Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 42

Thread: Duality?

  1. #1
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Amongst the stars
    TIM
    EII/INFj E9w1sp
    Posts
    4,078
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Duality?

    Would you expect duals to have consistent communication problems and misunderstandings? Not just every once in awhile, randomly, but about the same kinds of things and over and over and over. How about expectations of behavior or reactions that don't ever get met? Is a regular grating and sense of mismatch normal dual feeling?

    For example, one party naturally assuming things to remain stable, and the other assuming things keep changing. You might think that reflects Static/Dynamic, as per what you'd see in two duals, but should it cause constant friction? Should it cause a deep divide in the way the world is perceived and dealt with, and thus how the two parties deal with each other?

    How about something like expectations of initiation? If one party expects the other to initiate and to push to get their way, but the other does not naturally operate like that...? What then? Two "cold"s(introverts)? Or differing subtypes?

    What about regularly bringing out the worst in each other?

    What about focussing on different parts of the conversation, often completely missing each other's points and meanings?

    Can you explain things like that away? Could it be caused by non-socionic things? Like differences in culture, upbringing, gender, worldview...? Or are such things strong indications of a general lackage of dual-ness? Is it possible for duals to have a really hard time communicating?

    I'd like to know what the rest of this particular socionics community thinks of this. And, yes, in case there is any question, I am indeed being serious here.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  2. #2
    xerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,464
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Would you expect duals to have consistent communication problems and misunderstandings? Not just every once in awhile, randomly, but about the same kinds of things and over and over and over. How about expectations of behavior or reactions that don't ever get met? Is a regular grating and sense of mismatch normal dual feeling?
    I've had communication breakdown with almost every dual I've met.. at first. Then things take a 90 degree turn towards creepy levels of mutual understanding.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

  3. #3
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Amongst the stars
    TIM
    EII/INFj E9w1sp
    Posts
    4,078
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    I've had communication breakdown with almost every dual I've met.. at first. Then things take a 90 degree turn towards creepy levels of mutual understanding.
    How long and how much communication does it take for that turn to take place?

    The kind of communication I'm referencing is long term, btw, with the symptoms even perhaps getting worse over time.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  4. #4
    xerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,464
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    How long and how much communication does it take for that turn to take place?

    The kind of communication I'm referencing is long term, btw, with the symptoms even perhaps getting worse over time.
    What's happened to me usually: in the 1st stage the ISFp makes fun of me for being clumsy, being too theoretical, having my head in the clouds, and/or being really energetic. I think of the ISFp as a bit simple. We still "get" each other's communication styles though.

    In the 2nd stage things enter a lull where we begin to respect each other and constructively laugh at each other's jokes. Things are sort of neutral at this stage.

    In the 3rd stage we actually begin to defend each other. And so on.

    This takes some months to a year. In one of them, it actually took 3 years of highschool to get to the second stage.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

  5. #5
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I pretty immediately was on the same wavelength with my husband, but I can't say for sure it's been that way with every SLI. If it's been happening for a while, I think the most likely reason is that one of the two people involved is mistyped.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  6. #6
    Lobo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    TIM
    EII 6w5
    Posts
    2,080
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well, I do believe that such disagreements can take place. Duality, and any other socionics relation, is purely information based, and does not take into account other factors, such as upbringing, culture, etc. At least for me, I've met ESTjs that I didn't particularly get along with and vice-versa... The only thing I can contribute to what you're asking is that yes, those things can happen, but I would attribute them more so to aspects outside of socionics. Also, I would generally consider duality as being prone to misunderstandings, since each party likes their information in a certain way.

    You mentioned that your bad side is brought out. Assuming it's not violence, what do you mean by this? Using verbal attacks?

  7. #7
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Would you expect duals to have consistent communication problems and misunderstandings? Not just every once in awhile, randomly, but about the same kinds of things and over and over and over. How about expectations of behavior or reactions that don't ever get met? Is a regular grating and sense of mismatch normal dual feeling?

    For example, one party naturally assuming things to remain stable, and the other assuming things keep changing. You might think that reflects Static/Dynamic, as per what you'd see in two duals, but should it cause constant friction? Should it cause a deep divide in the way the world is perceived and dealt with, and thus how the two parties deal with each other?

    How about something like expectations of initiation? If one party expects the other to initiate and to push to get their way, but the other does not naturally operate like that...? What then? Two "cold"s(introverts)? Or differing subtypes?

