "if I can't be it, fake it" attitude whether they are aware of it or not. 3s are typically very self-conscious, but usually develop an impressively confident facade. Self-consciousness is not impressive.
As a 3, there are definitive points in my life in which I have changed and look back on my old self with some disgust, and I view myself as a work in progress.
As a 3w4, I find that I am torn between trying to become someone better and trying to stay true to myself. A big fear of mine is someone catching me being someone I'm not. Most of this was constantly on my mind in my highschool years. I've found a lot more confidence, stability, and authenticity since then.
Well, I think that pretty much settles it. I'm a 3w4. (Peter's been saying so for years, lol.)
Originally Posted by Joy
yep.
IEI-Fe 4w3
But then again...
I relate more to 8 (or even 7) than 3 here.
Does being powerful and independent make you feel more valuable? Like you purposely make that a part of the image you want to project?
True. I want to be a nerd role model, or the face of nerdiness.
The saddest ESFj
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It's an image I enjoy having of myself, but I don't consciously think about wanting others to see me that way. And independence is far more important to me than power. I do enjoy leadership roles though. This is partially because it's easier to get things accomplished when you're in charge, partially because it makes me feel energized (having things to do, feeling good once they're accomplished, etc.), and partially because I enjoy being seen as competent and a leader.
There's a book called The Power of Awareness by Neville Goddard that talks about how we create our reality through our self-image and assumptions. I do identify with that philosophy.
The easiest way for me to make real changes in my life is to develop a self-image that I like and then focus on it. I end up making choices that reflect those values and, as a result, manifest a corresponding reality through my behavior. Isn't that true of everyone though?
I think you're 3w2 or 2w3. You come across as more overtly helpful and supportive (like numbers) rather than the darker and more self obsessed 3w4.
That drive to be productive, useful, efficient, etc is 2 related, but I believe you have confused it with Te (it is a motivation rather than a way of formatting information).
The end is nigh
I'm DEFINITELY not 2w3, but you make a good point about 3w2. I do try to provide useful information for people. I'm told I even do it to the extent of crossing boundaries by accidentally being tactless or unsympathetic or nosy or pushy.
So yes, I do try to be useful, but I do it in a Te way, since that's my dominant mode of processing information.
I differ dramatically from my ESE boss who is constantly helping people either by doing shit for them (like fixing their car or making them food) or using his social connections to get them what they need.
I don't do stuff for people very often because it breeds dependence. Teach a man to fish, I say. I encourage them to fix their problems themselves and give them the information they need in order to move forward (or at least tell them where to find it) instead of overlooking the problem or just whining about it. Whiners don't last long around me because I'm always offering solutions, and true whiners don't want to hear it because they have no intention of helping themselves.
well 2 disintegrates to 8, so that might be why you relate to being pushy or even domineering at times. I'm not sure disintegrating to 9 works for you. Does it?
The end is nigh
Yes. Disintegration to 9 makes a lot more sense than disintegration to 8. I don't act much like an 8... I just like to believe I have 8 motivations. And I relate to the health levels because I used to be a controlling person.
Disintegration to 9 makes sense because for a couple of years I was way too focused on philosophy and trying to just "be" instead of trying to "do" (and "have") all the time. Focusing on appreciating the present moment for what it is, minimizing the "ego" (that is, my sense of self) in an attempt to find peace, etc. The result? Depression, fatigue, health problems, not focusing enough on work and making money and being production, etc. It didn't work for me, and my condition didn't improve until I starting focusing on pragmatism and, essentially, not being a baby. (I'm one of the few who finds things like "don't be a baby" or "quit being a wimp" or "grow some balls" motivating.)
hmm...
http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=11:11
"People of Enneatype Two are essentially related to other people, and they relate to them from a standpoint of helpfulness. Twos have a built in radar for what the other might need, and they see themselves as the correct person for satisfying that need. This places Twos, even though they are serving others, in a sort of “one up” position with respect to those they are serving. Twos see themselves as being not only strong enough to care for themselves, but able to care for others as well. They want to occupy a central position in the lives of chosen others, and they accomplish this by being “indispensable.” From the standpoint of the Two, it is always others who are needy and dependent, not the Two. In reality, the situation is a bit more complex, as Twos also have needs. They need to be appreciated; they need to be needed; they need to receive a considerable amount of attention and gratitude.
