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Thread: Beta Wisdom

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    Default Beta Wisdom

    Here is one of the best examples of the beta mentality I've seen:

    LaVeyan Satanism - Wikipedia


    On a micro-scale I agree with pretty much everything, but from a wider perspective it has major flaws. This illustrates the analytical vs synthetical postulates of the opposite quadras beta and delta (more on that later).
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    yeah it is. Good for understanding Beta vs Delta aristocracy. Beta is like small cliqueish subversive factions and Delta is a more outwardly, formal, and traditional climate.
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    Not at all; Beta is the least individualistic quadra and the most prone to conformity and large groups; it seems you've missed the point!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Not at all; Beta is the least individualistic quadra and the most prone to conformity and large groups; it seems you've missed the point!
    Yes, and Delta definitely has subversive elements. It's like saying that Fe quadras can't have real relationships, you're kind of just looking at what's "wrong" with a quadra that doesn't value the same things as you.

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    As a philosophy I find it lacks spirit, love and beauty. I don't like it... well part of me does... I bet he had some amazing orgies.
    But yeah it all seems a bit souless.
    Then again maybe anyone of any type could be attracted to it under the right circumstances.

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    oh so you're into orgies. weird, I think my ISTp-Te dad is into orgies. don't really want to explain why.. Deltas and orgies? correlation? maybe
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Not at all; Beta is the least individualistic quadra and the most prone to conformity and large groups; it seems you've missed the point!
    ...yet the satanists, with all their claims of individuality and non-conformism, have developed a "Church", with codes, rituals, and all.

    Thing is, LaVeyan was a beta NF and as such, he was good at protraying an image of something he wasn't. Like Nietszche, he simply built a code summarizing his beta ST ideal. That's why it seems so overworked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    ...yet the satanists, with all their claims of individuality and non-conformism, have developed a "Church", with codes, rituals, and all.
    That's not entirely correct, it is a grave mistake to lump everything into one category and deny everything else. It's like speaking just for the sake of speaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Not at all; Beta is the least individualistic quadra and the most prone to conformity and large groups; it seems you've missed the point!
    interesting. why do you say beta is the least individualistic? can you give a couple examples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    That's not entirely correct, it is a grave mistake to lump everything into one category and deny everything else. It's like speaking just for the sake of speaking.
    Deltas know and reason with their egos, meaning that they really just understand and then decide with their least conscious and thus least inhibited faculties. Obviously subjectivism is not an objective in this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    interesting. why do you say beta is the least individualistic? can you give a couple examples?
    Beta Quadra - Wikisocion

    Preference for larger groups where participation is "collective" rather than focused on individuals for any length of time, but with likely "domination" by more assertive individuals. This means that beta groups discuss topics that everyone could contribute to. Frequent unexplained inside jokes are considered impolite because they exclude other people. Jokes are loud and general, often about stereotypes. Betas attempt to draw others into the group activity: for example, in a situation where there are "group rituals" going on (as in drinking, dancing, etc), there is good-natured pressure on "outsiders" to also participate in them, with a sort of puzzled dismay if they prefer not to. They also try to draw attention to people who might otherwise feel left out - usually this is done with general jokes directed at individuals. In more subdued moments, discussion of ideas involving present trends and political implications, with strong views voiced. Personal experiences tend to be discussed from the point of view of their external impact rather than the individual's own personal view of them.
    When larger social events are organized by Betas (such as parties, receptions etc), they show an inclination to promote activities that will lead to the guests involved as a single group, such as games and shows; dislike for the "quieter" form of events where guests tend to quietly form smaller groups in more intimate atmospheres, which Betas tend to see as boring.
    For Betas atmosphere is more important than specific activity or topic. Groups of betas spend time together to entertain each other. They exchange fun (and often loud) stories to feed the atmosphere, so that the group energy won't run out. People talk fast and they often add comments to other people's stories if they feel that the pace is slowing down. When someone starts to talk, he takes on the obligation to entertain for the duration of the monologue and, in a friendly group, other people only interrupt to try and help him keep control of the atmosphere.
    Talking about personal matters in a group is not something that Betas generally do. It's viewed almost as treachery when something that was told in a one-on-one conversation is retold in front of a group, or when someone criticizes another person's traits in front of the group. Betas believe such things should be told in private and should not be used to embarrass or belittle a friend.
    Betas also don't like it when people tell long, slow stories. Betas try to be polite and listen to the story, and they will forgive you if it was boring for them, but if someone does it too often they might not be invited back. Betas restrict long-winded stories to one-on-one conversations. However, IEIs are more likely to adjust to the slower stories because they are very flexible conversationalists.

