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Thread: Archon = Ne INTp?

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Default Archon = Ne INTp?

    What does this even mean? In what way have I shown myself to be a dynamic type, Ip, serious quadra, and Ni>Ne?

    Please explain/elaborate.

    I'm looking for Che Guevara's thoughts, but obviously anyone else can contribute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    What does this even mean? In what way have I shown myself to be a dynamic type, Ip, serious quadra, and Ni>Ne?

    Please explain/elaborate

    I'm looking for Che Guevara's thoughts, but obviously anyone else can contribute.
    Someone who has not still got rid of the MBTI crap could have written this: MBTI INTPs "have" Ne.

    IMO, AA's Ti-ENTP FTW
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    What does this even mean? In what way have I shown myself to be a dynamic type, Ip, serious quadra, and Ni>Ne?
    Ne-INTp = Creative Critic = C-ILI

    A copy of my last private message:

    If your mother is interested in philosophy, politics and socionics I am sure she is not ESFj.

    My aunt is Fe-ESFj and she is in no way interested in theoretical things like that. My mother is Fe-ENFj and I often discuss with her about theoretical things.

    Don't you think your mother could be intuitive? Philosophy is something you need for. Would you please compare the ESFj and ENFj descriptions?

    My assumption:
    You are INTp.
    Your mother is ENFj.

    That would be a good explanation for
    1.) your appearence and your behaviour (ILI-like)
    2.) your mothers interests ( -like)
    3.) the great relation you have.
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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Okay, you probably shouldn't post private messages in threads without the other person's permission, just saying.

    Also, it is likely that you are about to get destroyed, because I think that even people who don't think I'm ENTp will disagree vehemently with you that ESFj are uninterested in philosophy.
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    1.) Because of my V.I. skills I definitely know you are not ILE. You look like some ILIs I know.

    2.) You love to critizise.

    3.) The description on socioniko.net fits.

    4.) Gulenko's subtype description of the Intuitive Critic fits.

    Okay, you probably shouldn't post private messages in threads without the other person's permission, just saying.
    Sorry. I thought it would help us here and I wanted an answer to my message.

    Also, it is likely that you are about to get destroyed, because I think that even people who don't think I'm ENTp will disagree vehemently with you that ESFj are uninterested in philosophy.
    I just described my experience concerning my ESFj-aunt. is certainly an important function for complex theories and ESFj's vulnerable function. So your mother might be intuitive.

    In what way have I shown myself to be a dynamic type, Ip, serious quadra, and Ni>Ne?
    Ni > Ne is not so obvious because is the function strenthened due to your subtype. Introverted is not so obvious, either, because you are an extraverted subtype.

    Gulenko says: "Frequently gets stuck in details" - you see what I mean? You have read about all the unnecessary details like dynamic/static, quadra values and so on but you probably paid too little attention to the type descriptions.

    I have read the type descriptions over and over again, internalized them, compared them to all the people I know. Things like dynamic/static and quadra values don't help very much. Sergei Ganin even emphazises the hidden agenda (mobilizing function) and things like that.

    I think the most important point is to get an inuitive understanding of the type descriptions. Just forget all the other stuff. Don't compare single functions, single IEs, quadra values, Reinin dichotomies. It doesn't help.
    Last edited by CheGuevara; 11-11-2009 at 08:17 PM.
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    Archon is the merriest of the merries, I don't see how anyone could see anything other than alpha for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    I think the most important point is to get an inuitive understanding of the type descriptions. Just forget all the other stuff. Don't compare single functions, single IEs, quadra values, Reinin dichotomies. It doesn't help.
    This is terrible advice. Everything mentioned above is just as important as everything else, nobody can be effectively typed by simply observing one aspect.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    If we are going by type descriptions, then ENTp fits me best. Hand-fucking-down.

    The only INTp description that could work for me is the one on wikisocion, which was mostly written by Alpha NT's describing themselves.

