or ESI?
or another non ILE type?
discuss.
Is Banana Pancakes ILE?
or ESI?
or another non ILE type?
discuss.
Last edited by Banana Pancakes; 09-19-2009 at 05:15 PM.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
Removed at User Request
Removed at User Request
I still have a desire to mark Allie ILE... not because of any legitimate reason, but because the time when she thought she was ILE is my most fun memory of this forum.Originally Posted by Pinocchio
BP, no more ignore button! Ignore button evil!
Probably the strongest argument in this post.
[I haven't examined the rest of the evidence.]
It could be argued that the poll was because people might enjoy voting.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
How is putting someone on ignore Fi? Hkkmr has put me on ignore at least once (or so he said), and Epheremos, you have said only today that you were not going to read any of my posts concerning you for at least one week!
Removed at User Request
He doesn't say he ignored you for the reasons you mentioned. The first time, it's because he thinks you're crazy, the second time it's because he thinks you're a thread wrecker. In my case with hkkmr, he wanted to ignore me because he didn't like his notions being scrutinised (or wasn't able to put up a suitable defence).
It's interesting that after the second instance where he says he's putting you on ignore, you say that the real reason for him doing so is because he doesn't want to have to explain himself. I got a similar impression from hkkmr.
Removed at User Request
And please don't be so unnecessarily assertive.
Removed at User Request
Right. Thank you for your opinion.I don't intend to force anyone into this, but remember that I accused all who acknowledge the issue but accept his current typing of incompetence in case he's atype. This is not something which needs someone to necessarily bring evidence to figure out.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
I ignored you because you were trolling me specifically for what I believe were personal anti-pathy in a effort to discredit me.
As you are trolling Ephemeros now in a similar effort to discredit him.
I don't mind trolling or conflict, but your actions are annoying to me because often it is to create antipathy in others towards another.
Basta un giorno così, a cacciarmi via tutti gli sbattimenti che
ogni giorno sembran sempre di più
ogni giorno fan paura di più
ogni giorno però non adesso adesso adesso che c'è un giorno così
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I assure you I wasn't doing that - I simpled stated my reasoning for why the Reinin dichotomies as a whole are bunk. I didn't realise you were personally involved with the Reinin dichotomies, and you didn't have to ignore me to tell me that you didn't like me disagreeing with you.
BP, I have some ideas, but i'm uncertain whether to commit to the thread some of my thoughts.
I could maybe ask you this just now, (or rather, should say ... I will):
In reference to the following thread http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...eal-world.html
Which was about this quote:
Someone withas their leading function is very dependent on his/her feelings of interest and disinterest. Interest and boredom seem to be the driving forces in such a person's life — more so than for any other types. Other types also find things 'interesting' and 'boring,' however, they are able to derive satisfaction and enjoyment from things that aren't necessarily interesting and novel, as opposed to types. Just as
types can't make themselves do things that cause internal discomfort or are physically unpleasant,
Where you said:
Could you explain to my why you think that description of Ne is perfect and one of your favourites?
Oh: are you seriously wanting to examine your type or are you just "forum-pissed"?
Removed at User Request
I don't know about ILE, but I don't think he's ESI.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
O.K. I don't know you but now that I've started to interfere I'll probably have some difficulty stopping - I'm at work and really bored-
But anyway sometimes it's good to have a fresh perspective.
I've just gone back to your very first posts on this forum and read the first copuple of lines of perhaps the first 20 or so, just to get a feel for you general communciation style.
If typing is to be done scientifically it should be done correctly.
With an unbiased analysis of a random selection of information.
Initial observations are that there is an emphasis on Ne. You have a natural curiousity. Which you obviously relate to according to your own self typing and is certainly apparant in your early posts.
It's important to note here that the LIE comment was sarcastic. I am, however certain Bee is my dual, although tbh I felt a bit of irritation towards her at first. Her ability to relax me, especially one night when I was completely freaking out, and the ease of conversation with her has convinced me she is my dual. She is not someone I would pay attention to at first, reminiscent of duality.
I understand you don't trust typing by relationship, and I am suspicious of it as well, were it not for the very strong vibes I get from bee, pinkcanary, vero, steve, and to a lesser extent Jem, Mune, and Kam (simply because I haven't interacted with them as much) I wouldn't bring these relationships up, and I don't believe they prove my type on their own. I'm guessing you have all these as mistyped.
