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Thread: Right vs Wrong

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    Default Right vs. Wrong

    How do you usually think when you're considering whether something is right or wrong?

    Correct vs. Incorrect
    Good vs. Evil
    Wise vs. Foolish
    Proper vs. Improper

    Etc.
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    Ummm.

    It's cliche but "logically consistent vs logically inconsistent"

    unless of course its factual and then its "presense vs absense"

    Whatever is logically consistent is wise, proper, correct, "good" to me.
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    For me it pretty much always come down to wise vs. foolish in the end. I don't feel comfortable determining good vs. evil, so I just look at the probable outcome of something and make decisions based off of that. And logical consistency is only as good as it is useful.
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    out of those, I'd pick wise vs. foolish. taking into account the long-term ramifications, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    out of those,
    Feel free to add your own.

    I'd pick wise vs. foolish. taking into account the long-term ramifications, etc.
    Exactly.
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    LOL
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    From a pure emotional standpoint. "Hmm, how would I feel if that were to happen to me?"

    It kinda makes me have this compassion for all of humankind, but from a safe distance. I don't get involved much, and am sometimes overly conscientious of my actions. In real life, people enjoy when I'm assertive and in a 'kick ass mode' as my first impression is 'shy lil gay emo boy.' I think most people on here are like that, regardless of the type. I can express myself well in writing, but irl I clam up. It's hard for me to feel like I'm as understood, so I just kinda stay silent and be the 'listener.' When I bit back in life, people were amused.

    My weakness seems to be my moral high horse. It's my greatest strength and weakness, actually- because I have this superiority complex and inferiority complex all rolled into one. (Much like Buffy, who I relate with a lot. Both Buffy and Johnathon really)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Yeah, but Batman's only a movie.
    Still not comfortable. I feel like I have no basis for making such determinations, so how could I, even in matters of fiction?
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    When I'm judging someone else's actions, "Good or Evil" or "wise or foolish." When I judge my own actions, "wise or foolish."
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Feels bad/feels good. Roughly equivalent to pleasant state/unpleasant state. I'm a lot more relaxed with judging other people than I am myself, largely because if someone else's conduct doesn't sit with me, I tend to displace the negativity back on myself or just ignore the person.

    EDIT

    Well, I will make judgements of "treating others well" versus "causing others needless unpleasantness".

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    From a pure emotional standpoint. "Hmm, how would I feel if that were to happen to me?"

    It kinda makes me have this compassion for all of humankind, but from a safe distance. I don't get involved much, and am sometimes overly conscientious of my actions. In real life, people enjoy when I'm assertive and in a 'kick ass mode' as my first impression is 'shy lil gay emo boy.' I think most people on here are like that, regardless of the type. I can express myself well in writing, but irl I clam up. It's hard for me to feel like I'm as understood, so I just kinda stay silent and be the 'listener.' When I bit back in life, people were amused.

    My weakness seems to be my moral high horse. It's my greatest strength and weakness, actually- because I have this superiority complex and inferiority complex all rolled into one. (Much like Buffy, who I relate with a lot. Both Buffy and Johnathon really)
    Happy vs. Sad?
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    Empathy, and emotional connection with others (however small) is a good evidence and substance if what you are doing is right or wrong. Since 'right' and 'wrong' as mere notions or ideas simply do not exist, and if you were to judge right and wrong by those standards, you would simply be doing what zealous, fundamentalist Christians do to people: Think they're helping others, and they have good intentions but they're actually making the problem much worse.

    Rape is wrong not cause it's forceful or even violent, it's wrong because you are not taking that other person's feelings/will into account. (If you wish for somebody else to be violent it can actually be helpful psychologically but that is different then somebody hurting you against your will) And it's not just sexual rape, anytime you refuse to be empathetic to another person, you are raping them. You don't have to be....100% empathetic (and that's impossible), but you should have some insight that the way they view/feel the world is different from your own. (And it's strange to me how so many people still have a hard time with this, and see other people as another extensions of themselves)

    This is annoying because in order to function in this world we have to integrate our identities to how other people view us as well. For example, I can't expect to get anybody to like me if I am myself 100% because that also indirectly implies that I be a sociopath, like if I want to gay rant but I realize other people aren't in the mood: It would just start a fight if I give into my own temptations, right? But at the same time people feel like they shouldn't have to life solely for others or sacrifice themselves totally for people: it drains your energy. (and such actions would inevitably get you to fester up and bottle secret loathing for your fellow man) So it's a balancing act between getting your needs met and respecting others, which is what secular humanism assertive training is, and is probably the closest thing we have to good ethics IMO. People sometimes get upset when their friends preach to the choir but preaching at anybody else results in them just getting angry with you.

