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    Default Catherine Zeta-Jones

    I think she's an ESE, not LSI like some people say. Seeing strong Si/Fe values and EJ temperament.








    Last edited by silke; 06-30-2014 at 08:57 AM. Reason: updated videos

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    I hate her.

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    She's super hot.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    She's super hot.
    Oh yeah. Well besides the actual values and temperament, she seems to strongly fit the stereotypical profile of ESE.

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    Having now watched the video, the first thing I have to say is OMG she's obnoxious. The second is that I wonder what you see in here that screams ESE?
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    The way she was doing the fake accents - a bit showy-offy and too sure of herself. Ugh. Like nails on a chalkboard. It isn't her fault. Creative Se does that to me. It looks like arrogance to me. It's just confidence and I remind myself of that around people like that IRL, and I remind myself that I probably seem wishy-washy and flakey to them. I used to think all people saw LSIs the way I see them - as arrogant and obnoxious - and I complained about one who had that same way to her, and had a group of people defend her to me. So I know it's just me and how I respond to her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    The way she was doing the fake accents - a bit showy-offy and too sure of herself. Ugh. Like nails on a chalkboard. It isn't her fault. Creative Se does that to me. It looks like arrogance to me. It's just confidence and I remind myself of that around people like that IRL, and I remind myself that I probably seem wishy-washy and flakey to them. I used to think all people saw LSIs the way I see them - as arrogant and obnoxious - and I complained about one who had that same way to her, and had a group of people defend her to me. So I know it's just me and how I respond to her.
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    EIE probably. She turns me on, but I find her kind of annoying personality-wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xkj220 View Post
    EIE probably.
    I agree, judging solely from that video, EIE seems most likely. She has some of the emotional mannerisms and voice modulations similar to ESE, but she is much more restrained and less "bubbly". Her story about her cooking disaster and her reported complete inability to cook make me think Super-Ego Si, plus the somewhat oblivious way she waved the golf club around makes me think Intuition of some kind.

    Plus, she reminds me of a FeNi woman I know in RL, but that's hardly conclusive evidence as none of you know her.
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    i still think lsi, with eie being another possibility.
    asd

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    She reminds me of Richard Dreyfus. Another LSI.
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    What makes you guys say LSI over EIE? I'm curious.
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    She reminds me of many ESEs I know, especially in the way she speaks about her life course and recent events. Most of the quotes I found seem very typical of an ESE who would be an actress, a very rich sense of Si and Ne valuing in a lot of them (Ne themes over Ni themes). I don't see any Se creative. Not sure where you're seeing that, but you are instead seeing Fe. That video for instance has Fe coming from her, and many hints of Si in her speech and mannerisms, and no real hints of Ni, which would be more obvious in rational betas. Fe would be more of an expressed talent for ESEs and less refined for LSIs. Take for instance Diane Lane or Lauren Bacall for some actresses who I think are LSI, who really have that approach to this lifestyle, and who are more fluent in their use of Ni and Ti. She also VIs like an ESE, which I think is important.

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    Here's a more in-depth interview with Charlie Rose (Jones' part starts at 30:30):
    Charlie Rose: December 20, 2000

    I can see where ESE is coming from, but I would still guess EIE. I can't really point to anything specific either way, it's just that her overall demeanour seems focused and dramatic than the ESEs I've typed. I'd say I'm around 60% confident of EIE -- a good solid guess, but not really certain.

    polikujm: is there anything specific that makes you say ESE over EIE?
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    she seems a little stiff for ESE. they're usually more emotional and bubbly and very free and relaxed. to me, i saw more Fi role coming through.

    i kind of like her though, tend to agree with LSI. i usually like them...even have a bunch as friends.

