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Thread: What to say to: Socionics beginners

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    JuJu's Avatar
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    Default What to say to: Socionics beginners

    In lecturing on Socionics, I'm noticing that beginners--i.e. people who've never heard of Socionics, but are interested in learning more--have very different questions than we usually ponder here at this forum.


    I'm wondering: when you were a beginner--or if you are a beginner now, change this sentence to the present tense--what were your questions about Socionics..?

    What really interested you about it..?

    Was there anything about Socionics that you wish would've been said to you early, but you ended up learning the hard way..?


    "What type am I?" and "how is this different from Myers-Briggs?" are two questions that are being asked a lot...

    Getting some answers to these questions will help me to--hopefully--get more people interested in Socionics.

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    lol @ the idea of you teaching socionics.
    I'd say generally MBTI is empirical and behavior oriented where socionics has a cognitive and subjective bias. MBTI will help you predict behavior, but socionics will let you understand a person from the way they think up to their motives and desires.
    INTp

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    Definitely: "how is it different from Myers-Briggs?" What would be a short, well-articulated answer to that question?

    It's frustrating to try to teach someone about it because it feels like it takes a long time to digest. And most people want quick answers. They don't want to have to study it. How do you present it in a nutshell without the disclaimer "there's so much more to it than that"?

    One thing that would have been helpful to me early on when trying to type people (and the reason why I originally typed my mother EII rather than IEE) is the realization that just because someone acts introverted a lot of the time, doesn't necessarily make them an IXXx type. Take for example, the ESTp Ti-subtype who spends a fair bit of time observing. Or the ENFp Fi-sub who's unsure of herself in public and comes across shy at first. Even some INFp Fe subs with a lot of energy can seem ENFp, especially if one is looking at the dichotomies rather than the information elements. Or ENFj if the Fe and Ni is still noted. So there's more to it than just deciding if a person gets energy from being around people or if they need time to themselves. That's just not very accurate. Everyone needs time to themselves. etc.

    another thing is the problem of bringing up the intertype relations without seeming like it's some sort of astrology prediction. People can get pretty skeptical if they think you're going to predict how their relationship is going to go based on this theory. And as accurate as we know the descriptions are, it's impossible to convince someone of this accuracy until they experience it for themselves. And it also assumes the types of both parties are accurate. *sigh*

    With my Te PoLR, I generally try to stay away from having to explain this stuff. Although I want to, I'm horrible at it and end up frustrated. I have the urge to cut to the chase with what it all means but if I'm talking to someone who doesn't understand where I got to that conclusion, I have to back up and walk them through the information which isn't a great situation for me.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    It's frustrating to try to teach someone about it because it feels like it takes a long time to digest. And most people want quick answers. They don't want to have to study it. How do you present it in a nutshell without the disclaimer "there's so much more to it than that"?
    Your whole post is great You're absolutely right too -- people want quick answers... I can see their eyes wander and their heads lower if I go on for longer than (what would be a paragraph.)

    Great point about introverted/extraverted, intertype relations--everything... They look at me as though I have five heads when I talk about the ability to predict a relationship's qualities (!!) By the end of the talk though, they're usually very curious--about themselves and their spouse at least.

    THANK YOU.

    re: crazedrat -- honestly, i take it as a compliment when someone who holds such an erroneous conception of Socionics as you attempts to mock mine... (E.g. your oft-repeated "Kurt Cobain is delta.") I like the comment on MBTI though--that's the kind of stuff that will help people to understand Socionics better.

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    JuJu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akra View Post
    Explaining what the shapes mean, and the 3-letter naming system. I was also confused about the lowercase last letter vs. the MBTI naming.
    Thank you I was confused about this stuff as well, I remember.

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    I wish I was introduced to the aspects first and had never heard of thinking, feeling, sensing, or intuition, along with any stereotypical elemental descriptions.

    I wish I had read Jung's psychological types early on.

    I wish people didn't have such stupid conceptions of INTp, Ni in general, Si, Fe, Se (the least understood), and Alpha SF's, because that affected my early typings negatively.

    edit*: At least, I wish i hadn't learned those things first off. There is a similarity to Fi and Fe that may be casually labeled "feeling", but that's something you should realize after you have typed people and are advanced enough to not abuse the Jungian dichotomies.
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    My advice is to disregard the MBTI functions when trying to learn about the Socionics elements. None of them really compute to this theory. The extroverted ones do compute better, but the main ideas are different. I think people will be confused in any case when they are an Ni dominant in MBTI, yet don't relate to Ni dominant in socionics. Or there are a lot of INTPs who thought they were Ti/Ne, but are instead Ni/Te in socionics. Disregarding MBTI in this sense is necessary, especially because there is a lot of nonsense that goes along with it. I like the concept of MBTI dichotomies, those I think can be kept in one's understanding for beneficial reasons.

