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Thread: IJs (particularly Se creatives): I need your help

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Default IJs (particularly Se creatives): I need your help

    I'm trying to type my girlfriend and it's a real bitch to do.

    I've pretty much decided that she's a definite IJ. My initial instinct was that she was an ESI (I even considered EII at one point, but I think this is very unlikely), then I opened that up to Se creative in general; so LSI and ESI. I've also considered LII, but some of her behaviours are in conflict with this.

    The reason I'm in doubt about her being Se creative is because she's not great at making decisions (generally on a basic level, like whether to have wine or lager), and I can't imagine a bad decision-maker who has Se in their ego - basically the only reason I think she's not Se ego. At the same time, she says stuff like "deal with it", "take some initiative' and "fucking get on with it" (not to me, haha, just in general e.g. if she's telling a story or something) in a very Se manner.

    The reason I think she is ESI > LSI is because she refuses to debate with me. She doesn't argue at all, in fact. This is one of the things that actually led me to believe she might be a Ne/Si type. (But I still see Se there, which is why I went for ESI over any other type. However, I've also considered SEI for her.) Fundamentally, though, I think it's because she doesn't like my Ti.

    However, I doubt ESI because her tastes in comedy are basically Alpha. She loves Curb Your Enthusiasm and has said of Larry David (ILE) that she "wishes he was my friend". What kind of ESI wants their conflictor to be their friend?

    So I have some questions for Se creatives.

    1) Are you/could you be bad decision makers ever?
    2) Are there times you won't argue, and why won't you argue at these times?
    3) Do you like what is described as "Alpha" comedy e.g. Curb, Trailer Park Boys, Flight of the Concords etc.?

    If you are IJ and have any general comments about this/questions to see if you feel affinity with her or whatever so you can go "definitely not EII" or something, please go for it.

    Oh yeah, I've pretty much decided that she's a definite One - or a very small off-chance she's an 8w9. Most likely One (I s'pose that doesn't help much since all IJs can potentially be Ones).
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Azeroffs's Avatar
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    "deal with it", "take some initiative' and "fucking get on with it"

    I think it would be unusual for an EII to act like this. Can you explain a typical scenario when this happens?
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    3) Do you like what is described as "Alpha" comedy e.g. Curb, Trailer Park Boys, Flight of the Concords etc.?
    Trailer Park Boys is Alpha? Ugh. I may have to secede from my own Quadra.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    The reason I'm in doubt about her being Se creative is because she's not great at making decisions (generally on a basic level, like whether to have wine or lager)
    As for this exact situation I can imagine myself not making a decision just for the sake of politeness and asking what the other person wants to. Wine or lager also not a very big decision to make....Maybe she didn't really cared which one?
    I mean this sort of decisions you should leave for Si egos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    The reason I'm in doubt about her being Se creative is because she's not great at making decisions (generally on a basic level, like whether to have wine or lager), and I can't imagine a bad decision-maker who has Se in their ego - basically the only reason I think she's not Se ego. At the same time, she says stuff like "deal with it", "take some initiative' and "fucking get on with it" (not to me, haha, just in general e.g. if she's telling a story or something) in a very Se manner.
    I wonder if this may be TeNi seeking behavior, as in, could it be that her indecisiveness about some things is due to not knowing what will have the best results...?
    I would imagine ESI's would ask for a lot of input, as well as, ask themselves a lot of questions to make sure that they're making the right/best decision

    In spite of her taste for Alpha things, does she like anything that could be considered Gamma?
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    "deal with it", "take some initiative' and "fucking get on with it"

    I think it would be unusual for an EII to act like this. Can you explain a typical scenario when this happens?
    Yeah, I agree.

    Well, I was making cocktails once and said "how much vodka do you reckon?" and then she said something like "I dunno" like she couldn't be bothered working it out and then I said "well make a decision" and she was like "take some initiative!" (half-jokey, half-serious) hahaha. To me that's part of the Se ego 'get the ball rolling' mentality.