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    LSI in my opinion, probably a good female LSI benchmark. I feel like most people see LSIs stereotypically as these military men with handlebar mustaches and assume that the women must be some amalgam of Nazi/dominatrix/female wrestler, when in reality most of them tend to be (IME) charming, direct without being abrasive, refined, and somewhat unassuming (<3).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    LSI in my opinion, probably a good female LSI benchmark. I feel like most people see LSIs stereotypically as these military men with handlebar mustaches and assume that the women must be some amalgam of Nazi/dominatrix/female wrestler, when in reality most of them tend to be (IME) charming, direct without being abrasive, refined, and somewhat unassuming (<3).
    I've known quite a few LSI women in my life, and most people are indeed charmed by them. They're usually fairly slender and attractive too, IME, which helps. I know a couple who weren't traditionally beautiful, but still had a physically attractive quality about them. It's the way they carry themselves.
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    I find LSI chicks to be one of the most physically and sexually passive-aggressive types. I've been wanting to bone one since middle school, and haven't found a way yet.
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    The question above about creative Se. Creative Se looks to me like a strong desire to have self-control. In my dear ESI brother, that involves self-control in relationships. He stayed with my ex-SIL for WAY WAY too long, and was taken advantage of terribly. She was really awful to him. And I don't have much good to say about his current gf either, even though she's Delta. He's also stayed way, way too long in jobs where he was treated poorly. But he felt it was his responsibility to behave responsibly and "do the right thing" even if the other person wasn't. I know more LSIs than ESIs, but I don't know any as well as I know my brother, but they all seem to be concerned about self-control as well, and I've seen a trend of desire to control their own bodies. Like diet and exercise. Hence the reason they are often in good shape.

    Se is something that annoys me. Ti is something that makes me feel bad. So if I'm going to get annoyed, it's more often Se than Ti. And the creative Se bothers me more. Maybe it's an Ep/Ij temperament thing. I have a large number of SEE friends so obviously I can handle Se in those situations better.
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    You might be describing your benefactor's attempt for self-control. I don't see this same thing with Catherine like you are, but now that I think about it I can see your description fitting a general experience with my benefactor. It is not apparent, and I don't see Ni valuing and especially not Ti dominance with Se, like I do with those other LSI actresses. The sort of strenuousness of some Se egos, forcing their body to do things, I don't see any clues of that with her, so I don't know what that has to do with anything really. I see the opposite of that, a value for relaxation and comfort, and a reflective stage of feeling her body and the atmosphere. ESE is definitely a hunch, but its a much bigger hunch than EIE. I have much I could say about it that is hard for me to express, but I know ESEs and EIEs in real life and have a hard time seeing her as EIE. I could be wrong. I don't think I'm far off and certainly still want to investigate this typing and express these reasons of thinking she's an ESE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    The question above about creative Se. Creative Se looks to me like a strong desire to have self-control. In my dear ESI brother, that involves self-control in relationships. He stayed with my ex-SIL for WAY WAY too long, and was taken advantage of terribly. She was really awful to him. And I don't have much good to say about his current gf either, even though she's Delta. He's also stayed way, way too long in jobs where he was treated poorly. But he felt it was his responsibility to behave responsibly and "do the right thing" even if the other person wasn't. I know more LSIs than ESIs, but I don't know any as well as I know my brother, but they all seem to be concerned about self-control as well, and I've seen a trend of desire to control their own bodies. Like diet and exercise. Hence the reason they are often in good shape.

    Se is something that annoys me. Ti is something that makes me feel bad. So if I'm going to get annoyed, it's more often Se than Ti. And the creative Se bothers me more. Maybe it's an Ep/Ij temperament thing. I have a large number of SEE friends so obviously I can handle Se in those situations better.
    That's interesting and it makes sense.
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    she just seems sort of like an arrogant, stuck up bitch so i tend to think she is a beta rational.

    'oh, darling, i wouldn't dream of cooking.'

    :\
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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    You might be describing your benefactor's attempt for self-control. I don't see this same thing with Catherine like you are, but now that I think about it I can see your description fitting my experience with my benefactor. It is not apparent, and I don't see Ni valuing and especially not Ti dominance with Se, like I do with those other LSI actresses. The sort of strenuousness of some Se egos, trying to force their body to perfection, I don't see with her, so I don't know what that has to do with anything. ESE is definitely a hunch, but its a much bigger hunch than EIE. I have much I could say about it that is hard for me to express, but I know ESEs and EIEs in real life and have a hard time seeing her as EIE. I could be wrong. I don't think I'm far off and certainly still want to investigate this typing and express these reasons of thinking she's an ESE, valuing Ne over Ni, Si over Se.
    "She reminds me of ESEs I know" isn't a very strong way to type. And the "ESEs" you know could be LSIs.

