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Thread: School of Associative Socionics: Dynamic music

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    Default School of Associative Socionics: Dynamic music

    Music of the oppositions Ego- Superid and Superid-Ego.

    This music must be liked by the dynamic types, because there is a constant movement from high to low, contrast change from very quiet to the very loud, volcanic music and no stagnation... The change of emotional states from the one of desperation, weakness, sadness or fear to the one of a full self-control and control over the situation. This music consists of unexpectedly sharp leap upward to the full expression of emotion. Dynamic music can also be quiet without the sharp change of rhythms. However you still would feel the internal tension within and constant movement of music which you would associate with internal stress, anxiety or sadness and would not know the exact reason for it. As if you would feel restless or not be able to sleep. This is a state of nature before the storm.

    The typology of music is a new thing. So whenever I say something it means that I or we (me and some other forum members) assume this at the moment. Nothing is cut in stone but there is more or less strong feeling towards the suggestion. So, the music which I would like to offer to your attention belongs to the oppostion Superid-Ego, because we feel that Superid is a bit more present than Ego. However we do not have an exact instrument to measure, just our feelings and perception. Please, decide for yourself and if you wish add your compositions to this thread!
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    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Tchaikovsky and Beethoven symphonies, film soundtracks that offer drastic change within a scene? My dad says he doesn't understand why it gets loud all of a sudden. I tell him it is called dynamics. That's what makes it interesting. Dynamics were the very first thing I noticed being used by many musical geniuses, which attracted me to my first round of heavy listening.

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    2 polikujm
    It is a shame I do not know classical music well enough but there are some people on the Russian forum who loves it. I will keep an eye and share their thoughts on a classical music here.
    I wonder, if you could post here a couple of examples of music you are talking about?
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    First of all, I like your observations a lot. I'm wondering what else more could be said, and how these two types of music could compare, tastes of dynamic types compared to static types.

    For some reason when I first got into liking chamber music a lot, this arrangement of music by Koji Kondo stuck out as "genius" because notice at 1:00 how the beat in the strings gets louder and then softer, and that complements the melody and harmony, giving life you could say. It is very catchy and simple, and now that I look back it's strange that I loved that so much compared to what I like now, but I still like it a lot.



    I've always asked the question, is it possible for a car to all of a sudden be going 70 miles an hour when it was once stopped, or is the time in between that really time speeding up to that point? So basically I always try to see things develop even when it's hard to notice, and I tell people, "just wait, it's getting there" and I know they don't enjoy the journey as much as I do. I always have to tell people to wait and be patient, in every day things. Maybe I'm too slow sometimes, but I think others are too rash and they're missing out on a lot. Then again I'm IP.

    The following movement is one of my absolute favorites of Beethoven and shows great dynamicism. At first it gets loud then soft then loud in a pattern, but eventually it starts off soft again and builds and dies, builds and dies, and the whole piece is like a journey as if you were watching a movie, or a multitude of developments happening one after another. I also consider his gradual harmonic developments as inventive, if not universally classical.



    Tell me, is this more dynamic music or static? This is one of my favorites of John Williams. I do appreciate repeating melodies, especially if they are good, but I basically like them because they help develop the piece of music, and I like when they are used later in a different fashion. I wonder if static and dynamic types view melodies differently.



    I like the music just as much as I like where the music is placed. Time and place is everything.

    I love Debussy. I think impressionism in general is very dynamic music.



    I think dynamicism can be in harmony, as well as anything really. I've never liked too odd chord changes, but if it develops nicely to that point in harmony and on occasion turns to some bold key, it sounds so sweet. The notes are really all about timing and progression.

    Lastly, here's a dynamic piece in harmony and volume of which I like a lot, and even when there is repetition in the melody there is dynamicism. In this case it's all about contrast. One side moves, the other side stays the same, like how legs move in footsteps.



    I think many static listeners view dynamicism as a distraction. My dad for instance doesn't know what to think when it gets loud and soft, he just sees the difference in volume, but he doesn't consider everything together as developing.

    I'll finish off by saying that most of all music I like is by your definition dynamic.
    Last edited by 717495; 10-22-2009 at 01:36 PM.

