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Thread: School of Associative Socionics: Ethics in music

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    Default School of Associative Socionics: Ethics in music

    In this thread we can post music which contains very obvious aspect of ethics. It is usually melody, words and scenario in the video by which we recognise the aspect of ethics. Ethical introverts are sincere and ethical extraverts are passionate.



    Rain and tears all the same
    But in the sun, you've got to play the game
    When you cry in winter time
    You can't pretend, it's nothing but the rain

    Give me an answer of love I need an answer of love
    Rain and tears in the sun
    But in your heart, you feel the rainbow waves...
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    So, Ethics in music is Emo and Emoness? Just kidding...

    I think that the majority of music has (some or many) elements of Ethics, or at least, the majority of music that I listen to does...

    Perhaps I shall post some very obvious ones as you put it...



    Midnight, our sons and daughters
    Were cut down and taken from us
    Hear their heartbeat
    We hear their heartbeat

    In the wind, we hear their laughter
    In the rain, we see their tears
    Hear their heartbeat
    We hear their heartbeat

    In the trees, our sons stand naked
    Through the walls, our daughters cry
    See their tears in the rainfall.
    (That's very Rational Extraverted Feeling...)
    Last edited by Singu; 11-18-2009 at 11:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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    Tchaikovsky is so genius. I hope my life isn't going to be immensely frustrated because of it.



    Symphony 6, Movement 3! I just finished listening to the 1st and 2nd movement by Previn in depth.


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    Not certain if these can be considered ethics in music.

    Some of the songs which I like:

    Fi?














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    Fe?












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    Fi?
    Last edited by sarinana; 11-13-2009 at 07:55 PM.

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    Is it me or Fi seems very passive compared to Fe?

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    Not sure where to start...You can type the music in the way you feel comfortable. However my idea is to develop a rational approach to typing the music. It is a bit difficult for me to get very deeply into it in English and as much as I do it at the Russian forum. I will share my ideas as much as I can. It may be at the same time be of your advantage because you will activate your own resourses and may progress quicker.
    When we just start to type music we need to know the opinions of otheres: are we on the right truck or not? Ideally we should have for discussion each and every type of socion. Therefore we shall not be disheartened if people feel different and we shall be pleased to find understanding. This is first. Secondly try to think about criteria for typing. It is easier to type the music which we are not sure about if we have got some common criteria.

    I will continue in the next post.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    What music do we consider as ethical? How the ethics can come across in the music? These questions we need to answer before we shall consider the answer. May be there are some different criteria? If it is the song and it's text is about love and feelings we can consider it as ethical but the musical form and the functions used to express ethics may be not ethical in nature. If it is very prominent Fi or Fe then it could be rather yes then not. I would differentiate the music where I definetly see ethics as primary aspects and as secondary aspects but definetly present. That means some songs seem more ethical then the others and some not exactly ethical. Now I will try to sort out the music from your lists which I perceive as definetly ethical from my subjective ISFJ perspective and whcich are not.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    There is definetly ethics there but not sure which one, probably Fi:
    Dido, sonata Arctica, Olivia N.J. and both of Billy Joel. Not sure about the very first song of Portishead.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    I do not feel very obvious or primary Fi or Fe in this examples. We can say to a degree that all music like all people have ethics in their structure. I cannot see Fi or Fe unless it is a leading function in the song. I would say that Olivia's song was the most obvious ethical and rational from all of them. I will try to look through the thread of ethical types and will post their lists of music so that you could have a better idea of music Fi and Fe- types. Meanwhile you can feel free to discuss music as your subjective opinion. it does not matter if it is true or not. Important is to exchange ideas, to share opinions and to make a team because it is more fun then just to think on your own.
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    Billy Joel songs in general and "Honesty" in particular sound as ethical to me. May be a few other songs as well but not Fedde Le Grand.
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    VERY Fe:


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    and muse is EIE? I don't find it "sincere" its more forced.

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    Hmm, is this Fi or Fe? Hard to pick whether it's Dynamic or Static. I think she is an ENFp...