    She says "deal with it" when she thinks that someone's being a pussy or something and needs to man up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Trailer Park Boys is Alpha? Ugh. I may have to secede from my own Quadra.
    To be fair, I don't know really, I just know she likes it. Why, what do you think it is?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    As for this exact situation I can imagine myself not making a decision just for the sake of politeness and asking what the other person wants to. Wine or lager also not a very big decision to make....Maybe she didn't really cared which one?
    I mean this sort of decisions you should leave for Si egos.
    Err, I think she did actually care. Like if I said "right, wine" she'd go "yeah I don't want wine" or something, as though my very saying it spurred her on to make a decision.

    Higher level decisions she's fine with e.g. in her job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    I wonder if this may be TeNi seeking behavior, as in, could it be that her indecisiveness about some things is due to not knowing what will have the best results...?
    Could be, I didn't consider that.

    In spite of her taste for Alpha things, does she like anything that could be considered Gamma?
    I don't know, what would be considered Gamma?

    Oh yeah, I told her she'd be one of these Germans in WWII who just sat back and watched because she didn't care (mainly because she wouldn't argue with me about something which resembled this) and she got minorly offended and said she would absolutely be the one who stood up for what's right. Oh also, she thinks the way I look at 'the big picture' in argument is a bit silly.

    One of the original reasons why I considered Ti base was because she told me she compartmentalises her life in her head; like a piechart and a barchart combined. Is this Ti, or just a visual way of thinking or something unrelated to Ti?

    She has a shitty sense of direction, and loves "looking at maps".
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post



    Err, I think she did actually care. Like if I said "right, wine" she'd go "yeah I don't want wine" or something, as though my very saying it spurred her on to make a decision.

    actually this reminds of my EII friend and his ESI girlfriend. Once I was hanging out with them and their communication seemed like this:

    They have this agreement that they smoke only together. And EII guy wanted to smoke, he asked ESI if she wanted to, she said "no not now". EII guy started complaining and started pulling out cigarettes. Then she said "ok I want to". They had two brands of cigarettes one mint and another not. So EII asked what brand she wanted to have. She said "um non minty ones". The guy started pulling out non minty ones, ESI "no no give me minty ones!".

    That's not the end. EII wanted to listen to some music and asked ESI what song she would like to hear. ESI said she doesn't know. Then the guy put on whatever song he wanted to listen and then ESI declared that she doesn't like the song and asked him to change it. Ok EII changed the song. Again ESI didn't liked it. Again EII changed to the next one. Again ESI didn't liked it. It was like this for about 15minutes. Then ESI remembered the song she wanted to listen to and told him to put on that song. But she didn't remember the title of the song. So another 15minutes for finding that song.
    She is very stubborn about her wants and needs.

    Beside this she would ask him questions like "why you look so dull?" "why you don't talk?" "what's wrong with you?" or command him "can you sit different?" "can you stop smoking at my side" etc etc etc all the time. The EII got a little bit angry at her. And then ESI turned to me and asked "are you like this too? he said you are"

