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Thread: INTjs-LIIs not admitting when they are wrong

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Default INTjs-LIIs not admitting when they are wrong

    I was having a conversation with my brother the other day. He was telling me that my biggest problem is that I never admit that I'm wrong. This was in reference to a specific issue. The problem was that I was certain that I was right about this particular issue. Then, I thought about it. Even in school, there have been times when I've done badly at particular tests. In these cases, I didn't think that my study strategy was "wrong", it was just that the elements of chance caused me to do poorly, or the test wasn't well-designed; usually, my study strategies work out well! I thought about it even further, and I'm almost always certain that I'm right - even when people disagree with me and provide what seems to be good reasoning to support their claims. However, I don't like arguments, so I almost always just agree with them to calm things down (even though, on the inside, I either don't understand where they're coming from or still disagree...). Basically, it seems that, in my eyes, I'm never wrong!

    It's also interesting that I have another friend who is this way. He might also be LII, but it's weird how we get on each other's nerves. For example, I told him that I've been studying various scientific theories, and how intuitive I find a lot of Einstein's thought experiments to be (e.g., about "space elevators", etc.). His response was that he finds biology to be really intuitive. I thought that what he said sounded crazy, because biology is about the least intuitive subject to me!

    Anyway, has anyone else noticed this basic phenomenon amongst LIIs?

    Jason
    LII

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    yes I have noticed
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    I've noticed as well, and spend a great deal of conscious effort trying to counteract it. It's hard, though.

    To quote some random Internet sage: "Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong. "
    Quaero Veritas.

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    hmm I see LII's easily admitting they're wrong. Depends on how much time they've put into their beliefs though.

    Also could be related to 6w5, 5w6, 1w9.

    For Alpha NT's I'd say this is because Ti is not dependent on objective criteria and will restructure its mindset to suit new information/ideas.

    So like, you may have been wrong, but you have already discarded the wrong idea and in hindsight you don't think it was a big deal.

    Sometimes I will subtley shift my position in an argument because I can tell I was off a bit. Then, I'll leave the argument "right" even though I started off wrong. This could frustrate people because they can't really remember where their original accusation went and wonder how I ended up being right.
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    I've noticed LIIs never admitting they're wrong. But I'm the same way.

    Not sure this is type-related.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    It's stupid to admit that you're wrong if you cannot see that you are wrong. If you are wrong and you can see that, and you still don't want to admit it, than you're stu(bborn)pid.

    I know some LIIs who never admit they're wrong because they cannot see how they're wrong. Although some of them often are wrong. I also think that some of them somewhere deep down feel they're wrong but just won't give up which leads to a conclusion that they're stubbornpid. Related to thinking subtype.

    It can be hard to step out of your own point of view. It can be hard to step out of your own Ti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Sometimes I will subtley shift my position in an argument because I can tell I was off a bit. Then, I'll leave the argument "right" even though I started off wrong. This could frustrate people because they can't really remember where their original accusation went and wonder how I ended up being right.
    I do this - sometimes when I'm very wrong, the "subtle shift" is a total descent into tautology. However, this sometimes makes people mad, so I go through a ritual of "admitting I'm wrong" when I see a danger that they'll notice and get mad (most common with Fi types, I think). When I'm discussing something with another Ti type and the topic we're discussing is just a minor point in something else, I'll often just go "oh, OK" and skip to the next point - my thoughts being a descent into tautology, followed by the realization that the tautology is irrelevant to what we're discussing.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I do this - sometimes when I'm very wrong, the "subtle shift" is a total descent into tautology. However, this sometimes makes people mad, so I go through a ritual of "admitting I'm wrong" when I see a danger that they'll notice and get mad (most common with Fi types, I think). When I'm discussing something with another Ti type and the topic we're discussing is just a minor point in something else, I'll often just go "oh, OK" and skip to the next point - my thoughts being a descent into tautology, followed by the realization that the tautology is irrelevant to what we're discussing.
    yes same. I make it very clear when I realize Im wrong too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I was having a conversation with my brother the other day. He was telling me that my biggest problem is that I never admit that I'm wrong. This was in reference to a specific issue. The problem was that I was certain that I was right about this particular issue. Then, I thought about it. Even in school, there have been times when I've done badly at particular tests. In these cases, I didn't think that my study strategy was "wrong", it was just that the elements of chance caused me to do poorly, or the test wasn't well-designed; usually, my study strategies work out well! I thought about it even further, and I'm almost always certain that I'm right - even when people disagree with me and provide what seems to be good reasoning to support their claims. However, I don't like arguments, so I almost always just agree with them to calm things down (even though, on the inside, I either don't understand where they're coming from or still disagree...). Basically, it seems that, in my eyes, I'm never wrong!