    This is a good example of Fi vs. Fe, I think... U2's version is obviously Fe, and Vanessa Carlton's cover is Fi:





    Vanessa Carlton's version is much more calm and serene, it almost never goes overboard. Her piano is very hypnotic in a calming way, and it basically stays the same throughout the whole song. U2's version is obviously much more passionate, it's like waves of rough currents in the sea.
    Last edited by Singu; 11-18-2009 at 11:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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    Love it all!!!
    This song I like a lot though it can be not necessarily Fi. It could be also Fe+Si. It has a bit more easy approach to life as I would imagine for the programm Fi/ It sounds also ratinoal to me at the same time:

    I'm afraid of the dark
    Especially when I'm in the park
    and there's no one else around
    Oh I get the shivers
    I don't wanna see a ghost
    It's the sight that I fear most
    I'd rather have a piece of toast
    Watch the evening news

    I'm a superstitious girl
    I'm the worst in the world
    Never walk under ladders
    I keep a rabbits' tail
    I'll take you up on a dare
    Anytime, anywhere
    Name the place, I'll be there
    Bungee jumping, I don't care

    So after all's said and done
    I know I'm not the only one
    Life indeed can be fun
    If you really want to
    Sometimes living out your dreams
    Ain't as easy as it seems
    You wanna fly around the world
    In a beautiful balloon

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    Fi:

    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Fi... although it's somewhat down and depressive:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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    Britney's song is fe tho I can feel more Si there than even Fe.

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    I would also think here is a sad emotion Fe which is expressed through Si. And at the same time the song is about love and need of somebody, which is Fi. I guess we shall have many border -songs, which we can refer to opposition Superid-Superego or Superego-Superid. May be because it is an ethical Superid, it does not sound that irrational as logical Superid. So it does sound as rather rational and similar to Superego. Intuitive Superego types (INFJ & INTJ) are more inclined to melancholy and sad music then sensorical types. Things are not always straight forward. May be if we compare this song of Britny with other Fi songs, amay be then we shall see the difference?

    One ISTP, for example, thinks that the song which I love for very long time is actually Si-song, not Fi. What do you think? This could be another border -song or? I like it because I do not feel any Fe, it seems so static and calm to me.

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    I asked one of the ESFJ about the song "des ree ' life". She said it is too boring for her. So may be it is a sensorical, cheerful Fi. Sensoric types seem to be more cheerful on the hole.
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    Fi and beautiful:


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    Yes, very beautiful, at one point I nearly cried looking at the beautiful pictures. It does sound a bit irrational to me in sound as a quiet trance. Reminds me one of my favourite songs from Enigma. Not sure how to describe the feeling. It is not just me and my feelings in the sound of this music. It is not a "here and now" song. As if there is a presence of God, universal feeling, no borders of the space or time.
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    I love Enya because she has got many Fi songs, but this is not an earthy Fi, it is more like angelic or universal Fi? Whenever I need to relax I listen to this music. It is like meditation.
    It is interesting that the words do not contain Fi as a theme as such, rather Ni/Si. But the words of love are very nicely suit to this song, whoever put them there. Very warm Fi-feeling from the music.

    Who can tell me if we have heaven,
    who can say the way it should be;
    Moonlight holly, the Sappho Comet,
    Angel's tears below a tree.

    You talk of the break of morning
    as you view the new aurora,
    Cloud in crimson, the key of heaven,
    one love carved in acajou.

    One told me of China Roses,
    One a Thousand nights and one night,
    Earth's last picture, the end of evening:
    hue of indigo and blue.


    A new moon leads me to
    woods of dreams and I follow.
    A new world waits for me;
    my dream, my way.

    I know that if I have heaven
    there is nothing to desire.
    Rain and river, a world of wonder
    may be paradise to me.

    I see the sun.
    I see the stars.



    Enya - China Roses
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    Olga,
    Its been centuries since I logged on but I must congratulate you on your extensive musical post. I really enjoy many on the videos you've posted and they have given me new directions in music. I would like to comment on Enya who I think has very Fi music. I don't know how to articulate why I feel her music is Fi but I do. What would you say would characterize Fi music?

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga View Post
    I would also think here is a sad emotion Fe which is expressed through Si. And at the same time the song is about love and need of somebody, which is Fi. I guess we shall have many border -songs, which we can refer to opposition Superid-Superego or Superego-Superid. May be because it is an ethical Superid, it does not sound that irrational as logical Superid. So it does sound as rather rational and similar to Superego. Intuitive Superego types (INFJ & INTJ) are more inclined to melancholy and sad music then sensorical types. Things are not always straight forward. May be if we compare this song of Britny with other Fi songs, amay be then we shall see the difference?

    One ISTP, for example, thinks that the song which I love for very long time is actually Si-song, not Fi. What do you think? This could be another border -song or? I like it because I do not feel any Fe, it seems so static and calm to me.

    YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
    This is interesting. The black and white film makes me think of nostalgia and sadness, a subjective impression. The way the singer describes his world makes me think Si. In some odd way this is song makes me think of an ISTP who longs for connection.

