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Thread: Proposed DCNH Descriptions for Each Type

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Default Proposed DCNH Descriptions for Each Type

    I've been studying Gulenko's DCNH subtype system for quite a while now, and I think I have a solid enough understanding of it to fill in some of the holes. As far as I know, Gulenko never did write up DCNH descriptions for each of the 16 types. While the general correlations I discovered between the Meged/Ovcharov & Gulenko descriptions of the standard subtype model and the DCNH subtype model are interesting, I don't think they should be relied upon definitively. Ultimately, unless someone can find descriptions by Gulenko, it'll be up to us to come up with them.

    I've started with LII, being the type I know most intimately. These descriptions are not based on any other descriptions; instead I tried to base them on a combination of functional analysis, and behavioural analysis of the LIIs whose DCNH subtypes I have been able to determine.

    DCNH Subtype Descriptions for LII

    Dominant: tries to influence the world by his wisdom and intellect, in an almost Machiavellian way. People are chess pieces to be influenced in the right direction, in pursuit of his goal. He does this, not because he enjoys it, but because he feels it is necessary. He prefers to take a back seat from the action, directing and guiding others, but he will step in himself if he must. When the weight of the world is not on his shoulders, he may reveal a mirthful sense of humour, but this is seldom.

    Creative: has a sort of reserved openness about him. Can be very absent-minded; you may occasionally find him quietly pacing about, staring off into space, mumbling to himself, a frown of concentration on his face. He is defined by his curiosity; he wants to learn how everything works, and why everything is the way it is. As far as he is concerned, learning is its own reward, and he is baffled that others do not feel the same way. He can be oblivious of social problems, sometimes even oblivious of other people entirely. He has a strong ironic wit, and may use sarcasm as a weapon. Conscious of his appearance, he tries to dress well, but if he has lost himself in his studies for a few days (as he is known to do), he may appear rumpled and wild-haired.

    Normalizing: appears stern, emotionless, robotic. Gives the impression of solidity, stability, and immovability. Attempts to make him show emotion almost always fail. His primary focus is on logically and ethically correct systems and behaviour. In any given task, he hones in on what is most important, and ignores all distractions, almost as if he is not a part of the world around him. Deconstructs abstract and theoretical problems with ease. Can be sharp and unforgiving, intentionally or otherwise. Clothing is very conservative, neat and tidy.

    Harmonizing: at his best, he gives the impression of sublime tranquility, at his worst, nervous awkwardness. He tries to create harmony, resolve problems, and avoids violence. He likes nothing more than a comfortable evening hanging out with a few good friends -- he is probably the most easygoing and sociable of the LIIs. He may come across as a "loveable geek".

    Constructive feedback (i.e., feedback you can back up with logic and evidence) is appreciated. I'm not entirely certain of the Harmonizing description, and to a certain degree, the Dominant. But I'm pretty confident of the Creative and Normalizing descriptions.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Creepy-Diana

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    I followed diana's link to some trippy communist utopian website.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    Creepy-Diana

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I'm a secret communist.


    Heh, I was trying to find more info on the DCNH stuff, and that's what a google search gave me - a forum in Lithuanian with a post containing a link to another forum in Russian.
    Your Google-fu is stronger than mine! I was not able to find anything like this, even using Russian search words!
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
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    This is great Krig. Can't wait to see the DCNH descriptions for the other socionic types.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Harmonize - šitoksai Rob-peacemaker, a little more "white and fluffy" than griežtokam and užsispyrusiam should be subject to what, under the idea should be a basic white logic. In contrast to the dominant, it is just a soft human experience, and often it is actually available. His typical stubbornness did not disappear, but it becomes more of an internal category - it will not take no principles push their issues and come to the aid easy opponent, but of what is important to him, the fight for the truth directly from the principle of "live or die." This is the paradoksaliausias subtype: if, when at any other IMTipą unlike man, the LII is also neiškrenta, "but why, demons, hell, and it is duck?"
    HA! So I was right! Revolutioniaries like Robespierre or Che Guevara are Harmonizing Analysts, indeed.

