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Thread: ENTp: Asperger syndrome and high IQ

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    Default ENTp: Asperger syndrome and high IQ

    1) I haven't thought too much about it but, in my opinion, IQ tests measure and , so high IQ literally means "strong and "

    2) Asperger syndrome looks like an ENTp profile: high, intense focus on certain fields, low social abilities, etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    in my opinion, IQ tests measure and
    I think this is pretty true.

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    i've always thought aspergers is more LII or ILI, stereotypically at least. aspergers is probably independent of type though.

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    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    How does an SEI get 147 then? o_O

    I think that there are certain dangers involved with attributing intelligence - even intelligence tests which do indeed focus on some specific areas of intelligence - with certain types and functions. You tend to run the risk of suggesting that certain types are less intelligent than others by doing this, rather than making the realisation that not only will certain types value and therefore perhaps studty out of interest different things than others (I know that this point may also be an argument FOR achievements based on type in IQ tests, but moving on), but that attributing intelligence to certain types may indeed just be an unintentional display to others of 'you' making a judgment on others' intelligence based on what you personally value as intelligent (function values) rather than actual intelligence. What I'm essentially saying here is that attirubting any idea of intelligence to a specific type/types runs the risk of making you look.......stupid.

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    Furthermore - I think that suggesting that Aspergers people are either more or less intelligent than anyone else probably runs the risk of separating them from a feeling of belonging in society even more than they may already feel/others may feel. It seems like it is the sort of thing that builds more of a stigma around such people.

    I'm not saying that it isn't interesting or true/false, but I don't really like the idea of people feeling disconnected from others. People are people and I guess the best any one person can do is be accepting and try to help and understand when something in their world goes wrong concerning external influences such as other people.
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    IQ tests ime are based on identifying patterns of geometric forms or wavy lines or dots or w/e.

    I tentatively state that there may be type bias in IQ tests.

    This does not mean intelligence is correlated to type and is more a possible issue with IQ tests.
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    You beat my argument. You win 1 .
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    Huzzah!
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    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    ehh.. still remains the problem of an SEI supposedly having "strong and "

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    Obviously we are just evil geniuses. Obviously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    ehh.. still remains the problem of an SEI supposedly having "strong and "
    Parts of and can be stronger in an SEI than in an LII. We're not dealing with perfectly symmetrical beings here. It is true that most themes in IQ tests are of and based thoughts, maybe simple thoughts. They can be memorized and learned that way. There is no one answer to your question.