    What about regularly bringing out the worst in each other?

    What about focussing on different parts of the conversation, often completely missing each other's points and meanings?

    Can you explain things like that away? Could it be caused by non-socionic things? Like differences in culture, upbringing, gender, worldview...? Or are such things strong indications of a general lackage of dual-ness? Is it possible for duals to have a really hard time communicating?

    I'd like to know what the rest of this particular socionics community thinks of this. And, yes, in case there is any question, I am indeed being serious here.
    you point out a couple of traits that are also often seen in conflictors. That's strange.

    But well, yeah there is some misunderstanding in duals, but compared to other relationships it's not really often.

    I think that I don't recognize that much in your post. Duality is usually relaxed and trusted, respect and understanding.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,276
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yes, I've had all of those things happen with duals. It's a different sort of mismatch than it is with an LSI. Mismatches with duals more likely result from maturity levels or lifestyle. For instance, with my ex, there were a lot of expectations we brought into the relationship based on our previous experiences and our own stupidity. (lol) Another SLI - we just can't get past the awkward conversations and humor mismatches. I don't know why. Maybe we just got off on the wrong foot due to other circumstances. I don't know what would correct it. It's not bad, just awkward. I would say that things have definitely gotten worse, in the awkward sense, but perhaps they'll get better later.

    It took me 8 years to break the ice with another one.

    There's a difference between those types of mismatches and being around an LSI. I can literally feel the difference in thinking when I interact with them. I can sense that they have a sequential order to their thinking and I'm (unintentionally) throwing them off-base. SLIs follow my train of thought automatically, even if they don't agree. A lot of what they say is a page from my own head, even if I want to hit them really hard for other reasons.

    My ex brought out a side of me that I didn't like at all, but it had to do with maturity levels and silly presumptions.. and more than a little paranoia based on his past behavior and lifestyle. It only got worse as we were together. But in other ways I still grew a lot while I was with him.

    I don't know. There can be a deep divide between myself and SLIs, but it's a different sort of divide than with other types.
    IEE

  9. #9
    redbaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,321
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    that really does not sound like duality to me... I dunno. I'm wondering if one of the two persons are mistyped. I mean, "regularly bringing out the worst in each other"? And even if there are misunderstandings for whatever reason, they're easily overcome when the types are duals, even in beginning stages.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  10. #10
    Blaze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    5,725
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    sounds more like conflict than duality. if you think about it would be easy to mistake your conflict for your dual...

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

  11. #11
    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Originally from black hole, currently residing in Jupiter
    TIM
    EIE-Ni
    Posts
    1,166
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If the person confuses you pretty much all the time...but yet you have no conflicts with him...could this be duality?

  12. #12
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Amongst the stars
    TIM
    EII/INFj E9w1sp
    Posts
    4,078
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    This takes some months to a year. In one of them, it actually took 3 years of highschool to get to the second stage.
    Was this 3 years of close contact and regular interaction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I pretty immediately was on the same wavelength with my husband, but I can't say for sure it's been that way with every SLI. If it's been happening for a while, I think the most likely reason is that one of the two people involved is mistyped.
    It's definitely been happening for awhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akra View Post
    That's been my experience, yes. I think it probably has a lot to do with the two duals being "out of synch" with each other in a lot of ways, such as importance or perceived closeness and potential. When two people are out of synch that much...

    From my blog post on duality and potential: "And being able to pass through a hurricane unscathed...means nothing if it's on a road to nowhere."

    It might be "neat" that duality lets you pass through that hurricane whereas you'd die with any other socionics type connection...but you still have to ask yourself if it's worth it in the first place. I don't think it's worth it just for the sake of being able to do it, and if the people are that out of synch it just might not be worth continuing to try. That's something that must be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

    My best friend (IEE) has always advised me, through several bad relationships, of the following: If it's the right person, I promise you--it won't feel like so much work. I believe her.
    I'm not so concerned about it being "the right person" so much as... well, 1) I really would like there to be less conflict, and 2) figuring out if there are glitches in my socionics understanding.