    Another main concept is to say that information elements are a lot more empirical than the functions are in MBTI. MBTI elements are called "functions" because they're about simple "functions." In socionics, the dominant element is much more broadly based, collaborative of many smaller functions to form a general lifestyle and similarities throughout the type. It's a difference I don't think people even on this forum have caught onto, when they try to simplify. Saying in MBTI that Ni does x, versus in Socionics saying that Ni dominants have general propensities and interests toward a b and c and a lifestyle reflecting x. Socionics information elements are made up of concepts of relationships and values, and core functions (1st and 5th) have a lot to do with dual relations. So types aren't stand alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post

    What really interested you about it..?
    tell them that socionics explains how relationships don't change, but can be predicted on forehand. And that it's not that you can 'work' on your relationship to make a drastic change.

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    JuJu: first of all congratulations on your decision to try to teach this. that's awesome. i know i'll be anxious to hear about how it went. but first, a few questions: are you going to do a workshop on socionics? or an entire course? and at what level? i ask because your answers to these questions will define your audience. once you know your audience, you can tailor your information and teaching methods accordingly.

    if i were to try to teach this theory to social workers, for example, i would probably do 1 or 2 classes on it within a whole course about personality. social workers would tend to be pretty interested in this topic. socionics has an excellent application for marital therapy and for general groups dynamics.

    on the other hand, if you are going to be teaching a bunch of engineers their segment on "human relations" your presentation is probably best kept on the briefer, simpler side. you could even just talk about temperments to a group like this, and some basic principles of attraction and energy.

    i agree with what redbaron is saying about simplicity as a general principle. most people don't want to have to think about anything too complex. besides, it takes forever to really get your mind around this theory. as in years.

    when i first got interested in socionics i wish that there had been more information available at thie site...now there's tons. but at first there was hardly anything besides socionics.com, and that's pretty limited. so, if i could go back i would probably say that i wish someone had outlined the overall theory in more detail, in terms of IE's, functional placements, Model A, temperaments. those are the elements that are most important to understand....relations and types follow this understanding better than precede it. yet, types and relations are going to be the elements that naturally grab your average person's interests.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
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    I was and still am most interested in the inter type relationships and the interaction between IM elements. I mean self discovery is cool and all but being able to figure out others through having an understanding of the self is even cooler. As for learning the hard way, I've had to explain socionics to a few people so far and the biggest thing they always get caught up on is Jungian Dichotomies, so I would say start out with IM elements and don't use Jungian dichotomies as a crutch to explain what you don't know cause if you do then so will your students.
    Easy Day

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    What is this Socionics?
    How can Socionics help me? How can I benefit from it?
    How can I find my type? Why is my type different in different tests?


    Also, you have to consider the problem of tl;dr
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    I guess one of the first things I would tell people is that they shouldn't focus too much on the type descriptions, people are way too complex to be put in 16 types of behavior. That was one of the first things that threw me off because I related to the ILI description very much, even though I do have in my ego I found the descriptions of each type can fit just about anyone. Also, people have to realize that socionics is one sided in some ways because it really doesn't take into account environmental issues. For instance, my mom is an SLI so having been raised by her, I have picked up a lot of her behaviors and this will influence your type no matter what.
    Also, the temperments aren't very reliable because I fit the EJ and IP temperment, again this is because of my parents influence.
    EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1


    As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
    Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962

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    keep it as much practical, not theoretical. Except when you've got a classroom full with ILE's.

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    I usually introduce Socionics with "Have you heard of Myers-Briggs?", and almost nobody has. In the rare case where they have, though, I describe Socionics as Myers-Briggs, but with information elements and relationships.

    I haven't yet met someone who knew about the MBTI functions...



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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Funny. Most people I know know MBTI, .
    wow

    I've never encountered anyone who knows MBTI. (not that I ask everyone...)

    But maybe it's because you know more younger people and MBTI is more popular with them?

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    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
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    Here's a question, why did you once think you were IEE and IEI when the case is neither? What false understanding of socionics led you to those conclusions? Why did you think you were something other than you are?

    Basically answer that, and explain it to your students so they don't get fucked up types too.
    Easy Day

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    This is GREAT stuff, everyone..! (Thank you, Blaze--I hope that I can, at least, spark interest in Socionics.)

    I've read all of these posts and taken notes from each. Thank you for writing I really think that it'll help.

    If anyone ever thinks of anything else, I'd love to read it.

    "How do I find my type?" has been a popular question -- and there's usually a look of disappointment when I say that there's no good test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    "How do I find my type?" has been a popular question -- and there's usually a look of disappointment when I say that there's no good test.
    "Find your dual"

    Ultimate litmus test.

    I'll report back with srspost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    The enneagram is similar as some of my friends started talking about their ennea types one day.
    yes enneagram is somewhat more known here.

    though I see enough mbti books in the store...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    wow

    I've never encountered anyone who knows MBTI. (not that I ask everyone...)

    But maybe it's because you know more younger people and MBTI is more popular with them?
    MBTI is much better known in the US. I dont think socionics is that well known here. Personally i stumbled across socionics in the process of trying to understand a relationship that turned out to be duality and have found socionics to be pretty darned accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    and have found socionics to be pretty darned accurate.
    yep, i totally agree.

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