    I think that was one of the facts I stated and was attacked for

    Possible stereotypes might be:

    Dominant Analyst: Teacher of mathematics
    Creative Analyst: Researcher (like Gulenko)
    Normalizing Analyst: Jurist or Officer
    Harmonizing Analyst: Revolutionary (like Che)
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Oh Jesus fucking christ.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Oh Jesus fucking christ.
    What can I do you for, you heathen prick?
    EII-Ne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Oh Jesus fucking christ.
    Jesus Christ might have been a Harmonizing Analyst (H-LII) but I think he was a Harmonizing Humanist (H-EII).

    Or didn't you mean that?
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
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    You find a man who thinks that and I'll find a hundred moneychangers and Pharisees who'd disagree.

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    If you two don't quit talking about me in the past tense, you'll both soon find the tables turned.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Just some revising on the DCNH thing,

    As I understand it, D types strengthen both the Te and Fe
    H types strengthen both the Si and Ni
    C types strengthen both the Se and Ne
    N types strengthen both the Ti and Fi

    Yar?

    I can see this, I suppose from a functional POV, take for instance the D sub type:

    As Te increases, Ti goes down, the corresponding DS function of Ti is Fe, so therefore the use of Fe goes up (and it's opposite function Fi, therefore goes down). So in this circumstance, you have a type which puts more emphasis on their Te and Fe.

    Same thing seems to apply to all the H, C and N, by having a rather quick look at it.

    So, I suppose, one couldn't be for instance, a C-SLI (eg) if they were a SLI-Te, because they would therefore be by the DCNH system, a D-SLI? Maybe obvious, but I thought it was an interesting clarification point for those who normally use the two sub type system. Maybe those who don't really have a sub type on the 2-sub type system would have a sub type on the 4 sub type system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    So, I suppose, one couldn't be for instance, a C-SLI (eg) if they were a SLI-Te, because they would therefore be by the DCNH system, a D-SLI? Maybe obvious, but I thought it was an interesting clarification point for those who normally use the two sub type system.
    Yes, that is true. I tried to explain it but was called a "fuckstick" and "schmuck" for knowing the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Maybe those who don't really have a sub type on the 2-sub type system would have a sub type on the 4 sub type system.
    People who dont have a subtype certainly don't exist. There are just people who don't know their subtype.
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
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    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    Erm if you really need lithuanian translations I might be bothered to do them, depending on how much you need to translate. Anyway maybe it will make sense then as the text I see is quite jiberish .
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    I mean "but why, demons, hell, and it is duck?" certainly makes sense, but the rest, not so much.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Here's my attempt at cleaning up the translations of the site Diana linked to. I don't speak Russian, so I used all the Internet-based translators and Russian-English dictionaries available to me. Hopefully this is something close to accurate.

    Note: she seems to be using "Rob" as short for Robespierre, aka, LII.

    DCNH LII subtype descriptions by Irina Šamanajevos, original article here: Подтипы в соционике

    Normalizing Rob - very similar to its standard description, very rational, orderly, gets to the bottom of everything, boring, talks in long complicated and compound sentences. An exaggeration, of course, but there is something in this.

    Creative - something similar to Don Quixote [ILE], absent-minded, sometimes restless, sometimes inhibited, has lively inquisitive eyes, is inclined to be guided by the notion of "interesting" and not "right", rather highly scattered, the generator of ideas, only half of which (at best) lead to anything. The description of Gorenko-Tolstikova depicts just such an LII.

    Dominant - it can be taken for black logic. It is confident in himself, in what he is doing and what he aspires to. Is able to and loves to work; the Gamma notion of "efficiency" is not just an empty phrase for him (but with a difference from Gamma in that "is able" comes first rather than "loves" - the values of Alpha are not thrown away). Separates the primary from the secondary in his life without excessive reflection. As a rule, alert and cheerful; an inner strength is felt in him.

    Harmonizing Rob - a sort of peacemaker, slightly "soft and fluffy" for the rigid and stubborn person which, in theory, base white logic should be. In contrast to the Dominant, he just gives the impression of a gentle man, and often he really is. His type's stubbornness has not gone anywhere, but it has become more of an internal category - he will not press unimportant matters, he will readily go meet an opponent, but if it is significant to him, he will defend the truth literally to the death. This is the most paradoxical subtype: that instance where no other man does not look like TIM, from LII also did not fall out, "But why the hell is he so nice?"


    I'm not sure what that last line means, but I think it's talking about Harmonizing LIIs are unusually nice for LII.

