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Thread: Enneagram Types 5 and 8

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    Default Enneagram Types 5 and 8

    Mainly I'm concerned with dis/integration of 8s and 5s.
    I believe I am a 5, but I don't think I have ever experienced turning 7ish under stress. If anything, under stress I become withdrawn like a 5. When I have been in exceptionally good moods I have surprised myself by acting helpful and caring like a 2.

    Can anyone (preferably an E5) describe what it looks like when a 5 disintegrates into a 7? and have any 5s had occasional 2 tendencies?

    why I think I might be an 8.
    I never back down from conflict situations and have been known to instigate fights on occasion. When angered, I pretty much let it loose, and don't usually recognize anger until after or when someone points it out, though I am pretty slow to anger. I tend to think less of people who have shown themselves to been incapable, and I feel stressed when someone makes me feel incapable. When it comes to doing anything I don't want to, I'm hard to convince (not a "go with the group" kind of person). Strong need for independence.

    Why I don't think I'm an 8.
    I don't feel like I try to dominate people. I'm not forceful unless crossed or challenged. I'm not as "ready for action" as many descriptions describe. Don't consider myself a leader, but capable of leading.

    Why I think I'm a 5.
    I am fairly withdrawn/quiet and feel anxiety in unfamiliar social situations. Very cerebral/logical. At times nihilistic/melancholy. As a child, lived in "my own little world." Fairly private lifestyle.

    Why I don't think I'm a 5
    Don't relate to "knowledge-seeking", though I do value knowledge and will spend a lot of time researching things in areas of interest. Not very bookish (typically have no patience for reading unless I'm truly interested). Don't feel as disconnected from the world as I did when I was younger, though still have moments. Only half relate to the idea of having a "secret inner world."
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    you think a lot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Mainly I'm concerned with dis/integration of 8s and 5s.
    I believe I am a 5, but I don't think I have ever experienced turning 7ish under stress. If anything, under stress I become withdrawn like a 5. When I have been in exceptionally good moods I have surprised myself by acting helpful and caring like a 2.

    Can anyone (preferably an E5) describe what it looks like when a 5 disintegrates into a 7? and have any 5s had occasional 2 tendencies?

    why I think I might be an 8.
    I never back down from conflict situations and have been known to instigate fights on occasion. When angered, I pretty much let it loose, and don't usually recognize anger until after or when someone points it out, though I am pretty slow to anger. I tend to think less of people who have shown themselves to been incapable, and I feel stressed when someone makes me feel incapable. When it comes to doing anything I don't want to, I'm hard to convince (not a "go with the group" kind of person). Strong need for independence.

    Why I don't think I'm an 8.
    I don't feel like I try to dominate people. I'm not forceful unless crossed or challenged. I'm not as "ready for action" as many descriptions describe. Don't consider myself a leader, but capable of leading.

    Why I think I'm a 5.
    I am fairly withdrawn/quiet and feel anxiety in unfamiliar social situations. Very cerebral/logical. At times nihilistic/melancholy. As a child, lived in "my own little world." Fairly private lifestyle.

    Why I don't think I'm a 5
    Don't relate to "knowledge-seeking", though I do value knowledge and will spend a lot of time researching things in areas of interest. Not very bookish (typically have no patience for reading unless I'm truly interested). Don't feel as disconnected from the world as I did when I was younger, though still have moments. Only half relate to the idea of having a "secret inner world."
    From my understanding this is what I consider 5 and 8

    Both 8 and 5 are natural "fearful" types, suspicious and confrontational at times, both emotionally reversed, and both generally masculine.

    8's have a key difference from 5 and vice versa.

    8's are offensive in conflicts, attempting to dominate their foes into submission
    5's are defensive in conflicts, attempting to defend their claims

    8's are subjective, consider things from their point of view and their likes/dislikes
    5's are objective, considering things from a logical observers point of view

    8's are fearful out of anger. They believe the world to be cruel, unjust and unsafe, and feel they must be tough to survive it.
    5's are fearful out of anxiety. They believe they must have a solid understanding of their world in order to be competent and get by.

    8's reserve their emotions because they perceive feelings as weakness, feeling opens them up to vulnerability which they dislike. They want to feel strong and powerful.
    5's reserve their emotions because they get caught up in a storm of thinking and are secretive/eccentric. They want to understand their feelings or else they feel anxious and unsure expressing them.

    8's are highly physical and need to act their anger and emotions out. Sports are a typical way they do this. Sex is a typical way they do this.
    5's are highly cerebral and need to investigate, experiment, observe, and analyze. Academic activities can be a way to do this, but it also could be something less obvious like TV or a Book or even people watching.

    There are more differences but I am failing to recall them at the moment.... with me I know I identify with both of these types in different situations, but am most appearantly 5.

    My feeling is you are more 5 also... most people honestly on this message board are more likely 5's than 8's.... the 8 would likely be a type that isn't interested in the enneagram... the 8's that do know about the enneagram are likely to come across it because it was in some business thing.