    Or in basic Christian theology, you have to understand first to be understood. It always works that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Feels bad/feels good. Roughly equivalent to pleasant state/unpleasant state.
    That's Fe.
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    good/evil or proper/improper (obviously according to my measures of these things). also, calling something improper type of wrong can be meant in a good way if it's about something that's interesting/amusing as well as "wrong". (example... "that's just wrong!" while having a big grin over it ) usually this type of wrong isn't something that I'd do myself, but it's funny to hear about or see somebody else do.

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    Theoretically, but it sounded more like an ethical determination than a sensory one.
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    Happy vs. Sad?
    Uh it's not really this simple but I guess yeah. The problem is that it feels good to do the wrong thing, because when you label something as wrong, it's a psychological rush when people give into it. That's why we have to demystify people who rape and serial kill and stuff like that you know? The people who seem to be the most virtuous actually just understand this a little too well, they realize they get off on abuse so they're more umm understanding and 'wordly' about it or something.

    I could get into a long rant about how sexual violence turns me on, like men being realistically abusive but I don't want to get into it as it's probably too controversial or something. And how when people are 'nice' to me it can feel more horrible than somebody stabbing me in the chest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Uh it's not really this simple but I guess yeah. The problem is that it feels good to do the wrong thing, because when you label something as wrong, it's a psychological rush when people give into it. That's why we have to demystify people who rape and serial kill and stuff like that you know? The people who seem to be the most virtuous actually just understand this a little too well, they realize they get off on abuse so they're more umm understanding and 'wordly' about it or something.

    I could get into a long rant about how sexual violence turns me on, like men being realistically abusive but I don't want to get into it as it's probably too controversial or something. And how when people are 'nice' to me it can feel more horrible than somebody stabbing me in the chest.
    This is very self-aware. I would wonder why I feel that way if it were me though. And what will come of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Theoretically, but it sounded more like an ethical determination than a sensory one.
    It's an Irrational determination. You completely ignored Ne. Ne base hates psychological tension like the plague. Nps have states just as Sps do.

    The Ethical consideration is "makes others feel bad = wrong".

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    Thanks Joy but I don't really recommend that people be as umm internalized or as self-aware as me. It's actually pretty hard. But I do it cause I don't know....it fascinates me, and I kinda can't help it.

    Sirena and I talked about this before, that when you sort the evil out in your head and in roleplay, it really is very theraputic and stuff. Instead of demonizing people with hurtful urges (and everybody has them) they just have to be channeled appropriately. Because we can't deny that it ultimately feels good to be the inflictor in a way. And we kinda resent that and we try to punish people for things that we ourselves want to do. 'If you spot it, you got it' has never rung more true.

    So that's the moral dillemma, we all have to recognize the evil/sociopath inside of us most of us all if we ever hope to do good, cause that's where it's the most strongest. After all when you look in the mirror trying to see Dracula behind you, all you ever see is your own reflection.

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    1. Correct vs. Incorrect
    2. Wise vs. Foolish
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    I suppose I'm too long-winded. My short reply is definitely Good vs. Evil.

    Correct/Incorrect via right or wrong is silly for me. For example would you chastise and make others feel bad just because they are *Incorrect?* Your reaction to the person having the wrong answer would be more wrong than if they were merely incorrect.

    Chris Crocker said something so poignant on his blog once. He said, you can be smart and still be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    It's an Irrational determination. You completely ignored Ne. Ne base hates psychological tension like the plague. Nps have states just as Sps do.
    I'll take your word for it.

    The Ethical consideration is "makes others feel bad = wrong".
    Fi ego types usually have a much more static system for making determinations of right and wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Thanks Joy but I don't really recommend that people be as umm internalized or as self-aware as me. It's actually pretty hard. But I do it cause I don't know....it fascinates me, and I kinda can't help it.
    Thinking too much can definitely be problematic.