    What you said makes me think, though - if getting through a hurricane unscathed but not getting anywhere is pointless, then would getting somewhere be worth a scathing hurricane? Are there destinations worth the scathing? And is there a point where it isn't worth it? Those are other questions that come to mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Well, I do believe that such disagreements can take place. Duality, and any other socionics relation, is purely information based, and does not take into account other factors, such as upbringing, culture, etc. At least for me, I've met ESTjs that I didn't particularly get along with and vice-versa... The only thing I can contribute to what you're asking is that yes, those things can happen, but I would attribute them more so to aspects outside of socionics. Also, I would generally consider duality as being prone to misunderstandings, since each party likes their information in a certain way.
    Yeah, that's kind of what I think, too. I mean, they do have "clubs" (NFs, SFs, etc.) for a reason; they like the same kinds of things and tend to hang out together doing the same kinds of activities. So I can see how "opposing" clubs could run into conflict if only because they do things differently. But wouldn't you think that things like common quadra values, especially long-term, would win out and pave the way for mutual understanding and cooperation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    You mentioned that your bad side is brought out. Assuming it's not violence, what do you mean by this? Using verbal attacks?
    Yes, verbal attacks, lashing out, and just general annoyance, irritability, defensiveness... offensiveness... Sometimes, for myself, I find myself getting uptight, exacting, attempting to control too much, demanding (in the sense that I place the bar higher), critical of failure, etc. It's really not very pleasant at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    you point out a couple of traits that are also often seen in conflictors. That's strange.
    What would those be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    But well, yeah there is some misunderstanding in duals, but compared to other relationships it's not really often.

    I think that I don't recognize that much in your post. Duality is usually relaxed and trusted, respect and understanding.
    That's kind of the image that I have of duality, too. I don't necessarily expect it right away, and I can even fairly easily accept that there could be problems, even severe ones, initially. But it's the long-term aspect of this that's kind of tickling my is-this-really-right button.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiny_dancer View Post
    Yes, I've had all of those things happen with duals. It's a different sort of mismatch than it is with an LSI. Mismatches with duals more likely result from maturity levels or lifestyle. For instance, with my ex, there were a lot of expectations we brought into the relationship based on our previous experiences and our own stupidity. (lol) Another SLI - we just can't get past the awkward conversations and humor mismatches. I don't know why. Maybe we just got off on the wrong foot due to other circumstances. I don't know what would correct it. It's not bad, just awkward. I would say that things have definitely gotten worse, in the awkward sense, but perhaps they'll get better later.

    It took me 8 years to break the ice with another one.

    There's a difference between those types of mismatches and being around an LSI. I can literally feel the difference in thinking when I interact with them. I can sense that they have a sequential order to their thinking and I'm (unintentionally) throwing them off-base. SLIs follow my train of thought automatically, even if they don't agree. A lot of what they say is a page from my own head, even if I want to hit them really hard for other reasons.

    My ex brought out a side of me that I didn't like at all, but it had to do with maturity levels and silly presumptions.. and more than a little paranoia based on his past behavior and lifestyle. It only got worse as we were together. But in other ways I still grew a lot while I was with him.

    I don't know. There can be a deep divide between myself and SLIs, but it's a different sort of divide than with other types.
    Thanks, this is all good info. It's not so much awkwardness as just bad feelings and misunderstanding. And, yeah, maturity or experience might have something to do with it. On my part as well as theirs.

    If it isn't too personal, would you mind expanding on what "silly presumptions" entailed?

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    that really does not sound like duality to me... I dunno. I'm wondering if one of the two persons are mistyped. I mean, "regularly bringing out the worst in each other"? And even if there are misunderstandings for whatever reason, they're easily overcome when the types are duals, even in beginning stages.
    I should mention that it's not all horrible. There are times when communication is decent, even good, helpful, and fun. It's just the bad stuff happens with regularity, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Same. Duals tend to automatically incite positive reactions from the other despite the lack of seeing where the other person is coming from, but usually there is a natural tendency to aim for the middle ground and then keep going from there.
    Part of the problem seems to be that middle ground is so hard to come by, especially when the conversations get deeper/more intense. It's like each side has their own view of things, their own thoughts, and creating overlap is difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    sounds more like conflict than duality. if you think about it would be easy to mistake your conflict for your dual...
    I suppose it would also be easy to mistake your dual for your conflictor.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  13. #13
    xerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,464
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Was this 3 years of close contact and regular interaction?
    ~6hours a day. 5 days a week
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

  14. #14
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Amongst the stars
    TIM
    EII/INFj E9w1sp
    Posts
    4,078
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    ~6hours a day. 5 days a week
    Hmm... interesting... Thanks.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  15. #15
    Creepy-Diana

    Default

    .

