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Thread: Te or Ti?

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    Default Te or Ti?

    Not wanting to give out information that may make someone come to the "wrong" conclusion. E.g. "I'm a certain type and this is why" - *presents a bunch of information that fits perfectly with being that type*. As opposed to the approach of not wanting to unwittingly bias a person towards one opinion or another - presenting everything, related or no.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    I don't think you can dichotomize Te and Ti in that kind of way exactly. Er, I guess just that the situation you describe is too vague so that there could be a lot of reasons either Te or Ti valuers would want to make solid cases or want the other person to be able to do their own mental footwork.
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    types might have preconceived notions of what type they are and try to present their case in a way that guides everyone's conclusion to their own... or they might be aware of this tendency and purposely go against it, giving any and all information that may or may not be related, but I think they would still have that preconceived notion.

    or maybe that's everyone, and not just types. I'm not really sure
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    Completely unrelated to type. I value Ti strongly and I've used both approaches; I've even convinced people here that I was a different person and unloaded volumes of unadulterated personal information just to see what someone else might think.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
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    To de-vaguerise things.. I meant like someone who feels pretty sure about their type, but insecure about their logic. Maybe they feel unable to explain why exactly. They only present the information that looks to point directly to the type they've chosen, so there's no picking apart of their reasons and whatnot.

    Thanks for replies. (c:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    How did you reach the conclusion this depends on Logic and not other IE?
    Excellent question! lol I don't know - it seemed to make sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    To de-vaguerise things.. I meant like someone who feels pretty sure about their type, but insecure about their logic. Maybe they feel unable to explain why exactly. They only present the information that looks to point directly to the type they've chosen, so there's no picking apart of their reasons and whatnot.

    Thanks for replies. (c:
    As you describe it here... the unexplainable conclusion would be an Internal element. LIIs could do this, in which case I figure it would be justifying ... we may deliberately allow for the opposing case (as fear of sleep noted), though, if we aren't for some reason scared of getting a conclusion other than the one that we expect.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    As you describe it here... the unexplainable conclusion would be an Internal element. LIIs could do this, in which case I figure it would be justifying ... we may deliberately allow for the opposing case (as fear of sleep noted), though, if we aren't for some reason scared of getting a conclusion other than the one that we expect.
    But why would a leading logical type be scared of an opposing theory?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Not wanting to give out information that may make someone come to the "wrong" conclusion. E.g. "I'm a certain type and this is why" - *presents a bunch of information that fits perfectly with being that type*. As opposed to the approach of not wanting to unwittingly bias a person towards one opinion or another - presenting everything, related or no.
    I think it could be related to either... Intuitively, I would think that the first approach is more in line with Ti, and the second with Te - giving a chain of logic vs. presenting purely factual information, but this doesn't have to be the case. I also believe that there are a lot of misconceptions about what Te and Ti are. (Under some people's conceptions, I appear neither Te nor Ti valuing!)

    Jason
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Just observing types is enough to say .

    is strict, it's conclusion has as direct cause the hypothesis and direct correlations, they don't depend on arbitrary factors like "what's it worth?", "what next?", "will it be of use?", "could this harm my procedure?", etc, because it's Static.
    is also Extroverted and everything depends on a context, it can't detach from it, from specific (given) situations.

    Edit: @Rubicon: btw, nice observation! How did you reach the conclusion this depends on Logic and not other IE?
    Cool avatar. How would you type him?

    Jason
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Obviously (if you've seen the movie) Alpha NT . The same with Waltz.

    I find traits specific to both ILE and LII in the character, I can't decide between them.

    Edit: actually I recommend the character for the study of Ti combined with Ne.
    I'm still thinking about your reply to my other post, but as for the movie, I think this character was also Ti ego (On the right.):

    http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3317860608/tt0361748


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    But why would a leading logical type be scared of an opposing theory?
    I think T-HA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Obviously (if you've seen the movie) Alpha NT . The same with Waltz.

    I find traits specific to both ILE and LII in the character, I can't decide between them.

    Edit: actually I recommend the character for the study of Ti combined with Ne.
    I also found that character very interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Not wanting to give out information that may make someone come to the "wrong" conclusion. E.g. "I'm a certain type and this is why" - *presents a bunch of information that fits perfectly with being that type*.
    This is steering towards a goal, I'd say it was Se vs my below comment but I don't think this is accurate. Perhaps this is declaring while the second is asking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    As opposed to the approach of not wanting to unwittingly bias a person towards one opinion or another - presenting everything, related or no.
    This side seems more Ne to me, keeping the options open and letting the other party decide. Possibly Ne with Ti.

    I personally give people ALL the information, regardless of whether it will hurt my case (even when I know for certain it WILL, actually).
    ILE-Ti
    6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    But why would a leading logical type be scared of an opposing theory?
    Maybe we like to think we understand ourselves. Sometimes small errors in thinking can seem like cracks in a submarine. It's not a healthy behavior, let that be clear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Maybe not in theory, I mean we can't theoretically connect the logics with this dichotomy Rubicon talks about. But what about practice, typed people? Don't you find this separation in real people?

