Bones

[Joy]

I caught part of an episode at a friend's house the other day. Does anyone here watch this? I'm interested in the types of Dr. Temperance "Bones" Brennan and Seeley Joseph Booth.

I know Krig the Viking has typed them as Alpha rationals and he's probably seen much more of the show than I have, but different typings came to my mind after seeing what I did of the show. I'm open to other ideas though. Does anyone else here watch it.

[Krig the Viking]

I watched a couple of seasons before I decided that it was just too difficult to eat pizza and watch the show at the same time.



...you know, because of all the decaying corpses and stuff.

[JRiddy]

I've typed Emily Deschanel as Ti-ENTp, and that doesn't seem unreasonable for the character. David Boreanaz is some alpha.

[Joy]

Haven't seen much of the show, but I did download the first season and watch the first couple of episodes today. I was thinking LIE and EII for the characters.

[Krig the Viking]

Why EII > LII for Bones?

[Logos]

Why EII > LII for Bones?

I think she's typing Bones as LIE.

[Joy]

LOL (How on Earth could Booth possibly NOT be an ethical type?)

Yes, LIE for Bones. A Fi PoLR seems unlikely and a Se PoLR seems even more unlikely. NT is obvious though, of course.

[ArchonAlarion]

lol poor joy

[Joy]

I think Hodges (or whatever his name is) is a more likely ILE.

[silverchris9]

Personally, I think that Booth and Bones are gamma duals. I don't really care if they're the rational or irrational dyad (and, in fact, as fictional characters written by multiple authors, they may behave/think like the rational sometimes and the irrational other times), but I tend to think of Bones as ILI-Te and Booth as SEE-Fi. I think Sweets is LII (maybe ILE), Angela is IEE, Hodgins is ILE, and that one intern who was Sweets' girlfriend is a caricature of an ESE.

Bones seems manifestly Fe polr, and Booth is definitely ethical, and definitely Fi > Fe. I don't think he's EII because I don't get Se polr from him, and I don't think he's IEE because his energy is not Ne enough for that.

[Krig the Viking]

I think she's typing Bones as LIE.

Really? Bones as an extravert? I hadn't expected that. At least we can all agree on NT, though.

How does Bones display Te>Ti? Or Booth display Fi>Fe? I'm curious as to what kind of positive evidence you guys are basing your conclusions on. I'm not a huge fan of typing people by their PoLRs.

[mu4]

Bones is ILI I think.

Carmen, Booth are both Gamma Fi types and Angela is SLE.

Hodgins I'm not really sure, he's not well characterized, something NT.

[Joy]

I've seen a few more episodes now and I'm fairly certain that they're LIE and ESI. However, the guy who plays Booth is not a Se ego type, which threw me off initially.

Bones is a pretty good example of the EJ temperament. She's always looking to make things happen. She's impatient and often feels like she has to do something in a situation. Her communication style is Ti sometimes when she's talking about work as being a scientist requires use of Ti, but overall it's more Te than Te. The way she relates to people is more Te. There are a lot of times when she clarifies what's being communicated with a concise summary/statement in typical Te manner ("Basically, *insert Te aspect of the situation here*.") She's more focused on the rational external dynamics of a situation than anything. She's demonstrated Ti ignoring in a conversation with Booth about following rules (and in her actions as related to rules). He asked her to respect the rules. She said that she would not, but that she respects him enough to follow the rules for his sake. Basically, she was saying that she'll respect his Fi (his needs and wishes) but not Ti. Also, she's clearly the logical type (and he the ethical type) in the relationship in that he criticizes her insensitivity in dealing with people, and she readily takes his advice. If she was SEE, she wouldn't need it (especially from an ILI!), and if she was ILI, she wouldn't be in a position to utilize that information properly (because she's have a Fe PoLR instead of a Fe role). She's also demonstrated a Fi-valuing focus regarding relationships. I saw an episode (it was the first one I saw and I was partially paying attention to it) where she thought one of her colleague's partners was cheating on him and spent the entire episodes getting advice from people, all of whom told her not to tell him... but she did anyways because she felt like she had to DO something and because she values Fi. An Alpha NT would not have been so worried about the situation. They would have just left it alone. Also, her Se hidden agenda is visible in her use of guns and martial arts (or whatever it is she does when she kicks people's asses). Booth plays the typical dual/illusionary partners in Se/Ni creative relationships by stroking her hidden agenda when he warns people that they shouldn't mess with her and then says "I warned you" when they do anyways and she throws them. An ILI wouldn't act that way because Se is their 5th function. (The 4th and the 5th are the weakest.)