  16. #16
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Amongst the stars
    TIM
    EII/INFj E9w1sp
    Posts
    4,078
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Akra View Post
    If it was truly getting somewhere...it be worth going through a lot of conditions, in my opinion. The problem is being able to tell which is which and what is what, I think. That's what I've been working on being able to better discern, anyway.
    Yeah, discerning what gains are worth what costs. And if perhaps I could find a way to pay that doesn't cost so much. I'm not always the best with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    What are your thoughts?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  17. #17
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I sometimes have relationships like this with ILIs - good a lot of the time but serious miscommunications part of the time. I really wonder if you've got this person mistyped. Like, with ILIs, I see the Fe PoLR and they seem something like SLIs to me. But the relationship is not the same.

    I disagree with the people who say that this is normal for a relationship with a dual. I think they've mistyped one or the other person too.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  18. #18
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Minde, how certain are you of the type of the person?

    Cause at least 6 people who posted here say it sounds more like conflict and cannot relate it to duality.

    I think if you are 100% certain then we can continue to debate what's wrong with that duality, buy if you are not 100% certain, then I think it's fair to conclude that we have the answer to why the described duality seems bad.

  19. #19
    Creepy-Diana

    Default

    .

  20. #20
    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    6,724
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    My parents are duals. Lousy communication.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  21. #21
    Lobo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    TIM
    EII 6w5
    Posts
    2,080
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Yeah, that's kind of what I think, too. I mean, they do have "clubs" (NFs, SFs, etc.) for a reason; they like the same kinds of things and tend to hang out together doing the same kinds of activities. So I can see how "opposing" clubs could run into conflict if only because they do things differently. But wouldn't you think that things like common quadra values, especially long-term, would win out and pave the way for mutual understanding and cooperation?
    Well, it's a complicated question to answer... Personally, I don't trust that socionics will be able to predict all of the interactions someone will have with any given type. But theoretically, what you are saying should be true, in that in time the understanding becomes better. However, if there are problems in communication, than this mutual understanding might be delayed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Yes, verbal attacks, lashing out, and just general annoyance, irritability, defensiveness... offensiveness... Sometimes, for myself, I find myself getting uptight, exacting, attempting to control too much, demanding (in the sense that I place the bar higher), critical of failure, etc. It's really not very pleasant at all.
    Yeah, I know the feeling.

  22. #22
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I explained this about two years ago but,

    IMO Duality isn't about understanding. You have your Identical and other relationships for that. Duality is more about body-kinetic (sp?) movement, about natural bio-rhythmic movements in corporeal space and time. It is a natural non-neurotic process that helps you flow through real reality better and take on actual challenges. Ie it's very 'real world.'

    People romanticize duality, but you can really have that same 'romancey epic' feeling with other types in your quadra (as well as your semi-dual). It's mostly a physical thing.

    People who think their Identicals are 'stale' are being silly as I would wager that if you want romance, Identical is better than Duality. A healthy person probably has a relationship with both though, and keeps their Identical, Dual, Activity and Mirror closeby. Ideally that would make you the healthiest.

    Put it this way. A sperm and egg don't have to like each other but a sperm and egg makes something, a physical baby. Something is occurring outside of the psychological neurological process. Something 'greater than the sum of its parts.' Y'all are overemphasizing somebody 'understanding you.' Your Supervisor understands you more than your Dual by the way. But your dual is still much more better for you.

    People want duals to be their 'everything' but other types are going to give you a lot of things your dual can't. Not one person can be your 'everything' please let go of that dumb fairytale now please, you are stronger than that. And besides you wouldn't even really want that to be true anyway.

  23. #23
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Duality is about valuing the same information elements, therefore duals should have at least pretty good communication. If two people are, over a long period of time, unable to communicate with each other, those people are very unlikely to be duals. I'd say that's more likely in person than online though.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  24. #24
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    TIM
    Introvert sp/sx
    Posts
    7,739
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    People want duals to be their 'everything' but other types are going to give you a lot of things your dual can't. Not one person can be your 'everything' please let go of that dumb fairytale now please, you are stronger than that. And besides you wouldn't even really want that to be true anyway.
    Some people say part of the reason so many relationships don't last is because we Westerners have built up this huge pedestal for the romantic relationship where the other person is this huge all end all. They're supposed to be your best friend. They're supposed to take care of all your emotional needs. Maybe some people can handle that, but it does sound kind of ridiculous to expect everyone to.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

  25. #25
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Relationships don't last for lots of reasons.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  26. #26
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah, it's like whoa you're dealing with a human being, don't you think you're being a little too demanding? That's a lot of pressure to put on people anyway.

