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Thread: Tolkien and Middle Earth

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    Default Tolkien and Middle Earth

    This is a spin-off thread from the Alphas in Fiction thread, that was getting too bogged down in debating Middle Earth typing. This is a thread for discussing the types of J.R.R. Tolkien, and the types for the assorted characters of Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, The Lost Tales, and other works.

    To start us off (or return us to the point of origin): What type was Gandalf?
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    Well, I've always sort associated Gandalf with Brilliand. Gandalf is certainly a triangle and a square, leaving only four options: ILI, LII, LIE, and ILE. I'd personally lean more toward alpha and introvert, but I also think he has a better black circle than an LII would have.

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    Yeah, I've read all the arguments in the other thread, and I keep coming back to the conclusion that Gandalf is LII. A confident, mature LII, certainly, with a well-developed super-ego, but LII nonetheless. It's been a long time since I've read the books (I mean to do so again at some point), but in the movies Gandalf seems strongly LII to me. He seems to value Fe -- for example, his merry chuckle in the scene when he sets off the fireworks in the cart for the little hobbit children. He strongly seems to value Si -- relaxing and smoking Old Toby with Bilbo, his love of the Shire in general. And the way he became curious about the true nature of Bilbo's little magic ring and went off and researched it (no Internet back then, so he had to ride all the way to Gondor) struck a chord with me, as that's how my Ti manifests as well (become curious about true nature of thing --> do hours of research until thing is figured out). Gandalf can be a little more gruff and harsh than I am, but I would tend to chalk that up to a subtype difference.

    I think one of the major themes of the book (whether or not to use the Ring) is essentially Tolkien's way of portraying the conflict between Ti and Te, with Tolkien advocating Ti. Gandalf, as Tolkien's authorial voice, presents a logical case for not using the Ring, based on static concerns: it is evil and you are weak, and it will corrupt you in the end. Boromir presents the Te point of view: practical necessities require us to use this source of power; we can worry about philosophy later. As far as Gandalf is concerned, the shifting practical concerns of dynamic Te are not as important as the static, unchanging realities of Ti. As far as Boromir is concerned, the moldy old static, theoretical concerns of Ti are all but irrelevant; if the real-life practical Te challenges and dangers are not met, the free peoples of Middle-Earth will all be destroyed anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Bilbo Baggins (ISFp?) was ostracized in the shire for being adventurous. How is that consistent with the place being alpha?
    I agree, as ArchonAlarion said, the Shire is Delta Heaven, but it is Delta Heaven as portrayed by an Alpha.
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    I'd go with ILE-Ti over LII for Gandalf: he's a wanderer, no real affiliations, but with an obvious love for the quaint naivete of hobbits, who, as a race, are quite clearly Si/Ne and probably Delta. Some of the hobbits (archetypally Delta rational) say he is a "queer fellow" and dislike his seeming unpredictability and mysteriousness, but others (archetypally Delta irrational) enjoy his company and see him as an intruiging and fun visitor.

    I think Frodo is IEE and Sam is SLI. Bilbo is probably SEI. Merry and Pippin are probably an Alpha Extrovert pair. Boromir was probably SLE. Aragorn is a pretty clear EIE. Faramir is probably IEI. The elves are generally Beta/Gamma; I would say Galadriel is ESI, Elrond probably LSI.

    As for the Silmarillion, I think a few typings go almost without saying:

    Feanor: SLE
    Fingolfin: EIE (<3 favorite Tolkien character for sure)
    Finarfin: IEI
    Manwe: LSE
    Mandos: ILI
    Turin: SLE
    Niniel: IEI
    Thingol: ESI
    Ingwe: LSE


    Races

    Noldor: Beta
    Teleri: Alpha
    Vanyar: Delta

    Others I'm not entirely sure on:

    Finwe: ESE
    Fingon: SEE
    Maedhros: EIE
    Caranthir: IEI
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Actually, I was just thinking that ILE-Ti might be a good fit for Gandalf, when I was writing my first post in this thread. It would account for much of his harshness (1-dimensional Fi, 2-dimensional Fe, resulting in less compunction about expressing anger). I also like your analysis of the types of the hobbits and their relationships to Gandalf, it seems accurate to me.

    I really need to read the books again...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    the Shire is Delta Heaven
    Yeah, I would LOVE to live in a hobbit hole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Yeah, I would LOVE to live in a hobbit hole.
    Initial reaction: Noooo waayy. too cut off from the world
    Second thought: Ehhhhh maybe.

