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Thread: Awesome thread on "smiling" and Fi vs Fe points of view

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    Thumbs up Awesome thread on "smiling" and Fi vs Fe points of view

    xkcd • View topic - Strangers telling women to "smile"


    An excerpt:

    Why should anyone be held responsible to demonstrate their feelings (but only the positive ones, mind) to strangers?

    Fuck that noise.
    Even "cheer up" and "be happy" are kindof dumb, because they run into the "Gee, why didn't I think of that?" problem. That is, if it were possible for me to just magically make myself happy (without committing inappropriate acts in public), I would already be happy. You walking up and reminding me would be wholly unnecessary. The fact that you think I (a) have this ability and (b) am so stone fucking dumb that I couldn't think to use it until you (saviour among men) came along and proposed it to me is just so patronizing.

    Always assuming here that you're being sincere. As sophy and meaux point out, even if you are, 99% of the people who do this aren't.
    ^ Fe PoLR FTW.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    There are few things in the world more annoying than being told by a random stranger to smile. It's like, why does this person care if I'm smiling?
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Depending on what mood I'd in, I'd either throw the person a grotesque grin or stare at them until they feel awkward and walk away.

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    I also can't stand being asked to smile. I don't really know what I do in response... it's probably different every time... If I actually like the person who's asking I'll probably try not to drive some wedge into things but it feels as though they don't really respect me as a person and how I might feel because they want me to "act happy" when I don't feel that way... it's that they want me to act any way that just feels like a really bad omen. And I might dwell on it later and go back and forth about what it means in terms of our relationship or association or whatever we are (if anything) because it often results in my not being sure if I can trust them and wondering why they do that. With strangers it's probably whatever occurs to me at the time that will allow me to get away from them as soon as possible.

    These are the sorts of reasons why I've considered Fe PoLR, but for some reason they are not enough... I can find other ways to explain them (Fe creatives for instance will try to affect the Fe around them, which is what they do to their supervisees... it would probably be more apparent if I could watch a recording of myself through out the day... I can't simply say that I don't like Fe because naturally I'm only aware of the Fe I do dislike... there could be more of it that I don't mind and don't realize is Fe... and I haven't really seen a way out of that conceptual mess yet) Not to mention that I can find ways to relate to Te PoLR as well.

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    I find it difficult to believe that women with strong Fe like it when random strange men tell them to smile.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    I don't think anyone really likes it... there are still people that do it though and I have no idea why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I find it difficult to believe that women with strong Fe like it when random strange men tell them to smile.
    Regardless of whether that's generally true or not, you can still see (or at least I can) specific posters' bias towards (or against) Fi and Fe in that thread; which I found to be very interesting.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Uh, I'm pretty sure Fe types don't give two shits whether or not you smile. A fake smile isn't what someone is really feeling.

    This is a pretty clear-cut Fe response from that thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondTalon
    Because, of course, you have to be SO EFFIN HAPPY 100% of the time. Dog got run over? SMILE! Just learned you have cancer at 23 and are looking forward to months of chemotherapy, sure you have a 75% chance of making it, but that means you have a 25% chance of not and are just trying to make sense of it all as you stagger home? SMILE! Got done at the dentist and have a mouth full of blood? SMILE!*
    Quote Originally Posted by SecondTalon
    Because people are dicks and would rather look at a pretty smiling lady than, you know, find out why she's upset or even take in to consideration that her natural face arrangement isn't one that screams "SO EFFIN HAPPY!" I mean, it's not like women have emotions or exist as anything beyond eye candy for the fellas, amirite?
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Alpha Fe. not beta

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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Alpha Fe. not beta
    Try again.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Depending on what mood I'd in, I'd either throw the person a grotesque grin or stare at them until they feel awkward and walk away.
    Lol. I like the second option haha.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Uh, I'm pretty sure Fe types don't give two shits whether or not you smile. A fake smile isn't what someone is really feeling.

    This is a pretty clear-cut Fe response from that thread:
    thank you!

    this is the most simplistic shit ever- to associate fake emotional expression and all that crap with Fe.

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    This girl at work always tells me to smile. She doesn't do it much either, so I don't take it too personally.

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    Very recently I've been looking up any changes regarding therapy techniques for borderline personality therapy. While, yes, there have been some decent changes in how it's viewed now, as well as some techniques that are interesting to try to see if they'd work, there are a couple that are still hair-ripping-annoying. One of which is the "Half Smile".

    The idea behind the Half Smile is that
    we smile when we are happy,
    so by at least half smiling, it might trigger happiness inside the person.
    A full smile wouldn't work because the body/mind would too easily recognize the inconsistencies.
    At least that's the idea.

    This smacks a bit too much of "we create our own realities" and "the law of attraction". 'If you smile then good things will come to you.' 'If you smile then people will respond more positively to you.' etc etc.

    Is it possible that it works? Maybe, I dunno. I try the Half Smile sometimes, but in all honesty, it seems to just make me more conscious of my feelings, as well as make my mouth/chin sore. In fact, since attempting it, I've found that I'm also clenching my jaw more and started grinding my teeth at night again. (don't u love those teeth falling out dreams?? argh!)