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    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    The reason I'm in doubt about her being Se creative is because she's not great at making decisions (generally on a basic level, like whether to have wine or lager), and I can't imagine a bad decision-maker who has Se in their ego - basically the only reason I think she's not Se ego. At the same time, she says stuff like "deal with it", "take some initiative' and "fucking get on with it" (not to me, haha, just in general e.g. if she's telling a story or something) in a very Se manner.
    I am not very good at making these kind of decisions either because most of the time I simply don't have any preference, or if I do it's not a very strong one. When I do have a preference I definitely state it and push for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    The reason I think she is ESI > LSI is because she refuses to debate with me. She doesn't argue at all, in fact. This is one of the things that actually led me to believe she might be a Ne/Si type. (But I still see Se there, which is why I went for ESI over any other type. However, I've also considered SEI for her.) Fundamentally, though, I think it's because she doesn't like my Ti.
    Maybe she just doesn't like arguing with you? I hate arguing with SLEs. It is pointless most of the time and I don't like to waste my effort on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    However, I doubt ESI because her tastes in comedy are basically Alpha. She loves Curb Your Enthusiasm and has said of Larry David (ILE) that she "wishes he was my friend". What kind of ESI wants their conflictor to be their friend?
    I think Curb is pretty funny and I have another SEE friend that loves it, but I would never want to actually be friends with Larry David's character on the show.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    That's not the end. EII wanted to listen to some music and asked ESI what song she would like to hear. ESI said she doesn't know. Then the guy put on whatever song he wanted to listen and then ESI declared that she doesn't like the song and asked him to change it. Ok EII changed the song. Again ESI didn't liked it. Again EII changed to the next one. Again ESI didn't liked it. It was like this for about 15minutes. Then ESI remembered the song she wanted to listen to and told him to put on that song. But she didn't remember the title of the song. So another 15minutes for finding that song.
    She is very stubborn about her wants and needs.
    I do stuff like this sometimes lol. It must drive other people crazy. Sometimes I don't know what I want but I do know what I don't want. In the case of the music I would have no idea what I want to listen to but know that I don't like particular songs. I don't think it happens frequently but it does happen sometimes.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    actually this reminds of my EII friend and his ESI girlfriend. Once I was hanging out with them and their communication seemed like this:

    They have this agreement that they smoke only together. And EII guy wanted to smoke, he asked ESI if she wanted to, she said "no not now". EII guy started complaining and started pulling out cigarettes. Then she said "ok I want to". They had two brands of cigarettes one mint and another not. So EII asked what brand she wanted to have. She said "um non minty ones". The guy started pulling out non minty ones, ESI "no no give me minty ones!".

    That's not the end. EII wanted to listen to some music and asked ESI what song she would like to hear. ESI said she doesn't know. Then the guy put on whatever song he wanted to listen and then ESI declared that she doesn't like the song and asked him to change it. Ok EII changed the song. Again ESI didn't liked it. Again EII changed to the next one. Again ESI didn't liked it. It was like this for about 15minutes. Then ESI remembered the song she wanted to listen to and told him to put on that song. But she didn't remember the title of the song. So another 15minutes for finding that song.
    She is very stubborn about her wants and needs.

    Beside this she would ask him questions like "why you look so dull?" "why you don't talk?" "what's wrong with you?" or command him "can you sit different?" "can you stop smoking at my side" etc etc etc all the time. The EII got a little bit angry at her. And then ESI turned to me and asked "are you like this too? he said you are"
    oh my god...this is awful

    and yeah ESIs aren't really super-confident when making decisions, after all they are Fi dominant, and introverted feeling is one of the least self-assured functions when it comes to the external world.

    i'd suggest you, ezra, to be a little bit more flexible in your thinking. Why do you keep on holding onto weird preposition like "A Se ego cannot be anything but great at being decisive"? It depends on the decision, it depends on which one of the 4 Se ego types. Base function matters much more than creative function, for example

    as far as song-like examples goes: i naturally skim at lighting fast pace between 1343242343242 songs on the radio, so in the end my girlfriend is always overwhelmed by the continuous change and says "OMG let's just listen to this one, whatever it is!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    One of the original reasons why I considered Ti base was because she told me she compartmentalises her life in her head; like a piechart and a barchart combined.
    To answer your question, this is unrelated to type.

    In my experience, both ESIs and LSIs compartmentalize -- ESIs often do so very matter-of-factly, organizing things in folders, following through with obligations on time, correctly, and generally offering a courteous smile on their completion.

    When Se-LSIs do so, they often come across as taskmasters. When Ti-LSIs do it, generally seem laid-back by comparison; however, they're usually quick to offer 'I told you sos.'

    ESI-LSI relationships:

    My parents were ESI-SLE supervision relationship. (Unlike your situation, in my family's, the female was SLE.) Their sense of humors were VERY different--and in other Gamma/Beta relationships, I've noticed that as well. Gammas often find Beta humor to be too full of jokes at others expense, and consider it 'carrying on,' or somewhat tasteless. Betas often find Gamma humor to be 'corny,' or even 'boring.'