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    Or like others and I have been fucking saying for fucking forever is that you are "strong" in all your valued elements. More aptly, you use your valued elements and do not use your devalued elements. SEI use Ne instead of Se and Ti instead of Fi. Ne/Si is a macro element, same with Ti/Fe. Type is like a magnifying glass. SEI magnify and have greater concentration on the dynamic elements of Alpha (Si and Fe), but still need Ne to populate Si and Ti to gauge Fe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Or like others and I have been fucking saying for fucking forever is that you are "strong" in all your valued elements. More aptly, you use your valued elements and do not use your devalued elements. SEI use Ne instead of Se and Ti instead of Fi. Ne/Si is a macro element, same with Ti/Fe. Type is like a magnifying glass. SEI magnify and have greater concentration on the dynamic elements of Alpha (Si and Fe), but still need Ne to populate Si and Ti to gauge Fe.
    This is definitely false. The id, by definition is stronger than the super-id. Which is more visible is another topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Or like others and I have been fucking saying for fucking forever is that you are "strong" in all your valued elements. More aptly, you use your valued elements and do not use your devalued elements. SEI use Ne instead of Se and Ti instead of Fi. Ne/Si is a macro element, same with Ti/Fe. Type is like a magnifying glass. SEI magnify and have greater concentration on the dynamic elements of Alpha (Si and Fe), but still need Ne to populate Si and Ti to gauge Fe.
    I think that an intelligent person will find a way to .. erm .. populate their functions if they find they need to - doesn't necessarily mean that they're using the function that would be the most ideal for the job. The fact that it seems a relief when your dual takes over things related to your dual-seeking function probably means that you've been doing things the "dumb" way in the scheme of things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Supervisor of Numbers
    There was this very very very cute SEI pharmacist today at work, She has worked in my stores for a while, Don't have a boyfriend atm, I think she just isn't out there to date, but put some heavily applied make-up, looking for a boyfriend, I really really don't mind having her as my girlfriend to be very humbly honest, and very attractive as well in personality as well, Caregiver/soft gentle sweet loving female.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    There was this very very very cute SEI pharmacist today at work, She has worked in my stores for a while, Don't have a boyfriend atm, I think she just isn't out there to date, but put some heavily applied make-up, looking for a boyfriend, I really really don't mind having her as my girlfriend to be very humbly honest, and very attractive as well in personality as well, Caregiver/soft gentle sweet loving female.
    lol .. and what do you want with softness, gentleness and sweetness? :-P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    lol .. and what do you want with softness, gentleness and sweetness? :-P
    That is all I need, and be reasonable with the your supervise, you dont want to hurt him.there are times when SEI just look at me without saying anything, I used to think that was very very awkward moment, as if they should said something all ready, which makes me more nervous and tense. but actually now I do enjoy the more calmer state, as if I should "Zen" along with them, its almost like meditation when you are with a SEI, It applies if you are an ENFj because connects with Fe-Fe then take in their SI sort of speak to feel more relax.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    This is definitely false. The id, by definition is stronger than the super-id. Which is more visible is another topic.
    Nah, see this "definition" is not some objective fact. It's the brainchild of a ukrainian lassie, who, by the way, does not happen to be God.

    So if I make observations that do not fit quite right into her system, then I will eventually look for or come up with a system that explains things more accurately from what I am observing. A minor tweak or major divergence. In this case, its a significant tweak, but does little to affect the basic premises of Socionics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    That is all I need, and be reasonable with the your supervise, you dont want to hurt him.there are times when SEI just look at me without saying anything, I used to think that was very very awkward moment, as if they should said something all ready, which makes me more nervous and tense. but actually now I do enjoy the more calmer state, as if I should "Zen" along with them, its almost like meditation when you are with a SEI, It applies if you are an ENFj because connects with Fe-Fe then take in their SI sort of speak to feel more relax.
    Thinking that I'd put someone into a meditative state would make me nervous and tense though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Thinking that I'd put someone into a meditative state would make me nervous and tense though!
    Your cat looks nervous, Jem.


    Sorry for derailing this thread BTW.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Nah, see this "definition" is not some objective fact. It's the brainchild of a ukrainian lassie, who, by the way, does not happen to be God.

    So if I make observations that do not fit quite right into her system, then I will eventually look for or come up with a system that explains things more accurately from what I am observing. A minor tweak or major divergence. In this case, its a significant tweak, but does little to affect the basic premises of Socionics.
    Think about any type for a moment... you're going to tell me that the 6th function is more apparent than the 8th?

    Beside, the whole point of duality is to help each other with weaknesses. If you really accept that, then you might as well drop every idea you have about socionics type behaviors and relations.
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    I'm not good at my dual-seeking function.

    HA: weak
    Dual-seeking: weak

    HA: confident
    Dual-seeking: unconfident

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    No, I don't think so, I know ESIs that can do the typical IQ things quite well. I think Ne+Ti can apply the same type of reasoning to IRL situations more easily, but that every type depending on their brainpower can harness it in isolation.
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    Yeah, there is more than one method to solve IQ questions. Plus I know ESIs who are really good with interpreting Ti concepts, and SEEs who are really good with interpreting Ne concepts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Think about any type for a moment... you're going to tell me that the 6th function is more apparent than the 8th?