    I am an introverted subtype ENTp, please stop being ridiculous and zealously wrong.
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    Juvenile shindaiwa21's Avatar
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    Where the hell do I even start?

    You need Ni for Philosophy, with the exception of all the Ne philosophers. Good case... next.

    Only INTp's out of all 16 types can criticize. Oh totally, I'm sure that's true.

    If your mother is ENFj, that means she has an Si PoLR, so clearly she would never be able to give birth, because you can't control your pelvic muscles without Si...

    Maybe your ESFj aunt has spongy brain from prion infested beef, just like you...

    Ignoring quadras is like a fighter pilot saying he bombed the brick building, and he's really sorry that brick building turned out to be in Israel instead of Iraq (he must have gotten lost because he didn't have Se so he couldn't see the map). If you can't get the quadras, ie figure out the valued functions, how are you EVER going to get the specif type right, since a type is defined by the order of its functions? Some description on wikisocion that says all ISTp's are mechanics? I guess we should go through everyone typed as ISTp and get rid of anyone who isn't a mechanic.

    Arctures: delta just produces boring people
    Arctures: but that's how we like it

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctures View Post
    This is terrible advice. Everything mentioned above is just as important as everything else, nobody can be effectively typed by simply observing one aspect.
    I didn't say one aspect. I said comparing type description is how it works.

    I don't type people by analyzing details. First I type by comparing a person to the type descriptions, then I just know the details.

    Quote Originally Posted by shidaiwa21
    You need Ni for Philosophy, with the exception of all the Ne philosophers.
    Do you know any ESFj, ESTj, ESFp or ESTp philosophers? These are the types with weak . I don't know any.

    Quote Originally Posted by shidaiwa21
    Only INTp's out of all 16 types can criticize. Oh totally, I'm sure that's true.
    That's not what I said. It's the way he critizises.

    Quote Originally Posted by shidaiwa21
    Ignoring quadras is like a fighter pilot saying he bombed the brick building, and he's really sorry that brick building turned out to be in Israel instead of Iraq
    I didn't say "ignore quadras". I'm just of the opinion that quadra values like serious/merry are not very useful for the typing process.

    Quote Originally Posted by shidaiwa21
    If you can't get the quadras, ie figure out the valued functions, how are you EVER going to get the specif type right, since a type is defined by the order of its functions?
    Oh, really? I didn't know that. So every type has a different order of functions? That sounds quite interesting.

    I didn't even know what "functions" are 10 minutes ago. I'm a student of mathematics so I thought
    f(x)=x^2 would be a function for example.
    Last edited by CheGuevara; 11-11-2009 at 11:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    What does this even mean? In what way have I shown myself to be a dynamic type, Ip, serious quadra, and Ni>Ne?

    Please explain/elaborate.

    I'm looking for Che Guevara's thoughts, but obviously anyone else can contribute.
    since you've been posting around here, I think you are the most clear example of an ILE-ti there is.

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    1.) We can type ArchonAlarion by dichotomies. Then we have X N T p.
    2.) We can type him by descriptions. He says INTp on wikisocion fits but he doesn't trust the authors.
    3.) We can type him by Visual Identification. Then he is obviously INTp.

    We could discuss about things like
    1.) functions
    2.) relations

    We should not discuss about useless details like
    1.) Reinin dichotomies
    2.) quadra values like serious/merry
    3.) temperaments like IP or EP
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    If Archon is Ne like you say, then what makes him INTp? That part doesn't seem to be clear.

    I also have an overall difficult time seeing Archon as Ne anything.

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    "Just forget all the other stuff. Don't compare single functions, single IEs, quadra values, Reinin dichotomies." ignore quadra values

    Both ESFp's and ESTp's have stonger Ni than any Alpha or Delta... Ayn Rand for one... Plus there are craploads of politicians, who philosophize, they just actually do things instead of sit in cabins writing books. Bottom line, if you won't type anyone capable of "Philosophizing" as one of those 4-types, of course you won't find any philosophers when you look at your type lists. Any type can philosophize, and they will do it with their quadras valued functions.

