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Thread: ESFjs and Hellenic civilization

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    Default ESFjs and Hellenic civilization

    Has anyone noticed a tendency for ESEs (scholars or otherwise) to be enraptured by, and even glorify aspects of the Hellenic civilization? I mean the Hellenic civilization specifically, not just any old culture.

    Example off the top of my head:
    Heinrich Schliemann
    Gene Roddenberry
    Arnold J. Toynbee (tentative)

    INTjs do love the classics, but I've noticed this tendency spilling out into their duals as well.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    I have not noticed this, but it sounds interesting. Any theories on why this might be?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Our picture of Hellenic culture is tied up with Athenian Philosophy, which is pretty Ti and Alpha (even though Athens herself was, I'd think, Gamma). Sparta was Ti + Se.

    Many philosophical Ideas about governance were naive and hopelessly Utopian.

    It was a time of experimentation and social innovation that had never occurred before (it did occur in Mesopotamia to some extent, but you get the gist). New forms of social interaction radically broke away from older, more archaic forms of government.

    The philosophical culture in many of the courts. The personality-driven philosophical culture inside Athens.

    The fact that city states are more easily swayed by great personalities (Themistocles, Alcibiades, etc.), unlike modern democratic states. Politics doesn't seem so impersonal anymore.

    Greek spiritual life in the form of the Greek pantheon is dominated by great personalities as well, their loves and internecine jealousies.


    Overall, I'd think such a society would appeal to an ethical type, especially one that valued TiNe, Fe (for the intrigue) and belonged to a quadra that was the least concerned with the modern world (Te and Se devaluing).


    That's all I can think of now.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    You may be onto something. There's an interesting section on the wiki about the cultural shifts that would fit into quadra values
    Alpha is seen as the quadra of "birth" or childhood, as in, new concepts and creations without boundaries, which is quickly stifled by Se/Ni valuers (particularly Betas) who instill structure and hierarchies into society
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    (quadra relay race)
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    You may be onto something. There's an interesting section on the wiki about the cultural shifts that would fit into quadra values
    Alpha is seen as the quadra of "birth" or childhood, as in, new concepts and creations without boundaries, which is quickly stifled by Se/Ni valuers (particularly Betas) who instill structure and hierarchies into society
    my conception is that beta takes alpha ideas and runs with them. enfj energizes the cause, estp marshals the troops, istj figures out the procedures, and infp gives it some soul. beta applies alpha ideas.

    gamma sets up efficient profit-making enterprises with beta causes. delta institutionalizes and softens the enterprise. then, alpha comes along and sets off another bomb...LOL

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I think it's ISTJ who mobilizes the troops and ESTJ who leads them.

    Jxrtes: I will have to check this out. It could well be due to Alpha Ne, though. Idealism, utopia... obviously you measure the magnitude of your suffering by how much better off you think you could be. But I think there is something a little more concrete to it, my dear mirror: consider that Ne(T) HA tries to understand ideas. The genesis of all modern ideas lies in classical antiquity. So if you want to understand how we got here, then you will want to look back to the initial propositions which set us on the way. Read those, then you can begin the journey to understand the history of ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Has anyone noticed a tendency for ESEs (scholars or otherwise) to be enraptured by, and even glorify aspects of the Hellenic civilization? I mean the Hellenic civilization specifically, not just any old culture.
    No, I haven't noticed. On a possibly related note..I know one ESE who was at some point in his life(adolescence) pretty much obsessed with Hitler and his Reich. Thanks God he cured himself from it and married an EIE.
    Last edited by Trevor; 11-28-2009 at 04:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    yeah, i agree with that about Se-Ni, but I think it would be Gamma who would more readily "stifle" Alpha's new creations and systems (they are opposing quadras after all.) Alpha is able to pass them along via Fe-Ti to Beta; Beta will accept input from Alpha that way, unlike Gamma.
    Good point, I don't think "stifle" was really a good word to use on my part. Gamma seems to only take information and ideas that seems productively promising, which is rather polar to Alphas
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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Athenian philosophy... was pretty Ti, I guess, especially Aristotle, who reinterpreted all of the ancient Greek philosophers.

    Parmenides and Heraclitus were manifestly Ni, though, and I personally think that Plato was ILI and Socrates was IEI... but that's partially wishful thinking on my part (not that there isn't evidence for those).

    Arguably Hellenic culture but certainly the Renaissance and Romantic reimaginings of it are very Si-valuing, all about the physical beauty and the beautiful sculptures and what-not. I'd believe Gamma for Peloponnesian War era Athens.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    did you mean LSI and SLE, respectively?


    the LSI (the "Inspector") is the one who will "take only that which actually is logically substantiated and is practically oriented", reject the rest, and defend the position (that role is more primarily ). it's the SLE (the "Marshal") who would mobilize the troops and assume power (that role is more primarily ).
    Yes, that was a typo.

    Do you notice that the description of LSI logic sounds an awful lot like 2D Alpha Ti? It relies completely on experience. There is little mention of how LSIs actually demonstrate their ability.

    The LSI would position the troops to maximum effect, seeking to put as much power in the hands of the SLE as possible. You see SLE will fight whenever, wherever, with whatever they've got. Fighting: that's what SLE does. Some SLEs will fight at the drop of a hat, but it is not impossible for them to get inundated. That's where LSI comes in: LSI keeps the troops in order at all times, so that if there is a battle SLE will have as strong a position as possible.

    Can't you just see the mirror relation in play?

    SLE: Dude, I am SO going to kick those guys' ASSES!
    LSI: Not with those numbers, you're not.
    SLE: Shit... you're right. Better retreat for now.

    Compare with this:

    SLE: Dude, I am SO going to kick those guys' ASSES!
    LSI: Practical experience suggests that in this situation your chances of success are very low.
    SLE: (...WTF is he talking about?)
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 11-28-2009 at 05:17 PM.

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    Weird that you say this... My classics prof at Wesleyan was ESFj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    yeah, i agree with that about Se-Ni, but I think it would be Gamma who would more readily "stifle" Alpha's new creations and systems (they are opposing quadras after all.) Alpha is able to pass them along via Fe-Ti to Beta; Beta will accept input from Alpha that way, unlike Gamma.


    yeah. that article explains how the information passes from Alpha to Beta (I bolded that part), and the rest:
    I was under the impression that ENTp was first in the quadra relay race, but now that I think about it should be ISFp (or just irrational dyad simultaneously).

    ISFp have a very deep and ancient vibe/quality to me. Jung spoke of Si being "ancient" or primeval, which sounds badass enough to be true. Old soul kinda thing? People say I have a young soul because I'm arrogant, skeptical, and right all the time.
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    People used to say my INFp sister had an "old soul", but yeah it might be.
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