Conflict relations: ENTp Tom Green vs ISFj

[crazedrat]

lol:

[07490]

lol, that guy is an ISFj? you sure?

[crazedrat]

yeah pretty sure. you can take that interaction and sort of mix it around, and that's the exact interaction I have with my mom constantly. here's another ISFj getting pissed at him:

[Blaze]

i always thought andrew dice clay was an estp.

but now i think you're on to something crazedrat. that behavior is exactly MALE isfj. for sure.

[07490]

i always thought andrew dice clay was an estp.

Honestly, I thought he was an ESTp based on that video. I don't know anything about him before that.

I would type the guy Tom Green is messing around with in the second video as ESTj.

[Blaze]

Honestly, I thought he was an ESTp based on that video. I don't know anything about him before that.

I would type the guy Tom Green is messing around with in the second video as ESTj.

the interaction goes nowhere though. exactly like conflict relations. they both just keep saying the same things over and over. plus dice clay gets tom green on the Fi...the whole thing about when green touched his arm. dice clay takes this as some kind of boundary affront...estp wouldn't do this. estp wouldn't cause so much friction or need to try to "win" against green.

i've seen this type of behaviors with male ESI's...they are much more forceful than female ESI's. and that ethical maneuver, playing like some kind of victim, is exactly what ESI does. *shudder*

[redbaron]

it's hilarious. And Tom Green just tries so hard but gets nowhere. It totally made me laugh.

[tereg]

Andrew Dice Clay as an ISFj.

wat

seriously?



try again

[Galen]

They're both dicks

[Jarno]

Andrew Dice Clay as an ISFj.

wat

seriously?



try again

ISFJ is reasonable.

[Jarno]

Honestly, I thought he was an ESTp based on that video. I don't know anything about him before that.

yep, he is PRETENDING to be an ESTP. But's he isn't a real one...

[crazedrat]

not even pretending. that's the aggressive side of gamma. he actually reminds me of allie in many ways

[Jarno]

not even pretending. that's the aggressive side of gamma. he actually reminds me of allie in many ways

ah oke, I'm not familiar with that side of ISFJ's, so I thought he's just faking to be a though guy, you know, like having a mask or persona.

allie is a bitch, I think she has even forgotten how to be nice. But that's just my personal opinion :-)

[Blaze]

yep, he is PRETENDING to be an ESTP. But's he isn't a real one...

he's trying to act like an estp, what with all the fuck this and fuck that, but it's like a characiture; it's his pony show. it's almost like he's making fun of estp's by acting like an extreme version of one. but underneath he's isfj, esp the way he interacts with tom green.

[Galen]

I would have guessed ENTj for Clay. He looks a lot like Ashton to me haha.

[Jarno]

he's trying to act like an estp, what with all the fuck this and fuck that, but it's like a characiture; it's his pony show. it's almost like he's making fun of estp's by acting like an extreme version of one. but underneath he's isfj, esp the way he interacts with tom green.

yep.

[717495]

Andrew Dice Clay how he comes across is SLE. Irrationality is apparent, and Beta. Gamma doesn't manifest this way. So unless he's putting on a major facade, but I doubt it. They don't seem to get along, but then many people don't like ILEs, and Beta can be overly aggressive and hostile. It's not really a relational problem as I see it, though I can see how a lot of you Fe valuers might see it as a relational problem.

[717495]

yeah pretty sure. you can take that interaction and sort of mix it around, and that's the exact interaction I have with my mom constantly. here's another ISFj getting pissed at him:
YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

Who the hell are you!?
I'm myself!

lmao. Stumped him.

Geezer in the video is LSI? (and a shame to LSIs.) Supervision always wins.

[crazedrat]

no. don't spread your confusion.

[717495]

Can I call you Ms. Type, or do you prefer maddam?

[crazedrat]

you are big and fat.

[Gilly]

Can I call you Ms. Type, or do you prefer maddam?

Jesus christ, how are you not an Alpha?

[Gilly]

This thread makes me sad. People have such totally off-base views of what SLEs are like. That guy is insanely Gamma: no regard for Fe whatsoever, no Aristocratic composure in sight. He even VIs as IJ. Exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from Christopher Hitchens, a blatant ESI-Se.

Compare:

[717495]

I doubt this guy represents anything "Fi dominant." His whole persona is completely irrational and with disregard to what Fi is.

Jesus christ, how are you not an Alpha?

It's pretty easy not to be an Alpha. Why should I be one? Would it make you feel better in your perception of how they're supposed to be?

[Gilly]

I doubt this guy represents anything "Fi dominant." His whole persona is completely irrational and with disregard to what Fi is.

Oh? And what do you think "Fi is?"

It's pretty easy not to be an Alpha. Why should I be one? Would it make you feel better in your perception of how they're supposed to be?

No, but it would be correct.

[717495]

No, but it would be correct.

