Originally Posted by applejacks
this is exactly what the IEE who I took to see John Wick said, "I haven't watched TV or movies in 3 months, and seeing this now has literally made me sick"
this is exactly what the IEE who I took to see John Wick said, "I haven't watched TV or movies in 3 months, and seeing this now has literally made me sick"
I think I should not get my silly text antics validated.
Detached can be good. I hope it's a good detached. <3
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
It's a weird detached, something I did to myself mostly on purpose I think. Basically, I got hurt, so I went in a opposite strategy direction than I did in the situation I got hurt. This has made my life a little crazier and staying pulled back emotionally has come more naturally.I think I should not get my silly text antics validated.
Detached can be good. I hope it's a good detached. <3
Can't tell yet if it's good. But I'm trying new things, so that part is good. And I'm discovering things about others and myself. Yay learning!
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
This came to me at random and not sure why I feel like sharing it, but was thinking about my mother and how she'd temporarily lost her ability to speech when she'd got ill and the massive vacuum that that creates in communication and how shocking it was for something so commonplace as communicating through language to have vanished just like that.
Good description of what its like. My Mom's Alzheimer's made her lose her sensible speech for several years. Yes, it really was like a massive vacuum. All the time. We just had to live with the presence of this huge vacuum all the time. We had to focus on the effort it took for the little commonplace things, and the rewards were small, like when she would smile, or be in a good mood, or like the exceptionally rare times she used my name. Also she retained good manners and good speech/elocution that would come through at times. The hospice aides noticed her manners, and my husband was sharp to her elocution and vocabulary, in those very rare times she said something other than the very few things she repeated everyday, all day. After she died and we remembered the days and her life before Alzheimer's, and also compared her to her older sister who did not have this problem, and we wondered what it would have been like for her, all these years, if she didn't have it. That was a vacuum. And yet, even though she lost so much, she left a vacuum when she died. Just her presence was powerful, and missed, even though she was utterly helpless and seemed to no one like herself in those last years - still, in spite of all, her presence was herself, and her presence is missed.
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
Stuff I am doing...
Its 3 important funerals now... the latest, my ex's mom, out of town... Everything at once.
My focus is on house projects. My husband built me the bathroom closet of shelves I wanted. I painted it. A lot of paint for a lot of shelves. 3 layers of paint with sanding in between. It still needs the door, which I will paint when we put it up. There was no room for this in the small bathroom, so he cut a hole in the wall across from the bathroom door, borrowing room from the guest room closet.. it now looks very professional, and just like the other doorways. I used my favored good paint and I love it. And it was great to gather the things I stashed into 3 different rooms and now have them all organized in one sensible, accessible place.
My husband is using a new computer program my son installed to design our next dream project... a 10x20 shed. That is the limit for it not to affect our taxes. The plan he is working with now is for it to have a basement on the hill, half buried, half open in order for that to be the actual shed entry, at patio level, and the top to be a multi-purpose room for other budding ideas, like a workshop and an art barn... with lofts. Yes, we have big ideas for small spaces! But, my neighbor just explained to us that she thinks it has to not have a permanent foundation to be a non-taxable shed. So we probably need to change the design to be a concrete post-type foundation to fit that criteria, and build a smaller shed elsewhere in the yard because we still need a shed. We are creating it in such a way we can later add spray-foam insulation so it can be a year-round room. This is all brainstorming at this stage because we cannot over-extend ourselves, so we are starting with our ideal ideas. That includes a cupola at the top to let light in from above:
and maybe a dormer... I want charm but we have to do that selectively, to keep it simple, to look like it belongs with our house (even if we paint it a different color). A lot of the charm can come from proportions, vs. extra add-ons. (The cupola is an extra add-on but my husband will enjoy that piece of it). My husband and I enjoy designing together, even though I must say my design contribution is more like, "I love this!" and, "I really want this!" and, "It would look better if we did it like this..."- my husband has all the building knowledge and skill and is learning to use this new better updated computer program than the one he used for the rest of the house. It takes us a very long time to finalize a design, but we are both very satisfied when we get to that point. We will need help with foundation footings, but he does the rest., I assist with things like keeping tools in order and organized, something he sorely needs help with. I also do almost all the painting. Generally not ceilings! and high-up eaves! But everything else, and especially if its fussy or detailed. Also caulking. I am the caulking queen. I do not like gaps.
