View Poll Results: What type is Banana Pancakes?

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  • ILE

    6 66.67%
  • ESI

    1 11.11%
  • Other Alpha

    3 33.33%
  • Other Gamma

    2 22.22%
  • Other Beta

    2 22.22%
  • Other Delta

    4 44.44%
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Thread: Banana Pancakes is ESI

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    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Default Is Banana Pancakes ILE?

    or ESI?
    or another non ILE type?

    discuss.
    Last edited by Banana Pancakes; 09-19-2009 at 06:15 PM.
    ILE-Ti
    6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Here's a comparison of subjective importance of relationship for Fi types, comparing him with Allie.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post553375
    I still have a desire to mark Allie ILE... not because of any legitimate reason, but because the time when she thought she was ILE is my most fun memory of this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    I think this was the first time he put me on ignore, supposedly I had no right to say something about him because I did not meet him. I use this as an argument for Fi, but this at least shows he's not an ILE.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post548403
    BP, no more ignore button! Ignore button evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Here he admitted he hates Fe. I said few words about it.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post553412
    Probably the strongest argument in this post.

    [I haven't examined the rest of the evidence.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Another aspect: the deal was not to make a poll, because, if we reached this point, it means that he might be subtyped, therefore the opinion of the majority considered flawed.
    BP instinctively called the support of the people because of his Fi. For me, as an ILE, that is completely irrelevant and I stand for myself, and also, I would never in my life take people on my side to sustain my point.
    Indeed, for convincing people this is a good tool, but the point here is to demonstrate our evidence.
    It could be argued that the poll was because people might enjoy voting.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    How is putting someone on ignore Fi? Hkkmr has put me on ignore at least once (or so he said), and Epheremos, you have said only today that you were not going to read any of my posts concerning you for at least one week!

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Don't be such an idiot:
    - First: that is evidence, putting someone on ignore is not directly Fi, and this stupid idea is yours, not mine.
    - Second: the reason he put me on ignore. Check the reasons, you #@%$! And then check mine. I explain everything you want to know about it, I had logical reasons.

    After all of my related posts (including the one posted several minutes ago) I showed you the objective causes that made up my mind to cease answering you.

    Nevertheless, I am forced to answer you now because our lazy readers will probably ignore this "small" detail after reading your false affirmation.
    He doesn't say he ignored you for the reasons you mentioned. The first time, it's because he thinks you're crazy, the second time it's because he thinks you're a thread wrecker. In my case with hkkmr, he wanted to ignore me because he didn't like his notions being scrutinised (or wasn't able to put up a suitable defence).

    It's interesting that after the second instance where he says he's putting you on ignore, you say that the real reason for him doing so is because he doesn't want to have to explain himself. I got a similar impression from hkkmr.

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Don't be such an idiot [...] Check the reasons, you #@%$! [...]
    And please don't be so unnecessarily assertive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    I don't intend to force anyone into this, but remember that I accused all who acknowledge the issue but accept his current typing of incompetence in case he's a type. This is not something which needs someone to necessarily bring evidence to figure out.
    Right. Thank you for your opinion.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    It's interesting that after the second instance where he says he's putting you on ignore, you say that the real reason for him doing so is because he doesn't want to have to explain himself. I got a similar impression from hkkmr.
    I ignored you because you were trolling me specifically for what I believe were personal anti-pathy in a effort to discredit me.

    As you are trolling Ephemeros now in a similar effort to discredit him.

    I don't mind trolling or conflict, but your actions are annoying to me because often it is to create antipathy in others towards another.

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    Basta un giorno così, a cacciarmi via tutti gli sbattimenti che
    ogni giorno sembran sempre di più
    ogni giorno fan paura di più
    ogni giorno però non adesso adesso adesso che c'è un giorno così
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I ignored you because you were trolling me specifically for what I believe were personal anti-pathy in a effort to discredit me.
    I assure you I wasn't doing that - I simpled stated my reasoning for why the Reinin dichotomies as a whole are bunk. I didn't realise you were personally involved with the Reinin dichotomies, and you didn't have to ignore me to tell me that you didn't like me disagreeing with you.

  15. #15
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    BP, I have some ideas, but i'm uncertain whether to commit to the thread some of my thoughts.

    I could maybe ask you this just now, (or rather, should say ... I will ):

    In reference to the following thread http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...eal-world.html


    Which was about this quote:


    Quote Originally Posted by Rick in socionics.us of Ne
    Someone with as their leading function is very dependent on his/her feelings of interest and disinterest. Interest and boredom seem to be the driving forces in such a person's life — more so than for any other types. Other types also find things 'interesting' and 'boring,' however, they are able to derive satisfaction and enjoyment from things that aren't necessarily interesting and novel, as opposed to types. Just as types can't make themselves do things that cause internal discomfort or are physically unpleasant, types can't make themselves do things that do not engage them mentally (do not give them anything interesting to think about)."