    As for how this relates to Fe/Fi, it is possible that
    * people associate it with Fe because smiling is a body signal which is what Fe pays attention to
    * people associate it with Fj because it's attempting to influence/control an emotion
    * people associate it with Fi because signaling that we are happy influences our relationships with others.

    But I think it would be wrong to attribute it as "Fe people are the ones who tell others to smile". If Fe notices the body signals a person puts out (even unconsciously), then surely they would notice when those signals don't match up with each other...when there is something off about the smile. In fact, I know that most INFp are especially sensitive to when those signals don't match . . . it often sends them into a downward spiral of self-doubt and distrust.

    Also, I can easily see some T type people saying something like that, due to not grasping the complexities of human emotions and their importance/influence. I can also see an FiSe saying something like as well. And an FeSi and FeNi too. And since I've gone this far, I'm fairly sure that other types T & F could easily say that, even unthinkingly, and/or with the best intentions behind it.



    Anyhoot...
    *waves hi to Parkster*

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    lol, I like O'Brien's post
    I'm a man and I'm not particularly feminine (nor masculine) looking but I occasionally get strangers telling me to "cheer up". This usually happens when I'm listening to music and my general response is: "OK, so the shape of my face means that when I'm not feeling any particularly strong emotions, I look like I'm frowning and angry. Before you stopped me, I wasn't but now that you have, and have made me take my headphones off, I am pretty pissed off. You might be thinking 'It's just a couple of seconds of music, so what?' but imagine you're having a really nice meal by yourself, so you just sit there doing nothing but eating and enjoying the meal. Now imagine some random stranger comes up to you and drags the plate away from you, just to make sure they have your attention, and says 'Enjoy your meal!'. That's how I feel about music. OK? Now please leave me alone."
    They usually leave with a look on their face that says 'What a weirdo. They clearly have some anger issues' but you know how everyone has their little tetchienesses? The things that will turn an otherwise calm, chilled out human being into a ball of anger and rage? Yeah, don't fuck around with my listening to music.

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    That last quote reminds me of how I've been told that I often look like I'm angry, especially when I'm concentrating on something (because I furrow my brows). But more generally also, I've been told I look sort of intimidating, which always makes me go like "what! me? no way!".

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    Definitely not Fe/Fi related; saying that "the people show biases towards Fi and Fe" is saying nothing more than "the people show biases towards and against bullshit social norms." Fake smiles for the sake of hollow satisfaction is not Fe-valuing; and understanding true inner feelings, which apparently the "Fe-valuers" want to suppress with facades, is not Fi-valuing.

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    lol, I like O'Brien's post
    same lol... my feelings are identical.
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    My impulse is to respond with an overly toothy grin, and then sometimes they just laugh, and then I laugh... and who really cares? :-P
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    I consider the issue a little bit differently - I don't think it's always a matter of Fi vs. Fe. I'll give you an example. My LIE sister-in-law seems to think that Fe should be used mechanically. In other words, you have to smile at specific times, laugh at specific times, shake hands at specific times, etc. I only smile, laugh, etc. in a spontaneous way. If someone says something funny, I laugh. If I feel like smiling, I smile. She gets annoyed because I don't smile for pictures. The fact of the matter is that I find smiling for pictures to be a mere formality that I don't want to have to be bothered with - smiling should be fun, and smiling for the flash of the camera isn't, IMO. Further, in real life, I smile and laugh much more than she does. The point of this is that I could easily imagine an Fe-Role type smiling often because it's "proper." And I could easily imagine an Fe-valuing type (perhaps Fe super-id or even Fe creative) smiling to make people happy, but not always wearing a big goofy grin - so I think that it depends more on the person, situation, etc.

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    ^ good post

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    I find some ESE will want you to smile whenever you see them. If you are unhappy, and they can't seem to tell, because they judge your internal state by how you show it externally. I find that annoying since most of us would rather be left alone when you are upset, but for them, the best way to release stress is some sort of ranting and letting it out, so they might not understand the withdrawal some people need.
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    I tend to smile because its proper, at least in the back of my head. So much of the time I won't notice if I'm smiling or making certain faces. It is not important for me to consider when I'm around people, and I get surprized when people comment on my mood, or rather what they think my mood is. I kind of know a lot more about it then they do, but that doesn't leave out the possibility that they want to cheer me up or want to alter my mood. I don't smile that much though. More toward the first post, I actually like it when certain people make me feel happy, but I don't like it when they try hard to do it. It's more of a relational thing though. I take it very personally and will except that person into my heart with care, depending if I think it's worth it in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 07490 View Post
    I find some ESE will want you to smile whenever you see them. If you are unhappy, and they can't seem to tell, because they judge your internal state by how you show it externally. I find that annoying since most of us would rather be left alone when you are upset, but for them, the best way to release stress is some sort of ranting and letting it out, so they might not understand the withdrawal some people need.
    This is on point IMO. I can't count the number of times I would walk into a room where my Si-ESE mother was, perhaps after watching a serious movie or talking on the phone, thus a bit reserved, to be greeted by a rather solicitous attitude which seemed to determine that "something was wrong with me" or that I was "being rude" when I didn't accord with the predefined emotional checklist possessed by the appraiser.
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