Twos are warm people. They are emotionally demonstrative and are generally comfortable with the physical expression of emotions. They place a very high value on their personal relationships and devote an enormous amount of time and energy to them. They tend to be practical people who thrive in the “hands on” helping professions such as teaching, nursing and counseling. Metaphorically speaking, the Two is not afraid of rolling up the sleeves and getting the hands dirty. Twos are also drawn to the role of parent – specifically what we traditionally think of as the more nurturing, mothering role. This is true whether the Two is male or female, although these qualities will typically be societally reinforced in female Twos and somewhat suppressed in males."
I guess I associate 2's with a more involved and "interfering" personality, whereas 3's seem more self obsessed and independent in a way. On the other hand, 3's are said to more easily detach from their emotions, which seems like something you'd relate to.
Well, I'm confident you have 2 in you somewhere.
The end is nigh
I think people tend to think I'm cold, not warm.
lol well I certainly do not get that impression. You come across as warm, supportive, and enthusiastic on the forum, at least.
Sorry if I'm implicitly questioning ur s type, but honestly I would not describe you as "cold" at all.
The end is nigh
Two's are sort of gross.(Sorry if you're reading this and you're a 2...)
I don't really care if people fix their problems or not... it's their life... but if they want to keep talking about them around me, they should expect to hear me offer solutions. If I'm repeating myself a lot, they can become disheartened and I can become exasperated.
There's one recent exception that I can think of. A very good friend of mine is having marital problems, and I'm one of the only people she feels she can talk to about it right now. Usually I'd try to tell someone in her position to either leave or quit whining and focus on making her marriage better, but in her case I can truly sympathize with her dilemma. There are a lot of good reasons to stay. And one very good one to leave. And she's more of a "let's play it by ear and see how it turns out" type. She's not one to MAKE things happen (at least not consciously), like I am. She's one to see how things are going and make decisions accordingly. And I respect that. She'll come to her own decision in her own time, and I don't want her to rush it because I don't want her to look back and wonder if she made the right decision.
Thank you. (: I do try to be warm, and I definitely want the best for everyone. I'm just not willing to make much (if any) of a personal investment in it. And I care far more about being competent than being warm or well-liked.
Are 2's the codependent type?
2s try to breed dependency in other people so they feel loved. Michael (Steve Carrell) from the Office is a 2w3. One of my favorite quotes from him: "I don't want people to kiss my ass to further their career, I want them to kiss my ass because they like me!"
The saddest ESFj
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Well, this is partially true. Three's need to feel they are accomplishing something great and meaningful. Attention isn't always necessary, but they will feel like they are nobody and have no value if they aren't successful.Threes want success not so much for the things that success will buy (like Sevens), or for the power and feeling of independence that it will bring (like Eights). They want success because they are afraid of disappearing into a chasm of emptiness and worthlessness: without the increased attention and feeling of accomplishment which success usually brings, Threes fear that they are nobody and have no value.
Being productive, useful, and efficient isn't connected to 2. I don't know where you got that. Being a 2 is about being altruistic which may involve those things, but that is highly individualized.
I find it extremely unlikely for a 3w2 to confuse themselves as an 8. 3w2s want to be directly involved with others and impress others. 8s are nearly the opposite in that they see themselves as entirely independent and see little to no need to be involved with others, especially impress them.
3w4 are typically torn between wanting to look impressive while not being too 'showy.' They don't want to come off as trying to impress others in a direct way like the 3w2 does, and it may be closer to say that 3w4s want to impress themselves more than others. They are similar to 8s in that they tend to feel separate or even better than others. 8s however, don't feel the need to impress themselves.
Personally, I like the idea of being an 8 and tend to act as such, but I'm not naturally that way. No matter how much I like to think of myself as someone who doesn't care about what others think, I can't help but stop myself from acting like a dick to put myself above others. I can't act in way that would make others view me as a complete asshole. Being a 3 means being overly aware of how you come across to others. Being an 8 means you often neglect how you come off.
<3
I most definitely do need to impress myself!
What's the 3-5-9 in your sig about?
Thank you. In that case, I'm definitely not a 2.
What do you think... Micheal Scott, LSE? I definitely see the Ni PoLR.
As someone with unconscious Fe would.
I do try to avoid rubbing others the wrong way, though not always successfully. It's an area I feel I should give attention to, but it's for the sake of efficiency and effectiveness (especially effectiveness), not at the expense of it.