    Where you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana Pancakes
    That description of Ne is perfect, one of my favorites.
    Could you explain to my why you think that description of Ne is perfect and one of your favourites?

    Oh: are you seriously wanting to examine your type or are you just "forum-pissed"?

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    I don't know about ILE, but I don't think he's ESI.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Hello...? somavision's Avatar
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    O.K. I don't know you but now that I've started to interfere I'll probably have some difficulty stopping - I'm at work and really bored-

    But anyway sometimes it's good to have a fresh perspective.
    I've just gone back to your very first posts on this forum and read the first copuple of lines of perhaps the first 20 or so, just to get a feel for you general communciation style.

    If typing is to be done scientifically it should be done correctly.
    With an unbiased analysis of a random selection of information.

    Initial observations are that there is an emphasis on Ne. You have a natural curiousity. Which you obviously relate to according to your own self typing and is certainly apparant in your early posts.

  19. #19
    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Here's a comparison of subjective importance of relationship for Fi types, comparing him with Allie.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post553375
    It's important to note here that the LIE comment was sarcastic. I am, however certain Bee is my dual, although tbh I felt a bit of irritation towards her at first. Her ability to relax me, especially one night when I was completely freaking out, and the ease of conversation with her has convinced me she is my dual. She is not someone I would pay attention to at first, reminiscent of duality.

    I understand you don't trust typing by relationship, and I am suspicious of it as well, were it not for the very strong vibes I get from bee, pinkcanary, vero, steve, and to a lesser extent Jem, Mune, and Kam (simply because I haven't interacted with them as much) I wouldn't bring these relationships up, and I don't believe they prove my type on their own. I'm guessing you have all these as mistyped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    I think this was the first time he put me on ignore, supposedly I had no right to say something about him because I did not meet him. I use this as an argument for Fi, but this at least shows he's not an ILE.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post548403
    I put you on ignore because I had returned to a forum after a long break, and someone named Pinocchio (I was unaware you were formerly epheremos, and thought you were someone I'd NEVER talked to before) was suddenly calling me "gravely deluded" with no justification. I even reported you to the mods going "who the hell is this guy?". Later it was revealed you were epheremos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Here he admitted he hates Fe. I said few words about it.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post553412
    Ah yes, my relationship with Fe. I have had a few negative experiences with 2 key Fe lead (never Fe creative) types. They created a very negative attitude towards me for some reason and used their ability to manipulate atmosphere to turn others against me. On the other hand there are a handful of Fe leads I get along perfectly with. I am convinced I couldn't handle the intensity of Fe lead in a relationship, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Along a lot of other posts we concluded our radical differences, so we both agree in the end that we are definitely different types.
    This morning I realized this probably has a lot more to do with language than I attributed last night, but nevertheless I'll continue with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Here I make some comments about his Se-Creative:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post562552
    Here he puts me on ignore again because I am rude, or whatever reason I can't understand he has. Fi vs Fi-PoLR again.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post562567
    Here BP got offended because he considers I categorized him, but actually I was not. I mean it is a list which can change at any moment if I can agree with those people:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post563387
    Okay this part is important in typing me, so you and everyone else needs to pay attention.
    1. I've viewed you as a troll until recently. I felt you did not understand socionics, and had somehow convinced yourself of some way to make the pieces "fit" so you could create an absolute system.
    2. I dislike arguing. I hate conflict. I can't stand it. It makes me feel like an asshole, and every time I start arguing I immediately regret and want to take back everything I've said. (observe my multiple attempts to disengage and escape conflict-ridden interaction with you). I try EXTREMELY hard to stay in a relaxed state, with low blood pressure, at peace with everyone, because I view this as the optimal way to live.
    3. My best practice, therefore, is to ignore any irritants I can. I will attack you if you repeatedly attack me, however, as has happened a couple of days ago (I still think I should have avoided it).

    I'd really like to see you make this into FiSe. If that's not Si valuing, then I don't know jack about socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    He's not too eager to review things which he considers known:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post562438
    Here, he refused to point out some how he understands some things about types for the fact that he took it an assignment from me. He's not trying to demonstrate something but is annoyed that he has to give me explanations, in the context as he sees me a "bad" person.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post562444
    1. In this example, I stated what I see as blatantly obvious: MBTI and Socionics measure different things. You responded demanded proof, a demand I see as simply trying to get me to exert myself explaining something that is obvious to 99% of those on this forum. I wasn't interested in that straw man.
    2. I don't see you as "good" or "bad". I'm sure you're a decent person, you just irritate me. There's a difference. I'm not assigning Fi character values to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Btw, he has a lot of supporters, BP has, at least compared to the majority, strong relationships with some forum users, supporting each other in sorrow and in joy.
    I speculate, without any confidence, that he accepted my peace offer for the fact that I used this as an argument for Fi. He didn't respond before.