    Actually, I'm kidding, the proper translation of that last bit is "but why, demons, hell, and it is duck?"

    And Che, that description of Harmonizing Robespierre sounds like one of the least likely people in the socion to be a revolutionary. Dominant or Creative, maybe, but Harmonizing? You're seeing what you want to see, man.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    N INTj sounds like a very loveable past forum member...

    Last edited by ArchonAlarion; 11-19-2009 at 05:56 AM.
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    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I'm not sure what that last line means, but I think it's talking about Harmonizing LIIs are unusually nice for LII.
    Yeh, the idea of that sentence is such. Meaning that although it fits all LII descriptions and does not remind of any other type he is just unusually nice and peacfull for LII aswell.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

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    Someone should come up with a DCNH Subtype Test; even better a socionics test that also measures DCNH subtype

    BTW Quaere Verum is the motto of the International Society for Philosophical Enquiry, of which I am a member...

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    I've partially rewritten the Dominant and Harmonizing descriptions of the LII subtypes, based on insights from the descriptions Diana posted. Like I said, this is a work in progress, so any constructive feedback would be great.

    LII Subtypes

    Mental Ring Subtypes

    Normalizing: appears stern, emotionless, robotic. Gives the impression of solidity, stability, and immovability. Attempts to make him show emotion almost always fail. His primary focus is on logically and ethically correct systems and behaviour. In any given task, he hones in on what is most important, and ignores all distractions, almost as if he is not a part of the world around him. Deconstructs abstract and theoretical problems with ease. Can be sharp and unforgiving, intentionally or otherwise. Clothing is very conservative, neat and tidy.

    Creative: has a sort of reserved openness about him. Can be very absent-minded; you may occasionally find him quietly pacing about, staring off into space, mumbling to himself, a frown of concentration on his face. He is defined by his curiosity; he wants to learn how everything works, and why everything is the way it is. As far as he is concerned, learning is its own reward, and he is baffled that others do not feel the same way. He can be oblivious of social problems, sometimes even oblivious of other people entirely. He has a strong ironic wit, and may use sarcasm as a weapon. Conscious of his appearance, he tries to dress well, but if he has lost himself in his studies for a few days (as he is known to do), he may appear rumpled and wild-haired.

    Vital Ring Subtypes

    Dominant: more confident and outwardly-focused than the other LII subtypes. He tries to influence the world by his wisdom and intellect, in an almost Machiavellian way. The world is his chessboard, and people and things are his chess pieces, to be moved about strategically in pursuit of his goal. He does this, not because he enjoys it, but because he feels it is necessary. Goal-oriented; when he decides upon a goal, he will analyze the situation, choose the best strategy for acheiving it, and then follow through until the goal is acheived. However, he does not like to be on the front lines; he feels his skills are best used directing and advising others, and will only take action himself if it is necessary. When not in "business mode", he can be quite mirthful and good-humoured. Good at socializing, when necessary.

    Harmonizing: gives the impression of softness. Not as resolute as the other LII subtypes. While he does have an internal logical and moral system, he doesn't express it very much, especially if doing so will create tension. He tries to create harmony, resolve problems, and avoids violence. He likes nothing more than a comfortable evening hanging out with a few good friends -- he is probably the most easygoing and sociable of the LIIs. He may come across as a "loveable geek".

    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    BTW Quaere Verum is the motto of the International Society for Philosophical Enquiry, of which I am a member...
    Neat. I've thought about trying to join one of those smart-people groups, but it's always seemed like it would be more of a hassle than a benefit, assuming I did get in.

    I'm not entirely certain of the grammar of the Latin in my signature. Latin grammar is very complicated.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post

    Harmonizing Rob - he will not press unimportant matters, he will readily go meet an opponent, but if it is significant to him, he will defend the truth literally to the death. This is the most paradoxical subtype

    And Che, that description of Harmonizing Robespierre sounds like one of the least likely people in the socion to be a revolutionary.
    What the heck...?

    "He will defend the truth literally to the death". Isn't that a sentence of your description? If you replace "truth" by "ideology" you have exactly a Robespierre or Che Guevara or Osama bin Laden.

    That's why this subtype is called the most paradoxical subtype which is also a statement of your description. Both Che Guevara and Osama bin Laden are known as very nice people. Nevertheless, they defend their ideas of truth and justice literally to the death.