    You don't need to answer these questions--they've characterized all ESI-SLE relationships I've seen. (Surprisingly, this is one of the most common cross-quadra relationships I've noticed... Perhaps the reason is, on first meeting, ESIs can seem very much like a SLEs dual.) The high frequency of these relationships is weird b/c supervision is one of the poorest long-term relationships, Socionics-wise.

    Over time, SLEs begin to find the ESIs patronizing, and somewhat too predictable/even boring. ESIs find SLEs reckless, moody, and psychologically baffling. (It's funny that you mention Curb Your ENthusiasm--strange to say, a handful of ESIs I've asked love that and Seinfeld... I would've thought the opposite too, but comedy and music seem to often run across type.)

    Re LSI:

    Her refusal to debate you is not telling as re: Socionics type. Contrary to usual type-description (usually male-focused anyway)there are LSIs who absolutely refuse to argue--rather, their version of an argument is usually a one-three sentence summation of "I disagree with you, because..."

    Like SLEs, female LSIs can be hard to ID b/c the traits ascribed to the type (thus far) have been pretty masculine. Some female LSIs look masculine; however, just as many do not, e.g. for celebrities: Brooke Shields, Lisa-Marie Presley, Stefi Graf, etc.

    Have you noticed a focus of 'practical logic?' I.e. savoir-faire? ESIs often make great nurses b/c they're great with knowledge of 'how-to' solve various problems.

    LSIs will share your sense of humor, and to extent, share your interests. Generally, they'll support your opinion and add to it. ESIs are likely frame things in a more practical (from a Beta POV) perspective.

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    I want to say ESI assuming that she is IJ. I wouldn't really know what type without that assumption.

    I love the half joking/half not bitchiness of an ESI. It's so entertaining lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    To be fair, I don't know really, I just know she likes it. Why, what do you think it is?
    I have no idea, actually, I just know that I can't stand it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I don't know, what would be considered Gamma?
    eh off the top of my head, I'm not sure
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    What about Ti-LII?
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
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    What kind of ESI wants their conflictor to be their friend?
    This is how MOST conflictor relationships are though. It's textbook example. Conflictors often really want to be friends at first and are very attracted to each other, but the deeper you go the worse it gets. Duals are the opposite, and feel repellent, but the deeper you go, the better it gets.

    I was EXTREMELY attracted to my conflictor. Not sexually mind you but still, it was a pretty intense attraction.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    actually this reminds of my EII friend and his ESI girlfriend. Once I was hanging out with them and their communication seemed like this:

    They have this agreement that they smoke only together. And EII guy wanted to smoke, he asked ESI if she wanted to, she said "no not now". EII guy started complaining and started pulling out cigarettes. Then she said "ok I want to". They had two brands of cigarettes one mint and another not. So EII asked what brand she wanted to have. She said "um non minty ones". The guy started pulling out non minty ones, ESI "no no give me minty ones!".

    That's not the end. EII wanted to listen to some music and asked ESI what song she would like to hear. ESI said she doesn't know. Then the guy put on whatever song he wanted to listen and then ESI declared that she doesn't like the song and asked him to change it. Ok EII changed the song. Again ESI didn't liked it. Again EII changed to the next one. Again ESI didn't liked it. It was like this for about 15minutes. Then ESI remembered the song she wanted to listen to and told him to put on that song. But she didn't remember the title of the song. So another 15minutes for finding that song.
    She is very stubborn about her wants and needs.

    Beside this she would ask him questions like "why you look so dull?" "why you don't talk?" "what's wrong with you?" or command him "can you sit different?" "can you stop smoking at my side" etc etc etc all the time. The EII got a little bit angry at her. And then ESI turned to me and asked "are you like this too? he said you are"
    She just sounds annoyingly neurotic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    I am not very good at making these kind of decisions either because most of the time I simply don't have any preference, or if I do it's not a very strong one. When I do have a preference I definitely state it and push for it.
    But what I find interesting is that it is quite a strong preference. She's not alcoholic, but she really enjoys drinking, so a shitty cocktail could make her feel rubbish, whereas a good one could make her feel really good. (I'm beginning to think she's an SEI.)

