Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 190

Thread: Post-Lacanian Feminism

  1. #1
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Post-Lacanian Feminism

    Is it thoroughly unsurprising to anyone else that feminists attempting to engage in a dialectical critique of Lacan's supposedly sexist theories fail utterly, both in theory and in practice of promoting their ideals, purely because the medium in which they engage his philosophy is inherently biased towards a male perspective? Trying to disprove and devalue a male-centric philosophy by means of dialectics is like trying to beat a spider at a web spinning contest. I may violate my contract of interest with every human male in our race by revealing this, but the simple truth is, women will have to reinvent the playing field socially, economically, and psychologically, if they are to stand a chance at gaining true "equality." And how is this done? By bitching at men about how unfair things are and making yourselves out to be some contemptable harpy? No. If you want to be in the game, shut your mouth and play.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  2. #2
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    haha... lovely. I remember Nietzsche talking about something similar, basically saying that inequality was the most natural social hierarchy, and it was only through complaints about a lack of equality – which was assumed to be a basic tenet of a "good society" – that people could promote petty doctrines for their own malicious purposes.

    As for feminism, I've come to find it as nothing more than a hypocritical, reactionary movement veiled under liberal goals and social concern. I'm happy to expound on this, but not at this moment. Anyway, the thing to consider is: there is no innate difference between strippers and feminists; one is just more honest than the other, and compelled to use a less palatable medium to drive their point home because of societal conditions. Also consider: you are not promoting anything new by reacting to a perceived injustice; at best, you're putting it back into place, or slightly refining it.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  3. #3
    <something> Wynch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    On a Hill
    TIM
    ILE
    Posts
    3,910
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ugh, I don't even know where to start on this.
    ILE
    7w8 so/sp

    Very busy with work. Only kind of around.

  4. #4
    Blaze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    5,725
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Ugh, I don't even know where to start on this.
    word.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

  5. #5
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    TIM
    Introvert sp/sx
    Posts
    7,739
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Is it thoroughly unsurprising to anyone else that feminists attempting to engage in a dialectical critique of Lacan's supposedly sexist theories fail utterly, both in theory and in practice of promoting their ideals, purely because the medium in which they engage his philosophy is inherently biased towards a male perspective? Trying to disprove and devalue a male-centric philosophy by means of dialectics is like trying to beat a spider at a web spinning contest. I may violate my contract of interest with every human male in our race by revealing this, but the simple truth is, women will have to reinvent the playing field socially, economically, and psychologically, if they are to stand a chance at gaining true "equality." And how is this done? By bitching at men about how unfair things are and making yourselves out to be some contemptable harpy? No. If you want to be in the game, shut your mouth and play.
    Ok, so I don't know shit about Lacan. Really I don't. BA Philosophy fail.

    But what about dialectics is masculine? The bolded seems off too. That kind of us vs them solidarity is weird to me.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

  6. #6
    Kim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    TIM
    IEE e7 783 sx so
    Posts
    6,857
    Mentioned
    380 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Ok, so I don't know shit about Lacan. Really I don't. BA Philosophy fail.
    No worries: Lacanian psychoanalysis is on its way out.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

  7. #7
    Brentano's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Plas Penrhyn in Penrhyndeudraeth, Merionethshire, Wales
    Posts
    98
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Women should suck my cock and iron my shirts.

