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Thread: Questions: supervision

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    Default Questions: supervision

    1) Your (unhealthy) supervisor undervalues you because...

    a) He doesn't give a shit about your strengths
    b) He would love to "be like you" but doesn't admit. He also drives his base function to your ass over and over because "you need to become like him", but he knows it's the other way round

    2) Once you have success, your (unhealthy) supervisor...

    a) Starts regretting because he should have valued you from the very beginning and finally acknowledges "you are an OK guy"
    b) Fears you and starts to undermine you
    Last edited by 1981slater; 09-23-2009 at 02:47 PM.
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    1) Your supervisor sees you as better than him in so many ways, but vastly inferior in the most important way. He may try to fix you, to make you superhuman, or treat you as a worthy tool who can't be expected to know what it's being used for.

    2) Once you have success, a healthy supervisor can acknowledge that the strengths you had were enough to have that success, even though you didn't have the "most important thing"... an unhealthy supervisor may see this as evidence that his base function is worthless, and either try to undermine that evidence or start to devalue himself.



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    But the supervisee is really 50% to blame as well, or he wouldn't have these insecurities that he projects on having the supervisor having. Until people take responsibility for themselves, they can't expect anybody else to, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    1) Your supervisor sees you as better than him in so many ways, but vastly inferior in the most important way. He may try to fix you, to make you superhuman, or treat you as a worthy tool who can't be expected to know what it's being used for.

    2) Once you have success, a healthy supervisor can acknowledge that the strengths you had were enough to have that success, even though you didn't have the "most important thing"... an unhealthy supervisor may see this as evidence that his base function is worthless, and either try to undermine that evidence or start to devalue himself.
    yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    yes.
    How would you describe ESEs then?

    Strengths? Critical weakness?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    How would you describe ESEs then?

    Strengths? Critical weakness?
    Okay, off the top of my head: strengths--they're people-oriented, friendly, outgoing, able to pull people in from off the side-lines and include them. They have a lot of energy and can get things done (albeit inefficiently). They're usually good cooks, enjoy having fun and watching others have fun. But for all of their strengths, none of the strengths seems particularly important. (to me) Just more superfluous.

    Critical weakness is that they're always challenging my Ni! Ni is not to be challenged! lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    But the supervisee is really 50% to blame as well, or he wouldn't have these insecurities that he projects on having the supervisor having. Until people take responsibility for themselves, they can't expect anybody else to, either.
    TOTALLY RIGHT. Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Critical weakness is that they're always challenging my Ni! Ni is not to be challenged! lol
    Could you give me an example of this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Could you give me an example of this?
    Sure. Real conversation:

    ESE: you should start a business with your photography
    IEI: No, because I already know what will happen.
    ESE: *confused*
    IEI: I'll grow tired of having to cater to the client's style rather than my own creativity and it will be frustrating and suck the joy right out of it. Then I'll have spent all that time and energy on a business that I don't even like anymore.
    ESE: but how do you know that will happen? Why are you always such a naysayer about everything I suggest? You don't appreciate me! I'm trying to support you!

    blah blah blah
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Could you give me an example of this?
    IEIs supervise ESEs basically by showing them that they try too hard

    same with ILIs and LSEs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    IEIs supervise ESEs basically by showing them that they try too hard

    same with ILIs and LSEs
    As an LIE, what are your personal experiences with SLIs?

    How would an ESE supervise an SLI?

    EDIT

    Hijacking the thread for Gultypan thoughtfeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    As an LIE, what are your personal experiences with SLIs?

    How would an ESE supervise an SLI?

    EDIT

    Hijacking the thread for Gultypan thoughtfeed.
    Umm, well I think my dad is SLI. It's hard to say because I've been around him my whole life and I can't differentiate between supervision and just being a parent. I don't know any other SLIs. Though I know there isn't anyone who can bring me down as easily as he can. Again, idk if it's because hes my dad or because he's my supervisor. I can't pin point exactly what it is.

    ESEs supervise SLIs by trying to get them going emotionally. Mostly trying to get them to enjoy themselves in strongly emotional environment when an SLI just wants to chill and relax without feeling like they have to entertain others.
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 09-23-2009 at 09:11 PM.
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    EDIT

    Updated quote

    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    ESEs supervise SLIs by trying to get them going emotionally. Mostly trying to get them to enjoy themselves in strongly emotional environment when an SLI just wants to chill and relax without feeling like they have to entertain others.
    Interesting. Can you think of how this would work out for what the Ti-spammers were saying?

    Like, how would an ESE begin to feel unvalued when dealing with an SLI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Interesting. Can you think of how this would occur as a passive process?
    ESEs will try to engage the SLI through loud displays of emotion, and the SLI who wants to keep an enjoyable atmosphere will feel like he must do the same, but he can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Updated quote

    Interesting. Can you think of how this would work out for what the Ti-spammers were saying?