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    2 policujm

    You told me amazing things about yourself and your perception of music. The whole idea of music typology is in fact very basic and I see it in general terms. However it gets very exciting in the process of exploration while we exchange ideas and feelings. Like the whole new world is opening and this is all fun. I would never be able to develop theory just on my own.
    I think the classical music or rock or any genre of music has got it's own special characteristics which you need to know in order to be right. It would be much better if it would be the discussion between the two experts of classical music. I do agree with everything you said about the dynamicism of classical music. The composition you are asking me I can only judge by the general feeling and I could mistake. When I listen to the music in order to assess my own feelings about it I imagine pictures in my head. Then I try to think about the pictures if they were static or dynamic. On the whole, the classical music for me is more complicated and dynamic than static pop. lol From your third piece of music I had a very positive feeling, some sort of stability. It was movement but not fast, rather slow as if you sit in a space ship and looks at the sky. Or you are walking down the road and see people working in the fields and building their life. sometimes you pay attention to a litle detail and this is where music slows down because you need time to look atit but then again you are back into the flow, which picks you up with a stronger feeling of involvement. I could say it looks like static but I am not sure to what TPE or to what opposition I would relate this music. It does seem a rational music to me.
    As regards you friend's type I hope when we get to understand better music from the point of theory and practice then we may answer those questions. I will open more threads so that we could differentiate better the TPE and the oppositions. Later we shall move to the Jungs dichotomies and so on....
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    Some time ego one forum member asked me if this piece of music is dynamic. At that time I was not sure but now I think yes. What do you think (to all)? Her question was about the fact that the rhythm tact (speed ?) do not change but the melody changes. I personally do not see the change of melody as such but I do think it is a dynamic music because it is moving very fast but not loud. It could be intuitive introverted dynamic?

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    Is it introverted dynamics Superid-Ego?
    Spanish Guitar?


    Compare to the extraverted dynamics Ego-Superid. Very powerful dramatic music, obvious strong contrasts:

    Trans-Siberian Orchestra - "Christmas Eve/Sarajevo - 12/24"


    And less dramaitc but cheerful extraverted oppositon Ego-Superid. Here we do not see strong contrasts but feel the flexibility in movement of music and even obvious irrationality at some point. I imagine how the turning of the snow storm like a whirlpool:

    Trans-Siberian Orchestra - "Wizards in Winter"
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    By the way, thanks for the response. I read it, I don't know what to say.

    Which specific category would you place this in? (starting at 0:24)



    That transiberian Orchestra theme reminds me of the theme song from the Goonies, a little bit.

    Last edited by 717495; 10-22-2009 at 02:01 PM.

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    That's ok, we don't have comment on everything.
    The second music was easier to associate with the category Ego-Id. The first one was a bit difficult. I am not 100% sure but I would consider just Ego. It is not too loud but may be because of a particular music genre. It did also remind me of the music which you considered very Ni related. and what do you think about the first one? Would you consider it as Ni music?
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    Ego means EJ music, right? I think I might consider it Ni. Here is another piece by the same composer who I would have equal likeliness of considering it Ni.


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    I love it. I think you right. This music is a pure Ni - the event developing in time. There is no emotions just the speed of development which could be slower or quicker. I usually relate Ni closely to Si and together they produce a "comatose" state of music, really low and blue muisc. But Ni on it's own sounds different. WEll done! This is a discovery! I will share these thoughts on the russian forum and may be somebody will comment on that.

    P.S. Ego is predominantly Fe+ Te music but I think you can call it EJ - the same thing, isn't it?
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    Yes, and thank John Adams for discovering it. He wrote a lot of his music to portray the busy environments of California, such as San Francisco. Some would call it Si then, but I still think it counts as Ni because it is a wholey abstract reflection, and it has broad "themes" hidden in its various keys and instrumentation. Don't trust me on that though, just my impression, and I would say overall it is rich in both Si and Ni, when you're counting how environmentally expressive it is. It is just rather, "backed away" from the actual scene, and covers more of the essence.

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    I think pure Si must be very differnt from pure Ni. I need to think about that deeper. But your examples of Ni music at this moment of the development of theory I would be happy to consider as pure Ni example. I want to show you the song which contains Ni music together with Fe and therefore it starts slow but then it develops into strong Ego music. It is called "I search for you". It is about searching for the loved one, why do we do that if we have to part anyway and it can hapen any time, again and again and we still search for each other. I wonder if you can hear Ni in this piece of music (or it seems more like Ne to you?):



    Sandor (ENTP) believes that in this music (Symphony of lost paradise) there is Fe but I hear first of all intuition. May be Ne intuition because the melody is quite complex. It does not go into one direction like Ni-music but in many directions at once. This music has got no direction (Ni) and no structure (Ti) a bit chaotic to my taste. I may mistake but Ni-music is more linear like the speeding car on the road.