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    well....i meant a couple examples from life!

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    well....i meant a couple examples from life!
    Sorry, LSI happens to be the least intuitive β...

    Well, I am in the Navy, so my whole life pretty much consists of Beta-type group behavior...I like to think of fans at an international soccer match (+).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Obviously subjectivism is not an objective in this discussion.
    Haha, yes. But isn't typing people into different quadras a bit derogatory ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Haha, yes. But isn't typing people into different quadras a bit derogatory ?
    No; unless you want to consider the connotation you associated with typing and categories derogatory with respect to those terms; what is more important is whether you have an objective, or your are being subjective; whether you are reasoning or deciding with respect to a subject or object...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Sorry, LSI happens to be the least intuitive β...

    Well, I am in the Navy, so my whole life pretty much consists of Beta-type group behavior...I like to think of fans at an international soccer match (+).
    Is that so? there are a lot of Navy men that comes to my store to shop. whoa, I would say most of them are Beta ST, and a good part of them are females.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    No; unless you want to consider the connotation you associated with typing and categories derogatory with respect to those terms; what is more important is whether you have an objective, or your are being subjective; whether you are reasoning or deciding with respect to a subject or object...
    At least that makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    ...yet the satanists, with all their claims of individuality and non-conformism, have developed a "Church", with codes, rituals, and all.
    Exactly why it is a load of rubbish.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    oh so you're into orgies. weird, I think my ISTp-Te dad is into orgies. don't really want to explain why.. Deltas and orgies? correlation? maybe
    delta orgy atmospheres tend to be extremely comfort oriented. the rules are usually laid down beforehand. everything is timed and orderly, including partner switching, but individual satisfaction is paramount so the rules are often relaxed. everyone has a special safety word in case things get too rough.

    gamma orgy atmospheres are more business oriented. every coupling is seen as a business transaction, and people work up debt when sleeping with different partners.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 07490 View Post
    Is that so? there are a lot of Navy men that comes to my store to shop. whoa, I would say most of them are Beta ST, and a good part of them are females.
    It can be very Delta at times (as Nick will tell you), especially if you are one-on-one with a superior, but for the most part it is very Beta IMO; in my experience the sailors themselves come from every quadra...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Not at all; Beta is the least individualistic quadra and the most prone to conformity and large groups; it seems you've missed the point!
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Yes, and Delta definitely has subversive elements. It's like saying that Fe quadras can't have real relationships, you're kind of just looking at what's "wrong" with a quadra that doesn't value the same things as you.
    No it doesn't, you are Alpha shut up.


    It's the way that quadra groups grow, not whether they can attain high popularity.

    Have you ever seen clockwork Orange? Have you ever read The Destructors? Cliche yes, but Beta groups grow in that way.

    Beta:

    Beta's start off as small decentralized clans that merge and separate chaotically. Alpha is uninterested in factions, but becomes ripe for it. Each group is informally centralized. An outsider may not know who is the leader, except by keen insight or sticking around with the group for awhile. Then, it will become clear that one person in the group has pervasive emotional and often physical power over the rest of the group. The lower clan members become dependent on the leader for their status (The leader creates the aristocratic atmosphere, which gives a feeling of status to the followers).