    Here I've made my greatest point for Fi-Base, or at least Fi-valuing type:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post563368

    Another aspect: the deal was not to make a poll, because, if we reached this point, it means that he might be subtyped, therefore the opinion of the majority considered flawed.
    BP instinctively called the support of the people because of his Fi. For me, as an ILE, that is completely irrelevant and I stand for myself, and also, I would never in my life take people on my side to sustain my point.
    Indeed, for convincing people this is a good tool, but the point here is to demonstrate our evidence.
    1. I do have friends here, but I doubt my relationships are as strong as many. Are ILEs not allowed to have friends? I'll note that I'm not rallying them against you, either, they've responded on their own accord.
    2. Your peace offering "forget everything and be friends" doesn't strike me as Fi at all. Fi doesn't forget, Fe does.
    3. You did have some interesting Fi arguments in there which I deleted my responses to because of your later comment about not being persuaded in an argument with me.
    4. I trust the majority over your sole opinion because quite frankly I don't believe you understand socionics, or at least not me, correctly. I'd rather take in as many opinions as possible (this is Ne btw) to come to my OWN conclusion as to my type. It's highly unlikely you on your own will change my mind about anything, either. The buildup I put towards this thread and getting others involve also shows Fe HA I believe.
    ILE-Ti
    6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)

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    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I still have a desire to mark Allie ILE... not because of any legitimate reason, but because the time when she thought she was ILE is my most fun memory of this forum.
    FWIW I see no similarity between myself and Allie. I've stated more than a few times that she was "the worst ILE ever." I do get along with her better than I'd thought, however, as did vero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    BP, no more ignore button! Ignore button evil!
    It makes my experience more enjoyable to weed out the few who trash an otherwise useful forum. I have un-ignored pinocchio for the time being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Probably the strongest argument in this post.

    [I haven't examined the rest of the evidence.]
    Note my comments in my response to pinocchio, I can say more as needed, and it's posible the ESE and EIE I refer to were typed wrong by me, although the EIE is an amateur socionist and has been typed by the forum a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    It could be argued that the poll was because people might enjoy voting.
    As mentioned above I wanted to get as many people involved as possible, because I don't trust epheremos' opinion alone.
    ILE-Ti
    6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)

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    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Don't be such an idiot:
    - First: that is evidence, putting someone on ignore is not directly Fi, and this stupid idea is yours, not mine.
    - Second: the reason he put me on ignore. Check the reasons, you #@%$! And then check mine. I explain everything you want to know about it, I had logical reasons.
    1. So that argument can be ignored, good.
    2. I've clarified my reason above, you seem to think only Fi can be annoyed by someone, which is odd. The FiSes seem quite content to voice their annoyance when it occurs, while my route is much more passive aggressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    He doesn't say he ignored you for the reasons you mentioned. The first time, it's because he thinks you're crazy, the second time it's because he thinks you're a thread wrecker. In my case with hkkmr, he wanted to ignore me because he didn't like his notions being scrutinised (or wasn't able to put up a suitable defence).

    It's interesting that after the second instance where he says he's putting you on ignore, you say that the real reason for him doing so is because he doesn't want to have to explain himself. I got a similar impression from hkkmr.
    CORRECT. At least someone can understand my words. I think I was defending myself quite well the second time, and had poked several holes in pinocchio's weak logic before my desire not to look like a jackass got the better of me. The arguments were just logical dick comparisons at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    I don't intend to force anyone into this, but remember that I accused all who acknowledge the issue but accept his current typing of incompetence in case he's a type. This is not something which needs someone to necessarily bring evidence to figure out.
    Could you please just TRY to control your disdain for everyone who doesn't think and behave exactly like you within this thread?
    ILE-Ti
    6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)

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    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    BP, I have some ideas, but i'm uncertain whether to commit to the thread some of my thoughts.
    Please contribute, I'd like as many voices in here as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Oh: are you seriously wanting to examine your type or are you just "forum-pissed"?
    A little of both. I think pinocchio's claim of ESI is nonsensical but I'm willing to flesh it out in hopes that he will stop bothering me. I can see myself as another NT type, however, and I do have doubts about my type. This is mainly frustration at my inability to find a suitable SEI dual, however, and desire to have an aggressive dual (SEE...) who will do all the work in a relationship so I don't have to (I'm a bit of a pussy when it comes to approaching women).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I could maybe ask you this just now, (or rather, should say ... I will ):

