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    Why would everyone fit into one of the 16 types? The theory itself is fun and all, but why people's thought processes develop like that? And not just most people's but everyone's???

    Have you ever wondered if maybe it's all just bullshit? Maybe it just seems to work because we're able to make our perception and understanding of the people around us fit into our notions of types and intertype relations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Why would everyone fit into one of the 16 types? The theory itself is fun and all, but why people's thought processes develop like that? And not just most people's but everyone's???

    Have you ever wondered if maybe it's all just bullshit? Maybe it just seems to work because we're able to make our perception and understanding of the people around us fit into our notions of types and intertype relations.
    Everything is possible, anyway, you are an ESE chatbox

    Perhaps everybody has a certain % of every type, for instance, I see myself as

    70% ILE
    10% LIE
    10% IEE
    10 % others
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    Socionics: ENTp
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    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Erm... That doesn't really work with the theory. No Ti points for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Erm... That doesn't really work with the theory. No Ti points for you.
    I AM
    ILE "Searcher"
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    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    I'm talkative this morning because I woke up at 6:00 am and can't go back to sleep. I'm feeling well rested. Also sort of relieved because I didn't get a ticket last night even though I forgot to move my car from the street to the garage. I forgot the night before last as well, and didn't get a ticket then, either. Maybe because it's a holiday weekend?

    Anyways, I'm feeling well rested yet have nothing to do this early.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    I AM
    Oh shit. My bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Why would everyone fit into one of the 16 types? The theory itself is fun and all, but why people's thought processes develop like that? And not just most people's but everyone's???

    Have you ever wondered if maybe it's all just bullshit? Maybe it just seems to work because we're able to make our perception and understanding of the people around us fit into our notions of types and intertype relations.
    yeah which came first? socionics as a universal truth or have we only begun to think in those terms so we see the "truth" of it wherever we look?

    my youngest daughter is an entp for sure. for a while i thought she was enfp since she was pretty cute and could get people to like her, but the older she gets the more obvious it is that she is logical.

    we went to go see Jesus Christ Superstar last spring. we're sitting there watching. she leans against me and in a stage whisper says, "mom, when are they gonna hang him on the cross???" LOL holy shit. i mean she's only 7 but geez. how very entp.

    so all it takes is look at your kids. it's totally obvious what type they are, and from a very young age at that.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Or maybe she just likes to act like you? And you reward her for doing so?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Why would everyone fit into one of the 16 types? The theory itself is fun and all, but why people's thought processes develop like that? And not just most people's but everyone's???

    Have you ever wondered if maybe it's all just bullshit? Maybe it just seems to work because we're able to make our perception and understanding of the people around us fit into our notions of types and intertype relations.
    I find it hard to believe that everyone fits into one of the 16 types, but it isn't implausible that the people that don't are morons.

    Translation: Remember all that talk about Socionics being a highly efficient way for the brain to organize itself? Yeah... there's no guarantee that everyone has organized their brains in an efficient way. Even ignoring that, Socionics might be analogous to Aristotle's physics model that "fire and air go up, earth and water go down" - or wait, that's the Jungian archetypes. But we haven't quite reached "periodic table of the elements" level yet...



    LII-Ne

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Or maybe she just likes to act like you? And you reward her for doing so?

    yeah right? i dont' think so though. she's glued to the hip of her esfj sister and would like nothing more than to be like her!

    why would you say that i would reward her? do you reward your children for misbehavior?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    yeah right? i dont' think so though. she's glued to the hip of her esfj sister and would like nothing more than to be like her!

    why would you say that i would reward her? do you reward your children for misbehavior?
    How is acting ILE misbehaving?
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    do you always answer questions with questions?

    do you think one's childhood ego should be left totally unstrained and free?

    and most importantly, what about naomi?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    do you always answer questions with questions?
    Do I?

    do you think one's childhood ego should be left totally unstrained and free?
    Natural consequences for behavior should apply.

    and most importantly, what about naomi?
    I know! That's what I've been trying to ask!
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    Sometimes I think Socionics is bullshit.

    Other times I see it work out perfectly.

