Duality: feeling unworthy or intimidated by your dual?

[Simon Ssmall]

they DO. But the problem is not being able to see them. They exist, but are invisible to us.

So people keep telling me, I've yet to find one to believe it. Not that I'm looking actually. I'm happy as it is.

But I found one!! (finally). And he has bunches of SLI friends (guys and girls), who I also wouldn't have noticed if they weren't right in front of me.

Grats !

[Satan]

in a word, yes.

Even though I consider myself an awesome person, I do have the feeling of how can I possibly measure up to them? And I don't think it affects the relationships negatively. I think it causes an underlying respect between both parties which aids the relationship in the long run. So it's a good thing.

Something about playing to your strengths.

[Krig the Viking]

The trick is don't look for someone who sweeps you off your feet, but for someone who'll catch you if you do.

Nice. That's going in my quotefile.

[Marie84]

[Delta STs in particular, from my perspective] are so pulled-together and self-sufficient that it makes me wonder what I am doing for them [at least in the beginning]....

Yah I know the feeling

[Logos]

I wonder if the Caregiver/Infantile and Aggressor/Victim dichotomies play any role in this. It seems, from reading this thread so far, that Infantiles tend to feel unworthy of Caregivers at first.

I pity anyone who has the misfortune of being my dual.

[xkj220]

I wonder if the Caregiver/Infantile and Aggressor/Victim dichotomies play any role in this. It seems, from reading this thread so far, that Infantiles tend to feel unworthy of Caregivers at first.

Hmm, I would say perhaps something like this: victims > infantiles > caregivers. Then Ne PoRL's, because with their low ability to see "potentiality", they cannot see their own "potentiality" (IOW: They cannot measure their own self-worth accurately; either static ethical self worth (Ne + Fi) or static "objective" self-worth (Ne + Ti)). Finally the ESxp's.

[Krig the Viking]

Hmm, I would say perhaps something like this: victims > infantiles > caregivers. Then Ne PoRL's, because with their low ability to see "potentiality", they cannot see their own "potentiality" (IOW: They cannot measure their own self-worth accurately; either static ethical self worth (Ne + Fi) or static "objective" self-worth (Ne + Ti)). Finally the ESxp's.

Hmm. I went back and examined the thread a little closer, and I think the pattern emerging is that Intuition, especially when combined with Introversion, heightens the probability of feeling "unworthy". However, the data is not 100% consistent, and I'm pretty sure a person's level of dualization plays a big role.

But you're right, SxEs are the least likely to feel "unworthy" in the slightest.

[Marie84]

Hmm. I went back and examined the thread a little closer, and I think the pattern emerging is that Intuition, especially when combined with Introversion, heightens the probability of feeling "unworthy". However, the data is not 100% consistent, and I'm pretty sure a person's level of dualization plays a big role.

But you're right, SxEs are the least likely to feel "unworthy" in the slightest.

You know, I wonder if it's because the four introverted intuitive types tend to be overly introspective.
When you spend too much time over-analyzing everything it would only make sense to conjure-up a lot of negative suppositions

[Krig the Viking]

You know, I wonder if it's because the four introverted intuitive types tend to be overly introspective.
When you spend too much time over-analyzing everything it would only make sense to conjure-up a lot of negative suppositions

Hmm, that could be. I'm going to have to sit here introspectively and analyze it for a while.

[Marie84]

Hmm, that could be. I'm going to have to sit here introspectively and analyze it for a while.

Not to long or you may start questioning the matter of your own existence

[electric sheep]

Generally I find my dual, along with most other people, intolerable over long periods of time. I don't think it's the fact that they are my dual, it's that I have trouble accepting people's flaws, I'm prone to trying to "fix" them. I'm a really difficult person to get along with sometimes.

One particular ESE I've met recently stands out as someone I'd consider way out of my league, but I think it's just a social status thing. Maybe I just look for the ones that need fixing...

[silverchris9]

Meh. I don't think I feel "unworthy" of SLEs by any means. I feel awkward around them sometimes, because they appear to be in control whereas I feel very not, also they are often cool while I'm not. But I don't feel that that makes me unworthy of them. It's just an obstacle between us, not anything having to do with either of our significances as human beings/awesome people/whatever.