Booth is an excellent example of the IJ temperament. He's very controlled, focused, and self-possessed. He's always quite clear about his values and priorities. He's also quite clearly ethical: He's very focused on the internal rational aspects of situations, the emotional and relationship aspects of it. Bones has commented that he has a subconscious knack for seeing subtle changes in people's body language (Fe) and that she'll give his "gut feeling" more consideration/respect in the future. This is also way for her to stroke his hidden agenda (Ni) as duals/illusionary partners do. Booth's occasional crankiness (often unexplained, lol!) is uncanny in its similarity to that of a couple of ESI's I know irl. Even his response when someone points out that he's cranky is the same. Interestingly, when he gets like that, Bones and Zack let him get away with it. They just sit back and respect his Se, Fi, and Fe and let him have his way. Also, his referral to intellectuals as "squints" and his annoyance with them is a typical SJ response when the SJ isn't an intellectual.


Hodgins is most like an ILE (little to no focus on Te, much focus on his Ne conspiracy theories, Alpha values/attitudes).


Zack is most like an ILI, though he does act a bit like other INxx types on occasion.


Angela... I guess IEE fits best. SEE could also work. She's a bit pushy/nosy about relationships for an IEE. She definitely focuses on relationships though.

[Logos]

Really? Bones as an extravert? I hadn't expected that. At least we can all agree on NT, though.

How does Bones display Te>Ti? Or Booth display Fi>Fe? I'm curious as to what kind of positive evidence you guys are basing your conclusions on. I'm not a huge fan of typing people by their PoLRs.

I've never seen the show, though I have read a scant bit about it. I could just see where this thread would likely go from the first post, though I bit my lip about it.

[silverchris9]

I don't have much evidence for Te > Ti for Bones, but here's my reasoning on Fi > Fe Booth:

I associate Fe with a certain kind of skill or capacity; it is the ability to communicate, impart, and cause change in internal state. On the other hand, I associate Fi with a general pattern or method abstracted from that skill: it is an account of how, generally, one communicates, imparts, and causes changes in internal states. This is why Fi is considered to be more concerned with rules and principles. Certainly, Booth is more concerned with rules and principles: people generally act in manner x when they're lying; it is generally bad to speak ill of God in a church; it is generally a good idea to tell jokes in this certain manner, etc. Booth doesn't put any pressure on Booth to feel a certain way (I assume that's how Fe feels to Fe nonvaluers), but can tell her that certain actions are "good" or "bad," and the ultimate referent of this "good" and "bad" is "causes desirable internal states in the self and others" and "causes undesirable internal states in the self and others". In other words, Crouching FBI Agent, Hidden Fe. I think Booth's emphasis is on the "how" of feelings/ethics, rather than the actual feelings, which works for Bones.

I guess Te > Ti for Bones is just a natural assumption to make based on the Bones-Booth relationship. Plus, if Bones is Ti, she has to be beta and I definitely don't get a beta vibe from her, and it is generally agreed that she's NT anyway. I say this because her thinking process is pretty clearly Ni > Ne: she does not ask, "what are all the possibilities" and then sort through them based on Ti reasoning like an alpha NT might. Rather, she makes Ni-like leaps of intuition: evidence A fits with general pattern B, therefore the situation is like general pattern B. She gathers a bunch of facts (nicks in bone, pre-existing medical conditions, etc.) with Te, and does a little bit of Ti-style possibility-eliminating, but usually comes to a solution by amassing the facts into a "story" or an "account" of who the person was, how the person died, etc. This definitely reminds me of Ni, which I maintain is all about creating/discovering "patterns" that organize occurrences or discrete information into a larger whole, which is exactly how Bones thinks.

[Krig the Viking]

I've never seen the show, though I have read a scant bit about it. I could just see where this thread would likely go from the first post, though I bit my lip about it.

Heh, LII Demonstrative-Ni, eh?

So I just watched an episode of Bones, to refresh my memory. I'm afraid I can't agree at all on the lead characters being Gamma. Bones in particular is a spot-on example of a female Ti-LII (N-LII in DCNH). Look at this page and compare Bones' typical vocabulary to Ne and Ti, and then Ni and Te. She's always talking about whether things are logical, consistent, correct or incorrect, and she speaks in a very precise, grammatically correct manner, exaggeratedly so at times. By contrast, she rarely talks about efficiency, productivity, expediency, etc. She uses a lot of "perhaps" and "possible" and "likely", but not as much "anticipate", "foresee", or "predict". Her work focuses on the correct analysis of static evidence. While LIIs do use their 4-dimensional Ni, it's always subjected to rigorous Ti analysis before it's acted upon.