    How many H-LIIs do you know personally?

    Peter Parker (Spider-Man), Magneto (X-Men) and Captain Picard (Star Trek) are very good examples of H-LIIs. Do you see why this subtype is so paradoxical - Magneto is known as a super-villain. Nevertheless, he only fights for freedom and justice (literally to the death)...
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
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    the Omniscient Nexus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    What the heck...?

    "He will defend the truth literally to the death". Isn't that a sentence of your description? If you replace "truth" by "ideology" you have exactly a Robespierre or Che Guevara or Osama bin Laden.

    That's why this subtype is called the most paradoxical subtype which is also a statement of your description. Both Che Guevara and Osama bin Laden are known as very nice people. Nevertheless, they defend their ideas of truth and justice literally to the death.

    How many H-LIIs do you know personally?

    Peter Parker (Spider-Man), Magneto (X-Men) and Captain Picard (Star Trek) are very good examples of H-LIIs. Do you see why this subtype is so paradoxical - Magneto is known as a super-villain. Nevertheless, he only fights for freedom and justice (literally to the death)...
    I think all that is turning you into a γ; in fact, all I really notice about you is your criticality, expertise, and creative extroverted logic...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    I think all that is turning you into a γ;
    into a WHAT?
    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    in fact, all I really notice about you is your criticality, expertise, and creative extroverted logic...
    I don't understand what you mean...
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    into a WHAT?
    He meant "into a Lambda". A newly discovered quadra.

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    By the way. You do not "look" as a mathematician to me. Are you even German ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    into a WHAT?
    I don't understand what you mean...
    That is the Greek letter gamma (lowercase); lack of understanding is not typical of -creating or -accepting...more things I think you misunderstand...Osama Bin Laden, understanding, ideals, introverted judging, extroverted perceiving, subjectivity, reasoning, etc. The fact that you identify highly with an icon as your avatar shows to me implies creative extroverted judging; the fact that you would so grossly misjudge Osama Bin Laden seems very Ni-accepting indeed. I am sure if you were in the WTC during 9/11 your introverted intuition would be accepting something quite different indeed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd
    By the way. You do not "look" as a mathematician to me. Are you even German ?
    Jaja, ich bin Deutscher. Ich wohne in Flensburg, bin 26 Jahre alt und studiere Mathematik an der Fachhochschule Flensburg. Läuft allerdings eher schlecht als recht und ich bin mir noch nicht ganz darüber im klaren, ob ich es zuende studieren oder lieber abbrechen und Berufsrevolutionär werden soll

    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli
    That is the Greek letter gamma (lowercase);
    It looks like a "y". A lowercase gamma normally has rounded forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli
    lack of understanding is not typical of -creating or -accepting...
    SEIs are -creative and misunderstand a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli
    Osama Bin Laden, understanding, ideals, introverted judging, extroverted perceiving, subjectivity, reasoning, etc. The fact that you identify highly with an icon as your avatar shows to me implies creative extroverted judging;
    Bullshit.
    1.) I don't "identify highly" with my avatar
    2.) "creative extroverted judging" means ISFp, INFp, ISTp or INTp - I am definitely none of those types, especially not Gamma-Quadra (INTp)
    3.) I don't understand how identifying with someone implies anything concerning the creative function. Maybe it implies something concerning the quadra...

    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli
    the fact that you would so grossly misjudge Osama Bin Laden seems very Ni-accepting indeed. I am sure if you were in the WTC during 9/11 your introverted intuition would be accepting something quite different indeed...
    How do I misjudge him? I just stated the fact that Osama bin Laden fights for freedom and justice. George W. Bush did not invade Afghanistan and Iraq because of freedom and justice but because of ressources, power and elections. You see the difference?
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
    DCNH rox

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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    Jaja, ich bin Deutscher. Ich wohne in Flensburg, bin 26 Jahre alt und studiere Mathematik an der Fachhochschule Flensburg. Läuft allerdings eher schlecht als recht und ich bin mir noch nicht ganz darüber im klaren, ob ich es zuende studieren oder lieber abbrechen und Berufsrevolutionär werden soll

    It looks like a "y". A lowercase gamma normally has rounded forms.

