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Thread: Differentiating quasi-identicals j/p on basis of dual leading function

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    Default Differentiating quasi-identicals j/p on basis of dual leading function

    Does this work:

    If you are INTx (for example) choose which describes you best:

    Inventive or Commanding

    If you say Inventive then you are INTj. If you say Commanding then you are INTp.


    Now look at the summary below:

    Inventive (ENTp/INTj) v Commanding (ENTj/INTp)

    Spontaneous (ESTp/ISTj) v Responsible (ESTj/ISTp)

    Persuasive (ENFj/INFp) v Optimistic (ENFp/INFj)

    Harmonizing (ESFj/ISFp) v Generous (ESFp/ISFj)

    DOES IT WORK??

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    I believe, that rationality/irrationality scale are connected with divergent and convergent ways of thinking. Irrational types say their oppinnion, but are willing to change it, when new information comes; rational types concentrate on one certain truth, which they make as valid judgement. From this comes the misunderstandings of irrationals and ratsionals, when they either face the situation of sovling the problem with together or have to become intimate. Both of these situations need people to become close and sharing more inner thoughts and feelings, but both of them have differend ideas, what this meas.Irrationals see intimacy as changing playfully each others thoughts; rationals see intimacy as changing secret thoughts. That's also why Socionics calls rational/irrational relations distant relations, I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Does this work:

    If you are INTx (for example) choose which describes you best:

    Inventive or Commanding

    If you say Inventive then you are INTj. If you say Commanding then you are INTp.


    Now look at the summary below:

    Persuasive (ENFj/INFp) v Optimistic (ENFp/INFj)

    DOES IT WORK??
    No, I am afraid it does not seem to work too well. Sorry to let you down again.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaido21
    I believe, that rationality/irrationality scale are connected with divergent and convergent ways of thinking. Irrational types say their oppinnion, but are willing to change it, when new information comes; rational types concentrate on one certain truth, which they make as valid judgement..
    I am not quite willing to buy this. It would seem to me to be more type specific, though I cannot detect any certain correlations yet. Give me facts and I do change my opinion. :wink:

    Quote Originally Posted by kaido21
    From this comes the misunderstandings of irrationals and ratsionals, when they either face the situation of sovling the problem with together or have to become intimate. Both of these situations need people to become close and sharing more inner thoughts and feelings, but both of them have differend ideas, what this meas. Irrationals see intimacy as changing playfully each others thoughts; rationals see intimacy as changing secret thoughts. That's also why Socionics calls rational/irrational relations distant relations, I believe.
    I think there is definitely something to this, it certainly would affect compatibility too...

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    Does this help you to determine whether you are a 'p' or a 'j'?

    If you are a ESFx or a ISFx then choose which describes you the best:
    o You are peaceful and diplomatic and know well how to avoid confrontations and conflicts. You know how to make others happy. You always try to uplift any situation, turning negative into positive. You have patience for others inability's and shortcomings. When you interact with others you are tactful, polite and do not like to pressurise or push people. (ISFp/ESFj)
    o You are firm and definite, and if required, can defend yourself and relatives well. You are very hardworking and always keep your home and workplace clean and in order. You achieve your goals through perseverance and systematic consistency. You are straight and uncompromising when defending your point of view or when criticising others. People respect and appreciate your principals and seriousness. (ISFj/ESFp)

    If you are a ENTx or a INTx then choose which describes you the best:
    o Having analysed an idea and understood its importance and potential you are often converted to it. You constantly develop and perfect it. (INTj/ENTp)
    o You are cautious, prudent, wise and clear-sighted. You have the ability to create good conditions in which to function, arranging all items so you can rationally organise your work and leisure. You know how to stimulate others to business activities and enterprises in order that people can achieve a high financial level. (INTp/ENTj)

    If you are a INFx or a ENFx then choose which describes you the best:
    o You understand others moods and dispositions well and will often use your good sense of humour to uplift friends, family and therefore yourself also. You possess a rich variety of emotions and you can apply it to many situations. You depend greatly on your emotions to guide yourself. Sometimes you show great feeling for people and may often idealise others. Wherever you go you create an atmosphere of elation and optimism. (INFp/ENFj)
    o You are prepared to spend time, energy and effort helping people with real need. Your aim is to create peaceful, harmonious, conflict free surroundings, in which others feel comfortable expressing their talents. You are an effective counsellor and peacemaker. You forgive others for negative behaviour, instead appealing to people's conscience where ethical situations are concerned. (INFj/ENFp)