    If everyone else was delta, that might be nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Initial reaction: Noooo waayy. too cut off from the world
    Second thought: Ehhhhh maybe.

    If everyone else was delta, that might be nice.
    Thing is, it's a hobbit-hole in a city of hobbit-holes with plenty of hospitality. Not sure I'd call that "cut off from the world"...



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    Well the book seems to be all about power and ring seems to represent how power corrupts those who seek it. Frodo is suited for his journey because even though he carries that burden of power, he does not let it consume him. Throughout the book and the movie he constantly is struggling against the ring, but that struggle is purely internal. He his enneagram 9, that much is obvious, but what are his strengths? He doesn't really seem to have any, all he does is carry the ring. He doesn't really seem to have anything spectacular going on. How does he make it to mount doom? He hides, he runs, he knows when he's caught, he never tricks anyone, he's about as pure and innocent as they come, but he always has that weight dragging on him.

    Remember when he tries to sneak out of the camp to make the journey on his own? Sam comes running after him. Sam is always shoving food in his face too, trying to get him to eat. In the books, as they are at the foot of mount doom, Frodo collapses and can't go any further. Sam somehow forgets his own fatigue and carries him practically half way up the mountain. Sam's unwavering loyalty makes the journey possible, and he is always suspicious of Gollum/Smeagol. Sam always has a positive outlook too. He's always talking about the trip home, but Frodo knows that wont be possible. Frodo doesn't exactly have a positive outlook, but he internalizes all the negative thoughts and/or ignores them. Anyway, Ej is fairly apparent with Sam because he's the one managing the trip, going out and finding food, fighting off Smeagol, doing everything. But he always turns to Frodo for guidance. Frodo always has the final say. Frodo ultimately decides everyone's fate.

    I think typing Frodo and Sam is difficult because of biases in the Socionic profiles for LII (scholarly 5s) and ESE (helping 2s), but looking at the story a little more closely reveals it. If you want to get into E types too (something I've been doing more recently) then Sam is probably 6w7 and Frodo 9w1. No personality profiles can reconcile the LII 9w1. All 9w1s are automatically given ethical types. ESE 6w7 is less of a stretch, but it's not that apparent either. 6w7 does not come to mind when I read ESE profiles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I'd go with ILE-Ti over LII for Gandalf: he's a wanderer, no real affiliations, but with an obvious love for the quaint naivete of hobbits, who, as a race, are quite clearly Si/Ne and probably Delta. Some of the hobbits (archetypally Delta rational) say he is a "queer fellow" and dislike his seeming unpredictability and mysteriousness, but others (archetypally Delta irrational) enjoy his company and see him as an intruiging and fun visitor.

    I think Frodo is IEE and Sam is SLI. Bilbo is probably SEI. Merry and Pippin are probably an Alpha Extrovert pair. Boromir was probably SLE. Aragorn is a pretty clear EIE. Faramir is probably IEI. The elves are generally Beta/Gamma; I would say Galadriel is ESI, Elrond probably LSI.

    As for the Silmarillion, I think a few typings go almost without saying:

    Feanor: SLE
    Fingolfin: EIE (<3 favorite Tolkien character for sure)
    Finarfin: IEI
    Manwe: LSE
    Mandos: ILI
    Turin: SLE
    Niniel: IEI
    Thingol: ESI
    Ingwe: LSE


    Races

    Noldor: Beta
    Teleri: Alpha
    Vanyar: Delta

    Others I'm not entirely sure on:

    Finwe: ESE
    Fingon: SEE
    Maedhros: EIE
    Caranthir: IEI
    I like these.

    But what about Illuvatar and Melkor! Illuvatar is kinda untypable, although I'd lean to Ne/Si, preferably Alpha. Melkor I can see as rational maybe ENXj.
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    Melkor just wants to create chaos to fly in the face of everyone else and flaunt his superiority. Beta, some irrational subtype something. EIE is probably the closest approximation.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Gandalf=LII