    In reference to the following thread http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...eal-world.html

    Could you explain to my why you think that description of Ne is perfect and one of your favourites?
    I'd love to. Rick's description here is beautiful and perfect, and was one of the influences (NOT the primary influence, maybe 3-4%) on my solidifying as NeTi. I'll quote the whole thing here and just delve into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick on Ne
    Someone with Ne as their leading function is very dependent on his/her feelings of interest and disinterest. Interest and boredom seem to be the driving forces in such a person's life — more so than for any other types. Other types also find things 'interesting' and 'boring,' however, they are able to derive satisfaction and enjoyment from things that aren't necessarily interesting and novel, as opposed to types. Just as Si types can't make themselves do things that cause internal discomfort or are physically unpleasant, Ne types can't make themselves do things that do not engage them mentally (do not give them anything interesting to think about).
    I love this. The way I've spent my entire life consists of frantic search for something interesting, eager exploitation of it, loss of interest, and a new search for something of interest. At points this has made me a bit of a hedonist, watching movies all day and eating whatever I can find that tastes good. When I run out of things to do however, you'll find me bored and frustrated, especially when people tell me to "get a hobby" or "go read a book". If I knew of any interesting hobbies or had any interesting books I'd be doing that, thanks.

    Granted Ne isn't the only type that can be bored, but it's prevalence is the key here, and it applies completely to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick on Ne
    What makes something interesting? A new situation, a new set of people, a new way of looking at old things, or novel or unusual information. There has to be some special quality in the information, situation, or people that creates an open-ended, high-potential situation that engages and energizes the mind. types would rather choose an unknown situation that might have high potential than a known situation that is known to have low or medium potential. Many types have an irrational dread of boring situations and tasks, which usually end up not being as bad as they originally feared
    The only issue I have with this (I know it applies to IEEs too so it makes sense) is that I'm not a crazy "new people" person. This is due to a bit of nurture growing up (homeschooled 10 of 13 grades with limited socializing), and is something that is changing for me.

    One of my friends made this grade shirt that says "what's going on over there?" because she said that's all I ever say when I'm around her
    I know, pinocchio, bringing up friends is Fi, right?

    The last part is good, I HATE repetitive tasks, which introverts seem to enjoy so much. I definitely have experienced the irrational dread, and have worked hard to be able to force myself to get them done even with my rampant distaste for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick on Ne
    Always looking for novel information and high-potential situations is like skimming the cream off of everything; one rarely stays around long enough to reap the material rewards. types are more interested in increasing or developing potential than in materializing it. For example, one might become fluent in a foreign language but never seriously consider making it a career. Or one might become on expert on some field, but prefer to discuss it with friends and write about it as a hobbyist rather than entering the field and making it a career. This is especially typical of IEEs, who tend to avoid making binding professional decisions (sensitive + that wants to be free of external limitations). ILEs feel more comfortable being part of institutions and organizations that obligate them in some way, because they understand that these obligations are mere formalities that aren't too hard to perform. IEEs blow the importance of formalities out of proportion, as if having to get a few signatures or recommendations is simply "too restrictive" to allow them to work.
    Let's see, not sticking around to reap the benefits, I've done that a lot. With one of the jobs I've quit after a few months, for instance, one employer was shocked because he had all these big plans for me within the company.

    Increasing or developing potential rather than materializing it. This is interesting, one example is when I'm with friends and will go "let's do something!" while they seem content to sit on the couch watching a movie and will tell me "we're already doing something". I suck at enjoying the present activity (Si needed) and want to go do something different.

    I have quite a few areas I'm an "expert" in but haven't pursued any benefit from. I'm actually changing careers right now to tech support, something I've always done well on the side at previous jobs but for some reason ignored as a career path until recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick on Ne
    Dominant implies a philosophical attitude towards physical territory (). If someone or something forces such a person out of a certain territory (a job, a room, a business, etc.), he or she quickly switches to thinking of alternatives ("that's fine, I was thinking of leaving anyway"). If one has items stolen, one quickly forgets about them and finds one didn't need them much anyway. It's hard to attach a type to material possessions. But if someone attacks their "potential" (talents, opportunities, and any other "unrealized potential") or their intellectual territory (their ideas and vision), that's quite another story. Here types can and will put up a fight and will wear out nearly any opponent. Just as types are able to constantly keep track of opponents' level of will, energy, and power and attack them when they are weak, types are able to constantly keep track of opponents' mental state and thought organization and attack them mentally when their thought processes are disorganized (this applies to confrontational situations).
    Definitely had that switching to alternatives experience in jobs before. Material possessions are something I pride myself on having as few of and being as unconnected with as possible. Yes, I'll fight you if you criticize my ideas, even if I didn't plan to follow through with them. The tracking mental state and attacking disorganized thought processes is interesting, as I've been doing just that with epheremos recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick on Ne
    implies the ability to model other people's thought structures and understand how other people's worldviews fit together. This understanding allows one to explain new information or ideas to them in a way that they can understand, based on their existing level of understanding. types enjoy helping people with hidden potential develop it into conscious and recognized strengths. They like to help others experience insight — or a holistic intuitive understanding of concepts.