  8. #8
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by incognito View Post
    Yeah, I know what you mean. Fuck equality. I want a man who serves me. A guy who works hard all day, earns more pay than me (and hands me his paycheck), comes home and cooks for me, cleans my clothes, brings me breakfast in bed, cowers when I address him, and politely addresses me ALWAYS with, 'Yes, Dear'.
    You don't know how perfect you are.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  9. #9
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Ugh, I don't even know where to start on this.
    And if you did, you would only confirm my hypothesis.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  10. #10
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    But what about dialectics is masculine? The bolded seems off too. That kind of us vs them solidarity is weird to me.
    Well I'm not saying that there SHOULD be an us vs. them "solidarity," but it is in the collective interests of men, in concrete terms, to remain in control, so by being so overtly open in telling women why they must change their strategy, I am undermining the interests of men as a collective, which exists whether or not we want it to.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  11. #11
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    No worries: Lacanian psychoanalysis is on its way out.
    Undeniable, but it will never be forgotten utterly, especially as long as women's rights philosophy give it's brand of attitudes credence by reacting to them so directly.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  12. #12
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    Women should suck my cock and iron my shirts.
    Hey, if that's the best they can do, and they get something they deem as worthy in exchange, why shouldn't she? Assuming you're stupid enough to marry a whore, why shouldn't she milk you for all you're worth?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Is it thoroughly unsurprising to anyone else that feminists attempting to engage in a dialectical critique of Lacan's supposedly sexist theories fail utterly, both in theory and in practice of promoting their ideals, purely because the medium in which they engage his philosophy is inherently biased towards a male perspective? Trying to disprove and devalue a male-centric philosophy by means of dialectics is like trying to beat a spider at a web spinning contest. I may violate my contract of interest with every human male in our race by revealing this, but the simple truth is, women will have to reinvent the playing field socially, economically, and psychologically, if they are to stand a chance at gaining true "equality." And how is this done? By bitching at men about how unfair things are and making yourselves out to be some contemptable harpy? No. If you want to be in the game, shut your mouth and play.
    What I don't get about feminists is why they can't seem to make up their minds about what they want.

    Do they want stereotypical "woman things" to stop having negative connotations, or do they want it to be more socially acceptable for women to behave and dress like men?

    If it's the former, then they want to continue to be "girlie" without being seen as weak/fair/delicate. If it's the latter, they admit that traditional femininity is not very enabling, and they want to be able to disassociate themselves from it.

    I don't think both goals are compatible with one another.
    Last edited by discojoe; 12-06-2009 at 12:14 AM.

  14. #14
    Brentano's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Plas Penrhyn in Penrhyndeudraeth, Merionethshire, Wales
    Posts
    98
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by incognito View Post
    Yeah, I know what you mean. Fuck equality. I want a man who serves me. A guy who works hard all day, earns more pay than me (and hands me his paycheck), comes home and cooks for me, cleans my clothes, brings me breakfast in bed, cowers when I address him, and politely addresses me ALWAYS with, 'Yes, Dear'.
    Men already work much harder than women. Women should at least pick up some of the slack by sucking my cocks.

  15. #15
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,945
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    haha... lovely. I remember Nietzsche talking about something similar, basically saying that inequality was the most natural social hierarchy, and it was only through complaints about a lack of equality – which was assumed to be a basic tenet of a "good society" – that people could promote petty doctrines for their own malicious purposes.
    Isn't it obvious that 'inequality' is the most natural social hierarchy, especially considering that things in a hierarchy cannot be equal?
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

  16. #16
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Do they want stereotypical "woman things" to stop having negative connotations, or do they want it to be more socially acceptable for women to behave and dress like men?

    If it's the former, then they want to continue to be "girlie" without being seen as weak/fair/delicate. If it's the latter, they admit that traditional femininity is not very enabling, and they want to be able to disassociate themselves from it.

    I don't think both goals are compatible with one another.
    And this is why a woman like Ayn Rand is admirable to me, from a feminist standpoint: she takes a clear stand as being committed to engaging in the typical "male" world; most "feminists" want to be treated like perfect dolls, to be preened and decorated but never tested; just taught to repress and strive for material success.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  17. #17
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Ugh, I don't even know where to start on this.
    Anywhere you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    Isn't it obvious that 'inequality' is the most natural social hierarchy, especially considering that things in a hierarchy cannot be equal?
    Of course. Which is why attempts by women to abolish the natural hierarchy as a means to (arbitrarily) level out the playing field are foolish.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  18. #18
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,945
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Of course. Which is why attempts by women to abolish the natural hierarchy as a means to (arbitrarily) level out the playing field are foolish.
    You said that "I remember Nietzsche talking about something similar, basically saying that inequality was the most natural social hierarchy"

    You didn't say that hierarchy itself was natural.

    Anyhow, it's my view that just because something is natural doesn't mean that it should be desirable.