I am currently working on the interior of the 10x20 room we have worked on over a year. Its full of windows with divided lights, and doors with same, and all need interior paint, and I am putting green frog tape around all the divisions and will prime and put on two coats of good paint, sanding and tacky-cloth between each coat. Its a priority before we get too many bugs because I need screens out and windows open to do it. Then I will paint the bookcases, window bench and walls and all cupboard interiors - there are many, all waiting for doors to be created, but my husband may wait to build them until the barn-shed is built, so he can do the work comfortably in there... (we do not have any garage or shed and the basement is not a suitable work place).
This week I am also designing the balustrades for the portico, the only part of that left undone at this point, and when he has time, my son will cut in his Dad's workshop.
And tomorrow a landscape architect comes in the morning early. I am so excited because I have long dreamed of getting advice for this yard. Our yard is very rough but has potential, and I am stumped on some things. This is a free service, so we will have to buy plants from his business in thanks. I really need his suggestions on what to plant where. I have a rough overall plan for the yard and would like to here his thoughts on it. I am anxious to start this year with the screening plants, in order to create, eventually when shrubs and trees grow, screening for privacy in the yard... especially in the backyard. Woods are directly in back, but I would like to look around on either side and not see any neighbors houses, giving the illusion its our own private wild place. There are just a few spots that need plantings to achieve that, and I want them to be easy-care and fast growing, sort of naturalized-looking. Also since his nursery makes fountains and ponds, I want to ask if my little naturalized rock shallow plunge pool (ideally with also a man-made "waterfall" going in to it) is a do-able idea, or just one of my fancies....
This idea all came about because if we were going to dig a shed basement, or level out some land for the shed-barn, and dig for the footings, then we may as well at the same time have the equipment-people dig in the places we will do plantings and paths... So, I need estimates to find out if my ideas are overboard.
I just came on to Delta Lounge to find my pic of the rock pool in the "3 Romantic Places" thread here, where I posted "My Dream Garden". I am going to email him that and some other ideas from that thread... so I am going to hurry along to that now...
I really like this one (its 14x24 and ours would be 10x20):
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
The landscape guy gave lots of good ideas. He suggests rhododendron and mountain laurel for my screening plants, and I am going with that. Before he left I asked him to come look at the house from the front, asking him what suggestion he might have for curb appeal. (I am a big fan of curb appeal, but have been stumped for our house over what it "needs"). I was thinking foundation plantings, which are sorely needed - my husband never planted anything after he removed the ancient thorny foundation barberries years ago . But, after agreeing with my dogwood idea, which he said should be central, vs. to-the-side, like I was thinking, he offered an idea of his own. He thinks a rock retaining wall a few feet out from the road, leaving a level mowing stretch close to the road, and "raising" the lawn above it with the retaining wall, making the lawn much more level above, would be the very thing. My husband agrees this is a good idea. At this point the lawn is a somewhat steep drop, very bumpy, with a valley divot in the center, and so hard to mow or even walk on. I had already asked about a load of dirt and re-seeding to level it out and make it easier for my husband to mow, which is quite a job on this lawn. But this would make it so pretty besides also making it more level and more sane to mow. And then when I remembered a favorite of mine - a rock wall with a picket fence on it! - I was sleepless over this possibility!
especially because that is the perfect growing location for climbing roses! So picturesque!
I would so much like to make this happen!
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
I canceled my Netflix today. After this whole "13 Reasons Why" was released, I felt obligated to cancel.
As a music teacher to kids, and as someone who dearly loves kids and takes suicide seriously, I cannot personally justify spending money towards a company that creates their own series which glamorizes teen suicide. I use that term "glamorize" seriously, because the show does nothing to point to alternative ways of receiving help.
I continue to feel upset with what is on our TVs, and what kids have access to at such young ages.
I'm of course not condemning people for using Netflix. I'm just expressing my grief at what we qualify and view as "entertainment."
And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30
Well, that is a very good reason to cancel Netflix. I need to seriously consider doing the same.