I put you on ignore because I had returned to a forum after a long break, and someone named Pinocchio (I was unaware you were formerly epheremos, and thought you were someone I'd NEVER talked to before) was suddenly calling me "gravely deluded" with no justification. I even reported you to the mods going "who the hell is this guy?". Later it was revealed you were epheremos.
Ah yes, my relationship with Fe. I have had a few negative experiences with 2 key Fe lead (never Fe creative) types. They created a very negative attitude towards me for some reason and used their ability to manipulate atmosphere to turn others against me. On the other hand there are a handful of Fe leads I get along perfectly with. I am convinced I couldn't handle the intensity of Fe lead in a relationship, however.
This morning I realized this probably has a lot more to do with language than I attributed last night, but nevertheless I'll continue with this.
Okay this part is important in typing me, so you and everyone else needs to pay attention.
1. I've viewed you as a troll until recently. I felt you did not understand socionics, and had somehow convinced yourself of some way to make the pieces "fit" so you could create an absolute system.
2. I dislike arguing. I hate conflict. I can't stand it. It makes me feel like an asshole, and every time I start arguing I immediately regret and want to take back everything I've said. (observe my multiple attempts to disengage and escape conflict-ridden interaction with you). I try EXTREMELY hard to stay in a relaxed state, with low blood pressure, at peace with everyone, because I view this as the optimal way to live.
3. My best practice, therefore, is to ignore any irritants I can. I will attack you if you repeatedly attack me, however, as has happened a couple of days ago (I still think I should have avoided it).
I'd really like to see you make this into FiSe. If that's not Si valuing, then I don't know jack about socionics.
1. In this example, I stated what I see as blatantly obvious: MBTI and Socionics measure different things. You responded demanded proof, a demand I see as simply trying to get me to exert myself explaining something that is obvious to 99% of those on this forum. I wasn't interested in that straw man.
2. I don't see you as "good" or "bad". I'm sure you're a decent person, you just irritate me. There's a difference. I'm not assigning Fi character values to you.
1. I do have friends here, but I doubt my relationships are as strong as many. Are ILEs not allowed to have friends? I'll note that I'm not rallying them against you, either, they've responded on their own accord.
2. Your peace offering "forget everything and be friends" doesn't strike me as Fi at all. Fi doesn't forget, Fe does.
3. You did have some interesting Fi arguments in there which I deleted my responses to because of your later comment about not being persuaded in an argument with me.
4. I trust the majority over your sole opinion because quite frankly I don't believe you understand socionics, or at least not me, correctly. I'd rather take in as many opinions as possible (this is Ne btw) to come to my OWN conclusion as to my type. It's highly unlikely you on your own will change my mind about anything, either. The buildup I put towards this thread and getting others involve also shows Fe HA I believe.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
FWIW I see no similarity between myself and Allie. I've stated more than a few times that she was "the worst ILE ever." I do get along with her better than I'd thought, however, as did vero.
It makes my experience more enjoyable to weed out the few who trash an otherwise useful forum. I have un-ignored pinocchio for the time being.
Note my comments in my response to pinocchio, I can say more as needed, and it's posible the ESE and EIE I refer to were typed wrong by me, although the EIE is an amateur socionist and has been typed by the forum a bit.
As mentioned above I wanted to get as many people involved as possible, because I don't trust epheremos' opinion alone.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
1. So that argument can be ignored, good.
2. I've clarified my reason above, you seem to think only Fi can be annoyed by someone, which is odd. The FiSes seem quite content to voice their annoyance when it occurs, while my route is much more passive aggressive.
CORRECT. At least someone can understand my words. I think I was defending myself quite well the second time, and had poked several holes in pinocchio's weak logic before my desire not to look like a jackass got the better of me. The arguments were just logical dick comparisons at that point.
Could you please just TRY to control your disdain for everyone who doesn't think and behave exactly like you within this thread?I don't intend to force anyone into this, but remember that I accused all who acknowledge the issue but accept his current typing of incompetence in case he's a
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
Please contribute, I'd like as many voices in here as possible.