  4. #4

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    This is where I have an advantage as I have a lot of both 8 and 5 in me. Online I can pass for a five but in real life no five would accept me. Even online the fives won't accept me after awhile. I'm way too naturally physical and grounded. I dont come across as a fear-based type at all...rather nonchalant really. I don't have the urge to think about and assess stuff around me like a five does as I have confidence I can spontaneously handle worldly situations. I have more of an ego in being able to dominate physically than mentally. I'm a very reflexive driver and am equally comfortable in the physical realm as the mental realm if not moreso...while fives generally suck behind the wheel and are anything but smooth. I'm very instinctive unlike fives and my voice sounds naturally "guttish". I come across as too expansive for a five in every way really even though I am insular. People also react to me as an eight even when I think I'm acting more fivish. I agree on eights being much rarer online. It was an accident I ended up on the personality boards since they are not my natural habitat.

    5s are sensitive and feel overwhelmed by their emotions while eights pooh pooh and trivialize them. Fives generally like to read while eights can go either way. Eights intend for the world to contour itself around the way they go about their business and are on some level ticked off that the world doesn't conform to their wishes and grudgingly accept that they have to understand the way the world works. Fives put a much greater emphasis on whatever they communicate being well thought-out while eights may intentionally say something "sloppy" to fish for information that leads to a response like "what the hell are you saying?...that's BS"...and the eight is thinking..."thank you nerdboy now I have the gist of this 4 page article without having to read it". I've never seen a five do that.

    Eights feel very present in their bodies whereas fives feel very present in their heads at the expense of their bodies. Eights have "weighty" uninhibited expansiveness whereas fives are tighter there. Eights are naturals at dishing out and absorbing blows in fights. Eights have streetsmarts while fives instincts are poor which is why fives like to think things out in advance much more. Eights are natural leaders without trying to be. It's often more if they want to bother leading people that are just waiting to follow them.

    FWIW I've never seen an eight that seriously ever thought they were a five but I've seen some fives that think they are eights. Those fives betray themselves by being excessively analytical and exhibiting a certain quirky cleverness that fives consider cool but eights consider dorkish.

    To balance it out fives have a much easier time accepting their limitations outside of the mental realm. They usually don't have to learn things the hard way like eights do...AKA the "school of hard knocks". The gut types in general are more experiential learners.
    Last edited by MellowMarcello; 10-05-2009 at 03:17 PM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Mainly I'm concerned with dis/integration of 8s and 5s.
    I believe I am a 5, but I don't think I have ever experienced turning 7ish under stress. If anything, under stress I become withdrawn like a 5. When I have been in exceptionally good moods I have surprised myself by acting helpful and caring like a 2.

    Can anyone (preferably an E5) describe what it looks like when a 5 disintegrates into a 7? and have any 5s had occasional 2 tendencies?

    why I think I might be an 8.
    I never back down from conflict situations and have been known to instigate fights on occasion. When angered, I pretty much let it loose, and don't usually recognize anger until after or when someone points it out, though I am pretty slow to anger. I tend to think less of people who have shown themselves to been incapable, and I feel stressed when someone makes me feel incapable. When it comes to doing anything I don't want to, I'm hard to convince (not a "go with the group" kind of person). Strong need for independence.

    Why I don't think I'm an 8.
    I don't feel like I try to dominate people. I'm not forceful unless crossed or challenged. I'm not as "ready for action" as many descriptions describe. Don't consider myself a leader, but capable of leading.

    Why I think I'm a 5.
    I am fairly withdrawn/quiet and feel anxiety in unfamiliar social situations. Very cerebral/logical. At times nihilistic/melancholy. As a child, lived in "my own little world." Fairly private lifestyle.

    Why I don't think I'm a 5
    Don't relate to "knowledge-seeking", though I do value knowledge and will spend a lot of time researching things in areas of interest. Not very bookish (typically have no patience for reading unless I'm truly interested). Don't feel as disconnected from the world as I did when I was younger, though still have moments. Only half relate to the idea of having a "secret inner world."
    You seem like a five to me...maybe a five with an 8 fix but still a 5. The stuff that didn't jive with me I bolded.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellowMarcello View Post
    This is where I have an advantage as I have a lot of both 8 and 5 in me. Online I can pass for a five but in real life no five would accept me. Even online the fives won't accept me after awhile. I'm way too naturally physical and grounded. I dont come across as a fear-based type at all...rather nonchalant really. I don't have the urge to think about and assess stuff around me like a five does as I have confidence I can spontaneously handle worldly situations. I have more of an ego in being able to dominate physically than mentally. I'm a very reflexive driver and am equally comfortable in the physical realm as the mental realm if not moreso...while fives generally suck behind the wheel and are anything but smooth. I'm very instinctive unlike fives and my voice sounds naturally "guttish". I come across as too expansive for a five in every way really even though I am insular. People also react to me as an eight even when I think I'm acting more fivish. I agree on eights being much rarer online. It was an accident I ended up on the personality boards since they are not my natural habitat.