    Sirena and I talked about this before, that when you sort the evil out in your head and in roleplay, it really is very theraputic and stuff. Instead of demonizing people with hurtful urges (and everybody has them) they just have to be channeled appropriately. Because we can't deny that it ultimately feels good to be the inflictor in a way. And we kinda resent that and we try to punish people for things that we ourselves want to do. 'If you spot it, you got it' has never rung more true.

    So that's the moral dillemma, we all have to recognize the evil/sociopath inside of us most of us all if we ever hope to do good, cause that's where it's the most strongest. After all when you look in the mirror trying to see Dracula behind you, all you ever see is your own reflection.
    I'm not sure I can relate. I really don't see much violence or evil around me. But then again, I don't watch the news and try to avoid violent movies/TV shows (simply because I don't enjoy them). I believe that everyone is capable of doing horrible things if they allow their thought processes to lead them in that direction, but I don't think of it as them having evil lurking within them all the time.

    I definitely agree that role playing is WAY better than suppressing urges though!
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    Correct vs Incorrect
    ~wise vs foolish

    I find correct vs incorrect to be the only way to look at situation clearly, all the others are highly subjective especially good vs evil, and I have an adverse reaction to people who expect others to adhere to this kind of judgment.

    judging something to be good/evil is just naive to me. No one considers themselves truly evil. Everyone is acting for their own idea of good. The real question is why they consider their actions good.

    I do use wise vs foolish in situations of grey uncertainty though, but I'd call it safe vs risky rather than wise vs foolish.

    My ideas of right and wrong are highly utilitarian (creating the greatest accumulative happiness by any means necessary).
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 10-04-2009 at 11:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    How do you usually think when you're considering whether something is right or wrong?

    Correct vs. Incorrect
    Good vs. Evil
    Wise vs. Foolish
    Proper vs. Improper

    Etc.
    Wise vs. Foolish
    Good vs. Evil
    Proper vs. Improper

    In that order. Wise vs Foolish is probably the most appealing to me, Good vs Evil although sounds quite awful is a close second. When I say Good vs Evil, I have in mind Good intentions vs Bad intentions or something along the lines. Proper vs Improper is sometimes I also consider sometimes, but it has to be really way out of place, most likely things I would consider easily fall into Wise vs Foolish category anyway. Correct vs. Incorrect is something I have a hard time with, unless it is 100% clear to me that it is one way or another, which to say the truth does not happen that often to me, I leave space for doubt in most cases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    Correct vs. Incorrect is something I have a hard time with, unless it is 100% clear to me that it is one way or another, which to say the truth does not happen that often to me, I leave space for doubt in most cases.
    I feel the somewhat similar. And even if something is incorrect, the outcome is what really matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    How do you usually think when you're considering whether something is right or wrong?

    Correct vs. Incorrect
    Good vs. Evil
    Wise vs. Foolish
    Proper vs. Improper

    Etc.
    I don't think in terms of good versus evil, but the other three I consider together when I make decisions. Then I don't pay attention to my considering and do the stupid thing anyway. four times in a row... without protection... and now she wants a relationship... I'M A HORRIBLE PERSON, please punch me.

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    You're going to have much more than a relationship with her if you keep that up.
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    i'm right you're wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waddlesworth View Post
    I don't think in terms of good versus evil, but the other three I consider together when I make decisions. Then I don't pay attention to my considering and do the stupid thing anyway. four times in a row... without protection... and now she wants a relationship... I'M A HORRIBLE PERSON, please punch me.
    put her on the pill

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    He doesn't want to be with her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    He doesn't want to be with her.
    i thought he just didn't want a relationship.

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    If you're with someone, you're in a relationship.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    i'm right you're wrong
    lol i think i like this one the best.

    i don't think in those dialectic categories in practical application. typically i'd be more situation specific and holistic or something. rank ordering and picking one over the other??? eh. depends on what's really going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    If you're with someone, you're in a relationship.
    relationship sounds all commited like


    you can be with someone temporarily too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    relationship sounds all commited like


    you can be with someone temporarily too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    How do you usually think when you're considering whether something is right or wrong?

    Correct vs. Incorrect
    Good vs. Evil
    Wise vs. Foolish
    Proper vs. Improper

    Etc.
    Well for me its pretty instinctive... I don't think forever on it, and even when I do, I don't think about how I think about it.... but I'll attempt to break my process down.