    What is characteristic of the thinking of Ne types is the ability to make connections between things that might not seem related at first glance. They like to keep a certain mental distance from their objects of study so that they can always keep the "big picture" in mind, i.e. see how the subject connects to other things they know about. This synthetic thinking presumably has a neurological explanation.
    I do this quite a bit. When I first meet someone I try to sum up their views on life and where they're coming from. In the past I've been too silent of my opinions on such things until I know where they stand, specifically because I grew up in an environment with very radical views on things that others see (and to an extent I see) as a bit extreme. Not sure about helping people with hidden potential, I suppose I do a bit of prodding "you can do this" with things such as technology or business when teaching others.

    Second paragraph is a great classical intuitive description, and I identify with it completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick on Ne
    types enjoy meeting people who have unusual life experience or novel thinking patterns and probing them for insights and inside information. They have a mental "catalog" of their friends' and acquaintances interests and easily match up people who share common interests and would enjoy learning from each other. They enjoy talking about and sharing their understanding of things and like to have their principles and understanding of things — along with those of their partners' — brought out in the open when doing business. This approach is most distasteful to ESIs and LSIs (with Ne as their vulnerable function), who try to avoid talking about their underlying motives, interests, and long-term goals while doing business.
    Again the people thing is a challenge because of how I was raised. I definitely prefer unusual people to the "get married, get 9-5 job, have kids, get fat, die, repeat" crowd. I can't say I match people up nearly as much as my IEE brother does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick on Ne
    types experience large fluctuations in their energy state, from great enthusiasm and dynamism to complete physical inertia. In the latter state they can spend the entire day inside, ignoring the things they are supposed to do, even if there are no groceries in the house and they are starving. They tend to routinely recognize physical sensations too late (hunger, illness, physical discomfort, pain, etc.) — unless there are types around who constantly keep track of these things. types might think they need to take a trip or begin a completely new activity or make a lifestyle change to overcome a persistent feeling of psychological discomfort, when in reality, getting a good meal and a good night's sleep would likely suffice.
    Ah yes, energy levels! This is one thing that convinced me I couldn't be a rational type. To call me a consistent, hardworking IJ is absurd if you understood my energy. I go from excessive, bouncing off the walls moments to complete exhaustion several times a day, with little idea how to regulate, maintain, or change my energy levels. My energy is a sine wave with sharp peaks and valleys.

    Physical sensations is dead on. I forget to eat, forget I'm in pain, don't realize my leg has been hurting for 30 minutes because of the way I'm sitting. Love me some Si keeping track of hunger levels, and reminding me to sleep and not stay up until 2am arguing about socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick on Ne
    Dominant at the group level is related to open-ended discussion of topics where the creative thinking powers of participants are most engaged. When is at the forefront, the group is in a state of "mental unison," experiencing and discussing their mental images of a subject and trying together to find the best angle to look at it. This state can also be induced by sharing "interesting facts" — information that is intriguing in and of itself and not is not necessarily immediately applicable to anything. In a state, the collective focus is on the content and potential of thoughts and ideas — not on the manner they are presented in, their correctness according to established systems, or the status and authority of who is expressing the idea.
    I haven't experienced Ne at a group level that much, except maybe when chatting with my Ne brother, where we bounce around topics endlessly.

    Reading this description made me feel again very confident in my Ne ego. 95% is spot on for me. If you can somehow convince me Rick confused Ne with Fi, then by all means, I'm an Fi lead. I don't see how anyone could read this and agree if they were FiSe.
    ILE-Ti
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  23. #23
    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    I found this few minutes ago:

    His main concern is the access to the official documentation. By comparison, mine is completely different: I could learn from everything, including MBTI and Keyrsey, I've understood the theory and mechanisms beneath and adding real-life experience (this is the most important for me, nothing can get over this test of fire) I conclude that Socionics is perfectly plausible and working - limited to the part of personality type applies.

    I don't value so much traditional documentation because of more than one reason:
    - it can have an area flavor, bias - Russian, Soviet, etc.
    - I could find many of the things there myself - and investigating on my own teaches me to find what is not written already.
    - without being influenced by a documentation I may have a larger perspective, to see things through an original view, I could discover things which they did not.