    Like, how would an ESE begin to feel unvalued when dealing with an SLI?
    The ESE will see that the SLI is not responding well to his/her attempts to get the SLI involved or energized. The ESE could see this as the SLI not liking the ESE rather than what it really is, SLI's vulnerablity.

    The reason why we see our supervisee as stronger than us is because they display our role function quite naturally. Despite under valuing our Role, we still feel that we should be good at it.
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 09-23-2009 at 09:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    ESEs will try to engage the SLI through loud displays of emotion, and the SLI who wants to keep an enjoyable atmosphere will feel like he must do the same, but he can't.
    IEI supervising ESE: you waste too much energy.
    SLI being supervised by ESE: you have too much energy that I can't keep up with.

    Does that sound right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    IEI supervising ESE: you waste too much energy.
    SLI being supervised by ESE: you have too much energy that I can't keep up with.

    Does that sound right?
    Yeah, that sounds about right.

    to complete the circle, I'd say that SLI supervises LIE by tell them that they aren't taking the right steps to meet goals, and LIE supervises IEI by telling them that they don't work effectively enough.

    LIE > not good enough > IEI > too much > ESE > not enjoyable enough > SLI > not right > LIE

    eh.. now that right it like that I'm iffy about it.

    If I had to summarize all supervisons, I'd do it like this.

    TJs supervise FPs by telling them something isn't done right. ETJs > IFPs not done right... ITJs > EFPs not understood right
    FJs supervise TPs by telling them they aren't people oriented enough. EFJs > ITPs not fun enough... IFJs > ETPs not nice enough
    NPs supervise SJs by telling them they don't have to be a certain way. ENPs > ISJs too unoriginal... INPs > ESJs too extravagant
    SPs supervise NJs by telling them that they should be a certain way. ESPs > INJs not assertive enough... ISPs > ENJs not relaxed enough

    With ENJ and ISP it is the common understanding that ISPs tell ENJs that they need to relax. I think it's more that ISPs think ENJs should be more quality focused. Mostly as in quality of living, which doesn't necessarily mean relaxing, but enjoying life in all of it's detail.
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 09-23-2009 at 10:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    1) Your (unhealthy) supervisor undervalues you because...

    a) He doesn't give a shit about your strengths
    b) He would love to "be like you" but doesn't admit. He also drives his base function to your ass over and over because "you need to become like him", but he knows it's the other way round

    2) Once you have success, your (unhealthy) supervisor...

    a) Starts regretting because he should have valued you from the very beginning and finally acknowledges "you are an OK guy"
    b) Fears you and starts to undermine you
    I think half the people that land themselves into supervisory positions really aren't meant to be leaders of anything and have no natural talent at exercising leadership.

    I think (a) for the first since most supervisors I've run across just want you to perform a very specific way, they don't even care about "being like you", outside of work yes... thats likely but inside of work the supervisor just want you to perform a task like a component in a machine that they operate.... and this is why they fail at being good leaders... because competent leaders play to their member's strength and are aware that they aren't the best at everything and take in input from those with a strength in an area they don't have. They learn to identify who has what strength and then utilize those strengths. That of course is too sophisticated for your average supervisor who acts like an ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    I think half the people that land themselves into supervisory positions really aren't meant to be leaders of anything and have no natural talent at exercising leadership.

    I think (a) for the first since most supervisors I've run across just want you to perform a very specific way, they don't even care about "being like you", outside of work yes... thats likely but inside of work the supervisor just want you to perform a task like a component in a machine that they operate.... and this is why they fail at being good leaders... because competent leaders play to their member's strength and are aware that they aren't the best at everything and take in input from those with a strength in an area they don't have. They learn to identify who has what strength and then utilize those strengths. That of course is too sophisticated for your average supervisor who acts like an ass.
    ?? you do realize we're not talking about supervisory positions at all but the supervisory inter-type relation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    FJs supervise TPs by telling them they aren't people oriented enough. EFJs > ITPs not fun enough... IFJs > ETPs not nice enough
    NPs supervise SJs by telling them they don't have to be a certain way. ENPs > ISJs too unoriginal... INPs > ESJs too extravagant
    Interesting. I've definitely gotten into the ENP > ISJ pattern with my ESI mum before, at times.

    Is the operative thing that it's outright stating the "supervisory" statement?

    I could see a symmetrical intertype being skewed by one of the people having low self-worth or a particularly stringent super-ego, or any other non-socionics factor. That leads to one getting a feeling similar to a supervisee, even though there's no explicit admonishments over their PoLR. (I get this from my dad, for instance, and he's SLE.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Interesting. I've definitely gotten into the ENP > ISJ pattern with my ESI mum before, at times.

    Is the operative thing that it's outright stating the "supervisory" statement?

    I could see a symmetrical intertype being skewed by one of the people having low self-worth or a particularly stringent super-ego, or any other non-socionics factor. That leads to one getting a feeling similar to a supervisee, even though there's no explicit admonishments over their PoLR. (I get this from my dad, for instance, and he's SLE.)
    More often then not, it won't be that actual statement.