    SEIs are -creative and misunderstand a lot

    Bullshit.
    1.) I don't "identify highly" with my avatar
    2.) "creative extroverted judging" means ISFp, INFp, ISTp or INTp - I am definitely none of those types, especially not Gamma-Quadra (INTp)
    3.) I don't understand how identifying with someone implies anything concerning the creative function. Maybe it implies something concerning the quadra...

    How do I misjudge him? I just stated the fact that Osama bin Laden fights for freedom and justice. George W. Bush did not invade Afghanistan and Iraq because of freedom and justice but because of ressources, power and elections. You see the difference?
    No, I don't see the difference. Your signature is misleading, but I didn't take you for a static or a rational. Osama Bin Laden doesn't fight he runs. He looks at war as a personal financial enterprise which he funds because he is rich and opinionated, much like George Bush. For an α you are not very subjective...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Your signature is misleading, but I didn't take you for a static or a rational.
    My signature is not misleading but clarifying. I'm a static rational with a dynamic irrational subtype. I can't see your problem. Maybe you are not familiar with the DCNH system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Osama Bin Laden doesn't fight he runs. He looks at war as a personal financial enterprise which he funds because he is rich and opinionated, much like George Bush.
    No, that's not correct. Bin Laden was a Mujahid in the war against the Sovjet Union. He is not a financier but a fighter. Instead of G.W.Bush he doesn't fight for ressources, power or results of the election. He fights for freeing the Arabic world from the Soviet, American and Israeli aggression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    For an α you are not very subjective...
    Yeah, maybe. I try to be objective, of course.
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
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    the Omniscient Nexus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    My signature is not misleading but clarifying. I'm a static rational with a dynamic irrational subtype. I can't see your problem. Maybe you are not familiar with the DCNH system?

    No, that's not correct. Bin Laden was a Mujahid in the war against the Sovjet Union. He is not a financier but a fighter. Instead of G.W.Bush he doesn't fight for ressources, power or results of the election. He fights for freeing the Arabic world from the Soviet, American and Israeli aggression.

    Yeah, maybe. I try to be objective, of course.
    I am afraid that you have misunderstood yet again...

    from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_b...in_Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Mujahideen in Afghanistan
    After leaving college in 1979 bin Laden joined Abdullah Azzam to fight the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan[44] and lived for a time in Peshawar.[45] By 1984, with Azzam, bin Laden established Maktab al-Khadamat, which funneled money, arms and Muslim fighters from around the Arabic world into the Afghan war. Through al-Khadamat, bin Laden's inherited family fortune[46] paid for air tickets and accommodation, dealt with paperwork with Pakistani authorities and provided other such services for the jihad fighters. He moved to Peshawar in 1994.[citation needed] Osama established a camp in Afghanistan, and with other volunteers fought the Soviets. It was during his time in Peshawar that he began to wear camouflage-print jackets and carrying a captured Soviet assault rifle, which urban legends claimed he had obtained by killing a Russian soldier with his bare hands.[47]
    Anyway, I have better things to do than argue with a would-be terrorist. Good day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Anyway, I have better things to do than argue with a would-be terrorist. Good day.
    I'm not a would-be terrorist but I also have better things to do than argue with an imperialistic American soldier.

    The Arabic world will be free. Cuba will be free. America will be defeated!
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    Jaja, ich bin Deutscher. Ich wohne in Flensburg, bin 26 Jahre alt und studiere Mathematik an der Fachhochschule Flensburg. Läuft allerdings eher schlecht als recht und ich bin mir noch nicht ganz darüber im klaren, ob ich es zuende studieren oder lieber abbrechen und Berufsrevolutionär werden soll
    Höchst interessant, was ich da lese. Lustiger Typ, bist du.

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    it says each type. not only LII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    it says each type. not only LII.
    That's the spirit. Pick one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    it says each type. not only LII.
    I'm confident that the descriptions in this thread are a good approximation. To me it's obvious that Gulenko and Meged/Ovcharov describe different DCNH-subtypes though they describe the same accepting/producing-subtypes.
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    it says each type. not only LII.
    Haha, sorry, I work slow.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    seems like Normalizing is the LII-1, Creative LII-5, Dominant LII-3, Harmonizing LII-9.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    I'm not a would-be terrorist but I also have better things to do than argue with an imperialistic American soldier.

    The Arabic world will be free. Cuba will be free. America will be defeated!

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    Is anyone able to localize Russian DCNH descriptions?




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