    5s are sensitive and feel overwhelmed by their emotions while eights pooh pooh and trivialize them. Fives generally like to read while eights can go either way. Eights intend for the world to contour itself around the way they go about their business and are on some level ticked off that the world doesn't conform to their wishes and grudgingly accept that they have to understand the way the world works. Fives put a much greater emphasis on whatever they communicate being well thought-out while eights may intentionally say something "sloppy" to fish for information that leads to a response like "what the hell are you saying?...that's BS"...and the eight is thinking..."thank you nerdboy now I have the gist of this 4 page article without having to read it". I've never seen a five do that.

    Eights feel very present in their bodies whereas fives feel very present in their heads at the expense of their bodies. Eights have "weighty" uninhibited expansiveness whereas fives are tighter there. Eights are naturals at dishing out and absorbing blows in fights. Eights have streetsmarts while fives instincts are poor which is why fives like to think things out in advance much more. Eights are natural leaders without trying to be. It's often more if they want to bother leading people that are just waiting to follow them.

    FWIW I've never seen an eight that seriously ever thought they were a five but I've seen some fives that think they are eights. Those fives betray themselves by being excessively analytical and exhibiting a certain quirky cleverness that fives consider cool but eights consider dorkish.

    To balance it out fives have a much easier time accepting their limitations outside of the mental realm. They usually don't have to learn things the hard way like eights do...AKA the "school of hard knocks". The gut types in general are more experiential learners.
    yep lol in my opinion I agree with everything you said, that sounds like the difference between 5 and 8 to me.

    I think that in common terms.... 8's are the thug, the rebel without a cause, the gangster, the badass, the shoot first ask question later, the jock, the aggresive driver, the corporate guru, the tough marine, the over protective father, the iron fist dictator, the harsh drill instructor, the unmovable guard.

    For that reason, 8's are probably the least intellectual of all the types besides some of the feeling types.... which are unintellectual but more in a warm/emotional way rather than a brute/tough kind of way.

    I think the only way for an 8 to even be somewhat intellectual is if they have 5 in their tritype. If 5 is leading the 5 is likely to be more action-oriented, assertive and confrontational with their ideas, if the 8 is leading the 8 is likely to spend time thinking - but mainly in the form of strategy.

    I personally conceptualize the enneagram in less strict terms, I know that certain types sound like me and certain types don't.... the 8 mildly sounds like me and is a facet of my personality, but the 5 is honestly truer to how I am most of the time. But I don't think thats bad because I prize intellect as a quality in myself and others... I like the assertiveness of the 8 and I like the action and excitement of the 8 and I like the boldness of the 8, but I dislike the stupidity and brute quality of the 8 and the idea of "might makes right".

  7. #7
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    Why is nobody looking at the generous and big brother/parental qualities of the Eight? Batman is an Eight. You're dissing Batman by calling Eights thugs.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Why is nobody looking at the generous and big brother/parental qualities of the Eight? Batman is an Eight. You're dissing Batman by calling Eights thugs.
    Consider that the thugs batman takes on are also likely 8's.... and are there more batmans or more thugs in gotham city? Eights usually develop in a positive sense to be protectors and heros, but in the negative sense they become antisocial barbarians and brutes. In reality they mostly land somewhere in between (and in reality there is no batman).

    In reality a typical 8 is likely to be liked for being a badass, but rarely loved. They seem too cold, direct, confrontational, restless, and over-protective for people to develop a love based attachment to them alot of the times, but it can obviously work out just the same because all those behaviors can just be an expression of love someone doesn't understand. I think the 8 choose to express themselves through action.
    Last edited by male; 10-05-2009 at 04:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Consider that the thugs batman takes on are also likely 8's.... and are there more batmans or more thugs in gotham city? Eights usually develop in a positive sense to be protectors and heros, but in the negative sense they become antisocial barbarians and brutes. In reality they mostly land somewhere in between (and in reality there is no batman).
    Ok, but are there more librarians or mad scientists in Gotham city? I just think Eights are being overly demonized in this thread, whereas Fives aren't getting nearly as negative a treatment.

    EDIT

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    In reality a typical 8 is likely to be liked for being a badass, but rarely loved. They seem too cold, direct, confrontational, restless, and over-protective for people to develop a love based attachment to them alot of the times, but it can obviously work out just the same because all those behaviors can just be an expression of love someone doesn't understand. I think the 8 choose to express themselves through action.
    I don't which Eights you're thinking of. I can think of two, and neither are "liked for being a badass".

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Ok, but are there more librarians or mad scientists in Gotham city? I just think Eights are being overly demonized in this thread, whereas Fives aren't getting nearly as negative a treatment.
    I am trying to be realistic.... of course 8's aren't worse than 5's.... but most 8's at the top of their development are like heros and protectors.... most 5's at the top of their games are like einsteins - prolific intellectuals.... 8's at the bottom of their game are sociopathic barbarians.... 5's at the bottom of their game are paranoid eccentrics..... but the key is both of the 5 and the 8 are in a personal struggle everyday to obtain the best potential that exists within them and to resist the worst potential that exist within them.... so in reality they have their ups and downs.