    If you are a ESTx or a ISTx then choose which describes you the best:
    o You have a good business sense. You usually only undertake projects that you feel will be beneficial to yourself in a material sense and you stay away from unprofitable ventures. You can work very hard to achieve a goal. Your method of working is deliberate, steady and with attention to details. Usually you plan every detail of your work beforehand and prepare all necessary items before, often showing inventiveness and practicality. (ISTp/ESTj)
    o You are persistent and persevering when working towards your goals. You know well how to practically utilise reference material. You are a good administrator and make sure that your instructions and plans are carried out to your specifications. You do not compromise when it comes to fulfilling your duties. You can impose discipline on to others especially those who do not fulfil their duties. (ISTj/ESTp)

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    Default Differentiating quasi-identicals j/p on basis of dual leading function

    Let's say, for example, you are INTx. Look at the base function descriptions of your potential duals, that is ESFp and ESFj:

    ESFp
    - ESFp's strongest virtues are resolution and enterprise. Their type of personality often possesses an inclination to leadership. They are not afraid to take leadership when a global task is involved. They always show self-confidence, even in the most adverse situations. They know well how to defend themselves and their reputation against unjust accusations. ESFps take an active interest in the welfare of their families, helping if necessary.

    ESFj
    - ESFjs have a strong sense of justice and they know well how to actively defend their principals. In every day life they are open, affable, talkative and friendly people and others appreciate and respect this. They are empathic to other people's problems and very good at understanding people's feelings. ESFjs will not let others down and they will always help somebody who needs them.

    Out of the two, choose the one that describes you the best.

    The one you choose is your dual. So if you choose ESFj then you are INTj. If you choose ESFp then you are INTp.

    IT'S SO EASY.

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    So far for me, it works.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Me too. That is a great innovative idea Hugo. That is what attracts me to ESFJs value justice and so forth.

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    Default Re: I've finally sorted out the j/p problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Although you have come up with some very interesting methods to figure out type, Hugo, I really don't think you will ever find a way that fits for everybody.

    Why not?

    Well, the field itself is incomplete.
    What do you mean?

    May I add that you don't have to compare the base functions for ESFj and ESFp, although this is the best option. You could also compare the creative functions of ESFj and ESFp. Other than that you could compare the base functions (or creative function) for the potential activity relations, that is ISFp and ISFj. Also, you can compare the base function description of one potential dual (or potential activity partner) with the base function of the other.

    In addition, the descriptions for the base functions for ESFj and ESFp given above only apply to them and no other type. Remember that the latest socionics developments reveal that ESFj and ENFj do not in fact share the same base function. For ESFj it is - and for ENFj it is + . Similarly for ESFp the base function is + and for ESTp it is - .

    Although, for example, the base function for ESFj and ENFj are the same, that is , the base function descriptions for both will be different, becuase they both have different creative functions.

    There is no conflict between what I say and what socionics says. They go hand-in-hand.

    Lets take the example of INTj. As is in the superego block, the INTj knows he has problems with it. As is in superid block, the INTj doesn't know he has problems with it. That is part of the reason why by comparing the two base functions IT'S SO EASY to determine type. It is easier for an INTj to do this than to compare him self with an INTp. Even the names of relation give a clue to support my argument. For an INTj:

    INTp is semi-identical
    ESFj is your dual
    ESFp is conflicting

    There is a tiny gap between comparing your base function with the base function of your semi-identical (making it difficult to determine the j/p issue), than comparing the base functions of your potential duals (in this case, ESFp and ESFj) where there will be a massive gap, making it much easier to determine the j/p issue.

    I am confident it works for everybody. In fact there are no two ways about it. If someone claims that it does not work for them then they don't know what their type is.

    I am so confident about my findings that I will challenge anyone about it.

    The problem days of determining type (with respect to j/p) are over!

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    Either one seems appealing(ESFp is more appealing than ESFj in your description, ill give you that much). Thats because you list only the good aspects of each type. ESFps have a good side to them, as do ESFjs but both types also have a dark side.