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
Even if I don't have Netflix I've heard similar criticisms which again discourage me to get Netflix in the first place. I can only chime in here after what I've heard, it's pretty bad.
Condemn the creators, Netflix itself, and the users that demand these shows. When it comes to willful ignorance among consumers it's more difficult to say. But either way yeah just cancel that's the good way, hopefully others will follow so it's important to spread this message.
Snippets:
new ILI in one of my activities, endearing almost yet so annoying lol.
LSE advised me against bringing up a certain 'inappropriate' topic in conversation with certain people on account of what the conversation might turn into (and wanting to avoid me being objectified as main motivation behind their advice)
Summer has yet to express itself fully.
/over and out
Is "being objectified" the same as being an objective?
Because, while I wouldn't want to be treated as an object, I wouldn't mind being treated as an objective.
but from my point of view I'm not going to die if someone comes after me (and like Adam, I don't mind, at least not in principle)
I think in general though its better to love than be loved (and the true point of "romance"), which is what I take Osho to be getting at (appreciation over possession). besides if loving meant never engaging the other person, how would two people ever realize mutual love for one another? it would be like looking through a glass door but never opening it, and I don't think either side would want that for themselves or the other person
Seeing another person as an objective makes it about your own ego, emotional needs, and seductive accomplishments, and less about them. I've gone thru a lot of pain to be kinda trained into seeing it this way tho so I don't expect everybody to. It's less interesting and sexy
Why is it less about them?
An ambition is something personal.
i feel like its pretty much the spirit in which you do it in
without love its all a swindle, but with love you can pursue someone in a way that isn't all about you. in other words, objective doesn't necessarily mean objectify, it simply may be desire, which is ok. most the time it may be selfish desire, but sometimes its desire based on appreciation (pure). its more like go after the person if they are open to it, or let them go if they're not. if the flower wants to be picked its okay. even if it dies if you pick it if it wants to be picked its ok. loving someone almost ensures a measure of pain because we all die eventually. you "pick" the other person you're bound to cause pain when it ends, as it must. but its okay, because love is two people saying "I will take this on--because I love!"
love is in some sense a suicide pact
better to have loved and lost then to stay hands off out of fear of what is inevitable anyway
I've been reading Shakespeare lately and I feel like he got it in a way that I'm just now starting to understand, even though he veiled it in a lot of idiom for the masses
I don't think I disagree with this, at least not overall with the spirit of it. I've been lying in bed half awake trying to think of how to add nuance to what I'm saying since you made the comment about never engaging because that wasn't what I meant. I mean I suppose there's a scale between self serving possession and floaty nonengagement. But if I referred to a loved one as an objective I feel like I would be subordinating them to my desire and it would be disrespectful. I think its interesting that I learned to reevaluate how I approach these things based on experiences with Ni bases who are supposed to want to be "taken" or whatever, but I guess they're also the ones who enforce some temperance.
Also I prefer to think of "love as a suicide pact" as a folly of the young, remedied by conceiving of relationships as friendships foremost. But I havent really discovered the balance for myself yet.
I need to stop getting into interesting forum conversations before bed lol. My not fully functioning brain won't turn off.
I think there might be a distinction between romance and relationship that's getting lost. I could say, "you're my objective, I'm going to make you mine," and that could be exciting. But if I behave over the course of the relationship in a way that attempts to force the person where I want them and subordinate them to myself, any self respecting person will resist (maybe even if they want the same things, because their autonomy isn't being respected).