    EDIT

    I also think you overfixated on the word thug.... just as many 8's are thugs as they are policemen. Thugs grow up in impoverished areas with violence so they take up memberships to gangs as a form of protecting their community. Policemen grow up in lawful areas so they take up memberships in lawful organizations as a form of protecting their community. Both are just two different forms of people protecting their community.

    Don't take what I said as too statisical though, I was meaning to draw a point not establish a rigorous correlation between numbers.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    I don't which Eights you're thinking of. I can think of two, and neither are "liked for being a badass".
    Well I am taking the time to imagine the 8 as a metaphysical creation of a personality, rather than consider specific cases of 8's I have met, thats unreliable since you run the risk of mistyping.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    I am trying to be realistic.... of course 8's aren't worse than 5's.... but most 8's at the top of their development are like heros and protectors.... most 5's at the top of their games are like einsteins - prolific intellectuals.... 8's at the bottom of their game are sociopathic barbarians.... 5's at the bottom of their game are paranoid eccentrics..... but the key is both of the 5 and the 8 are in a personal struggle everyday to obtain the best potential that exists within them and to resist the worst potential that exist within them.... so in reality they have their ups and downs.
    Yes, in reality. As we'll see in your next post, you aren't talking about reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Well I am taking the time to imagine the 8 as a metaphysical creation of a personality, rather than consider specific cases of 8's I have met, thats unreliable since you run the risk of mistyping.
    Some metaphysical creation of personality isn't a person. It's a blob of silly putty that you can project whatever biases you want upon. And in your case, it seems to me that you think Eights are thugs? At the very least, it almost seems to me like you're arguing with me that Eights are human beings with positive attributes and flaws.

    I think you're worried about "mistyping" your Eights because these people don't jive with your image of the brute. Both the Eights I'm thinking of have problems with being too flat and direct and hurting people because of it, but both are very generous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Some metaphysical creation of personality isn't a person. It's a blob of silly putty that you can project whatever biases you want upon. And in your case, it seems to me that you think Eights are thugs?
    Well the 8 never was a real person... it was a metaphysical description which we attach to people in order to explain them. You should take a good look at yourself... you don't think you're projecting whatever biases exist within you when you type someone as an 8? It seems this accusation towards me is hipocritical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    At the very least, it almost seems to me like you're arguing with me that Eights are human beings with positive attributes and flaws.
    Thats exactly what I argued.... and its not at the very least.... I didn't say that at the very least.... I meant it 100%. I am trying to talk about how an 8 would realistically act... and you seem to think 8 = batman.... I don't think thats realistic.... its actually as far from it as you can get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    I think you're worried about "mistyping" your Eights because these people don't jive with your image of the brute. Both the Eights I'm thinking of have problems with being too flat and direct and hurting people because of it, but both are very generous.
    You think I am worried..... you think.... well your wrong. I am sorry you aren't the authority on what I think, I know what is going on inside my own head and I know my own intentions and that is not it.

    I am attempting to understand what the enneagram 8 personality is. Thats it, and your telling me I should abandon everything I have learned and submit to your idea on the basis that "2 people I know aren't like this"..... well have you considered they are mistyped? Have you considered that "thug" was only a single example of an 8, and there may be other different cases? Have you considered any of the implications what so ever? Or did you just abruptly jump onto your high horse and attempt to dismiss me before you have even taken a single drop of energy to understand what I am saying, galloping along proudly ignorant, hanging onto one single dimminuative perceived flaw in my explanation and milking it for all its worth without even considering the bigger picture of my viewpoint.

    How many time do I have to hammer this in..... thugs are typically 8's.... not all 8's are typically thugs..... its a simple logical idea.... if a statement is true, its converse isn't always true.... and thats your logical fallacy that is misrepresenting my idea. A misrepresentation which is fueling your accusations against me that I don't appreciate. I would like you to address this fallacy in particular, before I can take anything else you say with a single drop of seriousness.
    Last edited by male; 10-05-2009 at 05:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Well the 8 never was a real person... it was a metaphysical description which we attach to people in order to explain them. You should take a good look at yourself... you don't think you're projecting whatever biases exist within you when you type someone as an 8? It seems this accusation towards me is hipocritical.
    Sorry, only Gul is arrogantly allowed to proclaim what others are thinking. But yes, I'm biased. I'm biased towards looking at the high side of each style for each style. Perhaps you noticed? I would say that bias neatly avoids the problem of using any sort of diagnostic tool to create groups of "good people" and "bad people".

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Thats exactly what I argued.... and its not at the very least.... I didn't say that at the very least.... I meant it 100%. I am trying to talk about how an 8 would realistically act... and you seem to think 8 = batman.... I don't think thats realistic.... its actually as far from it as you can get.
    Nah, I think Batman is about the best example of an Eight you can get. Just because he's Batman. What's so confusing about this? I'm confused. Are you trying to use Wolverine as an example of an Eight? Wolverine isn't Batman. It's logic, man.