It is false. Probably due to a couple of factors, those likely being that you don't know me very well, but have weak impressions about me that you've been sorting through, and because your Socionics understanding seems to differ from the classical writing. But the second part is not at all mysterious. I think many people who don't know me very well or have a questionable understanding of Socionics, typically how they come around this forum, might think I'm an ILE. This is not an absurd suggestion for a limited internet impression.

[JuJu]

lol, that guy is an ISFj? you sure?

LOL, well-put..! Dice is Se leading.

This is an ESI (Jim Nance


This is another ESI (Troy Aikman


This is another ESI (Lester Holt

[07490]

Thanks for letting me know that I'm not crazy, Juju.

[JuJu]

Thanks for letting me know that I'm not crazy.

Currently, many people are typing off of erroneous benchmarks... There's a lot of confusion in the English-speaking Socionics community b/c of this.

Don't blame Gilly... There is NO accurate Socionics benchmark photo gallery yet... (I'd like to put one up, but I don't know anything about web-programming... If anyone does know anything about web-programming, and is interested, please contact me... In PMs, the subject has come up, but I'd like to see some action...)

Socionix' benchmark galleries--currently the most extensive--have A LOT of errors. (ESI--the type suggested for Andrew Dice Cla here--is almost totally incorrect.)

The bottom line is that many people type off of benchmarks--and when the benchmarks are wrong--it's likely that one comes up with the wrong type, as here.



The most accurate way I've found of typing people is difficult and time-consuming to learn... It entails learning what expressed manifestations of the IM elements look like... (Currently, there are very few people in the English-speaking Socionics community who are able to do this accurately.) For those who haven't yet put in that sort of time, benchmarks work well... But only if you have the right benchmarks.

[07490]

Currently, many people are typing off of erroneous benchmarks... There's a lot of confusion b/c of this.

Don't blame Gilly... There is NO accurate Socionics benchmark gallery yet... (I'd like to put one up, but I don't know anything about web-programming... If anyone does know anything aboutt web-programming, and is interested, please contact me... In PMs, the subject has come up, but I'd like to see some action.)

Furthermore, it's difficult to learn what expressed manifestations of the IM elements look like... (It's the final step to becoming an excellent Socionics typist.)

The bottom line is that most people type off of benchmarks--and when the benchmarks are wrong--it's likely that one comes up with the wrong type, as here.

I feel like I was much more confident figuring out Socionics with no outside Influences before I read this forum. The more I read this forum the more confused I am, and Doubts that I have. I am not saying I am always right but this forum can crumble and mislead my understanding of socionics. Which leads me backward, and has definity done more harm than good. After all, I think socionic isn't really that hard if you don't over analyst it.

[Blaze]

people gender is huge. huge huge in type expression. so huge, in fact, that there are separate male and female type descriptions. somebody took substantial time and effort to get that done...why? because they felt it was incredibly important.

when we think of Fi (or Fe for that matter) i bet a female image comes to mind, since there is greater social expectation that women should be ethically oriented. whether real women actually are ethically oriented is beside the point; obviously there are many logically oriented women who live under this social expectation every day. when we think of Fi, i am quite sure we are prone to think about how women express ethics, as if that is the only way to do so.

males who are ethical live under the social expectation that men should be logical, as all men do. or that men should be tough. that men should be leaders. so, consequently, men who are ethical are going to express their ethics differently than females would. they're going to give ethics a "male spin" so to speak.

what we see here with andrew dice clay (ADC hereforth), is precisely that. it is easy to interpret his behavior if we assume he is Fi leading. Fi leading would pick up on feelings of attraction and repulsion immediately, since it's in the leading position. ok so tom green touches ADC on the arm. ADC doesn't like tom green. he thinks "can't tom green see that i don't like him and he doesn't like me? why would somebody touch somebody who they don't like except to pick a fight with them? to express dislike?" so he fucks with tom green about it. he does it using Se, extraverted function. since ADC is an introvert, his primary mode of extraversion is Se. plus he's male. plus he's trying to act like his SLE persona...so he uses Se.

do you notice how the green thing with pins stuck in it goes absolutely nowhere? it's because ADC is Ne polr. he has no use for such alpha chicanery. he doesn't get it. (i can picture many guests who would love that green pin thing...and many conditions where this would be humorous).

he really surprises tom green, who intends no offense. and tom green is completely rattled. tom green tries repeatedly to reassure ADC, since he can see that ADC is offended. but it goes nowhere. well not hard to understand. with Fi polr, tom green has no idea that ADC doesn't like him or that he doesn't like ADC. tom green simply can't feel the relational vibes unless ADC spells it out in that nasty forceful way he does.

having said all this, i am here to re-state that i know several ESI males IRL who use FiSe in this dramatic forceful kind of way, minus the SLE mockery. i have not seen ESI women do this. not saying it can't happen (somebody mentions Allie here) but i just haven't seen it.

finally, again. this is CLASSIC ILE-ESI CONFLICT RELATION.

finally, i agree with gilly: SLE would be nothing like that. since SLE also has Fi polr. and, further, that parody that ADC is doing of SLE is based on stereotype, a stereotype that some find funny, but that ultimately is deeply offensive. not a big surprise since ADC is the supervisor of SLE.