    I'm only curious about it to check if inside the Russian-speaking world I can find results that I already determined, to compare the conclusions (the most obscure ones) and points I may have missed. Sometimes I know I "miss" something, something to connect insights, and I can't find that in all the existing documentation. I want more and I begin to hate the fact I don't speak Russian as well. For example in the beginning when there were only the 8 IEs and I could not find any info of what they are composed of (now I know it's E/D/E).

    I'm definitely not interested in "learning" that documentation, I'm not depending on it, once I grab the line there's only one end: more clear. Documentation can only accelerate this process. Actually my mind doesn't work like learning, but extracts only key elements which builds a scheme, a system in my mind.
    Ah, it is also useful to use its existing naming conventions, I don't see the point in using different names as long as I could not communicate those .

    This comparison pulls me and BP apart again, if not in Alpha/Gamma, then at least in Judicious/Decisive separate camps. Adding this over Fi valuing (most likely) is Gamma, though.

    I think it would be welcome to hear your view on the subject in your own words, Banana Pancakes.
    I'm not throwing socionics out the window because I can't speak russian, pin. I think if I could read the original russian, I'd be that much more of an expert, simlar to say, a hebrew scholar's reading of the Torah vs an Alabama pastor's English translation.

    Again, I did just what you're describing to increase my knowledge of socionics: pieced it together from every source I could get my hands on to form a summarized, instinctual grasp of the types, functions, etc. I'm not memorizing info, I'm forming Ti themes. I don't claim to know the most, but I think I know enough to know you're off base.
    ILE-Ti
    6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)

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    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somavision View Post
    O.K. I don't know you but now that I've started to interfere I'll probably have some difficulty stopping - I'm at work and really bored-
    No problem, I'm not familiar with you either but I'll take what you say into account

    Quote Originally Posted by somavision View Post
    But anyway sometimes it's good to have a fresh perspective.
    I've just gone back to your very first posts on this forum and read the first copuple of lines of perhaps the first 20 or so, just to get a feel for you general communciation style.

    If typing is to be done scientifically it should be done correctly.
    With an unbiased analysis of a random selection of information.

    Initial observations are that there is an emphasis on Ne. You have a natural curiousity. Which you obviously relate to according to your own self typing and is certainly apparant in your early posts.
    Thanks, you might also check out what I posted under my old name, diljs.
    ILE-Ti
    6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)

  25. #25
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Banana Pancakes, you've convinced me at least of your ILE-ness, especially your analysis of how Rick's description of Ne applies to yourself. At the very least I'm pretty sure you're Alpha NT.

    I'd go so far to say that I'm more sure you're ILE than I am of Pinocchio, but that's mainly due to his wonky use of the English language making it harder to type him. Still, at the moment I'd say you're both ILE, just at opposite ends of the ILE behavioural spectrum.
    Quaero Veritas.

  26. #26
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    I assure you I wasn't doing that - I simpled stated my reasoning for why the Reinin dichotomies as a whole are bunk. I didn't realise you were personally involved with the Reinin dichotomies, and you didn't have to ignore me to tell me that you didn't like me disagreeing with you.
    Bullshit.

    I didn't ignore you on the forums until you trolled me after this event. I only ignored you via chatbox.

    As far as the reinin dichotomies. I was talking about:

    These which I have no issue with talking about.
    Static/Dynamic
    Merry/Serious, Judicious/Decisive These are about quadra.
    Process/Result These are about the direction of information within a psyche.

    These which I talk about with some reservations.
    Taciturn/Narrator These are about interaction style.
    Positivist/Negativist These are about perceptual focus.


    So if you bring up that whole. As a whole Reinin dichotomies is bunk assertion. I did give you my explanation of why I thought they are relevant. You simply chose to ignore my explanation because I think you needed some other form of information then what I gave you. I think that you simply don't understand and have no wish to explore anything then your existing knowledge. For that, I told you fuck off from discussions with me. You persisted to troll me in another thread and because of this I ignored you. You bringing up my name here again in a totally different thread to make a accusation against Ephemeros and of course to make a sideways accusation against me.

    You're intellectually dishonest and this sort of passive aggressive trolling is just degenerate.

    Now go the fuck away and don't mention me again.

    As a whole the accusation that Ephemeros gives no explanation for his beliefs is total bullshit, because he tries very hard to give explanations but often perhaps inaccurate ones. Your accusations are simply because you're ignoring his explanation or don't think they're valid, but in no way is he not giving explanations. What you're accusing of him is a lie(that he doesn't want to give a explanation) and this is the sort of intellectual dishonesty that I abhor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    In my case with hkkmr, he wanted to ignore me because he didn't like his notions being scrutinised (or wasn't able to put up a suitable defence).
    More passive aggressive intellectual dishonesty. My defense of the reinin dichotomies I've mentioned is easily understood by many others, it is only there are people who still cling on to Rick's article on Reinin, when even in that article he brings up some of those dichotomies which I think are easily investigated.