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    You think I am worried..... you think.... well your wrong. I am sorry you aren't the authority on what I think, I know what is going on inside my own head and I know my own intentions and that is not it.
    Ok, fair enough!

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    I am attempting to understand what the enneagram 8 personality is. Thats it, and your telling me I should abandon everything I have learned and submit to your idea on the basis that "2 people I know aren't like this"..... well have you considered they are mistyped? Have you considered that "thug" was only a single example of an 8, and there may be other different cases? Have you considered any of the implications what so ever?
    I'm telling you to abandon everything you've learned? I'm sorry if it sounds that way.

    Anyway, I can consider that nothing is knowable, that everything must be submitted to axioms and thus derived, or I can just assume that "I can know stuff" that happens to make sense to me and that I've observed. Constantly doubting everything to me seems like a fruitless exercise. If I make a mistake or don't view something correctly, someone will catch me out on it, much like you're picking apart the various misunderstandings I've made in the course of responding to your posts.

    Anyway, I haven't considered anything you haven't said, because I haven't heard you say it! I'm not a mind-reader or infinite reserve of knowledge. I respond to what I see, and what Gul was seeing was Eights being crapped on. Perhaps this was the way you were communicating? Perhaps this is my own sensitivity to people writing others off?

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Or did you just abruptly jump onto your high horse and attempt to dismiss me before you have even taken a single drop of energy to understand what I am saying, galloping along proudly ignorant, hanging onto one single dimminuative perceived flaw in my explanation and milking it for all its worth without even considering the bigger picture of my viewpoint.
    :redface:

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    How many time do I have to hammer this in..... thugs are typically 8's.... not all 8's are typically thugs..... its a simple logical idea.... if a statement is true, its converse isn't always true.... and thats your logical fallacy that is misrepresenting my idea. A misrepresentation which is fueling your accusations against me that I don't appreciate.
    Once? That would be the first time you've ever hammered anything in.

  15. #15

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    While 8s will extend their protective umbrella to shield the worthy and the innocent...they indulge in being "badder" than the bad to meet out punishment to those who deserve it. Every eight does think of themselves as "badass" and that they have the stomach and lust even for what most people find unsettling. How much of it is visible depends on the eight and the situation. But basically it's "I'm too much of a badass to care about whatever inner needs I have".

    Eights are the type of people who if you say they are a thug...they might smile and go "damn straight" while bending over to give a kid a free ice cream cone.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellowMarcello View Post
    While 8s will extend their protective umbrella to shield the worthy and the innocent...they indulge in being "badder" than the bad to meet out punishment to those who deserve it. Every eight does think of themselves as "badass" and that they have the stomach and lust even for what most people find unsettling. How much of it is visible depends on the eight and the situation. But basically it's "I'm too much of a badass to care about whatever inner needs I have".

    Eights are the type of people who if you say they are a thug...they might smile and go "damn straight" while bending over to give a kid a free ice cream cone.
    lol I agree with this... I never meant thug in a purely negative way. They are just tough people, but really that desire comes from them needing to be strong and they have a heart for protecting innocence.

  17. #17
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    First before I begin Gul.... I'd like to say I am not really trying to frame you as guilty/wrong or anything. Your a nice person, but I dislike when I feel like I am misrepresented in my ideas. So with that said let the debate continue, all in good game of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Sorry, only Gul is arrogantly allowed to proclaim what others are thinking. But yes, I'm biased. I'm biased towards looking at the high side of each style for each style. Perhaps you noticed? I would say that bias neatly avoids the problem of using any sort of diagnostic tool to create groups of "good people" and "bad people".
    I like looking at the extreme cases, because it helps me develop a clear distinction between two categories. I thought the thug would be an extreme case of an 8.... a subspace if you will that uniquely exist within the space of 8 and not within the space of 5. Saying something like 8's are students in high school is not a convincing argument because that subspace is not unique to 8's or 5's or really any enneagram type. I said thug to purposefully be extreme... but by no means did I suggest that all 8's must be thugs.... alot of 8's can be found in a variety of situations and circumstances other that just being thugs.

    My intention wasn't to create groups of "good" and "bad" people.... I even reject the idea that thug is a bad person. Like I said considering the thug to be an 8 opens up a perspective that they aren't "bad" people but are merely attempting to protect their own and falling prey to the same pitfalls all 8's share.



    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Nah, I think Batman is about the best example of an Eight you can get. Just because he's Batman. What's so confusing about this? I'm confused. Are you trying to use Wolverine as an example of an Eight? Wolverine isn't Batman. It's logic, man.
    Lol wow.... my point was you criticized me for using metaphysics because it was "Unreal"... but batman is a metaphysical character.... no person is really batman, hes just a figment of some writers imagination, as are character for film, as are the characters actors bring to life... but that doesn't mean that what you experience as these characters are not "real". And if all that is true, then it seem ridiculous for you to criticize me for using my imagination to imagine up an infinite number of 8 characters in order to understand what an enneagram 8 is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Anyway, I can consider that nothing is knowable, that everything must be submitted to axioms and thus derived, or I can just assume that "I can know stuff" that happens to make sense to me and that I've observed. Constantly doubting everything to me seems like a fruitless exercise. If I make a mistake or don't view something correctly, someone will catch me out on it, much like you're picking apart the various misunderstandings I've made in the course of responding to your posts.