    Beside, the whole point of duality is to help each other with weaknesses. If you really accept that, then you might as well drop every idea you have about socionics type behaviors and relations.
    Yes I certainly am going to tell you that.

    The whole point of duality is that you have complementary thought processes and communication styles (also energy levels, "world view", etc).

    The elements are not selecting different types of information and ignoring others.

    The elements are taking the same information and processing it in different ways.

    So, being ILE I dont need help with internal object dynamics. Thats just an element that factors into the macro element Ti/Fe. Its simply a way I perceive information.

    I will, however, find it quite helpful if people are on the same page as me. ESI are never on the same page as me. The way they process information is indigestible and hence when they try to communicate things to me I will have trouble relating. SEI's are operating on Alpha elements. They will remind me of the Fe causalities and Si context which I can then factor into Ti and Ne. This makes me feel relaxed and/or energized as I now have someone who both understands where I am coming from and who will bring me a more refined, direct, and complex version of Fe-Si than I could have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Yeah, there is more than one method to solve IQ questions. Plus I know ESIs who are really good with interpreting Ti concepts, and SEEs who are really good with interpreting Ne concepts.
    No. You know people you've typed as Gamma SF's who are good at what you think are Ti and Ne concepts.

    Thats not to say that IQ tests are Ne-Ti, which I'm unwilling to claim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    The elements are not selecting different types of information and ignoring others.

    The elements are taking the same information and processing it in different ways.
    I agree that an event can be processed in different ways, but I also agree that an event has different types of information elements that are read by their respective functions.

    How do you know that its the same information being processed by a different element?

    No. You know people you've typed as Gamma SF's who are good at what you think are Ti and Ne concepts.
    How can you be so sure that he's wrong?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    How can you be so sure that he's wrong?
    Because the alternative is to not be sure about anything.

    At least, that's how unhealthy Six reasoning goes. On the flip side, Jake can be pretty good at seeing through obfuscating crap. It's like maintaining a stable state of unflappable partial incorrectness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    I'm not good at my dual-seeking function.

    HA: weak
    Dual-seeking: weak

    HA: confident
    Dual-seeking: unconfident
    should you be confident of your hidden agenda?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    should you be confident of your hidden agenda?
    I don't think that confidence directly follows from type... but you're basically going to use your HA whether you like it or not, so it could come off as confidence, or form a sort of resigned confidence (as in, I'm not great at this, but I'm going to do it and I'm going to at least sort of succeed).

    Imo the DS is a safer function to be confident in, because you're capable of withdrawing it if it you find yourself failing. Of course, this can be annoying to your dual if you pull back into your shell too quickly for them to notice and come to the rescue with their ever-active, elephantine base function. Also, it's easier to be consistently unconfident about your DS, because it's possible to live out your unconfidence (by keeping your DS withdrawn) rather than secretly being nervous about what you're doing anyway.

    Unconfidence in ego functions is harder to come by, because you can usually figure out that you're right, but it can happen with heavy opposition from those close to you.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    I agree that an event can be processed in different ways, but I also agree that an event has different types of information elements that are read by their respective functions.

    How do you know that its the same information being processed by a different element?
    Ah, well this you might find interesting.

    Looking at a tree will never give anyone a polr hit lol. Discovering coins under your couch will not give you the feeling of duality. Making a chair out of a stump or thinking about the future will not affect you socionically.

    Socionics only comes into play when dealing with human behavior and communication whether verbal, visual, or written.

    This is because information by itself is not favored by any element.

    When someone perceives information, digests it by their elements, and then writes a poem about it you can be affected socionically.

    This is because the information has been colored by the person/type presenting it.

    The same appliess to art, literature, media, conversations, non-fiction, etc.

    So yes, Ti is attracted and appreciates Ti information. Ti information is information that has been presented by a Ti valuer.

    This is why intertype relationships happen. ESFj's feel a void of Fe upon communicating with a INTp and thus find them incomprehensible in all but the most superficial and and simple of messages.