I find that I like to think that I don't care about what others think, but ther have been a few times in the past (I'm ashamed to recall) that I've tended to do very well when others have given me positive reinforcement but lose motivation to do well when I'm being criticized. I know that this is just basic human nature, but it still bothers me that I didn't always make more productive use of criticism. I should use criticism and negative feedback to grow and develop instead of allowing it to stunt my growth. No one can allow me to feel demoralized without my permission, right?
I like your avatar, electric sheep.
Erm...
I see myself as 5-like as a weakness, but I'm not as bad about it as true 5's are. And as I've already said, thinking like a 9 leads to ennui and failing at life.
I thought I was 5 and thought the same thing. I felt as though being 5 was totally detrimental and was something I needed to correct, which after learning more about the enneagram I realized was very 3-like. It was really eye opening.
Yeah, I agree. Regardless, I see it as part of the way I am. I see it as beneficial in some circumstance because I'm not as uptight as 8fixs and 1fixs can be. I like to think it gives me more of a chance to approach things calmly and rationally.And as I've already said, thinking like a 9 leads to ennui and failing at life.
I question my 9fix still, but a lot of good info and some help have me pretty convinced.
I guess I don't know enough about the system to comment.The descriptions of 8 are definitely more appealing to me than than descriptions of any other type, though I have always acknowledged that I look like a 3 (and now probably am). The types I've thought it weak to be were 4 and 5. The types I've thought it downright disgusting to be were 2 and 6 (though I'm most attracted to 6's when it's someone else's type!). The types I've thought it boring to be were 1's and 9's (talk about plain). 7's aren't so bad, though I only somewhat relate.
I was also thinking that 3's are sort of the anti-Fi. Those with an EJ temperament and very weak and/or unvalued (and/or unconscious) Fi would fit best into that type.
Also, 2's are VERY (disgustingly, from my perspective) caregiver-like. A 2w3 or 2w1 would be a logical enneatype for ESj's.
2w3 is the more outgoing attention grabber, while 2w1 is more proper and restrained. Helping people can mean more than just providing Si related creature comforts. Making sure someone has everything they need could mean anything. In a way, 2s subtlety try to gain power over people, and that is something that falls within the realm of the ENjs. I always thought Michael was ENTj (before I knew he was a 2). Even though 2s are known as caregivers in the Enneagram, that doesn't mean the same thing as what it means to be a caregiver in socionics. The kind of help an ENTj 2w3 has to offer would differ significantly from the kind of help an ESFj 2w3 would give. But they would both be doing it for the same reason--because they want to be loved. Think of it as an ENTj ensuring that they have good Fi with someone, but they can never really be sure, so they act overbearing and keep on helping. (or something along those lines)
The saddest ESFj
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I don't mean "anti" as "against", but rather "positioned opposite of". Those with the weakest (or most ignored) Fi, as well as valued Se and an EJ temperament, are most likely to be 3's. So basically what you said, ENj's, though for somewhat different reasons.
I see Fi as the "self-awareness" function. Ti to a somewhat lesser extent. Those who rely on external verification are likely to have weak and/or unvalued Ti and Fi.
I guess in the case of EIE's, they're relying on Ti instead of Fi because they value it more.
In the case of LIE's, they're relying on Ti instead of Fi because it's stronger.
I remember going to a business seminar with a ENTj 2w3 as the speaker. Also I think the president of my local Toastmasters is the same type combination.
The saddest ESFj
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I didn't even know enneagram had caregivers.
Micheal Scott has repeatedly shown a Ni PoLR. It became painful to watch the show. (I had to put forth a great deal of effort to be able to refrain from watching it because Peter insisted that I should keep watching it even though I hated it. He didn't think my reasons were valid since it always made me laugh. He didn't understand why I said the show was extremely frustrating and depressing and thought I was exhibiting some sort of neurosis that I needed to overcome. I told him that it was the same as my dislike of green olives. I just simply don't like it and shouldn't need to have an explanation. We "discussed" the psychology and biology associated with disliking specific foods several times as a result. Anyways, I don't watch it anymore.) I've never seen weak Si from him though, much less a Si PoLR. And I saw four friggin seasons of the show (even though I hated it from the beginning.
You're in Toastmasters? Awwww. (:
I will pay you 10 dollars if you introduce him to me.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
Who pays for the flight?
Anyways, I don't know if you're looking for someone to hook up with or if you just wanted to say in a roundabout way that his typings are subjective...
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