    Anyway, I haven't considered anything you haven't said, because I haven't heard you say it! I'm not a mind-reader or infinite reserve of knowledge. I respond to what I see, and what Gul was seeing was Eights being crapped on. Perhaps this was the way you were communicating? Perhaps this is my own sensitivity to people writing others off?
    Everything you say here is true, you can't always be doubting everything and you can't derive everything from axioms and you aren't a mind-reader. But thats really not the point here, I don't expect any of that and the only reason I mentioned it was because I felt you were being overconfident in your criticism. I don't expect anyone to always be correct, even myself, but I expect people to realize this as I expect myself to realize it.

    I was just upset because I pictured the situation like this.....

    I was just on here discussing my thoughts and you jumped in "An enneagram type 8 is in trouble, Gul must come to save the day from this villanous slander that is being spewed on here.... I must take up the pen as a sword and right this wrong, setting the score straight."

    In other words I think you over-reacted in a cavalierish fashion, when all I was doing was thinking.... and really honestly like I said this all impenges on you thinking I said 8's are thugs.... when I said thugs are 8's. Plus I really don't feel like attaching a disclaimer onto every post I make about enneagram with a description of every type at their best.... everyone who has taken 2 seconds to read up on the enneagram knows that 8's are magnimous and heroic at their best, protecting the innocent. I don't feel the need to include this in every post and I think from common experience heros are rare, so its unrealistic to pretend every type 8 is automatically a superhero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Once? That would be the first time you've ever hammered anything in.
    And I hope its the last :wink:
    Last edited by male; 10-05-2009 at 08:34 PM.

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    Batman is intuitive and a five-fixed eight so is unusually cerebral for an eight. The prototypical eight is a 6w5 fixer(augments toughness)...is a sensor...and has a 2 or 3 image fix(protective tendencies or worldly movers and shakers respectively). Donald Trump is pretty stereotypical...ESTJ sp/so 8w7-6w5-3w2 which is why he's one of the favorite examples for type eight used by enneagram authors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MellowMarcello View Post
    Batman is intuitive and a five-fixed eight so is unusually cerebral for an eight. The prototypical eight is a 6w5 fixer(augments toughness)...is a sensor...and has a 2 or 3 image fix(protective tendencies or worldly movers and shakers respectively). Donald Trump is pretty stereotypical...ESTJ sp/so 8w7-6w5-3w2 which is why he's one of the favorite examples for type eight used by enneagram authors.
    I think it also matter which batman your talking about... as a character he has developed drastically over the years... for example nolan's recent film depicts a different batman than the laughably ridiculous batman from the 1960's movie or the batman from tim burton's odd faniciful gotham.

    At any rate I think both batman and trump are good solid examples of an 8....

    I think helga from the cartoon "Hey Arnold" is a good example a young female type 8. She is highly protective of her feelings and has a tough exterior. Here is a compliation of some clips.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpwFk0jAQBg&feature=related]YouTube - The Best of Helga (Part One)[/ame]

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    A lot of good info. Although, I do relate to 8, ultimately it comes down to a majority of 5 traits.

    Although I have strong will and am connected to most situations. I believe I deal with things too slowly and methodically to be an 8.

    thanks for clarifying that, all.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    A lot of good info. Although, I do relate to 8, ultimately it comes down to a majority of 5 traits.

    Although I have strong will and am connected to most situations. I believe I deal with things too slowly and methodically to be an 8.

    thanks for clarifying that, all.
    Have you considered that 8 exists within your tritype?

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    [quote=MellowMarcello;568529]This is where I have an advantage as I have a lot of both 8 and 5 in me. Online I can pass for a five but in real life no five would accept me. Even online the fives won't accept me after awhile. I'm way too naturally physical and grounded. I dont come across as a fear-based type at all...rather nonchalant really. I don't have the urge to think about and assess stuff around me like a five does as I have confidence I can spontaneously handle worldly situations. I have more of an ego in being able to dominate physically than mentally. I'm a very reflexive driver and am equally comfortable in the physical realm as the mental realm if not moreso...while fives generally suck behind the wheel and are anything but smooth. I'm very instinctive unlike fives and my voice sounds naturally "guttish". I come across as too expansive for a five in every way really even though I am insular. People also react to me as an eight even when I think I'm acting more fivish. I agree on eights being much rarer online. It was an accident I ended up on the personality boards since they are not my natural habitat.