    He also confused me a bit with the music of Luccasen is Ne-music but I hear definete Superid-misic. This is what Jung could call Shadow music. I would consider this music Ni+Si. What do you thinnk about this music?:

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    Default musical VI...

    stereotypical and exxagerated statics vs dynamics.....
    Since rock uses less dynamic range it could give a better clue as whether the artist is static or dynamic when just looking at the waveform in an audio viewing program.

    The second pic in their says Metallica: LSI static.


    Joe Satrini-surfing with the alien-LIE represents EJ
    Note that this song is particuarlly compressed, the dynamic range is restricted on purpose. This is the norm for most rock/pop/rap/techno these days.

    This is the full umcompressed version of the same song, no longer in print. Still looks EJ temp.


    iei pat metheny


    ILE Pete Townsend-the who-wont get fooled again
    A few abrupt leaps, trying to get some Si?

    I could probably post every song from wikisocion, or from celebs artists listed.
    I'd say its easier and simpified to see here than f'in VI is to explain and describe. Graph vs Human being: Graph wins.
    It would help if i normalized all these to the same volume and this is definently some cherry picking of music, but you could get the feel for it like VI.
    Last edited by jughead; 10-27-2009 at 08:54 AM.

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    Please, give the link to the site to check out the wafe -forms. I am on holiday but on friday I can have a look into it. I wonder if you could present it a bit more clearely as I do not understand what music you are talking about -the link to utube would be ideal, then the graff then you iinterpretation. Even more better if you compare just two or three examples: static, dynamic, inbetween.
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    really interesting!
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Like I said my interpretation of the deals with alot of conjecture.
    But have you seen the graphs of energy level based on temperament? Because of what information we are paying to is dynamic or static we must react dynamically or statically.

    . Green is EJ because its high energy and constant,blue is IJ low energy and constant.(I THINK! hope I'm not wrong hah or will mess this up) Red is ep, high energy and changing, and yellow ip low energy and changing.


    This is what temperament means in real life to me: dynamic is constanly viewing a changing reality. Irrational dynamic expiriences are like vortexs, twisting, spiraling, seeing the chaos for what it is. Irrational dynamics would look like freehand lines in reacting, rational measured and precalculated. Things can be seen as so dynamic they arise theories like a butterfly beats its wings in Japan and creates a tornado in america. But you need statics to measure and create a reliable way of getting these effects, because Ni dominants will get stuck seeing cause effect chains and not acting, and Si's stuck comfortably adapting. Statics only see the changes, or abrupt leapts in reality, not the change in between.
    Thus their energy is less changing.

    Sound is basically energy, expression given to other people, and this energy is measured over time by these audio programs. Download audacity for free to look at any of your music files mp3,wav,flac,aac etc. You should easily see differences between each genre and each musician. Classical music naturally has and values dynamics, it is for quiet music halls with wooden natural instruments so I figured it would night be impossible to sort statics from dynamics.
    Rock,techno, rap are all more processed types of music genres where dynamics are more restricted and not seen as neccesary,but rock musicians still play their own instruments so you wouldnt have to seperate rap artists lyrics from the beats they dont create. It still might show a pattern I just haven't checked. If you could just get vocal tracks of musicians playing music of their own writing or what they really like seems like it could be the best way of saying from this method:are they dynamic or static?
    You would need some exposure to these types of music programs, playing music, and probably a healthy dose of creative Ti to see what i meant in my original post; hence maybe the ILE saw it as interesting because its possible! I will try and look at more examples and post them if they have this pattern.
    So if the graph looks constant it is conveying Ij or EJ. If its changing like a freehand line its Ep or Ip. A measure of the average change of the graph would help determine instances where there are uncertainties.
    Really interesting i just found this Comparisonics Waveform Display
    Wikisocion connects some of the information like heavy plodding bass lines to Se and high pitched wails to Fe. One step closer to my crazy method of typing.

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    Kenny G:song bird

    type:dynamic douche isfp? or esfj si? subtypes threatens to ruin my theory or make it unusable.

    Note this is also jazz, relatively much more dynamic than rock.
    Last edited by jughead; 10-29-2009 at 03:20 AM.

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    Here are the youtube links you wanted; refer to the graphs from my first post
    Statics
    IJ
    David Byrne- Psycho Killer


    LSI Metallica- Damage INc


    Ep ILE Pete Townsend -The Who-Won't get fooled again


    EJ

    LIE Joe Satriani Surfing with the Alien



    Radiohead SEI or IEI -Fake Plastic trees


    Pat Metheny IEI-Across the Heartland


    If you want to see how graph plots and plays along with some music http://homedir-b.libsyn.com/podcasts...udness_War.mov

    This is the only example I could find, I dont have a video camera.