To address some of the points you raised, Joy: clarifying what a person said by prefacing a sentence with "basically", and then rephrasing what they said is a standard Ne M.O. -- it's Ne trying to get a sense of the fundamental essense of what the person is trying to say. "Basically, what you're saying...", "In essense, what you're saying is...", "So, fundamentally, what you mean is...", etc., these are all characteristic of Ne.

Regarding her disregard for the rules -- LSIs follow the rules. LIIs follow the rules if they think the rules make sense. It's the Ne. LIIs tend to think they have a better understanding of reality than the people who made the rules in the first place, and therefore feel free to disregard them when necessary, especially when the rules conflict with an LII's core principles, which they will not break for any reason.

I would interperet the episode where Brennen is seeking advice from everybody on whether or not to tell her colleague about his partner's infidelity quite differently. This is clearly an LII seeking a "script" for her Role Fi. She was afraid that telling the truth in this instance would damage the relationships involved (between her and the colleague, the colleague and his partner, etc.), and having only 2-dimensional Fi, didn't know how to handle it, so she sought advice. In the end, she ignored her friends' advice and decided that Fi (preserving the relationship) was less important than Ti (telling the truth).

Finally, it's understandable that many people mistake LIIs for Fe-PoLRs, or at least not Fe-valuing. Suggestive Fe is just as 1-dimensional as Fe-PoLR, and many LIIs wear a mask of cold immutability to protect their weak Fe. But it's just a mask, and despite their external appearances, they do appreciate expressions of emotion.

And Booth... I don't know, he seems obviously Fe to me; it's hard to see him otherwise. Silverchris, your description of Fi looks suspiciously like Fe to me. Fi is more about static relationships between people than changing internal states. Dynamic internal states of objects are by definition Fe.

Anyway, that's my opinion. I don't have any particular desire to get into an extended debate on the subject (too many other things on my mind), so I think that's all I'll say for now. Good luck with the typing!

[Logos]

Heh, LII Demonstrative-Ni, eh?

I suppose it is, but such prophetic activity really comes through the ordinary knowledge of the subjects.

[Joy]

You have some really good points about Bones. I definitely see them, but I also still see mine. I think the explanation is that the characters aren't written to be exactly like one particular type. They're written to be entertaining and to make people identify with them. She's definitely NT though!

One thing that you said that I don't see at all though is that Fe ego is apparent for Booth. My boss is as ESE as they come, and there's a world of difference between him and Booth. Booth definitely has strong Fe, but I don't see Fe dominance at all. Also, he seems very IJ to me. I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on this though.

I suppose it is, but such prophetic activity really comes through the ordinary knowledge of the subjects.

The most likely course of this topic should have been pretty obvious to anyone who's been around for any amount of time.

btw, my son recently made a friend who looks very much like a child version of you. Peter sees it, too. It's really weird.

[Joy]

One thing that you said that I don't see at all though is that Fe ego is apparent for Booth. My boss is as ESE as they come, and there's a world of difference between him and Booth. Booth definitely has strong Fe, but I don't see Fe dominance at all. Also, he seems very IJ to me. I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on this though.

In episode 10 (which I'm watching right now) he's wearing a shirt that says "GIVE ME MY SPACE"... not a very typical ESE sentiment, but it suits him well.

[Krig the Viking]

In episode 10 (which I'm watching right now) he's wearing a shirt that says "GIVE ME MY SPACE"... not a very typical ESE sentiment, but it suits him well.

Actually, one of the common complaints I've heard from ESEs is "I'm not really as outgoing as everybody thinks I am." I mean, sure, they enjoy going to parties and meeting new people, etc., but they also need plenty of quiet time to sit and sort through all of their emotions and figure things out (DS Ti). While EPs want to get out there and stir up some chaos, EJs are only out there because they're trying to reign the chaos in.

This is why ESEs get along at all with LIIs. ESEs are not as outgoing as they appear, and LIIs are not as cold and heartless as they appear.

But you're right, I know three male ESEs, and one of them is not very similar to Booth at all -- very silly and noisy. The other two, however, have definite resemblances -- calmer and more under-control, but still definitely extraverts. I'd expect it's some kind of subtype thing.