    The thing that I find scariest about ESFjs is their craftiness, how they can manipulate emotionally, in a planned out, deliberate manner. I have a cousin who I typed as ESFj and this seems to be her biggest fault. This scares INTps to death, because INTps are extremely nondeliberate and have no notion of mind games.

    ESFps, I would imagine, scare INTjs due to their lack of responsiblity and their spontaniety which confuses INTjs. Im not sure about this, however, as Im not INTj, Im only assuming.


    Anyways this is my point: its a good idea to try and do this, to see which type you are by seeing how you relate to your dual or conflicting type, its one of the things that helped me determine my type, so I know, but you probably need to list more about the types so that people can determine which one they like and which one they dont. Cone and Pedro seemed to think it was enough though, so whatever.

    I guess your descriptions aerent so bad after all, Hugo, because ESFp seems more appealing. But maybe the description would be more complete if you list the dark side of each type as well.

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    Default INFP or INFJ?

    Let's say, for example, you are INFx. Look at the base function descriptions of your potential duals, that is ESTp and ESTj:

    - ESTps are, without a doubt, wilful and determined people. They always set themselves important and far-reaching goals. They don't like to waste their energy on small, unimportant matters. ESTps are very flexible people and can easily adapt to changing situations, compromising if necessary, without losing sight of the main objective. They are in their element in critical situations. They are prepared to take great risks, but never without good reason. ESTps like to demonstrate their bravery, intelligence, will power and cool head.

    -- ESTj's strongest virtue is strict factual logic, which allows them to make exact calculations in practical matters. They are very realistic people. They accurately judge the effectiveness of undertaking projects. They are always very well informed in the field of their activity. They know how to use financial resources rationally and economically. ESTjs can provide for themselves and their family and can create a comfortable lifestyle. They possess good organisation skills.

    Out of the two, choose the one that describes you the best.

    The one you choose is your dual. So if you choose ESTj then you are INFj. If you choose ESTp then you are INFp.
    Thank you Hugo.


    Hmm, well maybe. Perhaps I can say that I would rather like to posses the ESTJ qualities, but neither of the options really describes me too well. How about other INFPs/INFJs?
    I think it is high time to start working on the INFP or INFJ problem too...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerio
    Either one seems appealing(ESFp is more appealing than ESFj in your description, ill give you that much). Thats because you list only the good aspects of each type. ESFps have a good side to them, as do ESFjs but both types also have a dark side.
    Firstly, I asked you to choose the base function description out of your 2 potential duals that describes you better, not the one that seems more appealing. This is very important to bear in mind.

    Also, I have deliberately left out the "bad sides", because the bad sides of ESFj and ESFp would be the INTx's strengths.

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    Default Re: INFP or INFJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    ... I would rather like to posses the ESTJ qualities, but neither of the options really describes me too well.
    I haven't asked people to find the function they would like to possess, but the one that describes them the best. This is very important to bear in mind.

    Neither of the two options will describe you too well, but one will (according to Model A theory) definately describe you better.

    As I said before:

    Lets take the example of INTj. As is in the superego block, the INTj knows he has problems with it. As is in superid block, the INTj doesn't know he has problems with it. That is part of the reason why by comparing the two base functions IT'S SO EASY to determine type

    Give it another go.

    For INFx, out of the two base function descriptions, choose the one that describes you the best.

    If you choose instead of then that means that you are INFj (even according to Model A).

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    Hugo, i think it should say "I am an ISTj" beneath you name.

    Are sure you are not a beta? Does your life suck? Do you recognize that it sucks and just try to laugh and make the best of it?

    You just seem a little too literal in and and a little too self-confident in your questionable method. Of course, there are many types within each type.

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    And did you ever notice that Hugo's posts are very beautiful to look at? Same with CuriousSoul's. I admire that quality in people.

    And by the way, Hugo, this is by far the best test that you've come up with so far.


    Your INTp friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Whatever type I am, it makes no difference to discussions in this forum.

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    In a way it does, because if you can't type yoursef, your methods for typing others will always be suspect.