    His assertion is however wrong, that some of the reinin dichotomies being hard to investigate invalidates all of them as a whole.
    Last edited by mu4; 09-19-2009 at 07:48 PM.

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    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Banana Pancakes, you've convinced me at least of your ILE-ness, especially your analysis of how Rick's description of Ne applies to yourself. At the very least I'm pretty sure you're Alpha NT.

    I'd go so far to say that I'm more sure you're ILE than I am of Pinocchio, but that's mainly due to his wonky use of the English language making it harder to type him. Still, at the moment I'd say you're both ILE, just at opposite ends of the ILE behavioural spectrum.
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  28. #28
    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Look at it this way... roughly how often do you have "down" periods when you're not trying to deal with someone? Even if you're not actively dealing with the person, then thinking about them; even if you're not thinking about/dealing with/involved in/trying to start a romantic relationship, how about considering and thinking about people in general? I'm not sure that that's a necessarily a good litmus test, though.

    Also, being Ethical doesn't mean magically having social skills, especially not if you were brought up in the sort of environment you were brought up in. That's why they're called "skills".

    Anyway, that sort of absolutist thinking of "I absolutely can't see myself as Fi ego" would seem to betray that you're maybe focusing on one aspect of Fi, like, say, chain relationship failure. An exercise then is to think of all the reasons Fi ego is "ridiculous" to you.
    1. Down periods? I'd say I think about people...10% of the time on average. 5% normally, more if I'm having a problem with someone and can't analyze their behavior.

    2. Okay, granted. My brother the IEE grew up in the same situations as me and turned out great with people, however. Logical tasks, not so much.

    3. Didn't mean to sound absolutist, I'm open to it, I just don't see it, no one has made a claim that made sense to me yet.

    Why don't I think I'm Fi? The function just seems so foreign to me. Let's look at wikisocion for a moment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    Introverted ethics is generally associated with the ability to gain an implicit sense of the subjective 'distance' between two people, and make judgments based off of said thing.
    Ugh, I'm abysmal at this. I don't know if you're my best friend or my worst enemy. All I have to go on is whatyou tell me, and whether you trash me around other people or promote me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    Types with valued Fi strive to make and maintain close, personal relationships with their friends and family.
    I'm fairly distant from both my family and my friends. Few people know me well. If we're just meeting I may tell you something ridiculously personal, but afterwards I'll feel weird and possibly avoid you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    They value sensitivity to others' feelings, and occasionally will make their innermost feelings and sentiments known in order to test the possibility of creating closeness with others.
    I try to be sensitive to feelings, specifically because of some instances where I've failed in the past. Telling someone my innermost feelings and sentiments? Yikes! Maybe after I've known you for 20 years, maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    Also, these types convey emotions in terms of how they were affected by something (such as "I did not like that"), rather than an Fe approach that would describe the object itself without clear reference to the subject involved (such as "That sucked").
    I would say "that sucked". My brother would say "I didn't like that." One learned technique I've picked up from a book I read at some point is making myself the problem when saying something negative ("I find ephemeros comments arrogant" vs "epheremos is an arrogant jackass"). This is something I've picked up and try to be diplomatic with so people don't think I'm an asshole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    Much of their decisions are based on how they themselves (or others in relation to them personally) feel in contrast to considering how "the big picture" is affected (like groups of people).
    This is the only part I agree with. I don't give a shit about the group. I definitely focus on how I feel first. I have had criticisms about this in the past. Then again I think my behavior in the threads where I've highly edited my responses to epheremos and insisted they be in a separate thread are taking into account the group opinion and perception of me (I can be pretty image conscious at times).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    [edit] as a base (1st) function (EII and ESI)

    The individual sees reality primarity through static personal ethics and stable interpersonal bonds between individuals, including himself, where the status of such interpersonal bonds is determined by his personal ethics.
    My reality is based on the potential of things and whether I'm interested in them.