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    About that Britney's song... Well, I think the lyrics are Fi, which makes sense, since it was actually written by Britney herself. But the music was composed by another composer, so the song could be a mix of two types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga View Post
    I asked one of the ESFJ about the song "des ree ' life". She said it is too boring for her. So may be it is a sensorical, cheerful Fi. Sensoric types seem to be more cheerful on the hole.
    I actually like that song... although it's not something that I would usually listen to.

    And Enya's music seem Ni, in general. Most of her music has an ethereal and otherworldly quality to them...

    But you know, it's hard for me to just listen to any music and say "that's function X" and so on, because the musical experience can be subjective. For example, I know my Identical who says that a song by a certain band is "beautiful', yet when I listen to it, I think it's total crap (lol), and I have no idea what she's listening to that makes it so "beautiful". So as you can see, it can be quite subjective... Maybe if we could explain what is it that we're hearing that makes us think of X, then we could explain these things better (although that may be hard to do). Or maybe that would make things even more confusing, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    About that Britney's song... Well, I think the lyrics are Fi, which makes sense, since it was actually written by Britney herself. But the music was composed by another composer, so the song could be a mix of two types.
    What type do you think Britney is? I thought she was SEI... who grown up living a live that made her seem different that stereotypical SEI. But she is definitely not SEE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    What type do you think Britney is? I thought she was SEI... who grown up living a live that made her seem different that stereotypical SEI. But she is definitely not SEE.
    Really... I've always thought that Britney was somewhat of a stereotypical SEE. What makes you think that she's not SEE?
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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    2 Topaz
    I am not sure how to describe Fi-aspect in music, because it can be different in connection with other aspects. Traditionally Fi is associated with pink-purple colour. Whenever we add another aspect it changes a bit in shade or in quantity. It is not suppose to be loud because it is not Fe. Then it should be sincere and touch upon your feeling in some special way. I have read that the soul (feelings and emotions) helps the person to achieve the self- realisation. If there is a rational, logical purpose of living then the soul-search and the soul- work helps to realise this purpose. So we do have to care for our feelings towards ourselves and others. I hope that together we shall manage to understand better all the possible expressions of Fi-shades in music. Meanwile I have remembered one song which is a very
    earthy Fi. My thoughts about music of Enya I write in my next post.
    Luther Vandross Dance with my Father Again
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    Could it be Fi?

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    I like the majority of Enya songs. I like some other singers but cannot listen to them all the time. Enya songs are introverted, peaceful, good for relaxation and meditation. Singularity said very good about the nature of her songs: "Most of her music has an ethereal and otherworldly quality to them..." Whatever is Heaven, Enhya's music would fit good to it atmosphere. It seems to me that she has got all introverted aspects present in harmony in her music and she feels it well herself otherewise how could she express it so well. If we all are living spirits then some of us are look and sound as real angels. Enya is one of them. Intuition and ethics are in particularly strong in her.
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    Britney is a stereotypical SEE and my daughter SEE is simlar to her in many different little ways. That is why I feel always sorry for Britney when things do not go right for her. But I do not feel much sorry for Robby Williams because he is similar to the father of my daughter (attitude-wise) LOL
    As regards to stereotypical SEI - it could be Dido? May be a few others. The singer in Corrs, Irish band.

    2 Singularity
    You are right. I think we need to try in many different ways to describe our feeling, sensing about the music. The idea is that we should find common tendency for some compositions and not for the other. That is why it is so important to share subjective views and opinions which are very much appreciated in the development of theory. As long as we have got in interest and a hope we shall be ok.
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    2 sarinana
    I am not sure if there is Fi in lyrics but in music and vocals I hear Si.
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    Mhm I cannot relate to Britney Spears at all...and I am SEE. In my opinion she is just too stupid and has a boring personality, tho she is creative... i mean shaving her hair and stuff... :S

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    There are differences between SEE too. What about lady Gaga, even more creative one?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga View Post
    There are differences between SEE too. What about lady Gaga, even more creative one?
    lady gaga is SEE? what are other SEE musicians?
    by the way Dido I thought was IEE...

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    One thing for sure that she has got very prominent Se quality and Id- quality to her music. Irrationality is also evident. Pink I would think an ESTP. Not sure about Aguilera and Ketty Perry.
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    You know, I would've thought that Lady Gaga was a SEE at first, but after watching this live performance of her, I think that she's a Beta NF. She is quite (melo)dramatic and she seems to put a lot of drama in her shows. Skip to around 3:20:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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