NT/ST Women

[Lobo]

Are there things that annoy you about the woman's typical gender role in society that doesn't come natural to you, or you could do without?

[Joy]

Are there things that annoy you about the woman's typical gender role in society that doesn't come natural to you, or you could do without?

Um, I could do without gender roles at all, thank you very much.

Actually, I take that back. Gender roles are cool because it's fun to break them.

[Joy]

Are there things that annoy you about the woman's typical gender role in society that doesn't come natural to you, or you could do without?

So to answer your question more thoroughly, these are the gender roles that are particularly inapplicable to me:

The idea that the female is in charge of the housework.
The idea that male is in charge of initiating the relationship and females should play hard to get.
The idea that the male makes more money than the female.
The idea that the female should stay home with the kids (I know most people don't think this way anymore, but there are still people who think like that).
The idea that females aren't physically strong.
The idea that females don't have a lot of technical knowledge.
The idea that females are good at relationships.

[Blaze]

Are there things that annoy you about the woman's typical gender role in society that doesn't come natural to you, or you could do without?

absolutely. people expect women to be ethical or at least to be good at relationships. women are expected to take care of that stuff. the pressure will be experienced differently on the basis of the woman being ethically role/dual seeking (rationals) or ethically polr/hidden agenda (irrationals). fuck society though.

social expectations can either be reinforced or countered by the person's family upbringing and relationships. example: i was raised in an Fi valuing family in the presence of my infj father, so the social pressure was reinforced. on the other hand, my daughter entp is being raised by me, her estp father, and infp step mother and my infp boyfriend. so we sort of counter those social messages. fuck family messages, though, too.

i gotta be myself and i don't have to live by those rules. but i wouldn't use the word annoyed. i would use the word burden. i would say the overall weight of that burden depends on social, family, and individual factors. however, the burden of gender expectations has to be thrown off, and the earlier the better, so that you can embrace yourself for who you are and what you bring to the table. life is much easier when you estimate yourself accurately, accept your strengths and weaknesses, and make your choices accordingly.

gender roles are only there to justify the self serving needs and desires of men. they're there to try to control women. plain and simple.

[Brilliand]

The idea that the female is in charge of the housework.
The idea that male is in charge of initiating the relationship and females should play hard to get.

I can't think of a type that these both apply to. I think you've pulled these statements out of two separate stereotype systems.

The idea that females aren't physically strong.

This tendency actually exists, biologically. Erm... relative to the tendency for men...

[Joy]

I can't think of a type that these both apply to. I think you've pulled these statements out of two separate stereotype systems.

They both exist though.

This tendency actually exists, biologically. Erm... relative to the tendency for men...

Of course.

[Blaze]

Great post, really, except the last sentence, but that's prolly cuz you don't read those low level romantic novels written for the female audience, not to mention movies of the Twilight kind.

Although I really don't care much about diving into those waters, since everyone here goes stupidly berserk about that subject, the current stereotypes impose way more pressure and requirements on men, and women are the ultimate net benefactors of the whole web of stereotypes and expectations.

So in a way, although I do not insinuate this now about any particular forum member, it's in their interest to keep maintaining the notion that it's women who are the sufferers/victims/under control, thus calling for greater freedom and imposing further requirements on men, while it's them being in control from the backstages, imposing as dependents on men's mercy.

Decades of bitching and throwing hissy fits have done their job better than anyone dreamed of.

Understand? I'm not saying this is a big conspiracy, and a plan every woman follows in the greatest conspiracy of all, but this is how it works, so don't expect me to reply to idiotic impressions, thanks for reading, over and out.

YES! men suffer too, man.

seriously though it's true.

[Brilliand]

In summary...

Gender stereotypes make women helpless and men overburdened.

[squark]

Every once in awhile I think it would have been easier to be born male. The rest of the time, I'm rather happy being female.

Things that are the hardest for me are the social aspects. Men make so much more sense and talk about subjects that I can actually contribute to. I just feel like a fish out of water around a group of women discussing women-topics. When I try to contribute it just comes out all wrong. They stop and stare at me, and then go back to their discussion. I've learned to handle this just by keeping my mouth shut, nodding occassionally, and smiling when appropriate.

I spend a LOT of time reading about psychology and relationships trying to understand them. I feel like I should be better at this stuff, but I'm not. On paper, I can make sense of it, and lay things out in a semi-logical way, but apply that to real life and factor in emotions, and I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.

I'm not nurturing or very sympathetic, far too blunt, say things that people don't want to hear, have a terrible time trying to make things softer or more palatable, and don't think about how my words might affect someone else until they react badly to them.