    I still value long-term, committed relationships though, but my view on relationships are just very liberal.

    Many different people can make you happy in so many ways. There are those that still feel like the 'one' and are very compatible.

    But I don't see how if I fall in love with somebody else, that it diminishes my love I feel for the other person. I thought sometimes I wanted to just stay tied down with somebody forever and look in their eyes for eternity and be really romantic, but I realize the only reason why I felt that way was because, we both had our own lives, our own space, our own independence, and while I still valued those very romantic things- I never really wanted to do them 24/7. They were so special because they were so rare and I didn't get them a lot. If I got to do it all the time, I wouldn't like them. Or it's like you know, eating too many sweets.

  27. #27
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Amongst the stars
    TIM
    EII/INFj E9w1sp
    Posts
    4,078
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I sometimes have relationships like this with ILIs - good a lot of the time but serious miscommunications part of the time.
    Yeah, that's kind of how it is - good a lot of the time, but then things get bad and I'm not sure where it comes from all the time or how to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I really wonder if you've got this person mistyped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Minde, how certain are you of the type of the person?
    For the record, I've only given myself a type. I was not the one(s) who came to the conclusion about the other person's type. I do think this person, apart from our communication issues, displays many characteristics of an ESTj, so until I started trying to figure out why we don't communicate the best I didn't really have any strong objections to them being considered an ESTj.

    At the moment, I'm not outrightly rejecting the idea that they're ESTj, but I am considering that it might be related to subtype (in addition to possible other factors). For example, the expectations of wanting the other to initiate different things. As a Fi subtype, I'm more reserved and reticent than the Ne subtypes who tend to be more forthcoming about their thoughts/feelings and more likely to directly influence the direction of things. If they're a Si subtype, they may be expecting me to be more Ne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Cause at least 6 people who posted here say it sounds more like conflict and cannot relate it to duality.

    I think if you are 100% certain then we can continue to debate what's wrong with that duality, buy if you are not 100% certain, then I think it's fair to conclude that we have the answer to why the described duality seems bad.
    I'm not debating anything, I'm exploring possibilities and seeking possible answers and explanations for what I'm seeing and experiencing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    It's just something I hadn't considered - although I have considered the flip side - that you might mistake a conflictor for a dual.

    I had assumed mistaking conflictor for dual would come from expecting almost any person to be like what you'd expect from a dual, a sort of unconscious seeking of complementarity. And the club similarities might throw a person off as well. But hadn't given the reverse much thought.

    What do you think would cause a person to mistake their dual for their conflictor (besides club similarities?) I mean, someone who you've interacted with enough to have an idea of how you relate to each other, not just a stranger.
    Hm, I'm not sure. It just seemed a logical flip-around at the time. In addition to club there's also the extroverted temperament. As I'm sure you know, according to model A, your dual's 7th and 8th functions contain the same IEs that are your conflictor's 1st and 2nd, so perhaps if you see your dual when they're using - like in situations when they feel they have to? - those 7th and 8th functions then it could possibly end up repelling you.

    Also, sometimes first impressions tend to last. So you could run into your dual, see them when they're being particularly [whatever their club is] or when they're using their strong but unvalued functions and then just write them off as someone you don't want to get to know better. They could remind you of people you do know well who you don't like. I mean, it seems that often people will develop an attraction to someone and become convinced that they're duals; and even when it's obvious to others that they're not, they still hang on to the idea. So I suppose it could be kind of the reverse, too. But I don't know if that really answers your question about people you've known for awhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    IMO Duality isn't about understanding. You have your Identical and other relationships for that.
    I tend to agree with that some, and that is kind of what I was getting at with clubs. For example, I feel I can often understand Beta NFs well, I can sort of resonate with how their minds/feelings work, it's just that we value different things and so end up going in different directions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Duality is more about body-kinetic (sp?) movement, about natural bio-rhythmic movements in corporeal space and time. It is a natural non-neurotic process that helps you flow through real reality better and take on actual challenges. Ie it's very 'real world.'
    Do you think, then, that duality must - by necessity - work better in a "real" environment? As in, purely verbal communication, like online, would not be able to constitute the full dual experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    Duality is about valuing the same information elements, therefore duals should have at least pretty good communication. If two people are, over a long period of time, unable to communicate with each other, those people are very unlikely to be duals. I'd say that's more likely in person than online though.
    What do you mean about online vs in person?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  28. #28
    I've been waiting for you Satan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Behind you
    TIM
    sle sp/sx 845
    Posts
    4,956
    Mentioned
    137 Post(s)
    Tagged
    15 Thread(s)

    Default

    love is free

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Yeah, it's like whoa you're dealing with a human being, don't you think you're being a little too demanding? That's a lot of pressure to put on people anyway.