    Any type can see these weaknesses in themselves or others. The point of supervisor relations (and conflict relations for that matter) is that your supervisor is constantly focusing on that weakness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Any type can see these weaknesses in themselves or others. The point of supervisor relations (and conflict relations for that matter) is that your supervisor is constantly focusing on that weakness.
    Ok, next question. When the Supervisee lashes out, will it mimic their Supervisor's Supervisor?

    Like, an ESE sick of being criticized for extravagant energy expenditure by an IEI retaliates by attacking the IEI's knowledge (or something... whatever the sore spot for IEIs is).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Ok, next question. When the Supervisee lashes out, will it mimic their Supervisor's Supervisor?

    Like, an ESE sick of being criticized for extravagant energy expenditure by an IEI retaliates by attacking the IEI's knowledge (or something... whatever the sore spot for IEIs is).
    Nah, the supervisee will likely just make more psychological distance and/or become angry with the supervisor. The supervisee isn't strong enough in the suprvisor's weak functions to cause any psychological discomfort. Maybe in the supervisor's role, but it's not vulnerable enough to really do anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Nah, the supervisee will likely just make more psychological distance and/or become angry with the supervisor.
    I think anger would generally involve psychological distancing, regardless.

    I'm asking what the informational content of the lashback would be. Anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    I think anger would generally involve psychological distancing, regardless.
    true

    I'm asking what the informational content of the lashback would be. Anything?
    If any particular function, most likely in the area of the base function, which will just lead to more supervision. It probably wouldn't be any particular IE. I'd guess it would be something to the effect of, "whatever I don't care," or "I just can't do what you're asking of me!" or physically running away wouldn't be a bad idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    ?? you do realize we're not talking about supervisory positions at all but the supervisory inter-type relation.
    Lol nope obviously I didn't catch that

    However there may be some kind of weak connection here..... after all they wouldn't use the same word for two completely different ideas, that would be just stupid for the people who came up with the term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Lol nope obviously I didn't catch that

    However there may be some kind of weak connection here..... after all they wouldn't use the same word for two completely different ideas, that would be just stupid for the people who came up with the term.
    Welcome to Socionics. It was made by an ILE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    I think half the people that land themselves into supervisory positions really aren't meant to be leaders of anything and have no natural talent at exercising leadership.

    I think (a) for the first since most supervisors I've run across just want you to perform a very specific way, they don't even care about "being like you", outside of work yes... thats likely but inside of work the supervisor just want you to perform a task like a component in a machine that they operate.... and this is why they fail at being good leaders... because competent leaders play to their member's strength and are aware that they aren't the best at everything and take in input from those with a strength in an area they don't have. They learn to identify who has what strength and then utilize those strengths. That of course is too sophisticated for your average supervisor who acts like an ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Lol nope obviously I didn't catch that

    However there may be some kind of weak connection here..... after all they wouldn't use the same word for two completely different ideas, that would be just stupid for the people who came up with the term.
    Actually a lot of what you said does make sense for a supervisor relation. The thing is, in supervisory relations the supervisor roughly does the opposite of what you were saying we should do naturally, regardless of whether or not they're a good leader, etc.

    The idea is that we all think those with our creative function as their base take it too seriously and need to be corrected using our base, which is their PoLR. So, we all think that their strengths are not as important. We're all asshole supervisors to some poor supervisee.
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    Someone arguing against their PoLR will use anything at their disposal... most often their base function, but sometimes the creative function or anything at all - even a truly botched attempt at their PoLR. This is, of course, only until they realize that they can't win and resort to backing away.



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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Lol nope obviously I didn't catch that

    However there may be some kind of weak connection here..... after all they wouldn't use the same word for two completely different ideas, that would be just stupid for the people who came up with the term.
    New to the English language?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    New to the English language?
    I believe socionics wasn't created in english....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Actually a lot of what you said does make sense for a supervisor relation. The thing is, in supervisory relations the supervisor roughly does the opposite of what you were saying we should do naturally, regardless of whether or not they're a good leader, etc.

    The idea is that we all think those with our creative function as their base take it too seriously and need to be corrected using our base, which is their PoLR. So, we all think that their strengths are not as important. We're all asshole supervisors to some poor supervisee.
    So for an LII what is their supervisee that they are an asshole too and where are some links to this shite (too lazy to search me-self).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Ok, next question. When the Supervisee lashes out, will it mimic their Supervisor's Supervisor?

    Like, an ESE sick of being criticized for extravagant energy expenditure by an IEI retaliates by attacking the IEI's knowledge (or something... whatever the sore spot for IEIs is).
    yes. the supervisee uses their role function to attack their supervisor's polr. this is the reason the supervisee can look a little stupid in their retaltiation...their role function isn't really strong enough to totally slam their supervisor's polr. but it is enough to get the supervisor's attention and irritate them.

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