Goodnight I swear to God
I feel like its a suicide pact in the sense that it entails inevitable pain of loss, because by loving another person you've inviting them to "pluck" you, and if taken up on it, you gurantee the death of your individual possibilities without that person and essentially seal your fate in the sense that if its true love its forever even if its only inside of you and thats an irrevocable thing that changes the shape of your life in a way you can't really go back on which means the death of a lot of possibilities and the assurance that at some point you will have to face down the loss of the other or cause said loss to the other (not sure which is worse, not that it matters), in that sense you're both agreeing to die to yourselves in some sense by loving the other and that is a suicide pact. the whole romeo and juliet thing I think was a way shakes could slip it in there almost like a parable but at the same time that was self aware and ironic
I also get what you're saying that in framing it in terms of objective it feels like the love is lost (or never was). thus such a frame of mind precludes by its nature the reciprocity and selflessness that is required to love in the way we've been talking. I'm not sure it is for Adam, but I imagine for people of your depth it would be, but you know that so you don't do it. I feel like people love as much as they can and inasmuch as there's a goodhearted LIE out there, they probably think of it in those terms, but with all the love they can muster and inasmuch as that's the case I think its pure. the problem is when people know better and don't, but I can handle someone learning or being where they are. I think loving someone else is knowing their love is imperfect but loving them anyway so it can grow and trusting that even though they're not there yet they at least have the potential to be. i think sometimes we love a persons potential and that is loving them, not loving them exclusively for their potential but more like having faith in them
I don't know, Adam. LSE might have intel that i don't but that isn't willing to share lol.
But, Te takes pity too. It is most strange, like i feel like i need to protect it somehow from the world. I dunno how to put it.
I think ILE is kidding with you only because you are a supervisor
“Love is authentic only when it gives freedom. Let this be the criterion. Love is true only when it does not interfere in the privacy of the other person. It respects his individuality, his privacy. But the lovers that you see around the world, their whole effort is that nothing should be private; all secrets should be told to them. They are afraid of individuality…” Osho
Picking a flower interferes with its individuality...its freedom.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I feel like I am only now in a place to truly embrace this (which is ironic because I want this freedom and individuality for myself, but used to get anxiety-riddled and insecure when someone else claimed this). I credit amazing friends for this because as I moved through the dating gauntlet, they were there to hear me out, vent my frustrations, work through my hang-ups and, most importantly, they made sure that I understood that whatever happened was not a matter of me being "not being good enough/pretty enough/interesting enough," etc. I relied on my friends for validation, not men (but it was a process).
Now, for the first time, I am dating someone in a way that lets things unfold rather than wondering and analyzing. I am not rushed, anxious, or insecure (except for the occasional residual stuff, in which case I take a bottle of wine to a friend's house and talk it through). I don't need him to validate me. I just enjoy knowing him, getting to know him, and spending time with him; and I am more honest with myself when it comes to things that annoy me about him.
It also makes me all the more conscious of how women are conditioned to please and how conditioned men are to take the lead. American dating culture is horribly patriarchal, artificial, and counter-productive.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Reading this made me feel a bit giddy. Lots of.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Reading this made me feel a bit giddy. Lots of
It's certainly not easy because there is a strong connection that felt very intense too soon. So we both scaled back a bit. It does not feel natural to me, but I can't have the distraction of more emotional turmoil currently. Too much work.It does feel nice to not be constantly freaked out and confused.
I am getting LOTS of pentacles for this one. King of Pentacles three times (for one or three card readings). And that is not a suit that I associate with myself.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Dark media can be good though, since sometimes life is dark and it's good to have processed those kinds of things ahead of time so you don't break. There's also this kind of distance between perceiving a threat and knowing it isn't dangerous called benign masochism that is a sign of human beings' categorically better intellect. When Hollywood makes light stuff, it tends to be escapist and sappy and horrible, so I'm going to say that the problem is with Hollywood sucking in the very fibres of its being rather than it having to do with what particular kind of content Hollywood attempts to produce at any given time. #cultureindustry
The past few weeks have been so incredible on so many fronts:
- I recently recorded my first demo album with our band, mostly as a gift for my dad. But I was really happy with how it turned out, despite our group being mostly amateur musicians.
- Our band worked on some new songs during practice this evening, and we took some creative and unexpectedly awesome turns. I'm hoping to get those recorded soon, too. It's exciting when a group of musicians can find the creative zone together. It's like magic.
- I fall more in love with my husband every day, even as we go through ups and downs. For this, Im overwhelmed in thankfulness.
And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30
Forget Socionics, I just read this and feel so busted...