    I really don't know.
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    There's no reason for the world to be the way it is. The question is similar to asking "why do electrons exist?".
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    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

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    Slater, you always make me laugh.

    are you sure you're not SLE? j/k
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Slater, you always make me laugh.

    are you sure you're not SLE? j/k
    Red Baron, I always make you laugh.

    are you sure you're not SEI?
    ILE "Searcher"
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    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Red Baron, I always make you laugh.

    are you sure you're not SEI?
    Certain, yes!
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Everyone does not fit into all the 16 types. Everyone is Ne.

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    Socionics is a series of inadequate metaphors for reality, like (almost) everything else. Use the terms for what they're worth and drop them when they stop being useful. Like (almost) everything else, it has some truth to it, but not the whole truth. It explains much but not all. Ni is a decent, malleable metaphor for how I primarily think, and some of my fundamental assumptions. IEI is a decent, malleable metaphor for how I process information and some of my resultant behavioral trends. The phrases "process information" or "information metabolism" are decent metaphors for whatever it is that goes on between the individual and the not-the-individual, and the rubbings-up between the two that we call cognition.

    So I guess my point is that people don't fit into sixteen types, but if we sort them into sixteen types, we can produce some valuable models and predictions of their thought processes and resultant behavior, and perhaps can learn as much from where they don't fit our predictions as from where they do. But then, personality theory is only saved from complete monolithic creepiness from its inaccuracies, no?

    For that matter, MBTI is a series of inadequate metaphors. They just, from what I've seen, tend to be more inadequate than socionics, on the whole.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

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    This is generally what I thought about MBTI. I literally fixed it to how it was supposed to be in my head, and then I came across Socionics and was surprised by how much it fit this new notion of mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Why would everyone fit into one of the 16 types? The theory itself is fun and all, but why people's thought processes develop like that? And not just most people's but everyone's???

    Have you ever wondered if maybe it's all just bullshit? Maybe it just seems to work because we're able to make our perception and understanding of the people around us fit into our notions of types and intertype relations.
    If you know what to really look at and what socionics talks about and what it doesn't have jurisdiction over, it's very, very clear.

    It's actually kind of ....... un-wondrous, how simple people are.

    It's mostly about what is salient in a persons life, and then what type they are, and there you have it.

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    ^Are you LSE? It says so under your name, but you know how people's type changes around here...

    I'm pretty sure I disagree with you, but I don't know on what grounds. If it's not too much of a thread derailment, can you point me towards some links on the subject of what socionics does and doesn't have jurisdiction over?
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    It would be friggin hilarious at this point if Socionics was just complete bullshit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    It would be friggin hilarious at this point if Socionics was just complete bullshit.
    Socionics is half bullshit. I thought we had that settled...

    Throughout the ages, humans have had difficulty telling one half of a pizza from the other.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Why would everyone fit into one of the 16 types? The theory itself is fun and all, but why people's thought processes develop like that? And not just most people's but everyone's???

    Have you ever wondered if maybe it's all just bullshit? Maybe it just seems to work because we're able to make our perception and understanding of the people around us fit into our notions of types and intertype relations.
    Well I think 16 types (at least the 16 in MBTI or Kiersey) works so well because......

    You have 4 characteristics
    and 2 mutually exclusive options for each characteristic

    This creates 16 possibilities....

    The other answer to your why question is "because you touch yourself at night"....

    the end

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    I have no problem with the theory or with limiting just about everyone to a single type. I just choose to have a realistic view about it. When people over-analyze it, then yeah, things get messy. I say over-analyze because ususally, imo, people start taking the big picture out of context versus actually getting to the truth of the matter.
    ::nod of agreement::

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    It would be friggin hilarious at this point if Socionics was just complete bullshit.
    It probably is. It's just the prettiest pile of bullshit when compared with a field of piles.
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    Is it really so crazy to think that we're all just using projection and self-fulfilling prophecy when we're applying this theory to the people around us?
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    Not really... it's just starting to seem more likely to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    ^Are you LSE? It says so under your name, but you know how people's type changes around here...

    I'm pretty sure I disagree with you, but I don't know on what grounds. If it's not too much of a thread derailment, can you point me towards some links on the subject of what socionics does and doesn't have jurisdiction over?
    I don't know if there are links, per se. I'll tell you about it myself, if you want. I don't think it is a very well articulated issue of socionics, and in fact it is one of the most important parts of socionics.