A little of both. I think pinocchio's claim of ESI is nonsensical but I'm willing to flesh it out in hopes that he will stop bothering me. I can see myself as another NT type, however, and I do have doubts about my type. This is mainly frustration at my inability to find a suitable SEI dual, however, and desire to have an aggressive dual (SEE...) who will do all the work in a relationship so I don't have to (I'm a bit of a pussy when it comes to approaching women).
I'd love to. Rick's description here is beautiful and perfect, and was one of the influences (NOT the primary influence, maybe 3-4%) on my solidifying as NeTi. I'll quote the whole thing here and just delve into it.I could maybe ask you this just now, (or rather, should say ... I will
In reference to the following thread http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...eal-world.html
Could you explain to my why you think that description of Ne is perfect and one of your favourites?
I love this. The way I've spent my entire life consists of frantic search for something interesting, eager exploitation of it, loss of interest, and a new search for something of interest. At points this has made me a bit of a hedonist, watching movies all day and eating whatever I can find that tastes good. When I run out of things to do however, you'll find me bored and frustrated, especially when people tell me to "get a hobby" or "go read a book". If I knew of any interesting hobbies or had any interesting books I'd be doing that, thanks.Someone with Ne as their leading function is very dependent on his/her feelings of interest and disinterest. Interest and boredom seem to be the driving forces in such a person's life — more so than for any other types. Other types also find things 'interesting' and 'boring,' however, they are able to derive satisfaction and enjoyment from things that aren't necessarily interesting and novel, as opposed to
Granted Ne isn't the only type that can be bored, but it's prevalence is the key here, and it applies completely to me.
The only issue I have with this (I know it applies to IEEs too so it makes sense) is that I'm not a crazy "new people" person. This is due to a bit of nurture growing up (homeschooled 10 of 13 grades with limited socializing), and is something that is changing for me.What makes something interesting? A new situation, a new set of people, a new way of looking at old things, or novel or unusual information. There has to be some special quality in the information, situation, or people that creates an open-ended, high-potential situation that engages and energizes the mind.
One of my friends made this grade shirt that says "what's going on over there?" because she said that's all I ever say when I'm around her
I know, pinocchio, bringing up friends is Fi, right?
The last part is good, I HATE repetitive tasks, which introverts seem to enjoy so much. I definitely have experienced the irrational dread, and have worked hard to be able to force myself to get them done even with my rampant distaste for them.
Let's see, not sticking around to reap the benefits, I've done that a lot. With one of the jobs I've quit after a few months, for instance, one employer was shocked because he had all these big plans for me within the company.Always looking for novel information and high-potential situations is like skimming the cream off of everything; one rarely stays around long enough to reap the material rewards.+
Increasing or developing potential rather than materializing it. This is interesting, one example is when I'm with friends and will go "let's do something!" while they seem content to sit on the couch watching a movie and will tell me "we're already doing something". I suck at enjoying the present activity (Si needed) and want to go do something different.
I have quite a few areas I'm an "expert" in but haven't pursued any benefit from. I'm actually changing careers right now to tech support, something I've always done well on the side at previous jobs but for some reason ignored as a career path until recently.
Definitely had that switching to alternatives experience in jobs before. Material possessions are something I pride myself on having as few of and being as unconnected with as possible. Yes, I'll fight you if you criticize my ideas, even if I didn't plan to follow through with them. The tracking mental state and attacking disorganized thought processes is interesting, as I've been doing just that with epheremos recently.Dominant). If someone or something forces such a person out of a certain territory (a job, a room, a business, etc.), he or she quickly switches to thinking of alternatives ("that's fine, I was thinking of leaving anyway"). If one has items stolen, one quickly forgets about them and finds one didn't need them much anyway. It's hard to attach a
I do this quite a bit. When I first meet someone I try to sum up their views on life and where they're coming from. In the past I've been too silent of my opinions on such things until I know where they stand, specifically because I grew up in an environment with very radical views on things that others see (and to an extent I see) as a bit extreme. Not sure about helping people with hidden potential, I suppose I do a bit of prodding "you can do this" with things such as technology or business when teaching others.