Aquarius People: What They’re Like
Aquarius is the sign of friendship and teamwork, so Aquarians tend to be more focused on the group than the individual. Freedom is important to Aquarians, which is why they like to keep things light on an interpersonal level. That way, they won’t feel bad about running off to the opposite corner of the world at a moment’s notice. At times, this nomadic strategy backfires, leaving them lonely and disconnected. Aquarians are uncomfortable with too much intimacy. These free spirits belong to the world, and feel off-balance giving their considerable energy to just one person. While their friends get first-class treatment, families and lovers see a different side of Aquarius: moody, brooding, anxious and neurotic. Or they may pick one (and only one) person to open up to, getting attached to the point of obsession. Learning to accept and express their emotions can help Aquarius people avoid the massive freakouts and anger flashes that come from pretending everything’s cool when it isn’t. Aquarians appreciate a quirky or eccentric twist and have some colorful characters and countercultural personalities as friends.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
this is tangentially related to the conversation between @lungs and @Bertrand, and that osho quote is by far one of my favorites. I think the idea here is that you desire autonomy and authenticity in your relationships. it loses its value if it's forced, similar to how you can't force two puzzle pieces together if they don't fit, it's why victory doesn't taste as sweet if you had to fall back on cheats, maybe it grants you temporary satisfaction to buy a bouquet of flowers from the local super market, but it pales in comparison to the satisfaction you feel after planting a seed and carefully tending to it for months before it blooms into a beautiful tulip. it needs to progress naturally, that's what it's about, it's ultimately about creating value. there's an innate communication barrier between males and females as is, but it's amplified once closer contact is established, we don't always feel comfy being our true selves because it puts us at risk lowering our desirability in the eyes of our partner. we dilute and distort our expression so as to make "us" easier to stomach, but, in doing so, we bastardize our "essence", we cease to embrace who we are, instead we embody what we think will get us what (who) we want, and the "object" (it really is a gross word, isn't it?) of our affection returns the disfavor. I could set out a trap to capture a wild animal, or I could lay out a bowl of food and water, if the animal decides that's what it wants, then I'm happy, but if it would rather roam free, then that's alright, too, because it's not about me. I don't want this arbitrary label we've slapped on our arrangement to alter your speech or behavior, just act as if you would if I wasn't figuratively "attached" to you, just be you. "I do my thing, you do your thing, you are you and I am I, and if in the end we end up together, it's beautiful."
I have to say, barbecue is a revelationI'm currently on holiday enjoying the weather here in the South and I can finally sleep a lot, I missed this.
totally, people try to be something they're not in order to get what they want losing sight of the fact that in order to keep it they have to continue selling themselves out, which is not what anyone really "wants", least of all your partner
obviously sometimes you make real improvements on the basis of growth in a relationship and that's not what i mean here, real growth is possible only when it comes first from a position of the "real" self acting it out, because when its just a ploy you easily "slip out from under" or forget any lessons you may have "learned" because they were performed under false pretenses (in other words, you can snap back to your true self and be like, "well none of that really applies now"). of course, sometimes even acts done for the wrong reasons return valuable lessons learned, but they tend to be existential lessons militating to the point at discussion here and not really specifically applicable lessons that flow from genuine engagement--rather they're admonishments to get back on that path so that you might start to learn all those, real, more direct, lessons, etc
all this is why "trapping" another person with fakery is a bad idea, because you're essentially only wasting everyone's (yourself included) time. better to be authentically someone who isn't liked by all than wasting your time being something you're not trying to maintain the approval of someone who only sticks by fake you only for as long as you're fake. its like what's the point of all that? honestly, I do think most people "get that" its just what that looks like looks different between different people
I know a lot of what is perceived as "being fake" could more accurately be called "genuinely wanting people to feel good about their interaction." a lot of times, just because its not how I would manage a situation it is easy to assume the other person isn't honestly engaging and rather playing some kind of game, but I feel like that is kind of rare in actuality. most people are doing the best they can with what they've got. if anything, they're not managing the situation well not because they're "fake" but because they're just not very adept at reading things [1]... I think in this way Fe can criticize Fi and vice versa but ultimately its when people manage to see and understand that the opposing pole of the same function generally wants the same things they just go about it from the opposite direction, hence it is easy to attribute fault because it feels like they're missing the fundamentals but both sides tend to see that in the other and both are both right and wrong about that [2]...