    5s are sensitive and feel overwhelmed by their emotions while eights pooh pooh and trivialize them. Fives generally like to read while eights can go either way. Eights intend for the world to contour itself around the way they go about their business and are on some level ticked off that the world doesn't conform to their wishes and grudgingly accept that they have to understand the way the world works. Fives put a much greater emphasis on whatever they communicate being well thought-out while eights may

    intentionally say something "sloppy" to fish for information that leads to a response like "what the hell are you saying?...that's BS"...and the eight is thinking..."thank you nerdboy now I have the gist of this 4 page article without having to read it". I've never seen a five do that.
    4s do that too.

    so a 5 could...

    Eights feel very present in their bodies whereas fives feel very present in their heads at the expense of their bodies. Eights have "weighty" uninhibited expansiveness whereas fives are tighter there. Eights are naturals at dishing out and absorbing blows in fights. Eights have streetsmarts while fives instincts are poor which is why fives like to think things out in advance much more. Eights are natural leaders without trying to be. It's often more if they want to bother leading people that are just waiting to follow them.
    that's just about adrenaline. 5s can gethigh on adrenaline too surely.

    FWIW I've never seen an eight that seriously ever thought they were a five but I've seen some fives that think they are eights. Those fives betray themselves by being excessively analytical and exhibiting a certain quirky cleverness that fives consider cool but eights consider dorkish.
    some 8w9s appear very dorkish. some 8w7s appear childish.

    To balance it out fives have a much easier time accepting their limitations outside of the mental realm. They usually don't have to learn things the hard way like eights do...AKA the "school of hard knocks". The gut types in general are more experiential learners.
    EVERYONE learns things the hard way. some just admit to it more than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Consider that the thugs batman takes on are also likely 8's.... and are there more batmans or more thugs in gotham city? Eights usually develop in a positive sense to be protectors and heros, but in the negative sense they become antisocial barbarians and brutes. In reality they mostly land somewhere in between (and in reality there is no batman).

    In reality a typical 8 is likely to be liked for being a badass, but rarely loved. They seem too cold, direct, confrontational, restless, and over-protective for people to develop a love based attachment to them alot of the times, but it can obviously work out just the same because all those behaviors can just be an expression of love someone doesn't understand. I think the 8 choose to express themselves through action.
    that's the w ay of the world. most people are assholes. there are only a few nice people. and the nice ones are freak. then there are a few positive people... but they're not always nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Well I am taking the time to imagine the 8 as a metaphysical creation of a personality, rather than consider specific cases of 8's I have met, thats unreliable since you run the risk of mistyping.

    everything's unreliable. go back to sleep. it's safe there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    that's the w ay of the world. most people are assholes. there are only a few nice people. and the nice ones are freak. then there are a few positive people... but they're not always nice.
    Amen brother, I could drink to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    everything's unreliable. go back to sleep. it's safe there.
    as far as I am concerned I rely on myself, and when that fails I'll be dead and won't care. I'll sleep when I die and make the most of what good there is in life until it slips away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Amen brother, I could drink to that.
    Drinks are on you tonight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    as far as I am concerned I rely on myself, and when that fails I'll be dead and won't care. I'll sleep when I die.
    I rely on other people. In some ways I'd rather not. But I have no choice.

    They make it that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    I rely on other people. In some ways I'd rather not. But I have no choice.

    They make it that way.
    I don't really rely on people (I try not to at least), but in some ways I am attracted towards people. Instead of wanting to rely on people I want people to rely on me... it gives me more meaning to what I do with my life I find, to know my actions can affect another person and the prize for success isn't some ribbon or award but another person's prosperity.

    Then again that makes me feel strange because so many people like to rely on others... I don't always like it when a person is serving me though, it feels patronizing sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    I don't really rely on people (I try not to at least), but in some ways I am attracted towards people. Instead of wanting to rely on people I want people to rely on me... it gives me more meaning to what I do with my life I find, to know my actions can affect another person and the prize for success isn't some ribbon or award but another person's prosperity.
    I want people not to rely on me. Else they got all involved and shit. I hate clingy / needy people. I like independent people. I love it when people don't need me. And then if they struggle I can help them "just enough" to get them past where they are, and then let go. And ideally in the same situation again they will be fine on their own.

    Maybe it's a strange way of looking at things. But I want to build people up to be better people, not maintain them at the same level - if I disappear they should be fine on their own, not drop -

    Actions can easily affect other people. And real prospiety isn't just feeding people cos they're hungry.

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    [quote=mercutio;568615]
    Quote Originally Posted by MellowMarcello View Post
    This is where I have an advantage as I have a lot of both 8 and 5 in me. Online I can pass for a five but in real life no five would accept me. Even online the fives won't accept me after awhile. I'm way too naturally physical and grounded. I dont come across as a fear-based type at all...rather nonchalant really. I don't have the urge to think about and assess stuff around me like a five does as I have confidence I can spontaneously handle worldly situations. I have more of an ego in being able to dominate physically than mentally. I'm a very reflexive driver and am equally comfortable in the physical realm as the mental realm if not moreso...while fives generally suck behind the wheel and are anything but smooth. I'm very instinctive unlike fives and my voice sounds naturally "guttish". I come across as too expansive for a five in every way really even though I am insular. People also react to me as an eight even when I think I'm acting more fivish. I agree on eights being much rarer online. It was an accident I ended up on the personality boards since they are not my natural habitat.