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I think Frodo is IEE and Sam is SLI. Bilbo is probably SEI. Merry and Pippin are probably an Alpha Extrovert pair. Boromir was probably SLE. Aragorn is a pretty clear EIE. Faramir is probably IEI. The elves are generally Beta/Gamma; I would say Galadriel is ESI, Elrond probably LSI.
    I never would have considered IEE for Frodo. He's too subdued and too practical. IEE is out of the question. Sam is definitely a caregiver, but he doesn't strike me as an SLI. SEI and LSE are more likely. SEI for Bilbo sounds fine to me. Pippin is sillier than Merry; it may be an I/S difference or an E/L difference. SLE for Boromir sounds good to me. I never cared much for him (or for Frodo). I don't know Aragorn well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    lmfao @ Frodo as LSE.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    lmfao @ Frodo as LSE.
    lol, indeed. Sam strikes me as too upbeat, positive, and emotional to be LSE either.
    He was suspicious and didn't trust anyone, but that is not type related (unless you're talking about enneagram 6)
    but yes, if you, or anyone didn't read my earlier post:

    Sam = ESE
    Frodo = LII
    Last edited by electric sheep; 09-16-2009 at 03:28 AM.
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    I do think gandalf is INTj-Ti. The Silmarillion is an interesting book. The world starts from one, ends up being split into 16. You can correlate the 16 'gods' in the book with the 16 types quite accurately. Melkor I gathered was INFp. Manwe I thought was INTj. Melkor ends up being the archetype of satan. That was sort of interesting. Tolkein seems vaguely Delta to me in many ways. I have to question whether he used some fundamental logical system to create his 16 types which may correspond with the 16 types.
    in the movie frodo seems ISFj and sam seems ESFj / ESFx.
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    Sam as ESE? I mean, stereotypical caregiver, indeed. But Fe dominant? EJ temperament? Get real.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    FWIW I think Gandalf in the movie is depicted rather IJ-ish, perhaps even LSI (Ian McKellen is probably LII). But his character as a whole, as depicted by Tolkien, is very archetypally EP temperament.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    As for the 16 gods actually being well divided within 16 types, I think that's a bit ridiculous; it's too easy. Your Ti HA is showing, crazedrat
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Aragorn has to be some 3w4, maybe EIE-Ni.

    "I give hope to men; I keep none for myself."
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Sam as ESE? I mean, stereotypical caregiver, indeed. But Fe dominant? EJ temperament? Get real.
    It's certainly a better fit than SLI.
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    It most certainly is not. Do you know any ESEs?

    I suppose Sam could be ESI, but ESE is absolutely laughable.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It most certainly is not. Do you know any ESEs?

    I suppose Sam could be ESI, but ESE is absolutely laughable.
    Apparently you can't stop laughing long enough to give an explanation. Does loyalty and ESEs not go together? I've given my reasons, the least you can do is have the courtesy to give me yours.
    ESI is probably a better fit than SLI, but then he wouldn't be a caregiver, and Sam is the ultimate caregiver.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    As for the 16 gods actually being well divided within 16 types, I think that's a bit ridiculous; it's too easy. Your Ti HA is showing, crazedrat
    go read the book again. the correlation was obvious to me and surprised me when i read it. i thought surely tolken used some type of metaphysics to construct his 'gods'. that is my explanation for the perfect correlation. i acknowledge such clear correlations are rare, which is why i considered it worth mentioning at all.
    Aragorn seems INFj-Fi.
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    Aragorn is EII? You're fucking nuts. And I've read the Silmarillion more times than you've touched your pubescent prick, so don't feign condescension and abandon your hopelessly idealistic notion of everything fitting together seemlessly.

    As for Sam as not ESE, I'm sorry, it's just so obvious to me that I can hardly begin to put it into words. Do you know any ESEs? And what does loyalty have to do with it? Your projection of the objections you assume I must have is, to me, only blatant proof that you doubt your own assertions.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    you see animosity where there is none. so you make a habit of reading the silmarillion over and over again. i guess you win. now go away
    INTp