I'm not attributing any of this positions I'm clarifying to you (what I mean is I'm not saying you do any of this, rather I notice it in myself); these are just my own thoughts to myself, brought on by your very interesting-to-me post
its actually all very complex because I feel like both Fi and Fe are valid and consistent approaches but they also tend to misunderstand eachother which then can lead to conflict. I know sometimes Ill do things that are basically fake but its not fake inasmuch as I very much care more about the result than the authenticity of the thing in that moment, which sounds like I'm just going back on everything I just said, but I want to say its predicated on a cost-benefit analysis wherein the stakes are not "long term relationship" or "status of my soul" but basically trivialities. I think in some sense that's the merit in being flexible and being able to use both approaches in that each has their domain wherein they are most effective. In other words, I feel like I can "be professional" and the social equivalent "polite/pleasant, even" when its useful to do so. But when it comes to engaging in relationships over time, authenticity must absolutely be the cornerstone. In fact I think time is the determining factor most often, which is to say when people "get it wrong" i.e. are "fake" its because they're misunderstanding the time component and using the wrong approach to the issue at hand, i.e.: being fake in long term relationships and being authentic to a fault in absolutely temporary circumstances (selfish). in the latter it costs almost nothing to "give of yourself" and in the former its "asking too much"--these are all failures we attribute to "moral fault" that are really essentially miscalculations of time... each side is quick to point out the mistakes of the other while often remaining blind to their own overly rigid applications of their preferred principle...
[1] in other words they lack the assiduity or competence to genuinely create pleasant experience so fall back on genuinely being unpleasant
[2] this results in constant disputes over what is primary and what should rightfully flow as a byproduct of "virtue"--should people feel good because they're being authentic or should people be authentically striving to improve feelings, etc
Last edited by Bertrand; 07-03-2017 at 06:31 PM.
@Bertrand it took me a solid hour to flesh out my thoughts there, it felt a lot like grasping at words in a hazy cloud, meanwhile you typed out a post thrice as long as mine in the span of ~30 minutes. I tried skimming through it, but I kept losing track of my spot. can you TL;DR dat shit for me, bwoi?
it is somewhat intertwined with being fake but it seems self-preservatory in nature. all written/verbal expression is filtered through a lens of sorts before it's finally written/verbalized, but it's more like societal expectations revolving around gender roles that have been passed down through the ages, unrealistic expectations that have been perpetuated time and time again through film and literature, which obstructs open and honest communication in romantic settings. it's as if couples run every thought of theirs through a broken translator (how do I translate this from "boy" to "girl"?) in order to pander to their partner's unspoken fantasies, but they lose their identities on the road to compromise. there's this middle-ground that they refuse to touch because to touch it means to break their personally-conceived illusions in relation to themselves, their partner, and the status and quality of their relationship. it's just so risky, like I could tell my girlfriend that I watch porn, that no, I don't think she's the most beautiful girl in the world, and that yeah, she was being a cunt yesterday, but what if she breaks up with me? what if unbridled honesty results in loneliness? that's the lack of authenticity I can't get on board with, it's like there's this tantalizing smoke screen between myself and my partner whenever tiptoeing rears its ugly head.
I wouldn't say it's conscious manipulation either, that'd be a bit of stretch, I think it's mostly a function people trying too hard to adhere to societal expectations of what an ideal partner/relationship should be, which strays from my initial point, but alas. lemme know if I completely missed the point of your post because you talk a lot and half the time I feel like you purposefully create a maze of words with no real meaning behind them to tempt people into going on a wild goose chase for a ghost. my coworker just asked me why I keep squinting at my phone screen, and I responded, "Bertrand rants."
(that isn't a knock at you btw. I think you write beautifully, but complex wording and high-brow concepts make my brain ouch.)
Last edited by wasp; 07-03-2017 at 08:37 PM.