[Khola aka Bee]

Of course not! I need to be there to tell them they are awesome and care for them

[SpreeFirit]

I can play it off incredibly well, but beta ST's can be so intimidating to me.
Specifically, ISTj's. And I guess that is part of duality, yes? Feeling intimidated by your dual and their "world." Their energy is so forceful, and is very attractive to me. Essentially, they have strengths that I don't have, and watching them interact with the world and execute their talents so effortlessly makes me feel such admiration for them, that I get nervous inside.
I wonder if they feel the same way about Beta NF's?

[Beautiful sky]

I often get down on myself for not looking perfect or desirable physically and just good to the sensory LSE. I had a heart to heart with myself and I had to think of what to do next. What I want and how to I get it. I figured I had to show the side of me that most women are not to my duals. They are not x, y, z but I asked what i am and how do I come off that way. My extravert friends helped pull together a dating profile that was just right and I wrote one that pretty much knocked off the men who didn't fit the traits then I waited for the right ones. Of these there were extremely immature and heartless LSE who want just to have sex. I had to wait patiently. I did. Two years past since my last nightmare and i couldn't be happier this day. I argue with LSE who wants to perfect me..."wear this, color your hair like this" I say "no" I'm perfect the way I am. I demand respect for how I am and want to be. Though there are a lot of gorgeous women all spiffied up to the 9s every day I stand confidently watching myself and proud to day that looks aren't everything. I give LSE what they need...stability of relationship, overlook and accept their grumpiness, indecisiveness, demanding, controlling, authoritarian nature and recognize their troubeling emotions and talk about it, give them space, support their interests and suggest new things to do. I'm calm , confident, and I don't take anyone's attitude without gently getting them to understand options in behavior.

[Eliza Thomason]

..... I say "no" I'm perfect the way I am. I demand respect for how I am ....

I think you are on target with that Maritsa because I think its the self confidence that appeals more than the hairstyle to a guy. (Reasonable exceptions of course!)

I pulled two other quotes out of context to make a point:

I often get down on myself for not looking perfect or desirable physically and just good to the sensory LSE.....
...Though there are a lot of gorgeous women all spiffied up to the 9s ...

This reminds me of the truth that men and women have different views on woman's beauty. And that so much of what we women tend to want to obsess with concerning our looks is not what a guy cares about anyway. I first read this some years ago when I was obsessing over what to do about me to improve my marriage. I realized how true it is. So after reading what you wrote here, Maritsa, I went to find that old quote. But I prefer not to cite the book because I think the author is brilliant on some thoughts but quite misleading on others. So here is the little gem of truth I want to share. I am rewriting it for you:

"Haven't you been puzzled at times to know what a certain man sees in a particular woman? To you she doesn't hold any appeal, yet the man may be enchanted. The fascination a man feels for a certain woman seems to be an eternal riddle to the rest of her sex. Even when asked why the man seems to find himself at a loss to explain the spell cast upon him. And, haven't you also known women who appear to have all the qualities that ought to please a man, yet they are unappreciated, neglected, and often unloved? So... remember that a man judges with a different set of values.

"Women are inclined to appreciate poise, talent, intellectual gifts, and cleverness of personality, whereas men admire girlishness, tenderness, sweetness of character, vivacity, and the ability to understand men. A marked difference is in regard to appearance. Women are inclined to admire artistic beauty such as the shape of a face, the nose, and artistic clothes. Men, however, have a different interpretation of what makes a woman beautiful. They place more stress on the sparkle in her eyes, smiles, freshness, radiance, and her feminine manner."


While her descriptors may be old-fashioned, I still think there is something to this. How we women judge beauty is different from how guys do. I think a women spiffed up to the 9s, for example, is more ideal to us than to a man, in general.

_____________
Editing to add: Another reason why these words had come to mind is the surprise and sadness that you could be concerned about your looks. You are beautiful! Tons of women would love to look like you!

[suedehead]

I loved my dual. It's a give-and-take.

[Pookie]

Not really, no.

[Amber]

Feeling quite implacably dual-less atm. My "duals" are people I can sketch a form of connection with.