[07490]

uh oh here comes blaze.

[07490]

what we see here with andrew dice clay (ADC hereforth), is precisely that. it is easy to interpret his behavior if we assume he is Fi leading. Fi leading would pick up on feelings of attraction and repulsion immediately, since it's in the leading position. ok so tom green touches ADC on the arm. ADC doesn't like tom green. he thinks "can't tom green see that i don't like him and he doesn't like me? why would somebody touch somebody who they don't like except to pick a fight with them? to express dislike?" so he fucks with tom green about it. he does it using Se, extraverted function. since ADC is an introvert, his primary mode of extraversion is Se. plus he's male. plus he's trying to act like his SLE persona...so he uses Se.

But every type can think like that come on, its not just FI leading type, I would have done the same as well. If anything I would put that as Beta's Se but so than Gamma's Se.

do you notice how the green thing with pins stuck in it goes absolutely nowhere? it's because ADC is Ne polr. he has no use for such alpha chicanery. he doesn't get it. (i can picture many guests who would love that green pin thing...and many conditions where this would be humorous).

I think you're over anlaysing a simple situation to claim that he is a Ne polr.

he really surprises tom green, who intends no offense. and tom green is completely rattled. tom green tries repeatedly to reassure ADC, since he can see that ADC is offended. but it goes nowhere. well not hard to understand. with Fi polr, tom green has no idea that ADC doesn't like him or that he doesn't like ADC. tom green simply can't feel the relational vibes unless ADC spells it out in that nasty forceful way he does.

I feel like you are using information element up and matching it with reality here...
I think Information element is a good way to indicate a type but not when you put every situation and categorized it by IE. A simply "you are so nice", is what Fi, Fe, even Si? you can't type things like that by IE.

finally, again. this is CLASSIC ILE-ESI CONFLICT RELATION.

Not at all would a conflicting relationship conflict like that.

[Blaze]

[Blaze]

This sounds like you have the notion that he is an ESI, then you explain every action he did fittingly to and ESI and their information element.

a "notion"? i see what i see. i don't see how it's anything other than that. how else is there to analyze an interaction than by looking at what takes place and making an estimation?

which I can do so with every type.

bring it then. why not?

[JuJu]

It's good that Blaze substantiated the opinion. (I really appreciate it in fact... It means we can go through the thought-process and figure out where each other's coming from.)

I agree with many things Blaze said in it; however, I don't agree with the conclusion drawn.

For example, I agree with the notion that---in society (mine, anyway)--men = logical and women = ethical. I agree that males and females often express ethics (and logic) differently.

I agree that Andrew Dice Clay responds to Tom Green with Se.

My question--based on my point of disagreement--is: Why do you attribute Andrew Dice Clay's behavior to Fi leading..?

[redbaron]

finally, i agree with gilly: SLE would be nothing like that. since SLE also has Fi polr. and, further, that parody that ADC is doing of SLE is based on stereotype, a stereotype that some find funny, but that ultimately is deeply offensive. not a big surprise since ADC is the supervisor of SLE.

I agree.

[JuJu]

All of these quotes convey Se:


"I don't like people fuckin' with me. I do the fuckin'. "

"Bang my head through my fuckin' shoes. Teach me a fuckin' lesson."

"What happened? Your mother didn't jerk you off in the bathroom enough times? You fuckin' zero!"

"I don't care if you hit me... Don't fuckin' lie to me."

"You got a little bit out of line."


Re: comedy

These two are playing this interview for laughs... I don't believe that this is a serious disagreement, indicative of any inter-quadra disagreement... I'm not sold on the Tom Green = ENTp typing, tbh. I don't know enough about him to say.


Conclusion re: Andrew Dice Clay's type... I don't believe there's a chance in hell he's anything other than Se-leading... He's very ostentatiously displaying Se throughout the video... He dominates the discussion with his Se. It's his "zone" and he's in it, (like many leading element subtypes.)

Based on what I saw I could see typings in support of only Se-ESFp and Se-ESTp.

I can see an argument being made for Gamma--but only Se-ESFp, e.g. Tommy Heinsohn or Bill Parcells, or Diamond David Lee Roth. Just as I can see the argument for Beta--but only Se-ESTp, e.g. Mike Tyson, Colin Farrell, etc.

Se creatives--ISTjs and ISFjs--do not display Se so continuously and vehemently... (Even ones' whose "act" it is to display aggression, e.g. Sam Kinison, Se-ISTj.)

[Gilly]

It is false. Probably due to a couple of factors, those likely being that you don't know me very well, but have weak impressions about me that you've been sorting through, and because your Socionics understanding seems to differ from the classical writing. But the second part is not at all mysterious. I think many people who don't know me very well or have a questionable understanding of Socionics, typically how they come around this forum, might think I'm an ILE. This is not an absurd suggestion for a limited internet impression.

Hey, wanna answer my actual question so I can derive great pleasure from mocking you?

Please?

[Gilly]

Clay could be SEE, I suppose, but certainly never SLE. Personally I think he seems rational.