    5s are sensitive and feel overwhelmed by their emotions while eights pooh pooh and trivialize them. Fives generally like to read while eights can go either way. Eights intend for the world to contour itself around the way they go about their business and are on some level ticked off that the world doesn't conform to their wishes and grudgingly accept that they have to understand the way the world works. Fives put a much greater emphasis on whatever they communicate being well thought-out while eights may



    4s do that too.

    we're comparing 8s and 5s here.

    so a 5 could...

    Fives place too much of a premium on what they communicate being well thought out. They won't intentionally look stupid to cut to the chase. They'll read the document before commentating on it so they don't look dumb.

    that's just about adrenaline. 5s can gethigh on adrenaline too surely.

    5s have to power up. 8s are nonchalantly physical. It's their default state to feel embodied as opposed to being in their heads. The adrenaline isn't necessary. Eights will posture people in fights by looking bored even. When a 5 fights the last thing he looks is nonchalant.


    some 8w9s appear very dorkish. some 8w7s appear childish.

    not in a nerdish/bookish way



    EVERYONE learns things the hard way. some just admit to it more than others.

    Deterrents like shame and fear(both of which the eight is in short supply) make it easier to learn in a less costly manner. Being head center primary makes it easier to use their head center to navigate life(books,systems,instructions,news,etc).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    I want people not to rely on me. Else they got all involved and shit. I hate clingy / needy people. I like independent people. I love it when people don't need me. And then if they struggle I can help them "just enough" to get them past where they are, and then let go. And ideally in the same situation again they will be fine on their own.

    Maybe it's a strange way of looking at things. But I want to build people up to be better people, not maintain them at the same level - if I disappear they should be fine on their own, not drop -

    Actions can easily affect other people. And real prospiety isn't just feeding people cos they're hungry.
    Lol I don't like clingy people either.... lol I didn't mean I want to be surrounded by clingy/needy people but rather that I want to feel like I serve a purpose in the social picture... that I contribute to something greater than myself by helping others and that my work influences other people in a positive way. I also feel the whole impulse to have bonds with people where you are both there for each other.... what I dislike is when that bond becomes childish and its about dependance rather than mutual prosperity.

    and about feeding people cos they're hungy... I know what goes here... fish for a man and feed him for a day.... etc etc etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Have you considered that 8 exists within your tritype?
    I have considered it, but now I'm wondering if maybe I'm a 1... or at least maybe trifix 1.
    Despite not really feeling the need to right all the time, situations in which I have been wronged or misunderstood are the typical situations in which I go into confrontational mode.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Lol I don't like clingy people either.... lol I didn't mean I want to be surrounded by clingy/needy people but rather that I want to feel like I serve a purpose in the social picture... that I contribute to something greater than myself by helping others and that my work influences other people in a positive way. I also feel the whole impulse to have bonds with people where you are both there for each other.... what I dislike is when that bond becomes childish and its about dependance rather than mutual prosperity.

    and about feeding people cos they're hungy... I know what goes here... fish for a man and feed him for a day.... etc etc etc
    Then choose your inner circle by hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    Then choose your inner circle by hand.
    You have all been hand selected among an elite group of 5 billion which composes the human race. You have been selected among this prestiguous group for one reason and one reason alone; because you are the best, and don't forget that. Your loyalty and dedication lies exclusively with the inner circle. There are 3 rules. One, never put the circle in danger. Two, never put your own needs above the circle. and the most important rule of all, never let an outsider into the circle without permission of every member in the circle. Raise your hand and swear undying allegiance to the circle and you may be permitted to join.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    You have all been hand selected among an elite group of 5 billion which composes the human race. You have been selected among this prestiguous group for one reason and one reason alone; because you are the best, and don't forget that. Your loyalty and dedication lies exclusively with the inner circle. There are 3 rules. One, never put the circle in danger. Two, never put your own needs above the circle. and the most important rule of all, never let an outsider into the circle without permission of every member in the circle. Raise your hand and swear undying allegiance to the circle and you may be permitted to join.
    allegiance to the leader - not to the group

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    Then choose your inner circle by hand.
    sounds like all you guys are doing is making a circle with your hand and beating off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    sounds like all you guys are doing is making a circle with your hand and beating off.
    circle jerk!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    circle jerk!
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soggy_biscuit]Soggy biscuit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    Don't be last

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    allegiance to the leader - not to the group
    The leader is not a member of the group, instead the leader created the group over 50 milennia ago, concealing its true creator. The leader does not activitely participate in the group but instead chooses to watch its member from afar and study them. The leader is one of the earliest forms of sentience in the universe but has no true physical form. The leader himself comes from another existence which bridges with ours weakly allowing himself to jump occasionally into our existance. The leaders intentions are unknown, but he is always watching the group and observing to collect information for unknown purposes. Don't talk too loud though, the leader may be listening.

    lol I am sure azeroth loves us hijacking this thread into such nonsense.

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