[Joy]

While I can accept that there are ESE's that are less FeSi than my boss, there are still things about Booth that aren't consistent with ESE. However, there are also things that aren't consistent with ESI. Maybe he's much of an "generic fictional SF" as Bones is a "generic fictional NT".

[Logos]

Actually, one of the common complaints I've heard from ESEs is "I'm not really as outgoing as everybody thinks I am." I mean, sure, they enjoy going to parties and meeting new people, etc., but they also need plenty of quiet time to sit and sort through all of their emotions and figure things out (DS Ti). While EPs want to get out there and stir up some chaos, EJs are only out there because they're trying to reign the chaos in.

This is why ESEs get along at all with LIIs. ESEs are not as outgoing as they appear, and LIIs are not as cold and heartless as they appear.

I agree wholeheartedly. The benefit of the LII/ESE relationship is that through the LII the ESE has an effective sounding board for their own concerns and issues, while the LII is just thrilled to have company.

[Krig the Viking]

I agree wholeheartedly. The benefit of the LII/ESE relationship is that through the LII the ESE has an effective sounding board for their own concerns and issues, while the LII is just thrilled to have company.

Hahaha, yes.

While I can accept that there are ESE's that are less FeSi than my boss, there are still things about Booth that aren't consistent with ESE. However, there are also things that aren't consistent with ESI. Maybe he's much of an "generic fictional SF" as Bones is a "generic fictional NT".

Keep in mind that strong Fe doesn't necessarily mean "loud", just "skilled in understanding people's internal dynamic states". Being loud and excitable is just one way they can affect those internal dynamic states in people.

I would say that it's almost certain that Bones and Booth do have specific sociotypes, whatever they might be. As I've said before about fictional characters, having a sociotype is an essential part of creating a believable, realistic character. Audiences and writers may not understand the theoretical aspects of socionics, but they do know what real people are like, and real people have sociotypes. I don't think a character-based drama like Bones would have survived more than a season without realistic, believable, internally consistent lead characters, which means that they should, logically, have consistent sociotypes.

[Joy]

I disagree about fictional characters having types. Sounds like you've probably already read my topic about that though.

[Krig the Viking]

I disagree about fictional characters having types. Sounds like you've probably already read my topic about that though.

Indeed -- no sense rehashing that discussion here.

[Joy]

I'm a little confused about how they chose the actress to play Angela. Everything about her appearance is, at best, plain (except her ass, which looks great).

I don't particularly like any of the actors, now that I think about it. Zack seems more effeminate than he should, the guy who plays Hodgins is too Se, the guy who plays Booth is too Ne, and the woman that plays Bones has a voice that's too high pitched and throaty.

Actually, I do like the actor that plays the museum director is cast well.

[Hitta]

If you think the character of bones is anything other than alpha you have a brain problem.

[Hitta]

If you think the character of bones is anything other than alpha you have a brain problem.

Brain disorders are common.

[Hitta]

Brain disorders are common.

Types are superficial categories.

[Hitta]

Types are superficial categories.

Do I have a brain disorder?

[Joy]

If you think the character of bones is anything other than alpha you have a brain problem.

Yeah well... you say the same about House.

[Joy]

I've changed my mind about Booth. The character has changed since the first handful of episodes. I maintain that fictional characters don't have types, but the character is written to act like someone with a Ni PoLR (at least in the beginning of season 2).

[Joy]

I've changed my mind about Bones, too. Her character most closely resembles an LII, though it's a really crappy portrayal.

btw, whatever happened to Booth's girlfriend from the first season? She disappeared with no explanation.

[Krig the Viking]

I've changed my mind about Booth. The character has changed since the first handful of episodes. I maintain that fictional characters don't have types, but the character is written to act like someone with a Ni PoLR (at least in the beginning of season 2).

I've changed my mind about Bones, too. Her character most closely resembles an LII, though it's a really crappy portrayal.

btw, whatever happened to Booth's girlfriend from the first season? She disappeared with no explanation.

I would content that it's an excellent portrayal of a really strange LII, but otherwise, yes.

I dunno what happened to his girlfriend -- all this talk about it is making me want to watch it all again, and then catch up on the seasons I missed. It's a somewhat strange feeling, watching a portrayal of an opposite-gender version of your own type.

[Joy]

Minus the IJ temperament and Se PoLR.

[Joy]

Episode 5 of season 2 sorta pissed me off. Or at least irritated me. I don't usually care about the romantic aspects of these types of shows, but Booth has been so cute. His feelings for Bones started to show in episode 7 of season 1, and the scene with that Hispansic gangster, the episode with the exploding refrigerator, and the way he acted in New Orleans were so endearing. I've just lost my respect for the character though. He was pretty disgusting and not respectable in the episode I just saw.