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    I never said anything about animosity, you were just being presumptuous.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    As for Sam as not ESE, I'm sorry, it's just so obvious to me that I can hardly begin to put it into words. Do you know any ESEs? And what does loyalty have to do with it? Your projection of the objections you assume I must have is, to me, only blatant proof that you doubt your own assertions.
    So you've acknowledged ESI as a possibility, does that mean you're retracting your own suggestion of SLI? Does that mean you've settled on ESI? The non caregiver? Is it because Sam doesn't greet Gollum with smiles and sunshine? I'm just trying to figure out why you don't think he is an ESE, so I'm asking you. Unlike you, who is blatantly trying to cover up a lack of rationale by projecting doubt on to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    go read the book again. the correlation was obvious to me and surprised me when i read it. i thought surely tolken used some type of metaphysics to construct his 'gods'. that is my explanation for the perfect correlation. i acknowledge such clear correlations are rare, which is why i considered it worth mentioning at all.
    Aragorn seems INFj-Fi.
    Would you mind expanding out the gods and their types more fully?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I never said anything about animosity, you were just being presumptuous.
    'i've read the silmarillion more times than you've touched your pubescent prick'.
    no, i was taking the liberty of interpreting your statement as aggressive. presumption typically has little to no empirical basis. instead, you're hiding behind semantics to cover your ass. i'm not interested in arguing whether you were being overtly aggressive, accidentally aggressive, or whether what you said qualifies as aggressive at all. infact nothing about this conversation is interesting to me. so please just shut the fuck up and go away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Would you mind expanding out the gods and their types more fully?
    yeah sure, i'll get around to it later. playing a video game right now. i'll make a thread about it later.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by fear of sleep View Post
    So you've acknowledged ESI as a possibility, does that mean you're retracting your own suggestion of SLI? Does that mean you've settled on ESI? The non caregiver? Is it because Sam doesn't greet Gollum with smiles and sunshine? I'm going to keep providing my own reasons because you refuse to produce your own.
    Obviously you are more concerned with proving me wrong than validating your own assertions, obtuse as they are. Go away.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  31. #31
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    'i've read the silmarillion more times than you've touched your pubescent prick'. no, i was taking the liberty of interpreting your statement as aggression. presumption typically has little to no empirical basis. instead, you're hiding behind semantics to cover your ass. i'm not interested in arguing whether you were being overtly aggressive, accidentally aggressive, or whether what you said qualifies as aggressive at all. infact nothing about this conversation is interesting to me. so please just shut the fuck up and go away.
    So I was projecting animosity, not seeing it, at least from your perspective. Even so, I didn't mean any harm; it was more "let's see what you've got" aggression than "go cry to your mommy" aggression. But apparently both make you want to crawl back up into the womb so this is probably a futile attempt at self-exoneration.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Obviously you are more concerned with proving me wrong than validating your own assertions, obtuse as they are. Go away.
    Well I guess you can laugh it off and declare victory, but it's a pretty bad cop out.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

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    so don't feign condescension
    this is you perceiving animosity
    i've read the silmarillion more times than you've touched your pubescent prick
    this is you being aggressive, presumably as a response to a perceived animosity
    INTp

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    Gilly knows what he's talking about. I'm not up his ass because he owns the forum and I'm not brown nosing but please. Before you make any comments, try to understand the theory better. Study up on the temperaments and the literature and what socionics is saying. You're just embarrassing yourselves.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fear of sleep View Post
    Well I guess you can laugh it off and declare victory, but it's a pretty bad cop out.
    Did you even read your own last post? At least I'm not feigning to understand any more of this than I really do by trying to call people out on not "backing up" their assertions. I can back up ANY socionics assertion; I could make an argument for Sam as EIE or ILI or any other type in the goddamn Socion SO easily. Typing people is not about what arguments you can jerk off onto a page; it's about actually reading people, being able to discern their role in a situation, and how those situations add up to create a bigger picture of the person or character.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  36. #36
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    so don't feign condescension
    this is you perceiving animosity
    i've read the silmarillion more times than you've touched your pubescent prick
    this is you being aggressive, presumably as a response to a perceived animosity
    I never presumed that your condescension was intentional; most people barely notice when they do such things because they are too controlled by their own impulses. Or you could just believe me when I say that I didn't perceive animosity.

    And yes, I threw in a little stinger because I thought you were being condescending and I wanted you to wake up.

    You're the one perceiving animosity where there is none; in all fairness, I can see why, but I guess you'll just have to trust me when I say that I harbor no ill will against you.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fear of sleep View Post
    Sam = ESE
    Frodo = LII
    Sam doesn't seem pushy enough to be an ESE. And he's no . I think he values / more. (Aren't they related to loyalty?)
    LII is possible for Frodo, but I don't think he has much of a .

    Why do people keep trying to make Frodo and Sam duals? Brilliand said he tries to type every successful marraige as a dual couple. But it's posible to get along well without being duals.

    ESTj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    It's because they are fictional characters and, as such, don't really HAVE "types," so the natural thing to do is to idealize them when they appear so perfectly compatible.