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    Default From One Thing to Another

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    I haven't asked people to find the function they would like to possess, but the one that describes them the best. This is very important to bear in mind.
    I suppose I shall have to clarify myself: I am unable to choose between the two options you presented with reasonable reliability. I do not see the point of forcing the choise, as an almost arbitrary guess is only likely to give a false impression of confidence in my choise, and as I am already intimately aware of the theory I may well be subconsciously affected by it. What I can say is what I would rather like to possess. This may not be what you wanted to know, but I mentioned it hoping you would be able to incorporate it into your model. For as this website of the Harvard University Social Cognition & Emotion Laboratory, originally linked by AbsurdLen, put it:

    7. Knowledge of Self
    Of all the people whom one can know, the self is perhaps the most vexing. How do we attain self-knowledge? Direct knowledge of the self may be severely limited, and we may come to know ourselves largely by observing our own behavior and then "inventing stories" that explain it. The frontal lobes help us construct these stories, and damage to them or their connections can either render us "selfless," or leave us unable to tell our "true" from our "false" selves.

    http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~dtg/psy1055.htm

    Human beings are simply not equipped by evolution with the ability to judge their own personalities and abilities with a significant degree of objectivity, and perhaps even the concept of permanent personality traits is flawed. According to behaviorism we are essentially what we do, and though I seem to usually behave in one way, it may well only reflect the demands of my enviroment rather than any innate qualities that reliably determine my future behavior. Depending on the situation I can be either resolute or responsible - and for much of the time demonstrating both qualities seems demanding. What I consciously would like to be like is, on the other hand, at least in my case a much easier choise. Perhaps this conscious preference is related to my "Type of Information Metabolism" - perhaps not - further research is needed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Neither of the two options will describe you too well, but one will (according to Model A theory) definately describe you better.
    According to Model A probably yes, but whether the Model A is an accurate model of the functioning of the human mind is still very much an open question. If the Model A was accurately correct, questions like this should be quite easy to answer - yet they are anything but. Most personality type theories are based on the assumption that people can be sorted on the dichotomous scales. If these scales reflect underlying type differences one would expect to empirically find a bimodal distribution of the answers, most people falling at either one or the other end, yet in practise the answers are almost always more evenly, often normally, distributed. The most generally accepted theory of personality with a significant body of empirical evidence to back it up, is the Five Factor Model of personality. Perhaps the clear "digital", either-or logic of socionics does not correspond with reality and the more appropriate model would be a simple normal distribution. At least for now I still see hope for the Model A, but I hope you would take a look at other theories as well...

    The Five Factor Model
    The Five Factor Model is currently the most widely accepted trait theory and has been independently arrived at by many different studies. On one hand, this shows that the model is robust; on the other hand, because each researcher used slightly different definitions and names for each factor, several versions of the Five Factor Model exist, all with subtle differences from one another. One prominent version is called the Big Five and was developed by Lewis Goldberg; another one, which we will mainly focus on here, was developed by Costa and McCrae. These two theories differ mainly in the fifth factor: While Costa and McCrae call it Openness to Experience, Goldberg prefers the term Intellect. It is important to note that "intellect" does not mean "intelligence", but rather "intellectual curiosity".

    Unlike, for example, the MBTI, these factors are treated as continuous scales, not type categories. Because the scores are normally distributed, most people's scores fall in the middle of the range and so it does not make sense to define an arbitrary cutoff point in the middle of the scale to characterize people as one of two types. In fact, an extremely low or extremely high score on one or more of the dimensions often indicates some type of personality disorder; this is why some psychologists administer the NEO PI to their clients to identify potential problem areas. (Some personality disorders are covered in the section on personality management.)

    http://forbin.mit.edu/RiskAndPrefere...litymodels.jsp
    (There is a lot to explore. Do not limit yourself too strictly to socionics.)

    The trouble in typing would largely seem to be that the strength of the personality traits on the four scales do not always/often reflect the order of the functions in the socionics model. For example an ENTP can be very good-natured, trusting, helpful and thus possess all the characteristics of those scoring high on the Agreeableness scale: One's orientation along a continuum from compassion to antagonism in thoughts, feelings, and actions, and thus might well test as an ethical type. Yet introverted ethics is the fourth function in the socionics model and the ENTP lacks confidence in naturally expressing his/her emotions and independently making ethical decisions - drawing the line that this degree of self-sacrifice is good enough - and may thus appear even more "holier-than-thou" than a person with an ethical type would. In other words - I am inclined to believe that Dmitri Lytov was for once correct and James Earl Carter is indeed an ENTP. At least in terms of visual identification his often rather ackward smile is quite similar to couple of ENTPs I know; and personally I find both ISFJ and INFJ unlikely...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    And did you ever notice that Hugo's posts are very beautiful to look at? Same with CuriousSoul's. I admire that quality in people.