    When people ask if a relationship, a romantic relationship works and try to analyze it only in terms of socionics compatibility, then they are missing things out. There are obviously other factors: social, socio-economic, lifestyle, life direction, religion, etc. That's a really simplistic example, of course.

    What grounds are you talking about?


    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    It would be friggin hilarious at this point if Socionics was just complete bullshit.
    Is this at all related to you being bored with your type?

    Is it really so crazy to think that we're all just using projection and self-fulfilling prophecy when we're applying this theory to the people around us?
    People do that, actually. (...)

    So I guess my point is that people don't fit into sixteen types, but if we sort them into sixteen types, we can produce some valuable models and predictions of their thought processes and resultant behavior, and perhaps can learn as much from where they don't fit our predictions as from where they do. But then, personality theory is only saved from complete monolithic creepiness from its inaccuracies, no?
    I wonder what you mean.
    I don't particularly disagree with you, but, I think some of it is dependent of what you mean when you say "don't fit into types". I mean, in my way of seeing things, perhaps, you are expecting types to be something they are not. It seems that it is fairly commonplace to not understand what a "type" really is.

    types are like a mathematical function. They aren't actual data. They are just a way to interpret things. So I think the concept that there is a set "type", that an IEI is something that can be explained in a profile that's a few pages long, in every specific detail.... that's foolish and not particularly possible. That's not what socionics is about, to me. Types are human beings, first and foremost. I don't really see a reason to be fed up with socionics and think it doesn't describe humans, just like I don't see a reason to have some backlash against the concept of duality, and declaring that "duality isn't all its cracked up to be". What is really going on is you are breaking through your own delusions and assumptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Why would everyone fit into one of the 16 types? The theory itself is fun and all, but why people's thought processes develop like that? And not just most people's but everyone's???

    Have you ever wondered if maybe it's all just bullshit? Maybe it just seems to work because we're able to make our perception and understanding of the people around us fit into our notions of types and intertype relations.
    It fits because we make it fit. Unfortunately, people either forget this or are not even aware of it in the first place.
    Ceci n'est pas une eii.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Why would everyone fit into one of the 16 types? The theory itself is fun and all, but why people's thought processes develop like that? And not just most people's but everyone's???
    I don't see the types as boxes but rather as reference models. Each individual is unique but, when analyzed, it might look more or less as one of the reference models. In some cases the resemblance is astonishing in other is only vague. Based on the resemblance to the reference model a person might deduce some probability of a certain behavior or of a certain attitude in certain conditions. Probability! That's all!
    Even if it is so uncertain, when you apply it to a long enough period of time or to a large number of people, this probability points to a certain level of accuracy. The accuracy depends on how well the sample population resemble to their particular reference models. More resemblance equals higher accuracy.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Is it really so crazy to think that we're all just using projection and self-fulfilling prophecy when we're applying this theory to the people around us?
    I don't think everyone uses projection and self-fulfilling prophecy, but some do, and its almost always a nasty little danger that you have to put up with.....

    There is an easy way to avoid self-fulfilling prophecy though....

    Most self-fulfilling prophecy can only come when a person is deterministic about another's (or their own) type... once they've determined the type they factor in supporting evidence to strengthen their stance and "gloss" over contradictory evidence.

    If instead people consider their (or anothers) type with a skeptical or scientific outlook its much easier... you collect the data, even data that is unsupportative of your hypothesis, and then you begin to create a model from what you have.

    Now as to how that applies with Socionics, I believe a major part is Jungian Functions, and those functions have the key to discerning the truth. Even Jung had said that early in life when people first develop their identity people prefer a particular function and develop strength in that but latter in life people learn to develop their other functions... the ultimate point being that all elements of one's character is in constant devleopment and if that is true, one can assume that inside every person their is a part of them that mirrors each of the 16 types. The only thing is some hold certain types in higher strength and other in lower strength, and eventually in life those with strengths in one area utilize those to develop their weaknesses and reach a state of balance and psychological health.

    Basically the key with Jungian Functions is that all of them play a role in us and all of them develop, Type isn't there to confine one into a narrow groove but its there to identity your individual strengths as a person. Strengths that will eventually in life be utilized to overcome weaknesses and develop to reach an overall balance.