    The elements do not exist outside of your psyche.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Because the alternative is to not be sure about anything.

    At least, that's how unhealthy Six reasoning goes. On the flip side, Jake can be pretty good at seeing through obfuscating crap. It's like maintaining a stable state of unflappable partial incorrectness.
    As I grew from a child into a teenager, I went through a realization that I will stick to something and be certain it is true to the extent of ignoring valid arguments against it.

    Understanding that aspect of myself, I became afraid to ever be certain about anything.

    If I cannot convince someone of something I will play out imaginary conversations in my head with that person until I feel certain that I would convince them if the discussion happened.This mean pacing around for hours having to have the same conversation playing out about gestaltism with Ashton and Nick. Not fun. Then it continues even if im trying to sleep.

    It does help me refine my arguments and make sure Im sure that Im sure im right, though.

    I may seem certain about things, but I never am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khola View Post
    Are you gay now Gulanzon?
    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Ah, well this you might find interesting.

    Looking at a tree will never give anyone a polr hit lol. Discovering coins under your couch will not give you the feeling of duality. Making a chair out of a stump or thinking about the future will not affect you socionically.

    Socionics only comes into play when dealing with human behavior and communication whether verbal, visual, or written.

    This is because information by itself is not favored by any element.
    None of this is true except the polr hit part. A "polr hit" only happens when you are forced to deal with your polr over a favorable function. Some types will favor making a chair or thinking about the future because it has valued elements to it. Discovering a coin won't be rewarding because there isn't enough new or exciting information to it.

    When someone perceives information, digests it by their elements, and then writes a poem about it you can be affected socionically.

    This is because the information has been colored by the person/type presenting it.

    The same appliess to art, literature, media, conversations, non-fiction, etc.
    True, more elements will be added if this is done, but it won't be any more exciting than discovering a coin if the elements added aren't new or valued.

    So yes, Ti is attracted and appreciates Ti information. Ti information is information that has been presented by a Ti valuer.

    This is why intertype relationships happen. ESFj's feel a void of Fe upon communicating with a INTp and thus find them incomprehensible in all but the most superficial and and simple of messages.

    The elements do not exist outside of your psyche.
    Where did the information come from? Did it pop out from thin air? No, we experience information aspects and then manipulate them if we are proficient enough with that type of information. The manipulated and concentrated information is then more valuable and rich than what can simply be experienced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    None of this is true except the polr hit part. A "polr hit" only happens when you are forced to deal with your polr over a favorable function. Some types will favor making a chair or thinking about the future because it has valued elements to it. Discovering a coin won't be rewarding because there isn't enough new or exciting information to it.
    A polr hit happens when information is presented in a way opposite to your creative function.

    Time/the future does not have a little tag on it that says "I'm Ni =D!!!". Time is a fundamental aspect of existence. holy shit.

    Information is just blank until it has been formatted by a human psyche and spat back out in some form or another.

    If you believe thinking about the future or making chairs is type related, I really don't know if we can find common ground now.


    Where did the information come from? Did it pop out from thin air? No, we experience information aspects and then manipulate them if we are proficient enough with that type of information. The manipulated and concentrated information is then more valuable and rich than what can simply be experienced.
    Information comes from sensory stimulae or mental projection that is then interpreted by the brain, in short.

    Information can only be "Xx" if it has already passed through a human psyche. The degree to which elements are present is varied.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Time/the future does not have a little tag on it that says "I'm Ni =D!!!". Time is a fundamental aspect of existence. holy shit.

    Information is just blank until it has been formatted by a human psyche and spat back out in some form or another.

    If you believe thinking about the future or making chairs is type related, I really don't know if we can find common ground now.
    There will be varying degrees of every type of element for everything that exists.

    Type will, to some degree, determine how much enjoyment one will get from different activities.

    Information comes from sensory stimulae or mental projection that is then interpreted by the brain, in short.