    For me I think the key word in Right vs Wrong is Actions
    I don't think a "Wrong" thought exists, I don't think a "Wrong" feeling exists... I think the only "Wrong" there is is in the actions that are commited

    I can easily classify 3 types of "Wrongs/Rights"
    -Neglegant Wrong/Right
    -Volitional Wrong/Right
    -Customary Wrong/Right

    Neglegant Wrong/Right is where a person does something wrong or right, but they never intended to. Its like how a person may fail to check and make sure the brakes they installed worked because they were careless and another person crashes the car and dies. They didn't intend to kill a person but their neglect unintentionally caused something wrong and preventable to occur. It can work in the positive sense too, doing something that helps someone but unintentionally.

    Volitional Wrong/Right is where you do something to another person out of your concious will that either harms or helps that person. I think if you contribute positively to another that is Right. If you contribute negatively to another that is Wrong. But this is even simplistic as it impenges on your ability to discern what is helping and what is harming. Mostly this is obvious but in the case of say a suicidial person... is helping them preventing them from killing themselves or aiding them in releiving their pain? Its hard to know the answer to this for sure, but you have to go with what you believe and I think the ultimate test of wrong/right in this case lies within your intention and inner motive... something that "god" and you (and I mean that loosely - for those aethists out there) can only know for sure. Alot of times a person can do something that looks good on the outside but inside they harbor alterior motives.... and remember this is volitional.... for it to be wrong they must be aware of those alterior motives.... if they unintentionally bring about some devestating course of events I think its different... but there is no test to know this for sure, only a person can know this within their own "heart", what intentions lie within themselves.

    I think customary right/wrong is like stoplights.... running a red light at 5am at night with no traffic, doesn't harm anyone but its still "wrong" because its a convention or custom. I honestly think customary right/wrongs are a waste of time worrying about.... I generally try to follow them if it doesn't interfere with some deeper issue. In moral dilemmas I usually place these on the lowest priority.

    I think these 3 classifications are critical because I think its the volitional right/wrongs that matter most... neglegant right/wrong can easily be forgiven and customary right/wrong is lowest priority.

    Thats generally how I conceptualize right/wrong.... alot of it is focused on the themes of Intentions, Actions, and The big Picture..... in general I don't get caught up on the little details concerned with rules, proper procedure, social expectations, and thoughts.... I think its ridiculous how moralistic people will slam people with guilt for thinking/feeling evil thoughts.... I think its perfectly acceptable for a person to feel like they want to kill another human being because anger gets so intense.... but I think the test of a person's character is in their ability to make a willful decision to not act on those thoughts and instead act on more lofty/high minded thoughts instead that contributes to something more inspirational than just death. I think social expectations are ridiculous as well in many cases and rules are just arbitrary conventions that aren't part of any greater meaning.

  37. #37
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Damn, there's too much thought in this thread. I'm probably pretty close to what Gul said, actually. And BG on the 'improper' ing.

    Hurting people hurts a lot of the time. Like when you say or do something and you watch someone's face bunch up like you stabbed them in the heart. You realize you're the knife and that's the last thing you ever would want to be. When people make you feel too sharp, you learn to dull yourself. You cut away a part of yourself so no one else winds up scarred.

    Uh...what is it with whiskey and TMI.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Evil vs Foolish

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Damn, there's too much thought in this thread. I'm probably pretty close to what Gul said, actually. And BG on the 'improper' ing.

    Hurting people hurts a lot of the time. Like when you say or do something and you watch someone's face bunch up like you stabbed them in the heart. You realize you're the knife and that's the last thing you ever would want to be. When people make you feel too sharp, you learn to dull yourself. You cut away a part of yourself so no one else winds up scarred.

    Uh...what is it with whiskey and TMI.
    I agree with this... but occasionally part of me thinks that sometimes people need to hear things that hurt. I mean its like when you take candy away from a child its going to cry... but the child really doesn't need candy, the child doesn't know what it needs and is just chasing after what pleases them in the moment.

    I know that sounds horrible but some choices in life require you to choose between two bad outcomes... like romance, lets say 2 guys like a girl... the girl can only really choose one and the other one will be hurt, but if the love isn't true there is nothing that that person can do about it.... it may hurt them like hell but like the child they may just be crying over candy they don't need, they may just be chasing after what pleases them in the moment.

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    who are you and why is that your avatar?!
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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