    Let me be even more illustrative, in vague generic personality terms.....
    Consider someone who is aloof, intelligent, and introverted... there strength may be in there ability to analyze problems and produce profound and lofty thoughts, but they may seriously lack in interpersonal and social situations. Many people would be quick to judge such a type as simply being what it is and assume that person will forever be socially retarded and lonely, however the real truth lies in that person being able to look at themselves objectively and say, this is my strength, this is my weakness, now what can I do? They could use their intelligence to gain interpersonal insight and test it in social situations, using their strengths to make up for their weakness, later in life they won't even have to use their intellect, they will find themselves having developed an entire new skill, and they will find themselves with a journey on how they reached that new level, full of its failures and triumphs. Most people wouldn't expect this, they would simply enforce the type and its fundamental weaknesses as a sort of prison of expectations.

    Bottom line is type shouldn't be used to confine people, it should be used to understand oneself and other's better. Understanding oneself leads to intrapersonal intelligence which can be used to prosper. Understanding others leads to interpersonal intelligence which can be used to deal with others better through a greater capacity to understand their motivations, needs, interests, and desires.

    Now I've gotten a little off topic, but let me tie this back together.... the point is self-fulfilling propechies and projection come from a need to make people into something they are not and make yourself into something you are not. Type, personality, and psychology shouldn't be used to this end... its there for you to understand yourself and others better, to accept yourself for who you truely are and to see others for who they truely are... type only becomes false when you use it falsely and it only become true when you use it truely.

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    Jarno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Why would everyone fit into one of the 16 types? The theory itself is fun and all, but why people's thought processes develop like that? And not just most people's but everyone's???

    Have you ever wondered if maybe it's all just bullshit? Maybe it just seems to work because we're able to make our perception and understanding of the people around us fit into our notions of types and intertype relations.
    That's were experiments come into play.

    When typing other people and your relationships, there can only be one conclusion: It's extremely likely that socionics is correct.

  36. #36
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    It has explained to much to be debunked entirely. Some parts of the theory are definitely bullshit, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slater
    I AM
    Judge R E wants to have a word with you.

    http://www.powerweb.nl/userfiles//I-am-the-law.jpg

  37. #37
    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    P
    not P

    P: drink Pepsi
    P: doesn't drink Pepsi
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    It fits because we make it fit. Unfortunately, people either forget this or are not even aware of it in the first place.
    Sure.

    ...I think some people may have trouble with making the leap from some sort of very heady, very intellectual, very theoretical set of rules and ideas that allegedly govern what we are and how we interact -- to what is really going on, in a very visceral, instinctual, and concrete 'thing'. I say 'thing' because I don't really know what to call it. And maybe I'm deviating from standard-issue socionics here, I'm not sure. But when you really "feel" what it is like when an ESE or EIE uses Fe, and feel what it's like when that function dominants someone and their outlook, and feel what its like when you can sense the differences between Fe dominant who is in alpha quadra and has alpha values vs an Fe dominant who is in beta and has beta values.... when I feel all of that, it's hard to say, "oh socionics is bullshit".

    (Granted, talking about Fe dominance and quadras are socionics terminology, but I don't know how else to describe the intricacies of those feelings. ((thus, socionics!)). Seriously, I don't use socionics because I have a theory and I want to cram everything into it. I see it as useful, it talks about things you'd otherwise find difficult to comment on.)

    You can disagree with socionics theory if you want, but what you feel when you feel those things, that's real. You feel how it acts on your own psyche, and you "feel" or "sense" how things like that affects someone's entire nature.

    All socionics has done for me is explain those feelings; socionics is not those feelings, socionics is a means by which to explain that phenomenon and put sense to it. That's all.

    So when people say "I'm not a type" or "people don't fit into 16 types", I don't particularly disagree with them. People are people, not socionics types; It's putting the cart in front of the horse.

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    just because people do not entirely fit into the 16 types, does not necessarily mean the theory is 'all bullshit'. just like any word, the types can be used as descriptors, and applied to a situation as an abstraction of that situation. in this way the 'percentage' solution actually works quite well.. (though I'd want a more detailed explanation). also: please stop using cocaine, joy.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuturututu View Post
    If it doesn't suit you then throw it away. Whaddaya think? Just pick a new set of categories and make your own typology if that'll make you happier.
    Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. It's the still the same trap.

    (And I never call anyone good or evil.)
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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