    Maybe she just doesn't like arguing with you? I hate arguing with SLEs. It is pointless most of the time and I don't like to waste my effort on it.
    Why do you think it's pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    i'd suggest you, ezra, to be a little bit more flexible in your thinking.
    I guess you're right.

    Why do you keep on holding onto weird preposition like "A Se ego cannot be anything but great at being decisive"?
    Mainly because when I read "These people [Se types] are known for their striving to materialize their will, energy, and power, and for their desire to impose their will on others" I think that striving to materialise your will entails getting done what you want done, which includes making decisions about what you're going to drink, because if what you want to drink is important to you, then you should be able to decide.

    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    To answer your question, this is unrelated to type.

    Her refusal to debate you is not telling as re: Socionics type.
    Okay, understandable.

    Have you noticed a focus of 'practical logic?' I.e. savoir-faire? ESIs often make great nurses b/c they're great with knowledge of 'how-to' solve various problems.
    I haven't seen her in action at work, but I guess so.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    She's probably transient type, IP, the type that doesn't seem to exist.
    asd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post

    Why do you think it's pointless?


    If I may interject, I find from my observation on SLE's that, typically, the content of the arguement isnt as important as the 'powerplay' thats going on for them. SLE's dont like to compromise their egos, if even over something in which no such dynamic was introduced.

    They're also convinced their logic is without flaw. Even if valid evidence is introduced, they'll find a way to twist it into their own image of the world(where they're are right). It's called accomodation in psychological terms.

    Generally, their's just an underlying refusal to compromise or come to a mutual understanding that isn't just on a verbal level.

    Taking only this into account, whats the point in arguing?
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Naked pictures are great for VI.

    1) Are you/could you be bad decision makers ever?
    I make bad decisions, often with comic results, all the time. It's great cheer. Do I have trouble making these decisions? No. I am very decisive.

    2) Are there times you won't argue, and why won't you argue at these times?
    I won't argue if it would be inappropriate. If I feel like I've got the person's attention and won't offend anyone who matters, then I'm very easy to bait into having an argument.

    3) Do you like what is described as "Alpha" comedy e.g. Curb, Trailer Park Boys, Flight of the Concords etc.?
    I don't know. Is The Fast Show Alpha comedy? Because it pretty much describes my overall sense of humor.

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    I think Larry David might be an ILI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Mainly because when I read "These people [Se types] are known for their striving to materialize their will, energy, and power, and for their desire to impose their will on others" I think that striving to materialise your will entails getting done what you want done, which includes making decisions about what you're going to drink, because if what you want to drink is important to you, then you should be able to decide.
    I think this line is more strictly related to Se dominants rather than creatives, for which the base-function descriptions would be more fitting.
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    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    If I may interject, I find from my observation on SLE's that, typically, the content of the arguement isnt as important as the 'powerplay' thats going on for them. SLE's dont like to compromise their egos, if even over something in which no such dynamic was introduced.

    They're also convinced their logic is without flaw. Even if valid evidence is introduced, they'll find a way to twist it into their own image of the world(where they're are right). It's called accomodation in psychological terms.

    Generally, their's just an underlying refusal to compromise or come to a mutual understanding that isn't just on a verbal level.

    Taking only this into account, whats the point in arguing?
    Yea, pretty much this sums up how I feel about arguing with SLEs. They don't give in on points when they are wrong and often times twist things. It seems like it is far more important for them to "win" and argument then to get the facts straight. Also, ime they like to add insults into their arguments about how you are an idiot.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0

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    heath's Avatar
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    well whatever type he is, he sounds like a great guy.
    asd

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    the Omniscient Nexus's Avatar
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    - Moralist

    ESIs are yielding and pessimistic...usually they like to come up with ideas rather than argue
    however, they are usually quick to make up their mind, and always have an opinion on something

    *I also have a shitty sense of direction and I am LSI and love to argue obstinately

    **taste in movies is independent of quadra, but I tend to see ESIs as more shallow than superficial and LSIs as more superficial than shallow (maybe cuz I am one?)