    And by the way, Hugo, this is by far the best test that you've come up with so far.


    Your INTp friend,

    Cone
    Thank you.

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    Default Re: From One Thing to Another

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    I haven't asked people to find the function they would like to possess, but the one that describes them the best. This is very important to bear in mind.
    I suppose I shall have to clarify myself: I am unable to choose between the two options you presented with reasonable reliability. I do not see the point of forcing the choise, as an almost arbitrary guess is only likely to give a false impression of confidence in my choise
    As you know I am an INTj

    Here is why I chose over :


    I have a strong sense of justice. I know well how to actively defend my principals. I am friendly. I am empathic to other people's problems. I will not let others down. I will help somebody who needs me.


    definately have no inclination to leadership. I hardly ever show self-confidence. I hardly ever defend myself.

    Maybe the following will you:


    Do you set yourself important and far-reaching goals?
    Do you dislike wasting your energy on small, unimportant matters.
    Are you very flexible people? Can you adapt to changing situations?


    Do you apply strict factual logic?
    Do you make exact calculations in practical matters?
    Do you use financial resources rationally and economically?

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    I asked Lőtov about this Big 5 thing, what I read over the local library, untill the culturalnazies, I mean local workers, who have unpractical methods, took this book away. Aniway, I asked him about this thing and he sayd that the Big 5 theory and Socionics don't correlate well.

    And subconciouss thing is subconciouss. I see a lot of people complaining over the problems related to their 5th function, but the whole thing is not conciouss, so they don't understand what's wrong with them, though they have jobs and intimate relations. And as usuall, psychologists are just saing let your feelings go and your problems wanish.

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    Dear Curious Soul,

    Maybe you also want to try to compare the creative functions of your potential duals, that is, of ESTp with of ESTj:


    ESTjs appreciate high quality in finished work very much and do not like lack of discipline or laziness in others. They know how to create good working conditions for themselves and others. They prefer solid well made goods as well as tasty and healthy food. ESTjs aspire to prosperity and a healthy, harmonious life.


    ESTps posses good organising abilities. They know how to find the appropriate people and how to arrange them according to their business qualities and functional uses. They know how to use others abilities and talents in order to achieve a goal. They do not like to show off too much, preferring to remain in the wings. When ESTps undertake a project they also acknowledge and accept the responsibility that comes with it.

    If describes you better then you are INFj and if describes you better the you are INFp.

    You may also want to compare the base (or creative) functions of your potential activity partners.

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    Default Here's another j/p solution

    Go to socionics.com

    1) If you think you are INTj (for example) compare the base function descriptions of your quasi-identical relation (INTp) and your benfactor (INFp). If the benefactor base function description sounds more like you than your quasi-identical relation, then you are definately INTj.

    2) Or compare the base function description of the type you think you are (eg INTj) with the comparative relation (ISTj). If you think the ISTj base function description sounds more like you than the INTj one, then you are definately INTp.

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    Default Response

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Dear Curious Soul,

    Maybe you also want to try to compare the creative functions of your potential duals, that is, of ESTp with of ESTj:
    Dear Hugo, I am sad to let you down once again, but I have done all the comparisons in my mind, and to be honest I cannot say that my answers would naturally fall in line with one type - though generally I do seem to be prone to think more along the lines of ESTJ being my dual. What I see as the main problem is that I know this stuff all too well alreaydy, and therefore I cannot make objective judgements. You should try to find fresh and innocent "laboratory mice" to experiment with. Give the test to someone who does not have a glue about socionics - and then ask them to take the proper Socionics Type Assistant test later and see if you see any correlations. Maybe this method has potential, but it is an empirical question that does not necessarily follow from the socionics modelling.