Socionics should be smashed naked and empty of all its BS. (I can't wait for some Gamma SF to show up and tell me how I'm mid-way between 584 and 648).

[wacey]

On romantic dual:

No feelings of unworthiness about my personality no. As a young person, oh yeah for sure tons of feelings of unworthiness in general, not just with supposed duals. That's common though, no worries there for yourself dude.

On other factors, oh yeah....

If they knew how much of a mess I was, would they still like me? If they saw how scattered brain I was would they stick around? Do they know what I do before I see them; the deep valleys I walk, the high mountain ridges? Would my zig zagged behaviour confuse them? Worry them? Hurt them? Make them want me? Make them not? Would they see the real me? If they know how I really was, would they want that? And more importantly, need that? Would they want me in their life, especially if they have more then me? Do I have enough money to be in their league? I'm a good looking enough? Do I take care of my body enough? Do I dress the right way? Is my life directed enough for them? Do they know how I'm often hanging by a string? Can they put up with change? Can I put up with change? Where is this going? Will I measure up to what they want? Will they worry I'm not what they want/expect? Will I always feel thrilled by them? Can I handle them? Why did they not call? Should I continue? Should I wait? How do they want me to behave?

I realize some of this list is introversion/extroversion. It does get easier to relax and trust and not listen to the insecurities certainly as I met a new dual. (don't ask me my type I don't know and in the socionics paradigm does the typology matter? a dual is a dual).

Because much of this list comes from feeling unworthy in life, it's okay maybe cause that keeps you going. Frustration at myself is a catalyst for change. I have a hard time knowing if someone likes me if they are not somehow showing it. Acting happy and calling me up helps me believe cause I don't always believe. Wanting me around also helps. Including me in the adventures is such a signpost and I have learned never to be intimadated by the rush of new experiences when they move quickly. If someone doesn't want me around often then I begin to doubt how they really feel about me. Then I wonder if it's cause I'm unworthy. I don't know what other people think but I think THIS IS DANGEROUS thinking. Maybe I was unworthy to them, but I am not unworthy myself. I'm awesome. This line of thinking: it happened a lot more when I was inexperienced in dating

However, the same list of insecurities still come up each and every time. Duality is a process, NOT a guarantee. In relationships, their are very few guarantees, especially in the beginning.

You need to value yourself because if you value yourself you do not feel unworthy, nor intimidated. But the catch 22 here is that in order to value yourself you need to try in the first place in order to gain value and self-worth.

Eventually you become so certain of yourself, born from experiences. Even the burns make you more certain. I can guarantee that. ALSO, lightening up and having fun. Its happening as it should.

[lemontrees]

i feel unworthy around anyone i really like. i don't trust anyone to stay

duality is scary in so far as- there's not much you can really hide if you get closer. but that's also what makes it liberating

[wacey]

nicely said, lemontrees.

[no time]

BE STRONG

DIVIDE AND CONQUER



-little napoleonka

[Olimpia]

I do not meet my duals often, simply because I usually move around in areas they rarely have a deep interest in – literally and figuratively.

However, when I meet one, I do feel perhaps not necessarily unworthy, but self-conscious – I feel like I do not really embody what they would want or need in a partner. And that sounds strange, considering I am supposed to be what they desire, but I cannot help feel like they do not, at least not consciously.

[Esaman]

in areas they rarely have a deep interest in – literally and figuratively.

gotta ask.What are the two meanings? As far as I know "deep interest" has no literal interpretation, only the one metaphorical - interest to know from all sides and in nuance.

[Olimpia]

gotta ask.What are the two meanings? As far as I know "deep interest" has no literal interpretation, only the one metaphorical - interest to know from all sides and in nuance.

Areas, literally (places): I usually stay at home or go to university, or an opera, or a theatre for example – most SLEs do not seem to be into that, or go there.
Areas, figuratively (topics): I am really into literature. Also, most SLEs seem not to be "patient" enough to read a lot. (They rather "do" things.)

I suppose most of these observations are based on SLE-Se impressions.

[Amber]

Areas, literally (places): I usually stay at home or go to university, or an opera, or a theatre for example – most SLEs do not seem to be into that, or go there.
Areas, figuratively (topics): I am really into literature. Also, most SLEs seem not to be "patient" enough to read a lot. (They rather "do" things.)