I'm also much more physical and hands-on than most women. I'd much rather work on something real with a bunch of guys, something where you can see the results of your actions, and something gets accomplished. I want to be in the middle, doing stuff, not sitting on the sidelines holding out a glass of sweet tea or something.

My last boyfriend was LII, and he had never been with a logical woman before. He kept expecting ESE type behavior from me, and I kept expecting him to have more backbone and resistance, more passion (No offense to LIIs at all!.) Obviously, it didn't work out.

Gender stereotypes are around, sure, but I don't feel like I need to bend to them, nor fight them. I just keep on being me. The only time I get upset is when I'm talked down to or ignored because I'm female. I understand that I don't quite fit in with a lot of women, but it's not that big of a deal.

[07490]

Every once in awhile I think it would have been easier to be born male. The rest of the time, I'm rather happy being female.

Things that are the hardest for me are the social aspects. Men make so much more sense and talk about subjects that I can actually contribute to. I just feel like a fish out of water around a group of women discussing women-topics. When I try to contribute it just comes out all wrong. They stop and stare at me, and then go back to their discussion. I've learned to handle this just by keeping my mouth shut, nodding occassionally, and smiling when appropriate.

I spend a LOT of time reading about psychology and relationships trying to understand them. I feel like I should be better at this stuff, but I'm not. On paper, I can make sense of it, and lay things out in a semi-logical way, but apply that to real life and factor in emotions, and I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.

I'm not nurturing or very sympathetic, far too blunt, say things that people don't want to hear, have a terrible time trying to make things softer or more palatable, and don't think about how my words might affect someone else until they react badly to them.

I'm also much more physical and hands-on than most women. I'd much rather work on something real with a bunch of guys, something where you can see the results of your actions, and something gets accomplished. I want to be in the middle, doing stuff, not sitting on the sidelines holding out a glass of sweet tea or something.

My last boyfriend was LII, and he had never been with a logical woman before. He kept expecting ESE type behavior from me, and I kept expecting him to have more backbone and resistance, more passion (No offense to LIIs at all!.) Obviously, it didn't work out.

Gender stereotypes are around, sure, but I don't feel like I need to bend to them, nor fight them. I just keep on being me. The only time I get upset is when I'm talked down to or ignored because I'm female. I understand that I don't quite fit in with a lot of women, but it's not that big of a deal.

, Talking about a real girl, ^^^ here is one.

[Lobo]

Do you think this annoys logical women more than ethicals? If so, in what way?

I don't know really, it would depend on how and where they grew up. The reason I asked was out of curiosity to see if NT/ST women are as annoyed about certain gender roles as I am at times .

FWIW, I don't fit any stereotypes whatsoever, but I'm not annoyed by the "typical gender role in society", as I just live my life my way. I mean, I can't be anyone but myself, and I act as I find better for both myself and for people around me. I do my best, as I guess most people do.

Still, some of the effects of the gender roles upset me slightly at times - like when people dare to criticize me for my choices, when people try to tell me how I should be a good mother, when I hit glass ceilings because the old guy in charge doesn't like women, or when people answer my husband instead of me, when I was the one asking the question, etc.

But wth, life isn't fair, and if people think it is, they will just fight battles that aren't really worth it. I'm not American, though, and you might have stricter gender roles than we have.

Yeah, I agree. I'll get to the things that annoy me in particular further down.

I mean 'this' isn't Sparta ffs, calm the fuck down with the 80s action hero male ideal.

So to answer your question more thoroughly, these are the gender roles that are particularly inapplicable to me:

The idea that the female is in charge of the housework.
The idea that male is in charge of initiating the relationship and females should play hard to get.
The idea that the male makes more money than the female.
The idea that the female should stay home with the kids (I know most people don't think this way anymore, but there are still people who think like that).
The idea that females aren't physically strong.
The idea that females don't have a lot of technical knowledge.
The idea that females are good at relationships.

absolutely. people expect women to be ethical or at least to be good at relationships. women are expected to take care of that stuff. the pressure will be experienced differently on the basis of the woman being ethically role/dual seeking (rationals) or ethically polr/hidden agenda (irrationals). fuck society though.

social expectations can either be reinforced or countered by the person's family upbringing and relationships. example: i was raised in an Fi valuing family in the presence of my infj father, so the social pressure was reinforced. on the other hand, my daughter entp is being raised by me, her estp father, and infp step mother and my infp boyfriend. so we sort of counter those social messages. fuck family messages, though, too.

i gotta be myself and i don't have to live by those rules. but i wouldn't use the word annoyed. i would use the word burden. i would say the overall weight of that burden depends on social, family, and individual factors. however, the burden of gender expectations has to be thrown off, and the earlier the better, so that you can embrace yourself for who you are and what you bring to the table. life is much easier when you estimate yourself accurately, accept your strengths and weaknesses, and make your choices accordingly.

gender roles are only there to justify the self serving needs and desires of men. they're there to try to control women. plain and simple.