    I suppose an argument could be made for Frodo as Sam's Benefactor, but I don't think the dynamic is unbalanced enough for that.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  39. #39
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    I do think gandalf is INTj-Ti. The Silmarillion is an interesting book. The world starts from one, ends up being split into 16. You can correlate the 16 'gods' in the book with the 16 types quite accurately. Melkor I gathered was INFp. Manwe I thought was INTj. Melkor ends up being the archetype of satan. That was sort of interesting. Tolkein seems vaguely Delta to me in many ways. I have to question whether he used some fundamental logical system to create his 16 types which may correspond with the 16 types.
    in the movie frodo seems ISFj and sam seems ESFj / ESFx.
    Ooh I had passed over this.

    Yeah I think Satan/Lucifer was SLE/IEI and had considered Melkor as such. I think I'll type Melkor as ESTp, which makes sense if Manwe is LSE (zeus figure... wtf did I say Gilly??) and Varda is EII

    Sam is Si ISTp imo. Colloquial mother fucker who gardens. Basically my dad.

    Frodo in the books... yeah fuck, IEE. Agrizzle with teh Gilly.

    Gandalf as Ti ILE makes my dick feel bigger and i liek. Also, there is the whole me aspiring to be a Gandalf-like figure since I could crap in the toilet.



    Here's a summary of the 15 Valar from wikipedia for typing inspiration (Note, I have read the silmarillion and other non-Tolkein material on Arda so this is from what i remember about them)...

    List of the Valar
    These are the names and attributes of the chief Valar as they were known to the Eldar in Aman. In Middle-earth, they were known by other names of Sindarin origin; Varda, for example, was called Elbereth. Men knew them by many other names, and sometimes worshipped them as gods. With the exception of Oromë, the names listed below are not actual names but rather titles: the true names of the Valar are nowhere recorded. The males are called "Lords of the Valar"; the females "Queens of the Valar," or Valier.

    The Aratar (Quenya: Exalted) or High Ones of Arda are the eight greatest of the Valar: Manwë, Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna, Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë. Lórien and Mandos are brothers and are referred to collectively as the Fëanturi or "Masters of Spirits".


    Lords

    Manwë (LSE)
    He is the King of the Valar, husband of Varda Elentári and King of Arda. He lived atop Mount Taniquetil, the highest mountain of the world, in the halls of Ilmarin. The winds and airs were his servants, and he was lord of air, wind, and clouds in Arda. He was the noblest and greatest in authority, but not in power, of the Aratar and Ainur.

    Ulmo (Te/Fi?)
    Lord of Waters. Unlike the other Valar, he was not married and had no fixed dwelling place. He lived in the deep waters of the ocean, and seldom troubled to come to the Ring of Doom unless the need was dire. Ulmo was one of the chief architects of Arda. In power he was second to Manwë.

    Aulë (I'm kinda feeling ILE, but maybe SLI if ya wanna be stereotypical)
    Aulë is given lordship over the matter that composes Arda and is a master of all the crafts that shape it. He created the Dwarves, who call him Mahal, the Maker. During the Music of the Ainur, Aulë's themes concerned the physical things of which Arda is made; when Ilúvatar (God) gave being to the themes of the Ainur, his music became the lands of Middle-earth. Other of his works include Angainor (the chain of Melkor), the Two Lamps and the vessels of the Sun and Moon.

    Oromë (Gamma)
    Brother of Nessa and husband of Vána, also known as Araw in Sindarin, Aldaron ("Lord of the Trees"), Arum, Béma, Arāmē, The Huntsman of the Valar, and The Great Rider. During the Years of the Trees, after most of the Valar had withdrawn completely from Middle-earth and hidden themselves in Aman, Oromë still hunted in the forests of Middle-earth on occasion. Thus, he was responsible for first finding the Elves at Cuiviénen.
    Being a powerful huntsman, he was active in the struggles against Morgoth, and was renowned for his anger, being the most terrible of the Valar in his wrath. He has a great horn called Valaróma and a great steed called Nahar. In "The Book of Lost Tales", there is the sentence "There sang Amillo joyously to his playing, Amillo who is named Omar, whose voice is the best of all voices, who knoweth all songs in all speeches; but whiles if he sang not to his brothers harp then would he be trilling in the gardens of Oromë when after a time Nielíqui, little maiden, danced about its woods." It is mentioned in the Appendix on Names that Nielíqui is the daughter of Oromë and Vána.

    Mandos (possibly ILI)
    Judge of the Dead and the Master of Doom. Originally named Námo, but referred to more commonly as Mandos, after the Halls of his dwelling. Chief advisor to Manwë and keeper of the souls of elves. He is the husband of Vairë the Weaver. Mandos is described as being stern and dispassionate and never forgetting a thing.
    He was the Vala who cursed the Noldor leaving Aman, and counselled against allowing them to return. But unlike Morgoth, his Dooms are not cruel or vindictive by his own design. They are simply the will of Eru, and he will not speak them unless he is commanded to do so by Manwë. Only once has he been moved to pity, when Lúthien sang of the grief she and her lover Beren had experienced in Beleriand.