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    I see a lot of people complaining over the problems related to their 5th function, but the whole thing is not conciouss, so they don't understand what's wrong with them
    You're right. I can't see how I have weak Se, or Se at all, but believe me, I do.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Don't worry Hugo INFJs are like the physical embodiment of intellectual inertia.

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    Default The Physical Embodiment of Intellectual Inertia Itself

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-The-Lion
    Don't worry Hugo INFJs are like the physical embodiment of intellectual inertia.
    Heh, heh. This is a good one.
    You know that is what socionics tells me I am good at: the skill to see the absence of essence, to evaluate the lack of promise of potential possibilities, ideas and undertakings - so I might as well make most of my talents. But believe me once I see an idea that truely works, I will not turn it down. Anyway we need more people to experiment with. You could always try polls to better see what works.

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    Default Re: From One Thing to Another

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    I haven't asked people to find the function they would like to possess, but the one that describes them the best. This is very important to bear in mind.
    I suppose I shall have to clarify myself: I am unable to choose between the two options you presented with reasonable reliability. I do not see the point of forcing the choise, as an almost arbitrary guess is only likely to give a false impression of confidence in my choise
    As you know I am an INTj

    Here is why I chose over :


    I have a strong sense of justice. I know well how to actively defend my principals. I am friendly. I am empathic to other people's problems. I will not let others down. I will help somebody who needs me.


    definately have no inclination to leadership. I hardly ever show self-confidence. I hardly ever defend myself.

    Maybe the following will help you:


    Do you set yourself important and far-reaching goals?
    Do you dislike wasting your energy on small, unimportant matters.
    Are you very flexible people? Can you adapt to changing situations?


    Do you apply strict factual logic?
    Do you make exact calculations in practical matters?
    Do you use financial resources rationally and economically?
    Dear Curious,

    What's your answer to the questions above?

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    Dear Curious

    Have you tried this?

    Compare the base function descriptions of ISTj and ISTp (ie your potential activity partners) to see which describes you better:


    The strongest element of ISTp's personality is an inexhaustible curiosity towards the phenomena of the surrounding world. They are interested in adventure/tourism, the juxtaposition of cultures and the study of nature and architecture. ISTp's fundamental need is comfort both in material and physical areas. They aspire to a harmonious, peaceful and healthy style of life. They also have a well-developed aesthetic taste.


    ISTjs are excellent at the detailed, meticulous and careful study of any situation. They are disciplined and responsible people and do not like to waste their words. They aspire to have everything ordered and well organised both at home and at work. They have respect for authority and feel perfectly comfortable obeying established norms and rules. ISTjs do not like any form of disorganisation and irresponsibility.

    If you choose then you are INFp otherwise if you choose you are INFj.

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    Default The Introspective Method

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Maybe the following will help you:


    Do you set yourself important and far-reaching goals?
    Do you dislike wasting your energy on small, unimportant matters.
    Are you very flexible people? Can you adapt to changing situations??
    I can say that I used to think of myself as this kind of a person, but when I try to observe myself with at least some degree of detached objectivity my limitations in these aspects do become apparent to me. I guess this was not what you wanted, but since you insist on asking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo

    Do you apply strict factual logic?
    Do you make exact calculations in practical matters?
    Do you use financial resources rationally and economically?
    Does anybody really make exact calculations in practical matters? What I can say is that for example based on reading my own posts it does appear to large extent to be the case that I at least try to apply strict factual logic. I have generally neither been spendthrift, so I guess I can say that this description could fit me somewhat better than the first one. Whether I can trust my own judgment is, however, a complicated question:

    Direct knowledge of the self may be severely limited, and we may come to know ourselves largely by observing our own behavior and then "inventing stories" that explain it. The frontal lobes help us construct these stories, and damage to them or their connections can either render us "selfless," or leave us unable to tell our "true" from our "false" selves.
    http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~dtg/psy1055.htm
    (I like this quote, having had to change my own type, I see the many pitfalls of the introspective method all too clearly.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Dear Curious

    Have you tried this?

    Compare the base function descriptions of ISTj and ISTp (ie your potential activity partners) to see which describes you better:


    The strongest element of ISTp's personality is an inexhaustible curiosity towards the phenomena of the surrounding world. They are interested in adventure/tourism, the juxtaposition of cultures and the study of nature and architecture. ISTp's fundamental need is comfort both in material and physical areas. They aspire to a harmonious, peaceful and healthy style of life. They also have a well-developed aesthetic taste.