Your guys's posts have me ruminating once again about my own stance towards relationships lately. I don't know if I'll ever come to any sort of satisfactory conclusions and I guess life will just end up deciding for me. I've come to see that it's impossible for me to be in any sort of significant relationship, especially a romantic one, without experiencing massive internal shifts. I don't experience it as pandering or inauthenticity, at least not over the long term which would be impossible to maintain. I just actually become a different person as a consequence of merging with someone else. Sometimes it's for the better but it's impossible to predict at the outset, or before it happens. At this point I feel like I've come so far and any future relationship seems like a potential sacrifice of the gains I've made. Especially in heterosexual romantic relationships where I usually get the implicit sense that I'm supposed to concede some strength and self determination in order to affirm the man's masculinity and I feel that as a loss to myself. I've had this idea in my head for so long about creating a life with one other person and I'm ambivalent now about whether that's something I want and if the idea of going without it creates some anxiety because it's actually what I need or because it's what every social message has been telling me is the purpose of my life since childhood. I'm in a sort of nontraditional relationship right now wherein I retain my own separate life - which has still changed me, no question, but I feel like the change is more on my own terms - and I've never experienced a romantic relationship that has felt so... good? (I mean that in like, a spiritual kind of way, like a purity, not necessarily happiness units or something) And now of course there's this nagging everpresent question of whether the goodness I feel is a result of the merging that my future self might see as sacrificial or if it's a reflection of my authentic needs. And I don't know how many regrets I'll have later.
Last edited by ashlesha; 07-03-2017 at 08:32 PM.
I can understand this hesitation. Similar to what was being discussed in the Deltas & Traditions thread, I was always hesitant to get involved in a relationship unless my values aligned with my partner's- for the precise reason that you mentioned- it's a merging of two people.
"The two become one flesh" as God says. Or "you are forever responsible for what you have tamed" as The Little Prince says- two favorite quotes and philosophies when it comes to attaching yourself to someone intimately.
At the end of the day, I always tell my friends- "want to see how selfish you are? Get married." Which can only be expanded when adding kids. I say that not to discourage, but to explain that love- true love - does not seek its own good, but the good of others. And I believe much of a relationship is a laying down of one's selfish interests for the sake of loving the other in peace, kindness, and service.
And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30
tl;dr: time component is where Fi and Fe tend to make mistakes, or misunderstand, and criticize each other; same for Ti and Te
what is an emotion but a fleeting relationship and what is a relationship but an enduring emotion..? when people treat them as otherwise you get "fakery" and "selfishness" from an ethical standpoint
in other words, from a pragmatic standpoint, an Fi approach to a short term encounter is often viewed as innapropriate and thus labeled "selfish", whereas an Fe approach to a longer term relationship is considered "fake." obviously there is a lot more nuance to the specifics but in general I believe its the unstated moral consideration of the time component that leads to one denigrating the other, when the truth is more like they each have their proper domain from the point of view of usefulness. generally speaking ethicals implicitly understand at least some of this and tend to flex as required but borderline cases bring a lot of conflict over priorities and I think logicals, especially ones with a feeling PoLR tend to over rely on one and get into ethical trouble. the same holds true with ethical types acting within the logical realm
this is a great description of how other people experience Ni Ti... for what its worth I know my shits basically incomprehensible but I try my best and I get a lot of value out of just hammering it out anyway. I appreciate your honesty and like it because it I know its truehalf the time I feel like you purposefully create a maze of words with no real meaning behind them to tempt people into going on a wild goose chase for a ghost
I feel this is where feminism possesses a real nugget of truth which is that it is not fair that society tilts this way, but I do think it sets the stage for finding a truly meaingful relationship because when you find the person that does not force you into this dynamic you will know it is a product of free choice and not societal conditioning hence it will only make you love and appreciate them more. this also entails the risk however that it may never come to pass, which like all forms of non-being provides the meaning and context for real being, so it is both our blessing and curse
in the end being true to yourself is the only thing you can really do, as far as I can tell... worrying about outcomes in this way is trying to control more than is possible and distracts from the things we can control and harms us inasmuch as it prevents us from being our best self
I also think the world may surprise you if you make good on this side of your responsibility, but that is essentially an article of faith
faith hope and love
Last edited by Bertrand; 07-03-2017 at 09:57 PM.
lmao I just came across some of your posts on another thread and now I'm dying of laughter. I'll respond later today once I've calmed down.time component is where Fi and Fe tend to make mistakes, or misunderstand, and criticize each other; same for Ti and Te
what is an emotion but a fleeting relationship and what is a relationship but an enduring emotion..? when people treat them as otherwise you get "fakery" and "selfishness" from an ethical standpoint
(you too, lungs)
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