    She's a dancer, and has very much tried to force her body into perfection. In the video, she had two young children and was in pretty damn good shape for having birthed and breastfed two kids recently.

    I don't see ESE in the slightest.
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    This is just silly. There is a stereotype that Fe egos love dancing. Just as much as Se egos are forceful, and how is she really so forceful? I can't take these ideas seriously. The ESEs I know in real life are not, not LSIs, nor are the LSIs I know ESEs. I should also mention she reminds me of SEIs I know too. I just need some time to think about what I have to say about her typing, but I know she values comfort and relaxing activities, in a reflective stage of feeling her body and the atmosphere which is indicative of Si, and of the quotes I have seen indicative of both Si Ne valuing. She is a really graceful mover. She has a wide array of emotions in my opinion, and does that typical ESE thing where she feels bad about something unimportant. She is very polite to people in an expressive way, not a reserved way what so ever. EIEs I know have an altogether different presence that I want to express too, but EIE is closer because she's an extroverted rational, I just think the values are wrong there. To say the least, her presence in some of these interviews is very Si, more than Fe. I can say it is a hunch, for the most part, which I need to think about how to express in concrete terms with you guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by heath View Post
    she just seems sort of like an arrogant, stuck up bitch so i tend to think she is a beta rational.

    'oh, darling, i wouldn't dream of cooking.'

    :\
    I definitely agree with the arrogant stuck up bitch attitude, but I'm not saying she really is a bitch, or a beta, or that only bitches can be beta. If anything, bitch attitude is seen from Fe egos, but I don't regard anything bad of it.
    Last edited by 717495; 09-11-2009 at 02:55 AM.

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    I'm going with LSI, she reminds me of a few LSI women my LSI dad was friends with from work.
    Not to mention that she generally plays a Beta ST in everything she's in, that I've seen at least
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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post


    I definitely agree with the arrogant stuck up bitch attitude, but I'm not saying she really is a bitch, or a beta, or that only bitches can be beta. If anything, bitch attitude is seen from Fe egos, but I don't regard anything bad of it.
    mm. yeah it's not that i think lsi/eie are arrogant and stuck up, it's that SHE is arrogant and stuck up, and in a way that i think reflects beta.
    asd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    LSI in my opinion, probably a good female LSI benchmark. I feel like most people see LSIs stereotypically as these military men with handlebar mustaches and assume that the women must be some amalgam of Nazi/dominatrix/female wrestler, when in reality most of them tend to be (IME) charming, direct without being abrasive, refined, and somewhat unassuming (<3).
    Yeah, I also think so. Sometimes they are a bit tactless, but that's part of the thinking-type package.
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    What is supposedly so beta about her? Can you give some examples, like comparisons to other beta celebrities, or just state anything from theory really.

    She seems way too unserious and soft to be a beta. How in the world are ISTjs like that, you tell me. Look at these pictures, at her eyes.




    She has a strong EJ presence. Her smiles are unforced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    she seems a little stiff for ESE. they're usually more emotional and bubbly and very free and relaxed.
    Some ESEs can be bubbly, just like some SEIs can be bubbly. But I know plenty of them who aren't, who have a darker humor. I don't really see "relaxed" as typically extroverted, even though she obviously values it, looking at these interviews. She's not "stiff." She is plenty emotional, even emotive. Not all ESEs are going to be crazy.
    Last edited by 717495; 09-11-2009 at 10:06 AM.

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    I've always thought she was ESTp. I suppose ISTp could be possible then, but not as likely.

    I get a similar feel from her as Madonna, Lady Gaga, and ESTp girls I know irl.
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    Yeah. You can hear the S in her voice, strongly. Beta ST works.

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    LSE with good role Fe is another option.

    The thing is that my first impression of her was IEE, but noticing that she seems to provoke a negative reaction in other IEEs made me doubt (maybe some sort of competition?). Also, the fact that it is a SLE who expresses appreciation adds to the mystery. Is that consistent with super-ego relations? To tell you the truth, I believe some sort of delta fits better.