    "2.) You love to critizise." real specific....... how is his criticism so INTp. And actually, he hasn't really criticized you much considering how much criticizable material you've put up...

    Arctures: delta just produces boring people
    Arctures: but that's how we like it

    vero: who needs a real person
    vero: That's why I date an SLI

    dolphin: someone tell gulanzon adjusting shower water to the right temperature is not si

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    DCNH. Creative is Se or Ne.
    Do you like this style of Socionics? If so, what link is there to read from?

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    There is so much which needs to be qualified. For one thing, we aren't even sure what it MEANS to be INTp-Ne. That has never been explained functionally. Infact, none of DHCN has been explained functionally. since you're Ne subtype, your Ne is stronger says nothing to us about how or why it is stronger. There is no mechanical basis for what you are saying. For this reason you are not taken seriously. If there is some merit to what you're saying, I expect you can explain yourself on this mechanical level
    Quote Originally Posted by shindaiwa21 View Post

    "2.) You love to critizise." real specific....... how is his criticism so INTp. And actually, he hasn't really criticized you much considering how much criticizable material you've put up...
    lol
    INTp

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    Archon's probably not IEI, and certainly not ILI. At this point I think that an imature, post-pubescent ILE is the best suggestion, as unlikely as that typing might have seemed at first.

    fyi, ILEs at his age are usually pretty shy when meeting people in real life. Less so online, probably.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Archon's probably not IEI, and certainly not ILI. At this point I think that an imature, post-pubescent ILE is the best suggestion, as unlikely as that typing might have seemed at first.

    fyi, ILEs at his age are usually pretty shy when meeting people in real life. Less so online, probably.
    Yeah, we're delicate flowers. Don't hate!


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    Arctures: delta just produces boring people
    Arctures: but that's how we like it

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    vero: That's why I date an SLI

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    fyi, ILEs at his age are usually pretty shy when meeting people in real life. Less so online, probably.
    fwiw, and Isha can vouch for me here, once I get past the shyness I'm fairly animated/my usual self.

    I'm not sure what happened with Jake along those lines.

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    I'm such a enigma! =)
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    Philosophy is something you need for.
    Seriously che.. you're just embarrassing yourself. You need to understand the theory before you start making conclusions about it.

    Those who have strong/valued Ni may be more inclined towards philosophy, but an interest in philosophy is no where near a strong indicator of type, nor does that mean that those without strong/valued Ni won't take interest in philosophy.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    Do you know any ESFj, ESTj, ESFp or ESTp philosophers? These are the types with weak . I don't know any.
    I do philosophy, and I think an ESE would be interested in that, strong or no. (Of course for ESE the answer is "no.")

    has some philosophy, but not all philosophy.



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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    I seriously never once considered INFp for myself. ever. I read the descriptions, knew those types of people, and never once thought it was me.

    I am not interested in ESTp's either. They seem cool, but just no. Herzy, Mercutio, JWC3 all cool people, do NOT feel duality. I think they'd feel the same. Ezra (who most of you think is ESTp) has stated that he does not feel I'm INFp. Ashton and FDG who have been typed as ESTp DEFINITELY do not think I'm their dual and will proclaim so quite loudly!

    God, even when I thought i was INTp I secretly liked the idea of ISFp's.

    INFp is a ludicrous typing for me. Please stop it already.
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    I have always like introverted girls especially dreamy artsy ones lol. In MBTI i liked INFP's and ISFP's fwiw.

    But skimming over the SEI domain the first time kinda filled me with affection and I was like "shittttttt" cuz as an INTp I should not have liked it.

    Obviously my enjoyment of ISFp's is deeper than this. They tend to be forgiving, patient, soothing, and kinda spacey. This is the kind of person I need.