  19. #19
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    You said that "I remember Nietzsche talking about something similar, basically saying that inequality was the most natural social hierarchy"

    You didn't say that hierarchy itself was natural.
    Yeah, I didn't make the implication specifically clear in the initial post, but it is in his writing:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Antichrist
    The -order of castes-, the highest, the dominating law, is merely the ratification of an -order of nature-, of a natural law of the first rank, over which no arbitrary fiat, no "modern idea," can exert any influence.
    Anyhow, it's my view that just because something is natural doesn't mean that it should be desirable.
    It's not as simple as natural things being desirable. "Natural" in this sense refers more to consistent patterns of human interaction manifesting throughout evolution, which have become preferable by virtue of their effectiveness.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  20. #20
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,945
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    It's not as simple as natural things being desirable. "Natural" in this sense refers more to consistent patterns of human interaction manifesting throughout evolution, which have become preferable by virtue of their effectiveness.
    All people who have ever had consciousness including Nietzsche have of course had their own position on what exactly is effective, and so presumably also held their own positions on what is "natural".
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

  21. #21
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    All people who have ever had consciousness including Nietzsche have of course had their own position on what exactly is effective, and so presumably also held their own positions on what is "natural".
    He didn't imply that the natural order existed because it was effective.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  22. #22
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,945
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    He didn't imply that the natural order existed because it was effective.
    Well the natural order exists because it is inherited from a previous state of affairs which is in effective in the sense that it still exists - but I don't see why it is therefore necessarily foolish to consciously change the "natural order".

  23. #23
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    Well the natural order exists because it is inherited from a previous state of affairs which is effective in the sense that it still exists - but I don't see why it is therefore necessarily foolish to consciously change the "natural order".
    This was more or less his point lol. The "natural order" isn't an isolated thing; it is evidenced through the most effective evolutionary strategies that come into existence without being fueled by the human will (i.e. if women naturally occupy a specific position within a hierarchy, their attempts to undermine the entire hierarchy to reestablish said thing, is ideologically flawed).
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  24. #24
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,945
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    This was more or less his point lol. The "natural order" isn't an isolated thing; it is evidenced through the most effective evolutionary strategies that come into existence without being fueled by the human will (i.e. if women naturally occupy a specific position within a hierarchy, their attempts to undermine the entire hierarchy to reestablish said thing, is ideologically flawed).
    It seems to me you are supposing that humans are not able to be indepedent of evolutionary concerns.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

  25. #25
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    It seems to me you are supposing that humans are not able to be indepedent of evolutionary concerns.
    And how would you justify supposing that we are independent of "evolutionary concerns"? -- (whose magnitude I don't think you are fully grasping, if you are implying a sense of triviality or limitation in their scope).

    Or are you one of those religious people?
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  26. #26
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,945
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    And how would you justify supposing that we are independent of "evolutionary concerns"? -- (whose magnitude I don't think you are fully grasping, if you are implying a sense of triviality or limitation in their scope).

    Or are you one of those religious people?
    I don't need to justify supposing that we are independent of evolutionary concerns - it's just that I thought Nietzsche believed this.

    But I do believe that humans can act contrary to what is in their evolutionary interest...for example, by making a conscious choice not to breed. However, this is contentious because it could be argued that every decision we make is due to our genes and environmental pressures.

  27. #27
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    I don't need to justify supposing that we are independent of evolutionary concerns - it's just that I thought Nietzsche believed this.
    Why would someone who espoused the idea of a naturally embedded order believe that we are independent of evolutionary concerns?

    But I do believe that humans can act contrary to what is in their evolutionary interest...for example, by making a conscious choice not to breed. However, this is contentious because it could be argued that every decision we make is due to our genes and environmental pressures.
    Of course people can do that. Another aspect that should be considered, is whether people believe they are impinging their evolutionary success by taking certain actions (i.e. how certain individuals in poverty resort to criminal acts, in order to survive, ergo risk survival for survival).
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  28. #28
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,945
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Why would someone who espoused the idea of a naturally embedded order believe that we are independent of evolutionary concerns?
    Just because someone thinks a way of being is naturally embedded does not mean that they believe that individuals who follow that way of being are unable to act independently of that natural order.

  29. #29
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    Just because someone thinks a way of being is naturally embedded does not mean that they believe that individuals who follow that way of being are unable to act independently of that natural order.
    Obviously not – otherwise, there would be no opposing evolutionary strategy to criticize.

    Which is why Nietzsche went on to say:

    …Wrong never lies in unequal rights; it lies in the assertion of "equal" rights…
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  30. #30
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    TIM
    Introvert sp/sx
    Posts
    7,739
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    *punches Nietzsche in the dick, evolutionary style*
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

  31. #31
    Kim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    TIM
    IEE e7 783 sx so
    Posts
    6,857
    Mentioned
    380 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    …Wrong never lies in unequal rights; it lies in the assertion of "equal" rights…
    Yeah, goddammit, whoever let the broads vote and the negroes into my public bathroom!?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

  32. #32
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Yeah, goddammit, whoever let the broads vote and the negroes into my public bathroom!?
    Way to mistakenly assume what he was implying. The social castes that banished negroes from the voting booths and water fountains are not at all similar to the natural social hierarchy he depicted.