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    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    **taste in movies is independent of quadra, but I tend to see ESIs as more shallow than superficial and LSIs as more superficial than shallow (maybe cuz I am one?)
    Could you please clarify shallow vs. superficial in this context?
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



  26. #26
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    I asked her directly why it is that she didn't like arguing with me and she said because I talk about "pointless shit that doesn't even matter". To her, the bigger picture i.e. that which is found in politics, clearly doesn't matter to her. I guess the reason she thinks it doesn't matter is because she can't do anything about it. It could also be that she has a better perspective on life than I do (she is, after all, older than me). In my eyes, it's a teenage attitude that's left over, and it is slowly fading - I used to argue like I cared, now I really don't care that much, but it still comes up in my thinking. She's right when she says it doesn't matter.

    However, I have another question now. Would an LSI think that the 'bigger picture' didn't matter? The reason I ask is that I'm quite set on Se creative now, and so I'm trying to decide between LSI and ESI. Another thing I thought of was that the way I posed that question about the Nazis and her political apathy in that situation (with the result of her coming back with "absolutely not - I would not stand by and watch; I'd be up there arguing against it") was in a Ti like fashion. I was trying to reason with her that her not liking street performers and not caring if they got cleaned off the streets as the Germans didn't care about the Jews being swept off the streets - in a Ti way. So is this a potential indication of Ti role i.e. her being ESI? Or could she still be an LSI and just think that my rationale was bullshit (even though it was perfectly consistent).
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    1) Are you/could you be bad decision makers ever?
    Yes. This is usually when I have to make a decision in the abstract - like being asked where to have dinner, or where to meet. It's like...I don't know what I want until I have the options in mind - at that point I can decide what I do and don't want a lot easier. Because then I can work out if I actually want that option rather than just randomly picking stuff.

    2) Are there times you won't argue, and why won't you argue at these times?
    Yeah. If I think the other person won't understand my point, because they are so ideologically entrenched in their position, or don't comprehend the importance of the area or whatever, I may keep my peace to save myself the hassle of an argument that would just frustrate us both. Though I've had a lot of those anyway, lol. Also, if I think our argument turns on a petty meaningless point, I may just let the whole thing slide or it just feels like point-scoring. Or sometimes I just don't feel like it - too tired or whatever.

    3) Do you like what is described as "Alpha" comedy e.g. Curb, Trailer Park Boys, Flight of the Concords etc.?
    I don't know what is 'alpha comedy', but of those options, I've only watched Flight of the Concords, and I love it. It isn't one of the shows I watch regularly, but I think it is hilarious. Boston Legal is prob my fave comedy, and I think Top Gear is hilarious.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I asked her directly why it is that she didn't like arguing with me and she said because I talk about "pointless shit that doesn't even matter". To her, the bigger picture i.e. that which is found in politics, clearly doesn't matter to her. I guess the reason she thinks it doesn't matter is because she can't do anything about it. It could also be that she has a better perspective on life than I do (she is, after all, older than me). In my eyes, it's a teenage attitude that's left over, and it is slowly fading - I used to argue like I cared, now I really don't care that much, but it still comes up in my thinking. She's right when she says it doesn't matter.
    I'm interested in politics, but I mean, so much of that is situational and due to your upbringing. The fact that many big picture things are issues you can't directly affect frustrates me too, but I don't think I would see that as a reason not to engage. Though I have to say I think I've mellowed a lot in the past year or so. A lot of things I used to think are outrageous I'm now kind of resigned to as features of the system. I think realising that often things just happen, that there is no one to blame, made me chill out a lot. And having more responsibilities - because then there are things which you can affect and have to deal with on a regular basis that it makes it feel almost irresponsible and immature to be railing about things which you cannot change or fix.

    But I do disagree that politics doesn't matter. It does.