    Someone to "take a vacation with" mentally. I'm so anxious and combative all the time. I really prefer a peacemaker to quiet me down and put things in perspective. The eternal arguer needs the mediator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    Do you know any ESFj, ESTj, ESFp or ESTp philosophers? These are the types with weak . I don't know any.
    SLE: Lenin, Mao Tse Tung, Ayn Rand
    LSE (maybe LIE): William James
    SEE: Confucius
    ESE: your mom
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    ESE: your mom
    lmfao
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    SLE: Lenin, Mao Tse Tung, Ayn Rand
    LSE (maybe LIE): William James
    SEE: Confucius
    ESE: your mom
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    Do you know any ESFj, ESTj, ESFp or ESTp philosophers? These are the types with weak . I don't know any.
    This is what we call 'availability heuristics'.
    Anyways I'd call Ayn Rand a perfect example of an ESTp philosopher.
    Last edited by Galen; 11-12-2009 at 07:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    If Archon is Ne like you say, then what makes him INTp? That part doesn't seem to be clear.
    He is an INTp with strenghened because of his subtype. He thinks of himself as MBTI-INTP ~ . That's why he is of the opinion he can't be INTp in Socionics. His subtype confuses him.

    Quote Originally Posted by shindaiwa21
    Both ESFp's and ESTp's have stonger Ni than any Alpha or Delta
    You must be joking. is their suggestive function, the weakest function after the vulnerable function. That's for fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by shindaiwa21
    You love to critizise." real specific....... how is his criticism so INTp.
    I assume your self-typing is correct. So just look at your first post in this thread. You don't criticize "with a dose of biliousness" as Gulenko describes Creative Critics. You criticize with irony and sarcasm instead of calling me a "fuckin noob" as Archon did. That's one of the differences between ILI and ILE.

    Quote Originally Posted by shindaiwa21
    And actually, he hasn't really criticized you much considering how much criticizable material you've put up
    You see what I mean? That's not the way an ILI critizes. Ne-ILIs might say: "You stupid fuckin idiot have no idea about Socionics at all".
    ILI --- biliousness
    ILE --- sarcasm

    Quote Originally Posted by shindaiwa21
    Infact, none of DHCN has been explained functionally. since you're Ne subtype, your Ne is stronger says nothing to us about how or why it is stronger. There is no mechanical basis for what you are saying.
    Some ILIs have stronger , others have stronger . I can't see any problem there. People of the same type are not identical persons. There are dominant ILIs, creative ILIs and so on. Just look at the people you know personally and you will realize it is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by shindaiwa21
    Those who have strong/valued Ni may be more inclined towards philosophy, but an interest in philosophy is no where near a strong indicator of type
    Oh yes, it is an indicator. Every interest is an indicator of valued functions. Don't you think so? There are many ways to arrive at one's destination, of course. I know students of mathematics who are IEE with as vulnerable function. They solve mathematical problems primarily with their intuition. There are others who are LSI and - vulnerable so they solve mathematical problems with their logic. But I don't know any ESE mathematicians. Sensing and feeling doesn't help much there.

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2
    SLE: Lenin, Mao Tse Tung, Ayn Rand
    LSE (maybe LIE): William James
    SEE: Confucius
    Oh my god, not again celebrity typing, please. I really hate that. Pure speculation. But I'd say:

    Lenin - LII
    Mao - EIE
    Rand - not sure, MBTI practitioners say INTJ
    James - not sure
    Confucius - LII

    You should rather analyze the people you know personally. Celebrity typing is just speculation.
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
    DCNH rox

  33. #33
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    sigh...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  34. #34
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    Oh my god, not again celebrity typing, please. I really hate that. Pure speculation. But I'd say:
    Aren't you the one speculating on the types every single philosopher, celebrity or no, can not be?

    Lenin - LII
    Mao - EIE
    Rand - not sure, MBTI practitioners say INTJ
    James - not sure
    Confucius - LII
    How much of their writings, philosophy, and biographies are you familiar with? and MBTI??? Reeeeeeeeeaaaally?