I suppose most of these observations are based on SLE-Se impressions.

I'll give you 3000 usd if you can convince a SLE to go to the opera or theater. I did meet SLEs with more "intellectual" interests (two were on postdoc programs in chemistry&physics), but artistic sensitivity was almost inexistent. I checked out a short film festival on Impermanence with a SLE once and he couldn't even stand watching till the end, so bored by anything addressing immaterial matters he was. If you took him to noisy thrilling places like clubs, pop concerts, or amusement parks, he was your man.

[lemontrees]

Areas, literally (places): I usually stay at home or go to university, or an opera, or a theatre for example – most SLEs do not seem to be into that, or go there.
Areas, figuratively (topics): I am really into literature. Also, most SLEs seem not to be "patient" enough to read a lot. (They rather "do" things.)

I suppose most of these observations are based on SLE-Se impressions.

i know a whole bunch of literature obsessed SLE's then again i studied lit, and SLE's and I tend to gravitate towards each other

i think in general they are romantic people and secretly share (or would share, if exposed correctly) the passions of their duals, even when they can't fully immerse in the same way

[Aylen]

One dual has ever really made me feel intimidated. She was twice my size and a fucking powerhouse of intimidation, not just to me, to everyone. Not a typically attractive woman but people were drawn to her and wanted her to like them, to include them in whatever she did. An invitation to one of her parties was like winning the lottery for some. I just sat back and watched this happen over and over.

I never felt unworthy of her. The opposite actually. She brought me into her inner circle and let my sit by her side, sts. I felt immensely powerful in her presence but she had the power to strike me down with one look or word. hahah It was exhilarating to be around her. We were just friends and I will always love her and have fond memories of her. Her life was too short. I imagine she could have built some kind of empire if she had more time.

In general I do not feel intimidated or unworthy. Sometimes self-conscious or angsty since they will point out things that others don't notice. Then I have to address the issues inside myself while they go about their life sort of unaware of what they actually stirred up in me. It is like they will speak their mind, in the moment, and let it go but I need to pursue it and reconcile it within before I can move onto something else.

[Olimpia]

I'll give you 3000 usd if you can convince a SLE to go to the opera or theater.

Here, an SLE theatre actor/enthusiast!
What about the money now? Haha.

[songofsappho]

Oh, hey -- I started this thread

I asked my bf about this and it seems he thought I didn't/wouldn't like him when we first started going out. I asked him why he kept asking me out, then, and he said he wanted to go out w me and had nothing to lose, haha. Anyway, now we each think the other is pretty okay, and this initial stage faded fairly fast.

Duality is really interesting... this is not my first dual romance, but it is by far the best I've experienced. It's true that duality isn't everything, but my goodness how things can flow w a dual <3

[Zero11]

Can I feel like my dual is unworthy?

well I guess it works in both directions

[Beautiful sky]

I'll give you 3000 usd if you can convince a SLE to go to the opera or theater.

Ok

Seriously, there are great many SLE who enjoy classical music; two of my SLE friends are PhD music theorists who enjoy all sorts of music and I've had many SLE friends who took acting classes with me.

[Amber]

Ok

Seriously, there are great many SLE who enjoy classical music; two of my SLE friends are PhD music theorists who enjoy all sorts of music and I've had many SLE friends who took acting classes with me.

yes, I know they can have a flair for the dramatic (in the purest sense of the word) ...but it looks like you live in a totally different world. The "best" of SLE I know are into sciences or have quite "fine" professions such as lawyers and surgeons. I've never had any SLE teacher, for instance ...and I'm kind of curious. Otherwise probably all types were "represented" in this field and I have a solid idea about the way type can influence teaching methods / style.

[Ananke]

I'll give you 3000 usd if you can convince a SLE to go to the opera or theater. I did meet SLEs with more "intellectual" interests (two were on postdoc programs in chemistry&physics), but artistic sensitivity was almost inexistent. I checked out a short film festival on Impermanence with a SLE once and he couldn't even stand watching till the end, so bored by anything addressing immaterial matters he was. If you took him to noisy thrilling places like clubs, pop concerts, or amusement parks, he was your man.