    Eventually, the Beta's will sense a zeitgeist forming, usually in the form of a single charismatic leader. The groups will assimilate eachother by whatever means, and then by the leader's dictate, a formalized organization will emerge. Even then, Beta autocracy is very chaotic. Will run more like a court-feudal system (see Nazi germany) and/or a bureaucracy (see Warhammer 40k Imperium lol).

    Beta's seem to be good at gathering momentum, but once in power, they falter and break. So much in Beta politics is dedicated to scheming, factionism, and idealism that the power structure usually caves in on itself or simply putters out (Not because of any one element, but as a result of how all the factors play out).

    The point is that Beta is NOT Delta! Beta is about mobility, fractioning, assimilating, spending. Beta is dynamic power, unlike static Delta power.


    Delta:

    Delta groups form after Beta has crashed and after Gamma has thrown in counter ideology to refocus the situation. Delta society emerges not from many small factions, but from a common (usually geographical) culture. Beta is more subversive and sneaky in its uprising (in the beginning). Each Beta group hangs onto some inuitive sense of purpose. Delta does not. Delta comes from common ground where there are accepted practices.

    Delta groups have a penchant for saying things like, "The american way of life" or "This is just how we do things around here". Deltas feel a sense of cultural entitlement. The roots of Delta are strong, and the institutions remaining have proved their worth by their longevity. Now that the fire has died, and the land green, it is time to never let the Beta ruckus happen again. Stabalize, harvest, prosper, live the right kind of life. To have this stability, certain individuals of skill will need to manage society. The natural aristocracy of Delta is concealed by pomp and ceremony, often with democratic trappings.

    It is only when the feeling of false Utopia is voiced by the outcasted Beta's, that the Alpha (specifically ENTp) notices and seeks to introduce new Ti/Fe. It will usually be in the form of strange philosophy, prediction, more efficient methods etc. The Delta's would not mind these things, except that it would require uprooting the whole social system. Alpha NT's have very detached models of social organization. It may be more efficient, but it's unlikely it will be easy to bring about. Delta resents Alpha in general for it's flighty idealism and demand for social changes that require a major change of perspective.

    Beta: Faction, assimilation, usurp, zeitgeist, infighting, mobilize, dynamic
    Delta: Common ground, stabalize, sustain, manage, static

    The church of satan represents Beta organizational mindset imo.

    Well anyway, I have ranted slightly. Also, this was more about power formation and such, so it's not like Beta's are constantly gang raping everyone or w/e.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    No.



    No it doesn't, you are Alpha shut up.


    It's the way that quadra groups grow, not whether they can attain high popularity.

    Have you ever seen clockwork Orange? Have you ever read The Destructors? Cliche yes, but Beta groups grow in that way.

    Beta:

    Beta's start off as small decentralized clans that merge and separate chaotically. Alpha is uninterested in factions, but becomes ripe for it. Each group is informally centralized. An outsider may not know who is the leader, except by keen insight or sticking around with the group for awhile. Then, it will become clear that one person in the group has pervasive emotional and often physical power over the rest of the group. The lower clan members become dependent on the leader for their status (The leader creates the aristocratic atmosphere, which gives a feeling of status to the followers).

    Eventually, the Beta's will sense a zeitgeist forming, usually in the form of a single charismatic leader. The groups will assimilate eachother by whatever means, and then by the leader's dictate, a formalized organization will emerge. Even then, Beta autocracy is very chaotic. Will run more like a court-feudal system (see Nazi germany) and/or a bureaucracy (see Warhammer 40k Imperium lol).

    Beta's seem to be good at gathering momentum, but once in power, they falter and break. So much in Beta politics is dedicated to scheming, factionism, and idealism that the power structure usually caves in on itself or simply putters out (Not because of any one element, but as a result of how all the factors play out).

    The point is that Beta is NOT Delta! Beta is about mobility, fractioning, assimilating, spending. Beta is dynamic power, unlike static Delta power.