    It's also interesting that I have another friend who is this way. He might also be LII, but it's weird how we get on each other's nerves. For example, I told him that I've been studying various scientific theories, and how intuitive I find a lot of Einstein's thought experiments to be (e.g., about "space elevators", etc.). His response was that he finds biology to be really intuitive. I thought that what he said sounded crazy, because biology is about the least intuitive subject to me!

    Anyway, has anyone else noticed this basic phenomenon amongst LIIs?

    Jason
    I never admit I am wrong in an argument

    I only admit I am wrong, when I feel my actions have "wronged" someone

    But with words.... I never admit I am wrong, whats the point? To let the other person feel all righteous? What good does it do.... "oh btw, you were right".... people shouldn't have to identify who is right and who is wrong in a conversation.... its seems stupid imo. I mean I don't admit I am wrong, but alot of times people will convince me of something I missed or didn't notice.... but I don't think that makes me wrong.

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    "Oh really? That changes things! In that case..." <totally changes his mind>

    "But it was true all along!"



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    "Oh really? That changes things! In that case..." <totally changes his mind>

    "But it was true all along!"
    Exactly, I mean no one is "right" all the time, so its ridiculous to label people as "right" and "wrong" imo. Fundamentally I don't think people can be "right", I mean you can be "right" about something.... but not "right" about everything.

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    Anyways, LII's admit they're wrong sometimes. Take Wittgenstein and his alterations in his philosophy later in life or Kant and his wake from his dogmatic slumber. They also are corrective when this happens.

    There are people that find out they've made a mistake in some fashion and never admit it. They believe they're wrong yet lie about it. There are also those who admit they're wrong and is lying about that.

    As a whole I believe I can be wrong, any of my beliefs can be wrong, but it's impossible for me to believe that my beliefs are wrong if I believe they're not.

    I value novel, informative criticism, clear explanations of processes and corrective realization of then any conciliation. Someone that changes and corrects themselves at least knows the consequences of their assertions. I much prefer this then those that merely right their thinking for the appearance of piety and appeasement.

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Anyways, LII's admit they're wrong sometimes. Take Wittgenstein and his alterations in his philosophy later in life or Kant and his wake from his dogmatic slumber. They also are corrective when this happens.
    Two points here:

    1) I personally find that it's much more satisfying to later disprove one of my own beliefs than for someone else to have done the job.

    2) I believe Kant is an LII, but I wonder about Wittgenstein. I read a biography on Wittgenstein. He had a lot of interest in religion, and a lot of his personal beliefs delved into the mystical. I have considered ILI for Wittgenstein (but LII is still possible).

    Jason
    LII

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Anyways, LII's admit they're wrong sometimes. Take Wittgenstein and his alterations in his philosophy later in life or Kant and his wake from his dogmatic slumber. They also are corrective when this happens.

    There are people that find out they've made a mistake in some fashion and never admit it. They believe they're wrong yet lie about it. There are also those who admit they're wrong and is lying about that.

    As a whole I believe I can be wrong, any of my beliefs can be wrong, but it's impossible for me to believe that my beliefs are wrong if I believe they're not.

    I value novel, informative criticism, clear explanations of processes and corrective realization of then any conciliation. Someone that changes and corrects themselves at least knows the consequences of their assertions. I much prefer this then those that merely right their thinking for the appearance of piety and appeasement.
    My thing is sometimes a person isn't wrong, so much as misrepresented in their ideas and intentions. The essence of truth is there but it hasn't reached its full fruition*. Alot of times people will simply try to make people "accept the fact they are just wrong" because they don't see that potential there. The sad part about it is, if a person yeilds and just chooses to accept their "wrongness" they may abandon their pursuits of truth.

    I mean this doesn't even have to do with the obvious example of coming up with ideas and theories.... it may well have to do with moral "wrongness".... someone tries to get a person to admit they've done something wrong, when the truth is they just misunderstood and have good intentions.... and its sad to see a person crush those latent good intentions by making the person believe they are just a bad person by nature and admit their fault and accept punishment.