    Ironically enough, it's that exact type of straw-man assumption that largely in part fuels things like feminists' complaints. It hinges on assuming there's some flawed social order that must be done away with, of course in the name of an *improved* order. Whatever.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  33. #33
    Kim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    TIM
    IEE e7 783 sx so
    Posts
    6,857
    Mentioned
    380 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Way to mistakenly assume what he was implying. The social castes that banished negroes from the voting booths and water fountains are not at all similar to the natural social hierarchy he depicted.

    Ironically enough, it's that exact type of straw-man assumption that largely in part fuels things like feminists complaints. It hinges on assuming there's some flawed social order that must be done away with, of course in the name of an *improved* order. Whatever.
    I don't care if me being paid less than men and many more disadvantages are the result of a natural order or not. I don't like it and I don't want it, so I will complain about it and be mildly amused by threads about EVIL EVIL STUPID feminists who are after your dicks.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

  34. #34
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,945
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Obviously not – otherwise, there would be no opposing evolutionary strategy to criticize.

    Which is why Nietzsche went on to say:
    …Wrong never lies in unequal rights; it lies in the assertion of "equal" rights…
    That presupposes that the rights of an individual must be determined by the natural state of affairs. Someone could alternatively say that because they are able to state that "there should be equal rights", then that is the way things should be, as nature merely asserts itself and has no teeth.

  35. #35
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I don't care if me being paid less than men and many more disadvantages are the result of a natural order or not. I don't like it and I don't want it, so I will complain about it and be mildly amused by threads about EVIL EVIL STUPID feminists who are after your dicks.
    Did I (or Nietzsche) imply that gender-specific pay was a result of a natural order? No, so don't imply as much.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  36. #36
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    That presupposes that the rights of an individual must be determined by the natural state of affairs. Someone could alternatively say that because they are able to state that "there should be equal rights", then that is the way things should be, as nature merely asserts itself and has no teeth.
    It's not about deterministic necessity; it's about the optimal state of working conditions that naturally arises, presumably through volitional actions derived from respective abilities. Arbitrarily saying "there should be equal rights" is a deliberate subversion (in Nietzsche's context), because it presupposes the right to supersede collective functionality with individual desires.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  37. #37
    Kim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    TIM
    IEE e7 783 sx so
    Posts
    6,857
    Mentioned
    380 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Did I (or Nietzsche) imply that gender-specific pay was a result of a natural order? No, so don't imply as much.
    So why did you bring him up in the first place if there is no connection to the topic at hand?

    haha... lovely. I remember Nietzsche talking about something similar, basically saying that inequality was the most natural social hierarchy, and it was only through complaints about a lack of equality – which was assumed to be a basic tenet of a "good society" – that people could promote petty doctrines for their own malicious purposes.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

  38. #38
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,945
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    It's not about deterministic necessity; it's about the optimal state of working conditions that naturally arises, presumably through volitional actions derived from respective abilities. Arbitrarily saying "there should be equal rights" is a deliberate subversion (in Nietzsche's context), because it presupposes the right to supersede collective functionality with individual desires.
    So Nietzsche himself is wrong, as even saying "there should be unequal rights" is arbitrary - he thinks that rights should be appropiate to each and every subset of individuals, and so the rights are neither equal or unequal.

  39. #39
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    So why did you bring him up in the first place if there is no connection to the topic at hand?
    Gender-specific pay has no direct relation to the topic, which is feminism, social order, etc. Nietzsche's comments are relevant insofar as they pertain to natural human tendencies and motivations, which are things that definitely underpin the -topic at hand-
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  40. #40
    Kim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    TIM
    IEE e7 783 sx so
    Posts
    6,857
    Mentioned
    380 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Gender-specific pay has no direct relation to the topic, which is feminism, social order, etc. Nietzsche's comments are relevant insofar as they pertain to natural human tendencies and motivations, which are things that definitely underpin the -topic at hand-
    The realities about which feminists complain have nothing to do with the topic? Do I sense a / divide here? :wink:
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •