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Thread: Forcing people to apologise

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    not a bumblebee octo's Avatar
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    Default Forcing people to apologise

    Is this type-related?

    I know an SEE who does this, but I'm wondering if it's related to type or if it's just how she interacts with people...
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
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    I think ethical types would generally be more prone to do this, especially extroverts. Se+Fi sounds like the perfect combination that would have the least trouble doing it, and they might also be the most naturally predisposed to do it.
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    Sounds like it would be related to Fi, trying to preserve a positive relationship. I would expect Gamma SFs to be the most likely to do it.

    I can see an Fe type doing it as well, maintaining good Fi relationships for the purpose of maintaining positive Fe.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    Is this type-related?

    I know an SEE who does this, but I'm wondering if it's related to type or if it's just how she interacts with people...
    You mean, making someone say the words "I'm sorry"? That's stupid imo. Not sure it's type-related, but fwiw my LSI dad used to force my brother and me to apologize. He didn't care that we didn't mean it; he just wanted to hear the words. I always assumed it was a power trip/immaturity thing.

    Personally, if someone has done something to me... well it depends on the situation. Usually I'd rather talk it out, make sure we each understand the other's perspective, and then make up if possible... the words "I'm sorry" don't need to be said by the other person in order for me to forgive them, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Sounds like it would be related to Fi, trying to preserve a positive relationship.
    Yeah, I think this might be the Fi manifestation of it.

    IMO the Fe manifestation is like demanding Nixion or Bush apologise for their wrong doings, there is no real relationship involved just retribution needed or blame to be dished out. When it gets to be more about blame and retribution I think Fe is more involved than Fi.

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    I do this occasionally to my SEE sister. That's about it.

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    My ESI brother does this to his kids. He's trying to teach them to be respectful, and saying I'm sorry is partly about being sorry but also partly about respect.

    I don't force apologies. I suggest my daughter might like to apologize to try to make things better between her and someone else if she's done something wrong, and she generally does, usually by writing a note and drawing a picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    Is this type-related?

    I know an SEE who does this, but I'm wondering if it's related to type or if it's just how she interacts with people...
    Are you looking for which type logically would do this based on socionics theory, or which types do this irl?

    Socionically, I would say that this is definitely related to both Fi and Fe due to their own respective reasons, Fi focusing on maintain good relations and Fe on having a positive atmosphere, because this type of conflict usually generates tense environments. Either way, apologizing is a necessary social skill to have regardless of what function(s) you value. Someone who doesn't know how to apologize, and what situations merit it, will have it rougher in the social department, and I don't think we need facts to see how this is true.

    I want to say that I've seen ESIs and ESEs do this irl more often than other types, but I honestly don't remember a specific situation.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    My IEE dad does it. It's stupid. Lying is worse than being rude.

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    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
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    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    My IEE dad does it. It's stupid. Lying is worse than being rude.
    I recall, though, that when one of his students responded to "say you're sorry" with "but I'm not sorry," he was impressed.

    I imagine if I responded like that, he would respond with "Why not?". Actually I think he did respond that way... let's see... that student responded with "I'm just not." Dad found that honesty impressive.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I recall, though, that when one of his students responded to "say you're sorry" with "but I'm not sorry," he was impressed.

    I imagine if I responded like that, he would respond with "Why not?". Actually I think he did respond that way... let's see... that student responded with "I'm just not." Dad found that honesty impressive.
    Huh. I don't remember that. I never tried that; to me it's obvious that if I don't say I'm sorry I'm not. Sometimes I'll say "I'm sorry [that I hit you (because now everyone's making a big deal about it)]."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  12. #12
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    Sometimes when a person tries to pressure a person to appologize... they aren't really expecting to force them to sincerely be sorry, they are simply communicating to that person that they feel the other person should be sorry. If the person gives in and appologizes even though they aren't truely sorry its a matter of respect, your submitting your desires temporarily to conform to the will of that person. If you hold on and continue to deny saying sorry its a perpetuation of the conflict until someone submits or changes. In other words its a conflict....

    person A thinks person B should be sorry
    person B isn't sorry

    a conflict is created concerning when it is right to feel remorse/fault.

    If person B appologizes but not sincerely, there is still a conflict but person B is submitting out of respect, its a way of communicating that you'll respect the other person's wishes regardless of how you feel about that issue.