    I think we both agree that, taking the ideal case - Dual relationships, the Ti convince Fe types directly, but Te (on Fi) does it with a lot of what Ti's find "useless explanations" for the reason of not being misunderstood. Fe's are not even patient to listen all that and take it with skepticism as bullshit or evasion, because it doesn't come from direct ("obvious") causes.
    I agree with you, but my comment was more of an aside; I do think that Rubicon's notions can be related to Te and Ti, and it is not her views on this matter that I dispute.

    Jason
    Last edited by jason_m; 09-19-2009 at 09:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Yes! But I find him Beta Ti, specifically SLE. What was your thought?
    (I don't like his face, possibly because he looks like M. Schumacher, but this is irrelevant, the character is played greatly)
    I loved him, but I thought LSI. He seemed extremely rational and calculated in his approach. I usually find SLEs to be more unpredictable.

    Btw, what do you say about his play after Hicox showed the sign, up to few seconds after the barman served Scotch. Brilli-brilli-brilliant!! I don't think words can ever explain.
    I was smiling on the inside as soon as he went and sat down with them (), because I could tell right away that if there was anyone in that bar who could see through their charade, it was him.

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    Last edited by jason_m; 09-19-2009 at 09:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    @jason_m: to easily differentiate Landa between Alpha and Beta Ti, I find this reference the best:
    - assigning his actions to 3rd party causes like "my job dictates that...", not so much his merit. It simply "happened" he was the best for the job.
    - explaining his reasoning to reach the only, without doubt, conclusion: all the consequences result from impersonal causes in the whole situation, unlike their emphasizing their personal involvement (as Beta ST).
    - always giving choice, as long as his clear goal is reached, never trying to "crush" the resistance.
    - he always tries to justify his reasons to the opposition: "what would you do?" or "wouldn't you agree?"
    I have to think about this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Not wanting to give out information that may make someone come to the "wrong" conclusion. E.g. "I'm a certain type and this is why" - *presents a bunch of information that fits perfectly with being that type*. As opposed to the approach of not wanting to unwittingly bias a person towards one opinion or another - presenting everything, related or no.
    I'm almost tempted to see this as a or issue depending on context and the provider's agenda.

    If someone close to me was struggling with spirituality, I would try to frame my knowledge and experience in a way that was as comprehensive and unbiased as possible, regardless of my personal views.

    If I'm in a debate with some religious jackass, I'm going to be selective in what information I bring to the table. And, if such an exchange is public, I'm going to try to effect a certain mood that hurts my opponent's position.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    I'm almost tempted to see this as a or issue depending on context and the provider's agenda.

    If someone close to me was struggling with spirituality, I would try to frame my knowledge and experience in a way that was as comprehensive and unbiased as possible, regardless of my personal views.

    If I'm in a debate with some religious jackass, I'm going to be selective in what information I bring to the table. And, if such an exchange is public, I'm going to try to effect a certain mood that hurts my opponent's position.
    Fe\Fi - that's interesting.. What do you mean by effecting a certain mood?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana Pancakes View Post
    I personally give people ALL the information, regardless of whether it will hurt my case (even when I know for certain it WILL, actually).
    Yeah, I like the idea of that .. but can't say I always do that myself. :\
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Not wanting to give out information that may make someone come to the "wrong" conclusion.
    Typical Accepting Ti (INTj, ISTj) behavior, imo.

    Our set of typical behaviors could very well be summed up in a line that reads very much like the one quoted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Fe\Fi - that's interesting.. What do you mean by effecting a certain mood?
    One example could be inciting an 'us vs them' mentality in the audience. Another could be shaming the audience into disagreeing with my opponent.

    Tricky things to effect, but possible.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Typical Accepting Ti (INTj, ISTj) behavior, imo.
    Now that's interesting. What do you see the other as?
    ILE-Ti
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Typical Accepting Ti (INTj, ISTj) behavior, imo.
    Do you think Accepting Te has this characteristic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Typical Accepting Ti (INTj, ISTj) behavior, imo.

    Our set of typical behaviors could very well be summed up in a line that reads very much like the one quoted.
    Wouldn't it be more pronounced with strong Ti-HA? Presenting a theory with facts backing it up, but shielding it from criticism. I think Ti-egos are more likely to leave out facts subconsciously though ("details aren't important, so long as the wider logical structure is established"), and Ti-HAs will react worse when someone points out the inconsistencies (since Ti-egos find it easier to explain away any discrepancies, whereas it's less natural and more difficult for Ti-HAs).
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    It lately seems that you think everything is connected to HA.
    I wouldn't say everything... I just think HA is very telling, and intimately connected with the PoLR (and to a lesser extent, creative function). Typing someone by HA is essentially the same as typing by their PoLR, and for me, people's HAs (particularly Fe, Ti and Te) are often easier to spot. I'm aware that I probably use HA function to type more than most other people on this forum, but for me, when I'm typing someone, HA is often the thing that makes me certain that I'm correct.

    Remind me, where else have I talked about HA?
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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