    Information can only be "Xx" if it has already passed through a human psyche. The degree to which elements are present is varied.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    One of the most fundamental concepts in socionics is the idea of information elements, or facets of reality. The idea is that reality can be divided into categories that different individuals perceive with differing degrees of clarity and precision. These information elements correspond to Jung's 8 psychic functions, but have been given a new meaning. If there are 8 possible different "leading functions" that perceive different aspects of reality, then reality can itself be described in terms of these 8 different aspects. This was a critical step in the development of socionics that led to everything else.
    Socionics :: Information Elements
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 09-08-2009 at 03:21 AM.
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    1. Having read Psychological Types, I dont recall Jung stating that the types perceive different parts of reality. His idea was that types experience reality (information) in different ways

    2. You are arguing circularly. I know perfectly well what mainstream Socionics believes, but it could still be wrong.

    3. I want you to explain to me what "internal object dynamics" has to do with emotions. This might be revealing to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    1. Having read Psychological Types, I dont recall Jung stating that the types perceive different parts of reality. His idea was that types experience reality (information) in different ways

    2. You are arguing circularly. I know perfectly well what mainstream Socionics believes, but it could still be wrong.

    3. I want you to explain to me what "internal object dynamics" has to do with emotions. This might be revealing to you.
    Experiencing reality in different ways does not mean experiencing information aspects with a function that does not contain that IE.

    The whole point is that you can perceive emotions. If you can perceive emotions then your mind is processing that. If your mind is processing it then it is with the corresponding IE.

    Reality may contain more than just the 8 IEs, but if it does, then we are not processing it and therefore are completely unaware of its existance.



    All of what you are saying may be true, but if it is, it is not socionics, and you should not be referring to socionic types.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Experiencing reality in different ways does not mean experiencing information aspects with a function that does not contain that IE.
    My point is that information about "time" for example will not give a polr hit to Ni polr. They will perceive this fundamental aspect of existence through the lens of whatever elements they value. ESFj will perceive and explain time in X way, INTp will perceive and explain time in Y way.

    The whole point is that you can perceive emotions. If you can perceive emotions then your mind is processing that. If your mind is processing it then it is with the corresponding IE.
    What element corresponds with emotions and why? Would a ISTp not understand the emotions of a ENFp? Are the emotions of a ESFj more understandable to an INTj than the emotions of ESFp? Why?

    Reality may contain more than just the 8 IEs, but if it does, then we are not processing it and therefore are completely unaware of its existance.
    Thats just silly.


    *edit: And finally you drop the "get out of our club!" bomb. This is usually when I know I'm getting through to people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    My point is that information about "time" for example will not give a polr hit to Ni polr. They will perceive this fundamental aspect of existence through the lens of whatever elements they value. ESFj will perceive and explain time in X way, INTp will perceive and explain time in Y way.
    It isn't mere exposure to an element that causes a polr hit. Nor is time limited to Ni. It may have more Ni than anything else though. They will experience the event differently because they are looking at different aspects of the same event.

    What element corresponds with emotions and why? Would a ISTp not understand the emotions of a ENFp? Are the emotions of a ESFj more understandable to an INTj than the emotions of ESFp? Why?
    Mostly Fe, but there will be other elements to it. All types are capable of understanding all elements. To what degree depends on type. Elements will be better refined by types with more comprehension of that element. For INTj to have a good understanding of Fe, it has to be highly refined. ESFj does just that. ESFp will actually be able to understand the Fe better than INTj, but ESFp sees it as useless for what it wants.

    Thats just silly.
    How so?.. and regardless, it's the foundation of socionics.

    edit:
    *edit: And finally you drop the "get out of our club!" bomb. This is usually when I know I'm getting through to people.
    Not true. All I'm saying is that you should not refer to a theory that you're not talking about. You're the one now making this personal not I.
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 09-08-2009 at 04:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khola View Post
    Are you gay now Gulanzon?
    Between you and Jake, can I be bi?

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