    However, I have another question now. Would an LSI think that the 'bigger picture' didn't matter? The reason I ask is that I'm quite set on Se creative now, and so I'm trying to decide between LSI and ESI. Another thing I thought of was that the way I posed that question about the Nazis and her political apathy in that situation (with the result of her coming back with "absolutely not - I would not stand by and watch; I'd be up there arguing against it") was in a Ti like fashion. I was trying to reason with her that her not liking street performers and not caring if they got cleaned off the streets as the Germans didn't care about the Jews being swept off the streets - in a Ti way. So is this a potential indication of Ti role i.e. her being ESI? Or could she still be an LSI and just think that my rationale was bullshit (even though it was perfectly consistent).
    Um...I have to say that I think your Nazi comparison is offensive, Ez. Street performers being told to get off the streets is NOT in any way the same as standing by while the holocaust occurred. There are fundamental differences in scale and intent there, and one certainly does not follow from the other. In fact, bringing in an emotion-laden argument like that will always seem to me to be almost like blackmail and like you're trying to win the argument for the sake of winning, rather than trying to actually talk about the issue.

    Like I said above, I think the 'big picture' matters, but then again, that no doubt owes partly to my background and what I chose to study at uni. Which means most of the political issues I am passionate about are ones that I care about because of my exposure to them personally or academically. I'm sure there are other areas which I don't care about because their importance has never been impressed upon me. Also, I'm fairly consistent in my areas of concern...I don't really take up causes sporadically and drop them when I lose interest, at least not when I think those things actually matter.
    allez cuisine!

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    the Omniscient Nexus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Could you please clarify shallow vs. superficial in this context?
    ESIs, being democrats/socialites, are sense feelers, and being gamma in particular adds a sense of materialism to the relationship I tend to have with ESIs; LSIs are -creating problem solvers, and as aristocrats they create an intuitive hierarchy of people based on their sentiments towards them (which can be quite strong)...for this reason, LSIs wll often act fake to keep the general atmosphere pleasant despite their true sentiments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I asked her directly why it is that she didn't like arguing with me and she said because I talk about "pointless shit that doesn't even matter". To her, the bigger picture i.e. that which is found in politics, clearly doesn't matter to her. I guess the reason she thinks it doesn't matter is because she can't do anything about it. It could also be that she has a better perspective on life than I do (she is, after all, older than me). In my eyes, it's a teenage attitude that's left over, and it is slowly fading - I used to argue like I cared, now I really don't care that much, but it still comes up in my thinking. She's right when she says it doesn't matter.

    However, I have another question now. Would an LSI think that the 'bigger picture' didn't matter? The reason I ask is that I'm quite set on Se creative now, and so I'm trying to decide between LSI and ESI. Another thing I thought of was that the way I posed that question about the Nazis and her political apathy in that situation (with the result of her coming back with "absolutely not - I would not stand by and watch; I'd be up there arguing against it") was in a Ti like fashion. I was trying to reason with her that her not liking street performers and not caring if they got cleaned off the streets as the Germans didn't care about the Jews being swept off the streets - in a Ti way. So is this a potential indication of Ti role i.e. her being ESI? Or could she still be an LSI and just think that my rationale was bullshit (even though it was perfectly consistent).
    LSIs try to get as big a picture as possible by collecting details; however, assessing which details are the most vital/relevant is not an LSI's forte, so the big picture that an LSI has might be quite small...the negativism and apathy or lack of humanist concern for others is not unheard of for ESI, especially since they accept introverted feeling rather than create extroverted feeling, and the general sentiments and attitudes you described did not seem particularly -valuing...humaneness is a trait that mostly aristocrats have great value for due to the direct alignment of intuition and feeling in the function blocks, and I have not met a beta that felt otherwise (remember that Hitler's success was dependent on a desire for national unity and a sense of general welfare for the Germans, who had lost a lot of money after WWI; the holocaust and WWII were secondary to the success of the Aryan race, which is a fantasy only a beta could realize).