    In general I don't think that submission is a big deal for small issues, but for issues of high personal value and significance I think its better to resist so you have your human dignity. If a person expects a sincere appology where there isn't one, then they are being crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    In general I don't think that submission is a big deal for small issues, but for issues of high personal value and significance I think its better to resist so you have your human dignity. If a person expects a sincere appology where there isn't one, then they are being crazy.
    My opinion on submission in both small and large things is as follows:
    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Churchill
    Never give in — never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    My opinion on submission in both small and large things is as follows:
    yea thats a good quote and I agree, but I was mainly thinking about ridiculous cases.... like one time I went through the drive thru at starbucks and ordered coffee with cream... they didn't put cream in the coffee and instead of going back their and not just giving in to their error, I decided to just give in and make due because it wasn't worth the fight. I am just trying to say "pick and choose your battles". I get really into my conflicts, so I tend to be easy going about small stuff or else my life would be pretty stressful.

    If a person tells me to appologize and its not a big deal, I'll appologize and avoid the stress... if its something I feel I should stand my ground on, I'll stand it.

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    Why would you make somebody else say they're sorry if they don't really mean it? That's dumb. You really just want revenge, not remorse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Huh. I don't remember that. I never tried that; to me it's obvious that if I don't say I'm sorry I'm not. Sometimes I'll say "I'm sorry [that I hit you (because now everyone's making a big deal about it)]."
    lol I often forget to say I'm sorry because I think it's obvious that I am! When I was a kid, I used to wonder at my LSE Dad who wouldn't forget something until I'd said that I was sorry. The first time he said "I'm waiting for you to say you're sorry", it surprised me.. so I said 'sorry' on the spot, and felt like I was half making fun of someone being satisfied by a saying so trite. :-p But he was satisfied.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Why would you make somebody else say they're sorry if they don't really mean it? That's dumb. You really just want revenge, not remorse.
    Actually I don't think its too dumb of an idea, I think the people that do this really just want remorse, but they are incapable of willing remorse into another person. The same way you can fall in love with another person but you can't will them to love you back.

    In fact the entire process of willing another person to feel "X" for you is destructive, love isn't true if its forced, and remorse isn't true if its forced... but that doesn't mean that we as people don't desire this. Some things though are not for us to decide, we think we want to control the world around us and shape it to our ideals, but we really don't want that. All we can honestly do is act in our lives based on our ideals, and have the world shape itself around us and not the other way around.

    Basically I don't think its dumb because the other alternative is to pretend like your ok with a person doing something you feel they should be remorseful for. I think the only "smart" solution is to be willing to accept that conflict will arise in life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    Is this type-related?

    I know an SEE who does this, but I'm wondering if it's related to type or if it's just how she interacts with people...
    This sounds really hot. I know I would want a girl who forces me to apologize to people. Illustrate some damn etiquette around my household, or else I remain oblivious to how I make others feel. I'm already quite oblivious to how they feel emotionally (Fe). Ethical rules and enforcement of these rules is kind of comforting.

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    not a bumblebee octo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Why would you make somebody else say they're sorry if they don't really mean it? That's dumb. You really just want revenge, not remorse.
    That's my view of it - forcing someone to say they're sorry when they don't really mean it is pointless. (I'd make an exception for when you're making your kids do it - it's a way of teaching empathy and manners, but past a certain age it's condescending.)

    It seems strange to me that such an artificial show of goodwill would be demanded by an Fi-ego, but judging by everyone's replies, it's not type-related.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Why would you make somebody else say they're sorry if they don't really mean it? That's dumb. You really just want revenge, not remorse.
    I don't really see it as a bad thing. In essence, it is not. It can very well result in something positive if guided smoothly along. Goodwill doesn't always have to be just suddenly born. Much of the time it needs to be illustrated. Even if someone doesn't mean it, maybe they need to learn otherwise, simply open their eyes to reality a little bit and stop being selfish.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    yea thats a good quote and I agree, but I was mainly thinking about ridiculous cases.... like one time I went through the drive thru at starbucks and ordered coffee with cream... they didn't put cream in the coffee and instead of going back their and not just giving in to their error, I decided to just give in and make due because it wasn't worth the fight. I am just trying to say "pick and choose your battles". I get really into my conflicts, so I tend to be easy going about small stuff or else my life would be pretty stressful.
    Well yeah, that's more about refusing to apply force to get your way, rather than submitting to force applied to someone else.

    I never apologize unless I think I'm in some way at fault. Saying "I'm sorry" when I'm not would be lying, and Truth is more important to me than social lubricants. Of course, when I *am* at fault, I apologize willingly; I don't have to be told to do it (usually).
    Quaero Veritas.

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    It comes down to what matters more to you, getting someone to admit that they were wrong, thus engaging in some sort of power game or a genuine feeling of regret.

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