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    polikujm what type is your dad? My dad is enfp and i IEI and i just think its the values difference morseo than lack of musical training or him being static. Obviously dynamic types create and enjoy this music but their quadra members and duals should appreciate it more than opposing quadras.

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    I need a logic type to clear up some of my bs.

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    2 Jughead
    I opened the comparisonics Sound Gallery but the second link does not open. Do you know any other links to display music in a wave form?
    I would draw the lines for each temperament differently. EJ big and sharp frequent waves. For EP - big and not frequent waves, more staic and stable. For IJ - small size waves and not sharp, nearly straingt line. For IP smal size but frequent waves. The freaquence for the rational type would be more predictable and more irratic for irrational types. Something like that.
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    2 Jughead
    Yesterday utube did not work properly. Today I managed to listen to your music examples. It is all very interesting. I would prefer to discuss each one separately. Do not give to many at once. We need to make sense of what we see and hear. If we cannot get the wafe form that means we shall have to define in some other way and see if we agree on what we think. OK? We shall do it with no rush.
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    Can someone describe 1812 (Tchaikovsky) from a Socionics point of view?
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Yes, I can try although classical music could be more difficult to describe. On the whole I woud consider this music as a rational music (rational opposition Ego -Superego). Ego -music and Superego-music are the leading TPE (types of energy). Generally the war is done by strong Ego energy. At the beginning I feel dynamic element Ni as if the fight just unfolds and it is dramatic. However the believe in the victory and strong will to achive it is already there. It is a very optimistic, strong energy and inspiring sound of Ego. Then it come to Superego-music, more peaceful sound of home, sounds more like ethical music to me. Like a memory of your home, of the loved one, may be it is the memory of your birth place or generaly atachment to your home country. The Ego music sounds louder as if we are celebrating the victory - the sound of the church bells everywhere. At the end we hear the Id-music of joy and happiness about the victory. This is more like Ego-Id opposition. One TPE is not present - Superid -music- no melancholy or sadness.
    So this is all understandable. People fought for their own country (Superego) - there had the right to winn this war and so they did because they had one and the same goal - to be free to live by their own will (Ego). You cannot winn the war just by loving and knowing what is right or wrong. You have got to be a fighter and stand up for yourself (Ego).
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    Thank you for your cooperation!
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
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    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
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    What about Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1?



    You know it's interesting... because most of his music often opens with a "bang!", and then not much happens... then exists with a "bang!" again

    His intro in Piano Concerto No. 1 is one of my favorite intros... ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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    The muisc is very dynamic in nature but the emotions are positive. I would assume that he could be a rational extravert (to be honest have got no idea about his persnality as such) Ego is quite strong, but no sadness just optimism and positive progress. However, the rational extraverts as dynamic types have very mobile and changing inner world. May be the classical music suits the best to express this changing inner states of soul. May be he was a dynamic type, positive and emotinal. I think the music is rational on the hole. During Ego-moments there is a little bit of drama and danger. If we would draw a picture what colours would we chose or what pictures whould we drew? At one point I imagined strong waves of the sea clushing on the shore and dark clouds but still the sun comes through it as if the power of Light will always winn over everything: over irrational power of storm and over inner turmoil of doubt and changing feelings. Very positive inspiring music.
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    If you mean Tchaikovsky, Olga, he was probably (I dunno) IEI

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...haikovsky.html
    ILE "Searcher"
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    May be it is just the music examples. If the music is predominantly like that then rationality could be more likely. I can open another thread where we could suggest types for some of the componists or singers.I am personaly more intersted in music as it can take time to analyse the personality in depth.
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    1. Kenny G:song bird
    Not sure what to say here, the genre may be more dynamic on the whole and more Si. For me it is rather quiet relaxing introverted music. Superego- Superid or Superid -Superego.
    Yes, you probably right, it is Si. Just listened to Smokey Robinson and realised that it is Si.
    Last edited by Olga; 11-02-2009 at 03:00 PM.
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    Juzz is definetly dynamic music. Depending on how much emotions the music contains you can relate it to different blocks Ego or Superid.
    In this song of Duffy I can hear Ni plus stronger emotions then in the songs of Smokey Robinson (see thread Sensorics in music).



    This is already more Si:



    I wonder if we could rlate music of Mikel Jakson to Si muisc?
    In this music I assume Ni + Si, may be? His music seems to be dynamic but not too loud either, not extraverted in nature:

    Last edited by Olga; 11-02-2009 at 04:29 PM.
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    Metallica- Damage
    I see it as static music but no way I would relate it to Superego music. May be you are right but I woud rather realte it to irrational logical music Id. I may mistake though.
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