    Delta:

    Delta groups form after Beta has crashed and after Gamma has thrown in counter ideology to refocus the situation. Delta society emerges not from many small factions, but from a common (usually geographical) culture. Beta is more subversive and sneaky in its uprising (in the beginning). Each Beta group hangs onto some inuitive sense of purpose. Delta does not. Delta comes from common ground where there are accepted practices.

    Delta groups have a penchant for saying things like, "The american way of life" or "This is just how we do things around here". Deltas feel a sense of cultural entitlement. The roots of Delta are strong, and the institutions remaining have proved their worth by their longevity. Now that the fire has died, and the land green, it is time to never let the Beta ruckus happen again. Stabalize, harvest, prosper, live the right kind of life. To have this stability, certain individuals of skill will need to manage society. The natural aristocracy of Delta is concealed by pomp and ceremony, often with democratic trappings.

    It is only when the feeling of false Utopia is voiced by the outcasted Beta's, that the Alpha (specifically ENTp) notices and seeks to introduce new Ti/Fe. It will usually be in the form of strange philosophy, prediction, more efficient methods etc. The Delta's would not mind these things, except that it would require uprooting the whole social system. Alpha NT's have very detached models of social organization. It may be more efficient, but it's unlikely it will be easy to bring about. Delta resents Alpha in general for it's flighty idealism and demand for social changes that require a major change of perspective.

    Beta: Faction, assimilation, usurp, zeitgeist, infighting, mobilize, dynamic
    Delta: Common ground, stabalize, sustain, manage, static

    The church of satan represents Beta organizational mindset imo.

    Well anyway, I have ranted slightly. Also, this was more about power formation and such, so it's not like Beta's are constantly gang raping everyone or w/e.

    If Beta is like A Clockwork Orange, I'd like to venture that Gamma is like Anamaniacs and Delta is more like Tiny Toon Adventures...until 6:00 when The Simpsons comes on and then it is Alpha again...

    For someone with zero Ni you seem to believe you have a very rich understanding of how things progress in time...it is the ENTp more than all types that makes me realize I will never be Alpha...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post

    Beta's start off as small decentralized clans that merge and separate chaotically. Alpha is uninterested in factions, but becomes ripe for it. Each group is informally centralized. An outsider may not know who is the leader, except by keen insight or sticking around with the group for awhile. Then, it will become clear that one person in the group has pervasive emotional and often physical power over the rest of the group. The lower clan members become dependent on the leader for their status (The leader creates the aristocratic atmosphere, which gives a feeling of status to the followers).
    This informal leader role that you've exactly described is commonly attributed to Se dominance.

    Your post was very good ime, except I have one small objection. I believe delta can have subversive elements, only that the subversive element becomes the lynch pin around which they organize a clean, efficient social structure.

    For example, in some culture, a group of deltas can be all about cum-dripping anal meathole orgies with leather domination implements. But they'll make sure that no one is belittled -- that everyone's humanistic integrity and individuality is respected (+Fi); that no semen messes up the carpet; that anal penetration techniques are comfortable and painless (Si); and that the leather is of high quality, dependable and purchased at a reasonable price (Te).
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    delta orgy atmospheres tend to be extremely comfort oriented. the rules are usually laid down beforehand. everything is timed and orderly, including partner switching, but individual satisfaction is paramount so the rules are often relaxed. everyone has a special safety word in case things get too rough.

    gamma orgy atmospheres are more business oriented. every coupling is seen as a business transaction, and people work up debt when sleeping with different partners.
    lol, and what about alpha ones?
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    For example, in some culture, a group of deltas can be all about cum-dripping anal meathole orgies with leather domination implements. But they'll make sure that no one is belittled -- that everyone's humanistic integrity and individuality is respected (+Fi); that no semen messes up the carpet; that anal penetration techniques are comfortable and painless (Si); and that the leather is of high quality, dependable and purchased at a reasonable price (Te).
    Have you been to one of my parties?






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