    ISTjs are excellent at the detailed, meticulous and careful study of any situation. They are disciplined and responsible people and do not like to waste their words. They aspire to have everything ordered and well organised both at home and at work. They have respect for authority and feel perfectly comfortable obeying established norms and rules. ISTjs do not like any form of disorganisation and irresponsibility.

    If you choose then you are INFp otherwise if you choose you are INFj.
    Now you may actually be onto something. This description of the first function of ISTP does indeed appear to describe me much better, and it would seem to follow from the Quadra value theories etc. On the other hand this test only has validity if it fits INFPs as well - and somehow I just get the feeling that they might beg to disagree with this test...

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    Default

    Hip hip hooray

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    ISFj's strongest virtue is an ability to ethically evaluate others acts. They cannot tolerate injustice and malevolence in others. They have a strong sense of duty and ethics and also appreciate these qualities in other people. They also expect others to follow own conscience and accepted ethics. They know how to keep peoples attention and how to find interesting topics of conversation. ISFjs rarely make mistakes when evaluating how individuals relate to them.
    Yeah, I wish...

    I think all of this comparison is simply circumstantial.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Here is a potential activity partner base function description comparison below for INTx:


    ISFj's strongest virtue is an ability to ethically evaluate others acts. They cannot tolerate injustice and malevolence in others. They have a strong sense of duty and ethics and also appreciate these qualities in other people. They also expect others to follow own conscience and accepted ethics. They know how to keep peoples attention and how to find interesting topics of conversation. ISFjs rarely make mistakes when evaluating how individuals relate to them.


    The strongest element of ISFp's character is their ability to find pastimes that fill their life with joy and happiness. They are irreplaceable when it comes to organising leisure time and entertainment. They are in their creative element when surrounded by beauty, a warm atmosphere, good company and good food. They really know how to enjoy life. ISFps prefer spending their leisure time with friends, family and among nature rather than in more physical activities.

    If you choose you are INTp. If you choose you are INTj

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    I must disagree with you on that! I think the one thing that gave that whole +/- thing validity was the similarities noted between a type and the qualities of the same consciousness members of the anti-quadra like INTJ and ISFJ being -/-

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    But Pedro and Cone, does it (i.e. the and thing, to do with potential activity partners) work for you?

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    No, it doesn't. I can see myself in both, albeit very, very distantly.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Default Selyutin+/-

    Do you buy into the Selyutin model - for example the type descriptions at this site you get generated by computer if you choose to try them.

    According to that model INTJs have the ISFJ ego-block as their super-ego block, and INTPs have ISFP ego-block as their super-ego (and INFJs have ISTJ in their super ego).

    Thus when demonstrating their role function to strangers, INTJs show little emotions like ISFJs (-Fi) and are prone to sharp ethical judgments - whereas INTPs in initial contact try to create physical comforts to their guests like ISFPs (+Si) etc.

    The model would seem to be largely accurate based on my observations, says the INFJ who comes across as ISTJ...

    ***EDIT***

    A silly typo corrected, INTPs of course demonstrate +Si introverted sensing.

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    Default Re: Selyutin+/-

    Hi, CuriousSoul,

    whereas INTPs in initial contact try to create physical comforts to their guests like ISFPs (+Se) etc.
    Do you mean INTps like hugs?

    I am not sure if I like it, I mean I don't like it! But then usually I will not act "rude" if hugs are absolutely necessary.

    But then, god knows if I am a true INTp?!
    *--*----[Viv]----*--*
    The ENTp Chinese Roast Duck

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    Default Functions and Attitudes

    Hi VivPhilos

    Well, perhaps not quite hugs, but if you are INTP it would be rather something like baking a cake to visitors, asking if they feel comfortable, hungry, thirsty etc.
    Whereas INTJs try to look cold to strangers so that they would not reveal their true emotions.

    Thus INTJs demonstrate -Fi
    Negative (long range):
    Bad attitudes — hatred, enmity, antipathy, pushing away, estrangement, the unsociability, a far psychological distance, angrily, ruthlessness.