What is characteristic of the thinking of Ne types is the ability to make connections between things that might not seem related at first glance. They like to keep a certain mental distance from their objects of study so that they can always keep the "big picture" in mind, i.e. see how the subject connects to other things they know about. This synthetic thinking presumably has a neurological explanation.
Second paragraph is a great classical intuitive description, and I identify with it completely.
Again the people thing is a challenge because of how I was raised. I definitely prefer unusual people to the "get married, get 9-5 job, have kids, get fat, die, repeat" crowd. I can't say I match people up nearly as much as my IEE brother does.
Ah yes, energy levels! This is one thing that convinced me I couldn't be a rational type. To call me a consistent, hardworking IJ is absurd if you understood my energy. I go from excessive, bouncing off the walls moments to complete exhaustion several times a day, with little idea how to regulate, maintain, or change my energy levels. My energy is a sine wave with sharp peaks and valleys.
Physical sensations is dead on. I forget to eat, forget I'm in pain, don't realize my leg has been hurting for 30 minutes because of the way I'm sitting. Love me some Si keeping track of hunger levels, and reminding me to sleep and not stay up until 2am arguing about socionics.
I haven't experienced Ne at a group level that much, except maybe when chatting with my Ne brother, where we bounce around topics endlessly.
Reading this description made me feel again very confident in my Ne ego. 95% is spot on for me. If you can somehow convince me Rick confused Ne with Fi, then by all means, I'm an Fi lead. I don't see how anyone could read this and agree if they were FiSe.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
I'm not throwing socionics out the window because I can't speak russian, pin. I think if I could read the original russian, I'd be that much more of an expert, simlar to say, a hebrew scholar's reading of the Torah vs an Alabama pastor's English translation.
Again, I did just what you're describing to increase my knowledge of socionics: pieced it together from every source I could get my hands on to form a summarized, instinctual grasp of the types, functions, etc. I'm not memorizing info, I'm forming Ti themes. I don't claim to know the most, but I think I know enough to know you're off base.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
No problem, I'm not familiar with you either but I'll take what you say into account
Thanks, you might also check out what I posted under my old name, diljs.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
Banana Pancakes, you've convinced me at least of your ILE-ness, especially your analysis of how Rick's description of Ne applies to yourself. At the very least I'm pretty sure you're Alpha NT.
I'd go so far to say that I'm more sure you're ILE than I am of Pinocchio, but that's mainly due to his wonky use of the English language making it harder to type him. Still, at the moment I'd say you're both ILE, just at opposite ends of the ILE behavioural spectrum.
Quaero Veritas.
Bullshit.
I didn't ignore you on the forums until you trolled me after this event. I only ignored you via chatbox.
As far as the reinin dichotomies. I was talking about:
These which I have no issue with talking about.
Static/Dynamic
Merry/Serious, Judicious/Decisive These are about quadra.
Process/Result These are about the direction of information within a psyche.
These which I talk about with some reservations.
Taciturn/Narrator These are about interaction style.
Positivist/Negativist These are about perceptual focus.
So if you bring up that whole. As a whole Reinin dichotomies is bunk assertion. I did give you my explanation of why I thought they are relevant. You simply chose to ignore my explanation because I think you needed some other form of information then what I gave you. I think that you simply don't understand and have no wish to explore anything then your existing knowledge. For that, I told you fuck off from discussions with me. You persisted to troll me in another thread and because of this I ignored you. You bringing up my name here again in a totally different thread to make a accusation against Ephemeros and of course to make a sideways accusation against me.
You're intellectually dishonest and this sort of passive aggressive trolling is just degenerate.
Now go the fuck away and don't mention me again.
As a whole the accusation that Ephemeros gives no explanation for his beliefs is total bullshit, because he tries very hard to give explanations but often perhaps inaccurate ones. Your accusations are simply because you're ignoring his explanation or don't think they're valid, but in no way is he not giving explanations. What you're accusing of him is a lie(that he doesn't want to give a explanation) and this is the sort of intellectual dishonesty that I abhor.
More passive aggressive intellectual dishonesty. My defense of the reinin dichotomies I've mentioned is easily understood by many others, it is only there are people who still cling on to Rick's article on Reinin, when even in that article he brings up some of those dichotomies which I think are easily investigated.
His assertion is however wrong, that some of the reinin dichotomies being hard to investigate invalidates all of them as a whole.