*Ahem* Not all men are like this . Things that annoy me:

- Guys have to open the car door for the woman. Whenever I do this I feel like I'm condescending towards the girl, because it's not like she's pulling 100lb by opening the car door herself.
- Whenever a girl expects me to treat her a certain way just because she is a girl. Anything like "You're a guy, you should *insert ridiculous expectation* for me." I really get turned off by this, unless it's a joke.
- Guys can't talk about feelings, or show emotion without their manhood being decreased. Ironically, people ask why some men end up being so dry and insensitive, when I bet this is one reason why they end up like that.

One time I went with this group of guys to a sports restaurant. All of them there were pretty much gawking at the women, while talking about their sexual experiences. I really don't like this type of stuff, but I just "went with the flow" and ate my food, probably wasn't going to see them again. Well, I thought our waitress was really cute (definitely some kind of ST girl) and I told my friend sitting next to me, which he said: "Her? Eh, she's not that feminine, but if you're into that..." It was like her level of attractiveness had to do with how well she conformed to the feminine "ideal." From the girls there she really stood out for me and I didn't see anything unattractive about her, and she looked genuine. Next thing I know, everybody in the table knows that I find her cute and proceed to call her to the table and tell her that I have something to say. It was an awkward situation, and she got annoyed and left.

[07490]

How so? Is she a "real girl" because she can't relate to other women? That sounds more like social incompetence or insecurity or even weak Fi or male-female complexes or something other that is even less positive.

The typical average feminine woman acting "helpless" who complains about everything annoys me dearly (No offense to them but I still can't handle that certain emotional pressure which is stem from just being things that shouldn't be made into that big of a deal. As for social incompetence, I can tell you that even if I could see there are good potentials of having a partner more sociable than I, I, Ideally would want someone who is more quiet, I can't tell you why I feel this way, but its always that something more mystical about them and their thought process that propels me and gets me drawn to them, like I believe that we, at least the type that are more introspective/imaginative always picture the prefect person for us, and that usually oddly apply to a person likely look at our dual, we do that even before we learn socionics, so answer your main question I believe Social incompetence/insecurity does not matter, because it's not something I calculated in advanced but rather has been envisioned without a format.

Is she a "real girl" because she prefers hands-on action? That sounds more like preferences, and I can't see why anyone should be included or excluded from their gender because of preferences.

Is she a "real girl" because she is honest about being blunt? (Possibly )

Is she a "real girl" because she's LSI? (Probably :wink

Leave the stereotype of me and her being Dual aside, and just going by the description itself, I think I am someone who is way too idealistic, sometimes non pragmatic by nature, therefore, I think most of the time I tried to be someone like that, and I genuinely love to take care of someone and Help them, this is done automatically, maybe part of my E-2 wing, but if I see someone who naggs and expect me to do everything for them even while it is something that even my grandmother can do, I completely lose my motivation to hlep them, where as people who really needs a helping hand because they really do want to get the stuff done, I would 10 times more likely to get my hands dirty and work with them to make it happen.

FWIW, I relate a LOT to what she wrote, it describes me, too, so this is not a criticism of her in any way. I just wanted to point the spotlight on something I've noticed in men - they seem to stereotype what a woman "should" be like (to be "real"). Women seem to be measured against some idea men have in their heads. At least when men are young. And the "girls" coming close to that ideal are "real". It's interesting to watch..... And I think it's where the gender stereotypes start, somehow...?

When you Pm me when you told me wittmount thinks you are identical to the he posted on the video on, I forgot her name, and that I typed the lady as a definite LSI, I think I should take that as a consideration that you are her identical too ;-), but then that will mean you are not strrnng dual. ;-(.

[07490]

If they are ACTING, then yeah, I agree. But what if they really are that way? Such women exist without acting, I think. I don't say you need to be attracted to them, but they are also "real", I guess....?

They are real, but it's just a real turn off to me, and when I was younger, the concept of, "I thought everyone was like me personality wise", which I think everyone has gone through, as people think everyone is their identical before they learn Socionics. I couldn't understand why some people act in a certain way that repulse me even when it is really that they are that way, and not ACTING. but now, studying 5 years of typology, you are right, some of them aren't acting and they are like this in a tamed way.

You are the second person this week suggesting I'm LSI, and even if I relate a lot to Ti-descriptions, I can't see myself as IJ-temperamental.

As for strrrng, I could always activate him.

As far as I can tell, he is the sexiest male user around here, girls love him...

[UDP]

Taliban

[Lobo]

Taliban

? Are you high again?

[Brilliand]

Armadillo