  29. #29
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Yes. This is usually when I have to make a decision in the abstract - like being asked where to have dinner, or where to meet. It's like...I don't know what I want until I have the options in mind - at that point I can decide what I do and don't want a lot easier. Because then I can work out if I actually want that option rather than just randomly picking stuff.
    If you were walking down the street, and were with someone you were going for a drink with, and you had a choice: lager or wine, assuming you liked both of them equally, would you be like "I don't know which I want"?

    Yeah. If I think the other person won't understand my point, because they are so ideologically entrenched in their position, or don't comprehend the importance of the area or whatever, I may keep my peace to save myself the hassle of an argument that would just frustrate us both. Though I've had a lot of those anyway, lol. Also, if I think our argument turns on a petty meaningless point, I may just let the whole thing slide or it just feels like point-scoring. Or sometimes I just don't feel like it - too tired or whatever.
    See, this doesn't strike me as the way she was thinking. Given this:

    Um...I have to say that I think your Nazi comparison is offensive, Ez. Street performers being told to get off the streets is NOT in any way the same as standing by while the holocaust occurred. There are fundamental differences in scale and intent there, and one certainly does not follow from the other. In fact, bringing in an emotion-laden argument like that will always seem to me to be almost like blackmail and like you're trying to win the argument for the sake of winning, rather than trying to actually talk about the issue.
    I wouldn't say she was offended about the comparison. She thought it was ridiculous, sure, but she wasn't offended (or couldn't even have been perceived to be offended until I mentioned that she would stand back in apathy and watch Jews get thrown off the street). She said that because I asked her if she would stand back and watch street performers get thrown off the street she'd be okay with it. I said she was driven by fear etc. just like the Nazis were fearful of the Jews.

    Also, it's not just this: it seems that any time I use Ti to argue a point she just shakes her head and stops arguing. She doesn't like arguing at all. This is why I have a difficult time seeing her as LSI. Because I know the LSIs here, as well as the LSIs I know IRL, would gladly argue in the way that I do. They would at least make an attempt to understand why I am using the Nazi example. She just goes "that's bullshit". I think she lacks Ti, and I think she doesn't value it.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  30. #30
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    Definitely ESI. I can tell by those excellent naked pictures you posted.

  31. #31
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    You got any naked pics, discojoe?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  32. #32
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    actually this reminds of my EII friend and his ESI girlfriend. Once I was hanging out with them and their communication seemed like this:

    They have this agreement that they smoke only together. And EII guy wanted to smoke, he asked ESI if she wanted to, she said "no not now". EII guy started complaining and started pulling out cigarettes. Then she said "ok I want to". They had two brands of cigarettes one mint and another not. So EII asked what brand she wanted to have. She said "um non minty ones". The guy started pulling out non minty ones, ESI "no no give me minty ones!".

    That's not the end. EII wanted to listen to some music and asked ESI what song she would like to hear. ESI said she doesn't know. Then the guy put on whatever song he wanted to listen and then ESI declared that she doesn't like the song and asked him to change it. Ok EII changed the song. Again ESI didn't liked it. Again EII changed to the next one. Again ESI didn't liked it. It was like this for about 15minutes. Then ESI remembered the song she wanted to listen to and told him to put on that song. But she didn't remember the title of the song. So another 15minutes for finding that song.
    She is very stubborn about her wants and needs.

    Beside this she would ask him questions like "why you look so dull?" "why you don't talk?" "what's wrong with you?" or command him "can you sit different?" "can you stop smoking at my side" etc etc etc all the time. The EII got a little bit angry at her. And then ESI turned to me and asked "are you like this too? he said you are"
    This sounds more like an EII guy and an Alpha SF girl, IMO; the main focus seems to be "why aren't you more Fe and Si???" I find myself being frustrated with my father in similar ways: he will never react, never give me any signal that he is emotionally involved in, say, an argument or family discussion. He seems removed to me, not lively, indecisive and absent in situations where I expect people to be engaged and personally invested. I could see an ESE prompting him to "be more lively," and maybe responding sufficiently in the moment, but not really making good on it, maybe just talking a little bit more or sharing his opinions more openly.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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