    Crude example:
    This chick is hot and nice, therefore she could be someone I could date.
    NOT: I've known this chick for a while and our relationship has progressed to the point that we could begin dating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    The individual is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities, and their consistency, of other people.
    Not at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    This makes the individual seem "judgemental" or "self-righteous" to people less so inclined.
    Hell no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    If he has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion but if that continues to elude him, he will regard the relationship as not worth it.
    Maybe...I'm not too interested in the status of a relationship, but if we're talking romantically I can focus on this a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    His own sense of constancy in personal ethics and in his relationships with others is a very strong factor in his sense of self-worth.
    Nope. My self worth is based on the amount of potential in my future, and my ability to create more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    in this position implies the ability to almost instantly recognize whether someone is a friend or an enemy, whether they are demonstrating good will or ill will, and whether they are drawn to or repelled by the individual.
    As mentioned earlier it is extremely difficult for me to identify friend/enemy, good/ill, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    as a creative (2nd) function (IEE and SEE)

    The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function.
    Okay so manipulating bonds between people to achieve Ne/Se goals. NO! I'm scared of hell of those bonds, I don't want to touch them. I see them as static, not flexible, and determined by the other person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion on Fi
    The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.
    Similar to earlier, not really. I try to accept people, I rarely would say I like them, and it would always be permanent. My opinion of people doesn't change unless something extreme happens. Turning off the feelings sounds freaky, I would not want that in an SO.

    On a side note:
    If I were allie, all you'd be getting from me right now would be the following:
    a;lskdfjaiofjeowipjaweriofdjl;kadfiodfjs

    Something to think about.
    Last edited by Banana Pancakes; 09-19-2009 at 08:57 PM.
    ILE-Ti
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  29. #29
    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    for anyone that missed it:
    Quote Originally Posted by fear of sleep View Post
    I can relate to BP a lot. I'd say he's about as much as an ethical type as I am. I have a lot of relationship issues too--that's the entire content of my forum blog so far. I don't write about theoretical concepts because they just aren't that interesting to me. I'm interested in people because people are important in my life. Socionics is great, but it is only an aid in understanding people. The end result is (hopefully) better relationships. What better way for a logical type to understand people better? imo it would be strange for someone to be interested in Socionics, while not being interested in their relationships.

    So yes, if you must doubt the fact that he is a logical type, then you have to doubt me as well.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

  30. #30
    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Yeah

    and Gul you have to apply the same thing to T types as well. They aren't going to be magically argumentative or "super-intellectually inclined". Not to say BP is a dumb layman because i dont believe he is.
    I'll admit I'm much less interested in the theory of socionics compared to you, or epheremos, or hkkmr, etc. I do however pursue other intellectual topics often.

    I think perhaps my current focus on people as an area to improve in life is causing me to focus more on ethical issues than an average ILE would. I feel my approach to this is still fairly logical:

    "People with more positive relationships live longer, I need to make more friends."
    "All these old/dying people focus on relationships, perhaps I should take their advice."
    "If I could establish a romance with a dual I'd be a lot more balanced and not have to worry about irritating social issues as much"
    etc.

    For me, establishing a group of positive friends and a romantic partner (sx enneagram stacking...) is highly important to me, but it hasn't always been. Only in the last few years have I given a shit about how I treat my friends and had previously been highly uninterested in dating. Tbh I just got kind of lonely.
    ILE-Ti
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  31. #31
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    That was from Fi base, though. I'd be looking at Fi creative.

    That said, the points you made I could take as T>F. It just seems weird that you would be responding to Fi base and not Fi creative.

    EDIT

    And, ok, the intro. ILE BP works for me.

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    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    If you're interested, I'd be willing to respond to some things on cam, or do a stickam session.
    ILE-Ti
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  33. #33
    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    That was from Fi base, though. I'd be looking at Fi creative.

    That said, the points you made I could take as T>F. It just seems weird that you would be responding to Fi base and not Fi creative.

    EDIT

    And, ok, the intro. ILE BP works for me.
    Oh, I was responding to the ESI there I guess, I'll add my notes on Fi creative to that post.
    ILE-Ti
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  34. #34
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana Pancakes View Post
    I'll admit I'm much less interested in the theory of socionics compared to you, or epheremos, or hkkmr, etc. I do however pursue other intellectual topics often.

    I think perhaps my current focus on people as an area to improve in life is causing me to focus more on ethical issues than an average ILE would. I feel my approach to this is still fairly logical:

    "People with more positive relationships live longer, I need to make more friends."
    "All these old/dying people focus on relationships, perhaps I should take their advice."
    "If I could establish a romance with a dual I'd be a lot more balanced and not have to worry about irritating social issues as much"
    etc.

    For me, establishing a group of positive friends and a romantic partner (sx enneagram stacking...) is highly important to me, but it hasn't always been. Only in the last few years have I given a shit about how I treat my friends and had previously been highly uninterested in dating. Tbh I just got kind of lonely.
    Hah thats my thought process as well.

    For clarification, I knew you were interested in intellectual matters other than socionics.
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  35. #35
    Pretend like it's the weekend Banana Pancakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Hah thats my thought process as well.

    For clarification, I knew you were interested in intellectual matters other than socionics.
    lol I know you did...that was for the audience.
    ILE-Ti
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