Last edited by mu4; 09-19-2009 at 06:48 PM.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
1. Down periods? I'd say I think about people...10% of the time on average. 5% normally, more if I'm having a problem with someone and can't analyze their behavior.
2. Okay, granted. My brother the IEE grew up in the same situations as me and turned out great with people, however. Logical tasks, not so much.
3. Didn't mean to sound absolutist, I'm open to it, I just don't see it, no one has made a claim that made sense to me yet.
Why don't I think I'm Fi? The function just seems so foreign to me. Let's look at wikisocion for a moment:
Ugh, I'm abysmal at this. I don't know if you're my best friend or my worst enemy. All I have to go on is whatyou tell me, and whether you trash me around other people or promote me.
I'm fairly distant from both my family and my friends. Few people know me well. If we're just meeting I may tell you something ridiculously personal, but afterwards I'll feel weird and possibly avoid you.
I try to be sensitive to feelings, specifically because of some instances where I've failed in the past. Telling someone my innermost feelings and sentiments? Yikes! Maybe after I've known you for 20 years, maybe.
I would say "that sucked". My brother would say "I didn't like that." One learned technique I've picked up from a book I read at some point is making myself the problem when saying something negative ("I find ephemeros comments arrogant" vs "epheremos is an arrogant jackass"). This is something I've picked up and try to be diplomatic with so people don't think I'm an asshole.
This is the only part I agree with. I don't give a shit about the group. I definitely focus on how I feel first. I have had criticisms about this in the past. Then again I think my behavior in the threads where I've highly edited my responses to epheremos and insisted they be in a separate thread are taking into account the group opinion and perception of me (I can be pretty image conscious at times).
My reality is based on the potential of things and whether I'm interested in them.
Crude example:
This chick is hot and nice, therefore she could be someone I could date.
NOT: I've known this chick for a while and our relationship has progressed to the point that we could begin dating.
Not at all
Hell no.
Maybe...I'm not too interested in the status of a relationship, but if we're talking romantically I can focus on this a bit.
Nope. My self worth is based on the amount of potential in my future, and my ability to create more.
As mentioned earlier it is extremely difficult for me to identify friend/enemy, good/ill, etc.
Okay so manipulating bonds between people to achieve Ne/Se goals. NO! I'm scared of hell of those bonds, I don't want to touch them. I see them as static, not flexible, and determined by the other person.
Similar to earlier, not really. I try to accept people, I rarely would say I like them, and it would always be permanent. My opinion of people doesn't change unless something extreme happens. Turning off the feelings sounds freaky, I would not want that in an SO.
On a side note:
If I were allie, all you'd be getting from me right now would be the following:
a;lskdfjaiofjeowipjaweriofdjl;kadfiodfjs
Something to think about.
Last edited by Banana Pancakes; 09-19-2009 at 07:57 PM.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
for anyone that missed it:
The saddest ESFj
...
I'll admit I'm much less interested in the theory of socionics compared to you, or epheremos, or hkkmr, etc. I do however pursue other intellectual topics often.
I think perhaps my current focus on people as an area to improve in life is causing me to focus more on ethical issues than an average ILE would. I feel my approach to this is still fairly logical:
"People with more positive relationships live longer, I need to make more friends."
"All these old/dying people focus on relationships, perhaps I should take their advice."
"If I could establish a romance with a dual I'd be a lot more balanced and not have to worry about irritating social issues as much"
etc.
For me, establishing a group of positive friends and a romantic partner (sx enneagram stacking...) is highly important to me, but it hasn't always been. Only in the last few years have I given a shit about how I treat my friends and had previously been highly uninterested in dating. Tbh I just got kind of lonely.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
That was from Fi base, though. I'd be looking at Fi creative.
That said, the points you made I could take as T>F. It just seems weird that you would be responding to Fi base and not Fi creative.
EDIT
And, ok, the intro. ILE BP works for me.
If you're interested, I'd be willing to respond to some things on cam, or do a stickam session.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
Oh, I was responding to the ESI there I guess, I'll add my notes on Fi creative to that post.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
Hah thats my thought process as well.
For clarification, I knew you were interested in intellectual matters other than socionics.
The end is nigh
lol I know you did...that was for the audience.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
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