    You should rather analyze the people you know personally. Celebrity typing is just speculation.
    Ok, in my philosophy class I had an SLE, an LSE, an ESE, and an SEE. We were good buds. They fit the descriptions of type.

    ^ obviously you would not be convinced by this, would likely say they are mistypings, and would bemoan the fact that you have no access to really making any judgements of type. Hence the celebrity factor. It's less than ideal, of course, but it's better than "I know this dude that's XXX and lieks phil0sophy."

    Also, I know all those people personally.

    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    How much of their writings, philosophy, and biographies are you familiar with? and MBTI??? Reeeeeeeeeaaaally?
    I certainly don't know enough because I don't know them personally. That's why typing celebrities doesn't make much sense to me. MBTI practicioners are not always wrong btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Ok, in my philosophy class I had an SLE, an LSE, an ESE, and an SEE. We were good buds. They fit the descriptions of type.
    OK. It happens. I just wanted to state the fact that statistics would show a correlation between and interest in abstract theories. Unfortunately there are no statistics.
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
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    Which part of the DDR are you from ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Which part of the DDR are you from ?
    I grew up in the Federal Republic of Germany, not in the German Democratic Republic. There are communists in the west, there are national-socialists in the east, you know?

    It rather depends on your type than on your country...
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    MBTI practicioners are not always wrong btw.
    Jesus christ, did someone resurrect phaedrus or something?

    Practiced MBTI practitioners probably have a very high likelihood of typing someone correctly...within the MBTI system. That means absolutely nothing with regards to Socionics type. Sometimes it can be indicative; others, its worth absolutely nothing. There used to be a member here, Kristiina, who was an INTJ in MBTI, and yet an EIE in Socionics. I myself am an INFP in MBTI and an EIE in Socionics. My sister is an ENFP in MBTI and an SEI in Socionics. The truth is that MBTI practitioners can be "wrong" or "right" all day about MBTI types, but in the end it has no strong correlations with Socionics. In some respects, the two theories interpret the same things differently; in others, they seek to interpret entirely different aspects of people's personalities. Reconciling the two is a fruitless pursuit that has been undertaken by numerous people who have passed through this forum, and all have either given up or been laughed away. You will be no different.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  39. #39
    Currently God Brilliand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheGuevara View Post
    OK. It happens. I just wanted to state the fact that statistics would show a correlation between and interest in abstract theories. Unfortunately there are no statistics.
    I think this applies equally to Intuition of both sorts...



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
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    Johari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    There used to be a member here, Kristiina, who was an INTJ in MBTI, and yet an EIE in Socionics. I myself am an INFP in MBTI and an EIE in Socionics. My sister is an ENFP in MBTI and an SEI in Socionics.
    I really don't think so. Sergei Ganin introduced 4-letter type names for Socionics types with 3 capital letters. That's not by chance. It means that an MBTI-introvert should be a Socionics-introvert, MBTI-intuitive people should be Socionics-intuitive and so on. The definitions of the dichotomies are not identical but very similar. The problem is only the functional model of MBTI which is not accurate.

    There are 3 problems at least:

    1.) People use tests to determine their type. That doesn't work and makes them think they are introverted in MBTI but extraverted in Socionics or something like that.
    2.) People read type descriptions and think: "MBTI-INFP fits best but Socionics-ISFp". Some people just are not sure about themselves so they can't decide which description fits best.
    3.) People don't use subtypes. That's why Archon thinks he is ENTp. He doesn't accept the fact that Crative Critics also have a lot of .

    Gilly, you are ENFj in Socionics. You are even an extraverted subtype. How could you be introverted in MBTI ?! The definition of introversion/extraversion is not very different there...

    Maybe this article might be interesting.
    Ni-INTj --- Harmonizing Analyst --- -
    DCNH rox

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