    *Did you know that according to one definition fruition means state of bearing fruit?
    Last edited by male; 09-28-2009 at 10:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I value novel, informative criticism, clear explanations of processes and corrective realization of then any conciliation. Someone that changes and corrects themselves at least knows the consequences of their assertions. I much prefer this then those that merely right their thinking for the appearance of piety and appeasement.
    Yes. This thread seems to be very much about not-Fi (ethical categorization and such), hence I agree completely (Not that Fi is all about appearances of piety, but it can seem that way).

    HaveLucid, that's definitely true sometimes. But other times people are wrong. I think it's a very fine linguistic distinction: one can label a person as wrong, as in "Barack Obama: wrong on healthcare," or one can label a belief as wrong, "Thomas' position is wrong; people aren't made of potatoes, rather they're made of cells and stuff." I think you can definitely "be wrong" in the sense of holding an incorrect belief. But that can be demonstrated and accepted without, as you said, labeling a person as wrong. But that's just my take on it.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Sometimes I will subtley shift my position in an argument because I can tell I was off a bit. Then, I'll leave the argument "right" even though I started off wrong. This could frustrate people because they can't really remember where their original accusation went and wonder how I ended up being right.
    I do this all the time (read: continuously) but instead of my mind saying "I was off a bit" it instantly perceives as if it knew the realization the whole time and says "of course that's what I meant". Once I understand something it's as if I just dug it up, but it just HAD to be there the whole time.

    But knowing this doesn't make the system any less gratifying. I will always think I'm the smarty pants and there's nothing you can do about it!

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    yeah, i was just explaining it in the way that an observer might see it.
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    Except when an LII admits to being wrong, it's not just an isolated incident. If I'm wrong about one thing, then there are probably several related things that depend on that one thing. It's like the laws of aerodynamics have changed, so now I have to rethink the way I build jets. A lot more is hanging on being right about that one thing than most people think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fear of sleep View Post
    Except when an LII admits to being wrong, it's not just an isolated incident. If I'm wrong about one thing, then there are probably several related things that depend on that one thing. It's like the laws of aerodynamics have changed, so now I have to rethink the way I build jets. A lot more is hanging on being right about that one thing than most people think.
    oh that's true too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    oh that's true too.
    That's generally when the LII is right, though - I know that not all of my beliefs are necessary to other things that I believe, and these outliers are more likely than the others to be poorly thought-out (which I would realize if I tried to base a few other beliefs on them).

    Looking back, the last thing that I admitted to being wrong on was the definition of a word. I couldn't really dismiss it as semantics or "to each his own" because I had started the argument by telling someone that they were misusing a word - so I felt that I had to stand by its common usage. This was of course a belief that I didn't have anything else depending on.



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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    HaveLucid, that's definitely true sometimes. But other times people are wrong. I think it's a very fine linguistic distinction: one can label a person as wrong, as in "Barack Obama: wrong on healthcare," or one can label a belief as wrong, "Thomas' position is wrong; people aren't made of potatoes, rather they're made of cells and stuff." I think you can definitely "be wrong" in the sense of holding an incorrect belief. But that can be demonstrated and accepted without, as you said, labeling a person as wrong. But that's just my take on it.
    Yea in a practical sense... I believe people can be wrong all the time. I mean I am "wrong" all the time when I attempt to do some homework or a test. In a practical sense.

    In a broad sense.... I believe people aren't really wrong, but they are just stuggling on the path to truth. Like on a homework or test.... what I write isn't just purely "wrong" and purely "non-sense".... what usually is the case is that I forgot to include some small detail that the entire correctness of the problem impenges on. The thing is, the idea was there but it just has its kinks that needed to be worked out. You can in practicality call that "wrong" but I see it as "undeveloped".... I dunno perhaps this a viewpoint that is heavily filtered through and a very neglectful of . I think thats very true though.... because from an perspective I could see the need to label things as wrong - the problem is because its PoLR for LII, most LII could care less because PoLR is something they are aware of, but simply regard as weak or undervalued.

    Also I like how that one person said.... because of , being wrong usually effects alot more things and alters their perception of logical principles.

    Also in terms of I tend to trust my inner understanding of something rather than be swayed by the convictions of an expert, because I always think "All these people have different understandings on this subject, and everyone can't be right -- if I depend on my own understanding at least my rationale is fully exposed, where as if I depend on this person, no rationale is exposed"

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