    Whereas INTPs demonstrate +Si
    Positive(short range):
    Pleasant sensations, comfort, convenience, harmony, beauty, appeal, rest, health, slackness, good state of health, pleasure, pleasure, sensitivity;



    On the other hand when (or if you are lucky enough) to get to know them better you should find that the types have different attitudes to various things...
    Thus INTP belong to:

    Gulenko's Erotic Attitudes
    Victim Group
    Woman


    An ideal of such woman - physically strong the man, reminding supermen from the American insurgents. She wishes to test on herself its force, to resist to his impact, to feel a victim. In love games prefers the different forms of an antagonism kindling passion of the partner. In women of this type are at times immanently inherent masochistic features. The truth is far from being all from them give itself in it the report.
    http://www.the16types.info/groups.php?groupid=19


    If you are INTJ again you have a different attitude:

    Infantile
    Woman


    The ideal of this woman is kind and skilled, well adapted by a life the man, is usually more senior than her on age. At the presence of such men she feels the little girl, almost in all dependent from him. In love game the preference gives the psychological factor - to a heart-to-heart talk, having music, creation of conditions for a relaxation. Above all appreciates condescension and care.
    http://www.the16types.info/groups.php?groupid=20


    Of course most people would laugh at these descriptions, but there is something to them....

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    Default Re: Functions and Attitudes

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Well, perhaps not quite hugs
    Thanks Curious, I realized that later, after I posted my question - I misunderstood your message due to my stupid English (I am not a native English speaker, you see).

    but if you are INTP it would be rather something like baking a cake to visitors, asking if they feel comfortable, hungry, thirsty etc.
    This is very TRUE for me!

    Whereas INTJs try to look cold to strangers so that they would not reveal their true emotions.
    Not sure I should go to any INTj's homes anymore!

    Thus INTJs demonstrate -Fi
    Negative (long range):
    Bad attitudes — hatred, enmity, antipathy, pushing away, estrangement, the unsociability, a far psychological distance, angrily, ruthlessness.


    Whereas INTPs demonstrate +Si
    Positive(short range):
    Pleasant sensations, comfort, convenience, harmony, beauty, appeal, rest, health, slackness, good state of health, pleasure, pleasure, sensitivity;
    See... thanks... Let's staying being an INTp (at least for a while! )

    Thus INTP belong to:

    Gulenko's Erotic Attitudes
    Victim Group
    Woman


    An ideal of such woman - physically strong the man, reminding supermen from the American insurgents. She wishes to test on herself its force, to resist to his impact, to feel a victim. In love games prefers the different forms of an antagonism kindling passion of the partner. In women of this type are at times immanently inherent masochistic features. The truth is far from being all from them give itself in it the report.
    http://www.the16types.info/groups.php?groupid=19

    If you are INTJ again you have a different attitude:

    Infantile
    Woman


    The ideal of this woman is kind and skilled, well adapted by a life the man, is usually more senior than her on age. At the presence of such men she feels the little girl, almost in all dependent from him. In love game the preference gives the psychological factor - to a heart-to-heart talk, having music, creation of conditions for a relaxation. Above all appreciates condescension and care.
    http://www.the16types.info/groups.php?groupid=20
    Thanks again for the ref.

    This is getting exciting, never thought about this before. I will see whether these are true thru future observation.

    But in general, INTps seem "warmer" people than INTjs, is that right?
    *--*----[Viv]----*--*
    The ENTp Chinese Roast Duck

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    I've come up with something else. Say you are INTx, choose the one that describes you the better:


    The strongest element of ISFp's character is their ability to find pastimes that fill their life with joy and happiness. They are irreplaceable when it comes to organising leisure time and entertainment. They are in their creative element when surrounded by beauty, a warm atmosphere, good company and good food. They really know how to enjoy life. ISFps prefer spending their leisure time with friends, family and among nature rather than in more physical activities.


    ESFp's strongest virtues are resolution and enterprise. Their type of personality often possesses an inclination to leadership. They are not afraid to take leadership when a global task is involved. They always show self-confidence, even in the most adverse situations. They know well how to defend themselves and their reputation against unjust accusations. ESFps take an active interest in the welfare of their families, helping if necessary.

    If you choose you are INTj. If you choose you are INTp.

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