[1981slater]

Provided that screenwriters don't know about Socionics, it is always useless to type fictional characters (I do this too, now and then ) and even more useless trying to type virtual intertype relations. Many fictional couples "resemble" real world dual couples, but sometimes their relationship doesn't "make sense" because of what I said.

I have only watched a few episodes, so I am not sure of my typings on them:

IMO, Bones is Ti-LII: intelligent, methodic, blunt, non politically-correct. Booth tries to make her let Fe go.

The character Booth is, as far as I can remember, a mix of Ti-SLE and Si-ESFj.

The rest of the researchers are alpha irrationals: the young guy (ILE), the guy with a beard (ILE too) and the asian girl (SEI).

[silverchris9]

I'm still having trouble believing that Booth is not Fi-valuing. I don't get Fe from him at all. He's not animated or unusually expressive. He doesn't induce emotional states in other people except as it is necessary for leadership. Rather, he focuses on relationship axioms, how to deal with people/behave/do things socially in general. That's Fi, and that's what works for Bones. In the latest episode, his relationship with Gramps is totally Fi, not because of how he treats him (it's not type related to treat your grandparents well, obviously), but because of how he focuses on how he ought to treat him. That being said, it is easy to type Bones as LII. But... I don't think she is. Like I said, she doesn't seem to work in an LII manner, coming to her conclusions through a series of logical steps. Rather, she makes leaps in logic from a hint or a part straight to a whole, which is totally Ni to me. Also, Te can be just as concerned with practicality as Ti, and generally Bones emphasis on "reason" is just as much of an emphasis on practicality, doing what is best for the mission, etc., as anything else. Also, if you believe in erotic attitudes, 0% chance that Bones is an infantile seeking Si. I see no evidence that she seeks Si at all; she certainly never talks about it, that I can remember. I don't see that she seeks Fe: she doesn't want another person to induce a given emotional state in her or in the "atmosphere" around her. She certainly enjoys being around Booth but not because of him providing Fe excitement or emotional energy. I do see that she seeks Fi: she wants to know in general how to deal with other people. She is responsive to learning what behaviors are and are not OK with other people, or will produce the desired results. A huge part of her story arch is Booth teaching Bones how to deal with other people via Fi. Also, she speaks in terms that are generally associated with alpha NTs because alpha NTs are generally associated with science, and she's a scientist. Also, Booth is very sensitive to power dynamics within the FBI and between himself and Bones as a result of their wide income disparity (this is played up a lot when Bones comes out with her 3rd--I think--book). Also, Bones' insane knowledge of absolutely any facts, whether they have anything to do with her work or not, accords much better with NiTe than with TiNe, which would be much more selective about what they bother to memorize, whereas Te is just interested in knowing the facts, any facts. From wikisocion ILI "common social roles":

The encyclopedist or librarian type who knows literally all there is to know about vast areas of knowledge, but does not use his or her knowledge at work.

Most of my argument turns on the whole Fi thing, so if my conception of Fi is wrong, that could explain it. But I think that internal statics of fields means something akin to "how internal/emotional relationships always work," (as opposed to "how to affect internal/emotional relationships at various times") which is how you derive the idea that Fi = axiomatic understanding of relationships, how one ought to treat people, etc. Hence the association between Fi and defining relationships; Fi is great at defining what sort of relationship one is in, since it is associated with knowledge of how relationships work in general. This is what is helpful to Bones, not someone raising her emotional state or clearly expressing their current emotions. She's more concerned with someone's unchanging (or at least "sticky" if you'll accept that metaphor) disposition toward her.

Of course, fictional characters really don't have type. But I'm saying that Booth and Bones are better examples of gamma behavior that alpha behavior. That's just my thought, though.

[Joy]

In season 2, Booth acts like an LSE who has strong Fe and Fi (and valued Fi) and too much Se. In season 1 he acted much more like an ESI.

I very much identify with Booth, but it's simply because the weak Fe and Fi. People criticize her for the same things they criticize me for. As I said before, she's like an LII minus the IJ temperament (she acts more EJ than IJ) and Se PoLR. She does not appear to value Se though (apparent in her looks of disgust or disdain at various things that people say/do, none of which I can recall off the top of my head). None of the characters appear to except maybe Cam (and she's a bit of an antagonist). It's because the show itself seems to embrace Alpha values, overall.

[Joy]

Just finished season 3. Whoa.