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    Nobody is answering my question. Those of you who say Ms. Jones is LSI, what are your reasons for decided she's LSI > EIE? I'm open to the possibility, but no-one is really making the case.

    polikujm: I can see where you're coming from with the ESE thing -- I would say ESE is my secondary possibility, after EIE.
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    Well, she VIs LSI for one.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    What? no, she VIs as ESE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 07490 View Post
    Well, she VIs LSI for one.
    Yeah, except she VIs EIE for me. I think people rely way too much on VI around here. It's too subjective and personal to really be able to discuss who is right and who is wrong with any degree of accuracy. I'm more interested in analyses of her behaviour and speech, etc.

    VI is rather like going outside, looking at the sky, and saying "those clouds look like rain". If I go out and say "No, those clouds don't look like they'll bring rain," then how could we possibly determine who's right? Much better to be a meteorologist who studies weather patterns and radar maps -- then you have some evidence to argue about.
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    EIE VI looks more stern and judgmental in the eyes, and often times rather distanced, even if the rest of their expression isn't feeling that, in my opinion. ESE looks so soft and lost, like they want to open up and sing to you. LSI looks completely different, but its besides the point of arguing.

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    I'm starting to agree on the Ne-Si, but I don't see her Fe-Ti, she seems Fi-Te to me. Are you basing your conclusion that she is ESE solely on her temperament being EJ (which is debatable imo)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Nobody is answering my question. Those of you who say Ms. Jones is LSI, what are your reasons for decided she's LSI > EIE? I'm open to the possibility, but no-one is really making the case.


    She seems too direct for letterman .. especially the first part of this interview where it seems to me she's being more natural. "Well you teased me about it, so I must have been." "Have you been on the moon?" Also her mannerisms.. the way she says something, then looks directly at letterman to gauge his response - seems a Se way of reading emotion or w/e. The way she walks - you can tell she's very conscious of how to .. erm.. present her body to its best advantage. Her gestures look controlled and confident. Contrast that to the way Keira Knightley walks out .. looks a lot more relaxed and natural imo. And she doesn't look she's telling herself to smile like Catherine does. :-p

    Sorry.. obviously this is just based on my impressions and stuff. :/
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by xkj220 View Post
    I'm starting to agree on the Ne-Si, but I don't see her Fe-Ti, she seems Fi-Te to me. Are you basing your conclusion that she is ESE solely on her temperament being EJ (which is debatable imo)?
    No. I'm trying to include all the factors possible, especially all her quadra values. ESE is a hunch, her quotes and life philosophy fit those values, and EJ temperament is more obvious to me than it is to anyone else. She has to be Fe valuing, its engrained into so much of how she acts with what she tends to say. She can be almost smothering with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    YouTube - Catherine Zeta Jones David Letterman 2001 part 1

    She seems too direct for letterman .. especially the first part of this interview where it seems to me she's being more natural. "Well you teased me about it, so I must have been." "Have you been on the moon?" Also her mannerisms.. the way she says something, then looks directly at letterman to gauge his response - seems a Se way of reading emotion or w/e. The way she walks - you can tell she's very conscious of how to .. erm.. present her body to its best advantage. Her gestures look controlled and confident. Contrast that to the way Keira Knightley walks out .. looks a lot more relaxed and natural imo. And she doesn't look she's telling herself to smile like Catherine does. :-p
    YouTube - Keira Knightley at "Late Show with David Letterman"
    Sorry.. obviously this is all just based on my impressions and stuff. :/
    Generally what you're saying doesn't back up Se ego. Knightly is a logical, SLE, so anything ethics wise is going to seem more subconscious and in lack of trying to perfect, and I don't see how it fits with Se. Direct definitely fits Catherine more, but it fits all EJ types. I wouldn't typically use the word direct to describe IJs, even Se-IJs, as always their approach. It's much more on and off, happening in mainly serious circumstance. Controlled is definitely an IJ thing, but usually EPs are the only types that aren't going to seem controlled in an interview, just from my experience. Give me examples of Si-ESEs that aren't controlled in such a setting.
    Last edited by 717495; 09-12-2009 at 01:53 AM.

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    There's something odd about her. It wouldn't surprise me if she turned out to be a completely different person when not being interviewed, etc. She doesn't strike me as genuine. So I believe this might be the source of such disparity in her typings.

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