    I still value long-term, committed relationships though, but my view on relationships are just very liberal.

    Many different people can make you happy in so many ways. There are those that still feel like the 'one' and are very compatible.

    But I don't see how if I fall in love with somebody else, that it diminishes my love I feel for the other person. I thought sometimes I wanted to just stay tied down with somebody forever and look in their eyes for eternity and be really romantic, but I realize the only reason why I felt that way was because, we both had our own lives, our own space, our own independence, and while I still valued those very romantic things- I never really wanted to do them 24/7. They were so special because they were so rare and I didn't get them a lot. If I got to do it all the time, I wouldn't like them. Or it's like you know, eating too many sweets.

  29. #29
    redbaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,321
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I do think duality works better in real life. not to say that you can't pick up on some of that online--absolutely you can. but in order to get the full benefits it's gotta be in the real world.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  30. #30
    I've been waiting for you Satan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Behind you
    TIM
    sle sp/sx 845
    Posts
    4,956
    Mentioned
    137 Post(s)
    Tagged
    15 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I do think duality works better in real life. not to say that you can't pick up on some of that online--absolutely you can. but in order to get the full benefits it's gotta be in the real world.
    i agree

  31. #31
    redbaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,321
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    i agree
    dual.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  32. #32
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I do think duality works better in real life. not to say that you can't pick up on some of that online--absolutely you can. but in order to get the full benefits it's gotta be in the real world.
    yeah, this. And that you can misread people more online. you don't get tone, body language, etc.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  33. #33
    Trevor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,860
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Duality is of limited influence when it comes to getting along with someone. It doesn't account for everything. However, here, on the forum, the intertype relations are our sunshine, they're all we have because we deliberately rejected other stuff and now we have to deal with it. We have to pay the price for our ignorance. Therefore we have to agree that duality is the best thing man can experience.

  34. #34
    EffyCold thePirate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    TIM
    ??
    Posts
    1,897
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I explained this about two years ago but,

    IMO Duality isn't about understanding. You have your Identical and other relationships for that. Duality is more about body-kinetic (sp?) movement, about natural bio-rhythmic movements in corporeal space and time. It is a natural non-neurotic process that helps you flow through real reality better and take on actual challenges. Ie it's very 'real world.'

    People romanticize duality, but you can really have that same 'romancey epic' feeling with other types in your quadra (as well as your semi-dual). It's mostly a physical thing.

    People who think their Identicals are 'stale' are being silly as I would wager that if you want romance, Identical is better than Duality. A healthy person probably has a relationship with both though, and keeps their Identical, Dual, Activity and Mirror closeby. Ideally that would make you the healthiest.

    Put it this way. A sperm and egg don't have to like each other but a sperm and egg makes something, a physical baby. Something is occurring outside of the psychological neurological process. Something 'greater than the sum of its parts.' Y'all are overemphasizing somebody 'understanding you.' Your Supervisor understands you more than your Dual by the way. But your dual is still much more better for you.

    People want duals to be their 'everything' but other types are going to give you a lot of things your dual can't. Not one person can be your 'everything' please let go of that dumb fairytale now please, you are stronger than that. And besides you wouldn't even really want that to be true anyway.
    wow man, very insightful post.

    yes, this correlates with my experience of duality. I have definitely noticed the physical aspect of it playing a bigger role then emphasized. Your identical assertion is also spot- on. I haven't thought about your supervisor understanding you more, but I could see how this would work and it seems very, very plausible.

    Ultimately, I do think duality is the best type of relationship. The deep appreciation of each other, sharing of mutual values, natural care of each others needs, and respect and admiration for each other just has an effect on the psyche that I dont think can be matched by other relations. I dont see how.