    Lórien (Ni ego?)
    Master of Visions and Dreams. Originally named Irmo, but referred to more commonly as Lórien, after his dwelling place. Lórien and Mandos are the Fëanturi, masters of spirits. Lórien, the younger, is the master of visions and dreams. His gardens in the land of the Valar, where he dwells with his spouse Estë, are the fairest place in the world and are filled with many spirits. All those who dwell in Valinor find rest and refreshment at the fountain of Irmo and Estë.

    Tulkas (SLI, SEE, ESI, LIE)
    The Strong, Champion of Valinor, also called Astaldo. He was the last of the Valar to descend into Arda, and helped to tip the scales against Melkor after the destruction of the Two Lamps. He is a wrestler and physically the strongest of all the Valar. He is the husband of Nessa, and is described as slow to anger, but slow also to forget; as such, he opposed the release of Melkor after his prison sentence.

    Queens

    Varda (EII)
    Queen of the Stars, spouse of Manwë, entitled Elentári in Quenya and Elbereth Gilthoniel in Sindarin. She kindled the first stars before the Ainur descended into the world, and later brightened them with the gold and silver dew from the Two Trees. Melkor feared and hated her the most, because she rejected him before Time.

    Yavanna (I really wanna say SEI, but possibly IEE)
    Queen of the Earth and Giver of Fruits, spouse of Aulë, also called Kementári. She created the Two Trees, and is responsible for the Olvar and Kelvar (plants and animals). It was she who requested the creation of the Ents, as she feared for the safety of the trees once her husband had created the Dwarves. The Two Lamps are created by Aulë at Yavanna's request, and their light germinates the seeds that she had planted. Following the destruction of the Two Lamps by Melkor and the withdrawal of the Valar to Aman, Yavanna sang into being the Two Trees of Valinor.

    Nienna (Beta or Gamma)
    Lady of Mercy. She was the tutor of Olórin, and weeps constantly. However, her tears are those of healing and pity, not of sadness, and often have potency; for example, she watered the Two Trees with her tears, and later washed the filth of Ungoliant away from them once they were destroyed. She was in favour of releasing Melkor after his sentence, not being able to see his evil nature. She has no spouse.

    Estë
    Referred to as the Gentle and "the healer of hurts and of weariness". Her name means Rest. "Grey is her raiment, and rest her gift." She is the wife of Irmo, and lives with him in his Gardens of Lórien in Valinor. She sleeps at day on the island in the Lake Lorellin.

    Vairë
    Entitled the Weaver. She is espoused to Namo, and lives with him at Mandos. She weaves the story of the World in her tapestries, which are draped all over the halls of Mandos.

    Vána (hmm maybe Alpha SF or Delta NF)
    Called Queen of Blossoming Flowers and the Ever-young. She is the younger sister of Yavanna and wife of Oromë. "All flowers spring as she passes and open if she glances upon them; and all birds sing at her coming." She dwells in gardens filled with golden flowers and often comes to the forests of Oromë. Tolkien wrote about Vána that she was "the most perfectly 'beautiful' in form and feature (also 'holy' but not august or sublime), representing the natural unmarred perfection of form in living things".[1]

    Nessa (SEE?)
    Entitled the Dancer. She is the wife of Tulkas and is noted for her agility and speed, able to outrun the deer who follow her in the wild, and for her love of dancing on the ever-green lawns of Valinor.

    Others

    Melkor (SLE)
    The Dark Lord. His name means "he who arises in might" and he was the first of the Ainur to be created by Eru. In origin he was the spiritual brother of Manwë, and the most powerful of the Valar, as he possessed all aspects of Eru's thought, whereas all the others possessed only some. He turned to evil, and was taken back to Valinor in chains after the Awakening of the Elves, where he remained on parole for several Ages. But after the poisoning of the Two Trees and the theft of the Silmarils, he fled from Valinor. He was no longer counted among the number of the Valar, and Fëanor called him "Morgoth Bauglir", The Great Enemy, by which name he was known in Middle-earth ever after. He was cast out of Arda at the end of the War of Wrath.
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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    AA, I hereby bestow your typing ability with my stamp of disapproval.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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