I go to the opera regularly and I just took my kids to the theater. I enjoy all sort of culture, from opera to techno. So I made it easy for her to find an SLE enjoying it.

[Words]

yes, I know they can have a flair for the dramatic (in the purest sense of the word) ...but it looks like you live in a totally different world. The "best" of SLE I know are into sciences or have quite "fine" professions such as lawyers and surgeons. I've never had any SLE teacher, for instance ...and I'm kind of curious. Otherwise probably all types were "represented" in this field and I have a solid idea about the way type can influence teaching methods / style.

Hmmm, going by Jung

A snippet of extraverted sensing

"Upon the lower levels this is the man of tangible reality, with little tendency either for reflection or commanding purpose. To sense the object, to have and if possible to enjoy sensations, is his constant motive. He is by no means unlovable; on the contrary, he frequently has a charming and lively capacity for enjoyment; he is sometimes a jolly fellow, and often a refined æsthete. [p. 459]

In the former case, the great problems of life hinge upon a good or indifferent dinner; in the latter, they are questions of good taste. When he 'senses', everything essential has been said and done."

Opera for instance can be a question of experiencing and good taste, or teaching fine arts an interest in it due to the refinement of taste.

I also know an SLE female who is an aspiring actress and has family who act and already been on regular TV shows/plays etc.

[Ananke]

Areas, literally (places): I usually stay at home or go to university, or an opera, or a theatre for example – most SLEs do not seem to be into that, or go there.
Areas, figuratively (topics): I am really into literature. Also, most SLEs seem not to be "patient" enough to read a lot. (They rather "do" things.)

I suppose most of these observations are based on SLE-Se impressions.

I'm an SLE-Se, and I enjoy culture a lot. I go to electronic music parties, I go to festivals, I go to the opera, I go to see street art, I like visiting art exhibitions, I travel for architecture, I enjoy all sort of creative talents, I can go on and on and on - I am quite picky, though, and I want very good quality, for all of this.

As for reading, I did a lot of it when I was a child, but somehow I haven't had time/care to read much after I grew up.

My SLE son reads a lot still, and also just went with me to the theater and has enjoyed operas with me before. He likes it as much as he loves his action movies, but he's also quite picky about quality. If it's boring, he will say so out loud. He's 9. It's about quality and experience rather than type, I think - I don't like all opera, it has to be the right voices, the right story, the right music, the right set, the right room, the right mood, etc. But then again, i don't like all Hollywood movies either. I'm picky and quality conscious in general.

[Olimpia]

I'm an SLE-Se, and I enjoy culture a lot. I go to electronic music parties, I go to festivals, I go to the opera, I go to see street art, I like visiting art exhibitions, I travel for architecture, I enjoy all sort of creative talents, I can go on and on and on - I am quite picky, though, and I want very good quality, for all of this.

As for reading, I did a lot of it when I was a child, but somehow I haven't had time/care to read much after I grew up.

My SLE son reads a lot still, and also just went with me to the theater and has enjoyed operas with me before. He likes it as much as he loves his action movies, but he's also quite picky about quality. If it's boring, he will say so out loud. He's 9. It's about quality and experience rather than type, I think - I don't like all opera, it has to be the right voices, the right story, the right music, the right set, the right room, the right mood, etc. But then again, i don't like all Hollywood movies either. I'm picky and quality conscious in general.

Oh, that is really interesting. Maybe this relates to Enneagram type. Do you know yours?

[yifflord]

I've never felt intimidated by my dual in the sense that I feel as if they're inherently better than me or anything like that but I do get performance anxiety. I worry about whether I'm being interesting enough or funny enough and whether I'll be able to maintain the conversation for the entire time we're together. Boring my dual is something I worry about a lot. In my experience SLIs are not good at carrying the conversation if it happens to lull on my end. I've been having second thoughts on going on a trip with a good SLI friend of mine because I'm afraid that we'll run out of things to say and she'll grow tired of my company as a result.

[Beautiful sky]

I go to the opera regularly and I just took my kids to the theater. I enjoy all sort of culture, from opera to techno. So I made it easy for her to find an SLE enjoying it.

I love you, Ananke.