    You are responsable for yourself and your life. In the long run your well-being rests on you. So yes, idealizing it is a fantasy.That's why I dont neccessarily agree with avoiding certain types or only being friends with certain types(other then maybe one or two), as various do supply certain viewpoints and philosophies, etc that contribute to growth that you may not learn just inside your quadra.

    In any case, great post man.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

  35. #35

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    233
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post

    People who think their Identicals are 'stale' are being silly as I would wager that if you want romance, Identical is better than Duality. A healthy person probably has a relationship with both though, and keeps their Identical, Dual, Activity and Mirror closeby. Ideally that would make you the healthiest.
    What makes you think identical is best for romance?

    I would say duality makes the best partnership. Mirror and activity great for friendships. Identicals are good too but you feel your duals presence/absence much more IMO....they feel more valued.
    With that said I experience a lot of animosity between every same sex dual at work....with the exception of one....whom I'm close to. All the EIE guys I'm cool with though, lol.

  36. #36
    07490's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    there
    Posts
    3,047
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    What makes you think identical is best for romance?

    I would say duality makes the best partnership. Mirror and activity great for friendships. Identicals are good too but you feel your duals presence/absence much more IMO....they feel more valued.
    With that said I experience a lot of animosity between every same sex dual at work....with the exception of one....whom I'm close to. All the EIE guys I'm cool with though, lol.
    laugh out loud!
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

  37. #37
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Personal experience. And well 'romance' means different things to different people. Some people only think they have a relationship unless 'something happens' which has always been weird to me.

  38. #38
    07490's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    there
    Posts
    3,047
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    What makes you think identical is best for romance?

    I would say duality makes the best partnership. Mirror and activity great for friendships. Identicals are good too but you feel your duals presence/absence much more IMO....they feel more valued.
    With that said I experience a lot of animosity between every same sex dual at work....with the exception of one....whom I'm close to. All the EIE guys I'm cool with though, lol.
    I have seen it countless times exactly what you have went through at work too, just maybe something about gender role and people play...
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

  39. #39
    Blaze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    5,725
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    With that said I experience a lot of animosity between every same sex dual at work....with the exception of one....whom I'm close to. All the EIE guys I'm cool with though, lol.
    this is interesting. shakealittle, why do you think it happens this way? i don't know that i've experienced it with duals per se, but i notice gender has a big influence on attraction and communication with all types.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

  40. #40

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    TIM
    IEE, enfp
    Posts
    181
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I explained this about two years ago but,

    IMO Duality isn't about understanding. You have your Identical and other relationships for that. Duality is more about body-kinetic (sp?) movement, about natural bio-rhythmic movements in corporeal space and time. It is a natural non-neurotic process that helps you flow through real reality better and take on actual challenges. Ie it's very 'real world.'

    People romanticize duality, but you can really have that same 'romancey epic' feeling with other types in your quadra (as well as your semi-dual). It's mostly a physical thing.

    People who think their Identicals are 'stale' are being silly as I would wager that if you want romance, Identical is better than Duality. A healthy person probably has a relationship with both though, and keeps their Identical, Dual, Activity and Mirror closeby. Ideally that would make you the healthiest.

    Put it this way. A sperm and egg don't have to like each other but a sperm and egg makes something, a physical baby. Something is occurring outside of the psychological neurological process. Something 'greater than the sum of its parts.' Y'all are overemphasizing somebody 'understanding you.' Your Supervisor understands you more than your Dual by the way. But your dual is still much more better for you.

    People want duals to be their 'everything' but other types are going to give you a lot of things your dual can't. Not one person can be your 'everything' please let go of that dumb fairytale now please, you are stronger than that. And besides you wouldn't even really want that to be true anyway.
    i agree. i think duality is like alchemy in that it is the pursuit of turning lead into gold. if there is alot of unhealthyness in a person there will be alot of kicking and screaming going on before either one changes their ways. i think it's interesting that chemistry is the study of change, when the chemistry is right between two people they both have an opertunity to change. i've had my eyes opened to alot by my sli, depressing things that i would rather ignore but i was ignoring them at my peril and am now in a much stronger position having my eyes prized wide open by him. god was i an idiot before? a naive fool!

    i think your dual wont give you what your ego wants but they will give you what your soul wants which is really in your best interests since pandering to the ego is very bad for the self. take one look at bono and you will know exactly what i mean. maybe this is where the term soulmates comes from?
    Last edited by humblepie; 09-15-2010 at 12:51 AM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •