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Thread: Enneagram types 8w9 and 9w8

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    Default Enneagram types 8w9 and 9w8

    In simple terms...

    8 is considered to be the most domineering and confrontational of all types - wanting control over their life
    9 is considered to be the least domineering and confrontational of all types - wanting harmony and peace

    How can it make sense for 9w8 and 8w9 to exist when it seems to imply being confrontational and unconfrontational at the same time? How would this manifest itself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    In simple terms...

    8 is considered to be the most domineering and confrontational of all types - wanting control over their life
    9 is considered to be the least domineering and confrontational of all types - wanting harmony and peace

    How can it make sense for 9w8 and 8w9 to exist when it seems to imply being confrontational and unconfrontational at the same time? How would this manifest itself?
    Passive aggressive personality.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    8w9
    Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano. Slow to erupt but when they do it's sudden and explosive. When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions. If very unhealthy, they can be mean without remorse or aggressive in the service of stupid ends. Paranoid plotting, muddled thinking, moral laziness. Can be vengeful in ill-conceived ways, abuse those they love, don't know when to quit.

    9w8
    Awakened Nines with an 8 wing have a modest, steady, receptive core. They are charged by the dynamism of 8 - when focused on goals they often have great force of will. Get things done, make good leaders. May have an animal magnetism of which they are only partly aware. Can seem highly centered, take what they do seriously but remain unimpressed with themselves. 8 wing can bring a strong internal sense of direction. Relatively fearless and highly intuitive. Generally not intellectual unless they have it in their background. When more entranced, they manifest the contradictions of the two styles expressing them in sequence. Could be passively amiable like a Nine and then turn horribly blunt like an 8. One moment they are opinionated or nasty, next moment kindly and supportive. Often don't hear their voices when angry. Can have a sharp, grating edge. May be slow to anger and then explode. Or angry but don't know it; may confuse being assertive with being rude. Placidly callous - both styles support numbness. Tactless and indiscriminate and indiscreet. May be unwittingly disloyal, spilling everyone's secrets. Sexual confusion, sometimes they are driven by lust.

    from The Enneagram Blogspot
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    so basically 8w9s are the biggest badasses of all time

    - Darth Vader
    maybe even sephiroth

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    9w8 is like a super chill badass, but 8w9 is like a badass that happens to be super chill.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by fear of sleep View Post
    9w8 is like a super chill badass, but 8w9 is like a badass that happens to be super chill.
    iloveu.
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    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    8w9
    Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano. Slow to erupt but when they do it's sudden and explosive. When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions. If very unhealthy, they can be mean without remorse or aggressive in the service of stupid ends. Paranoid plotting, muddled thinking, moral laziness. Can be vengeful in ill-conceived ways, abuse those they love, don't know when to quit.

    9w8
    Awakened Nines with an 8 wing have a modest, steady, receptive core. They are charged by the dynamism of 8 - when focused on goals they often have great force of will. Get things done, make good leaders. May have an animal magnetism of which they are only partly aware. Can seem highly centered, take what they do seriously but remain unimpressed with themselves. 8 wing can bring a strong internal sense of direction. Relatively fearless and highly intuitive. Generally not intellectual unless they have it in their background. When more entranced, they manifest the contradictions of the two styles expressing them in sequence. Could be passively amiable like a Nine and then turn horribly blunt like an 8. One moment they are opinionated or nasty, next moment kindly and supportive. Often don't hear their voices when angry. Can have a sharp, grating edge. May be slow to anger and then explode. Or angry but don't know it; may confuse being assertive with being rude. Placidly callous - both styles support numbness. Tactless and indiscriminate and indiscreet. May be unwittingly disloyal, spilling everyone's secrets. Sexual confusion, sometimes they are driven by lust.

    from The Enneagram Blogspot
    hmmmm good description.... where are people likely to see 8w9 and 9w8 in society and how do they act day to day... these descriptions paint the potrait of 8w9 and 9w8 at their peaks and at their low points, but what about day to day experience?

    and.. wtf is entranced?

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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Passive aggressive personality.
    passive aggressive? Sometimes. I tend to see how long I can get away with it before I have to stand up and make my position known, fuck everyone who disagrees.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

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    Wink I am supposed to be 9w8

    I came here because i tried to find eights.
    I am not sure if they ever visit these sites
    The topic was interesting, pity there wasn´t more posts.
    If someone wants to ask something maybe
    I can give some info about hmm 9w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    and.. wtf is entranced?
    Being unaware of your type's defences in action, I think.

    Being "awakened" or "present" is being aware of your type's defences firing up as they do so, so being able to catch yourself manifesting the low sides of your type.

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    Well I find all ISFP, some INFP and some INFJ to be enneagram type 9. The remainder enneagram type for both INFP and INFJ is enneagram type 4. More recently, I view some ENTJ and some ESTJ as type 8 and that seems to be on the mark.

    I can not scientifically prove this, other than they seem like a suitable match. However, to be fair I've made mistakes with even properly identifying socionic types.

    You can refer to this as my hypothesis: Extroverted thinking is domineering. However, psychologically, whenever ENTJ and ESTJ use their creative function they display uncharacteristic behaviour of their main function and behave cooperatively.

    Enneagram type 8 is characterized as domineering however they can display uncharacteristic behaviour of their type, as a matter of growth, they can be cooperative and nurturing much like enneagram type 2.

    Important notice: behaviourism is concerned solely with objective behaviour demonstrated by the person. Their subjective and cognitive perspective is not considered as a factor in determing the cause of their behaviour. The meaning of this statement is a person can cognize their type, however, when they demonstrate behaviour characteristic of extroverted thinking, behaviourist will consider that to be the determining factor in identifying which type they are rather than who the person 'thinks' they are.

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    I think what is most confusing for people about E8s is the difference between E8s that value Fe vs Fi, and also the difference in wings.

    The classic E8, and most type descriptions of E8s, are of SLE 8w7s, who are boisterous and "larger than life" - maybe that's how they seem to Fe valuing people, but not to me. Those types to me seem like they are trying far too much to garner an appearance of domination or power or prestige.

    8w9s "hold their power in reserve". I can come off as both very distanced and an air of superiority (Darth Vader), and also extremely nonchalant and almost non-imposing, very caring, even appearing frail. But I always have my hands on the pulse of power dynamics. I probably prefer a situation where I don't have to be showing off all the time to defend my power or respect, as such is sort of unappealing work to me. Unappealing but necessary at times.

    E8s will not remain in a situation where their power or capabilities are compromised for very long. The different wings more or less have different styles for how to go about it.

    I personally like my style better - and the 'name' 8w9 'the bear' works decently for it. Unlike the 8w7s who are more racing around, fighting lots of fights, getting into battles, charging forward almost like they have no other option (that's how it seems to me at times), I find myself more menacing, and more totally dominant. I see a lot of 8w7s get caught up in trivialities of ego, and they enjoy more than I pushing certain envelopes in regard to people. Where as myself, it's more a slow, sometimes unnoticeable movement (I think 8w9s are better at stealth and deception, or "less flashy methods"). I feel more in tune with E5 at times, and I'm more mental, colder. I still have the same sort of fiery brashness that 8s have, but it is situationally dependent, and comes out when I want it to - I give people space, usually, to be themselves. On the whole I see myself as more guarded - and Darth Vader is a good, albeit incomplete comparison - especially because of the black suite, and inhumanness that it embodies. The problem is that Darth Vader doesn't show to me the outward drive... and that simplifies what it feels like for me - 8w9 definitely feels like a mixture of fire and ice; it's conflicting at times, to be honest.



    I run into a lot of 'problems' with some 8w7s, and a lot of 3s, because we seem to really gravitate towards the use of power, and can have very different beliefs about how power should be used. I have a sort of immediate sense of understanding when it comes to other 8w9s, even 8w9 SLEs (I've met some) - it's a sense that nobody will impose their will upon us, and there is a very icy side, even to the Fe-valuing SLE. Thus term "armor" comes to mind. The difference between SLE and LSE 8s (or even just specifically 8w9s) in my experience is that they both focus a great deal on being 'cutthroat' in regard to their dominant function; for my SLE 8w9 friend, Te is "nice" but it's not as essential as always keeping full throttle on Se - whereas to me that's sort of arbitrary because I'm much more focused on "results" and what I consider as "profit', and Se is only a tool to achieve such. (You can also sort of extrapolate, in general, the rest of the quadra values seeing the differences in valued/unvauled Se & Te)


    The only 9w8 I know is an SLI. Reminds me of some clint eastwood things, but, this one is much less engaged in the world, probably sp/sx/so. Similar to me, but not EJ, not as rational, not engaging, not driven by Te as much.

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    hey Ryu, any idea which ESTJ subtype you are?

    So far, my view is some ESTJ and some ENTJ can be typed as enneagram 8. The subtype is their accepting function, extroverted thinking, for both but I can not tell which subtype corresponds with the wings - 8w7 maverick and 8w9 bear.

    You say 8w9 sounds right for you and your ESJT, so I'll go with that - we can eliminate the possibility of ESTJ not being 8w9 and if I had to guess I would say your subtype is extroverted thinking.

    Another view is the remainder of ESTJ and ENTJ can be typed as enneagram 1. The subtype is their producing function, introverted sensation for ESTJ and introverted intuition for ENTJ, but again I can not tell which subtype corresponds with the wings.

    All in all enneagram 8 and 1 are extroverted thinking types and all enneagram 2 are extroverted feeling types in my view - threw that in there.

    If this helps to answer the original question as to why 8 and 9 are adjacent but yet oppositional is due to the 8 having a prevalence for their own instinct and 9 having an aloofness toward their own instincts. I read this somewhere on the internet.

    For all heart, head and intinct (aka gut), there is too much, out of touch, and too little within each "domain" - for lack of a better word.

    So for heart types: 2 show too much emotion, 3 is out of touch with their own emotions, and 4 shows too little emotion.

    head types: 5 show too much thinking, 6 is out of touch with their own thoughts, and 7 think too little.

    instinct types: 8 show too much instinct, 9 is out of touch with their own instincts, and 1 show too little instinct.

    even though there remains a few unanswered questions, has anyone considered the way inwhich 'growth' happens. If for example, a 8w9 moves in direction toward 2, would they be more inclined to exhibit behaviour like 2w1 or 2w3?

    If 8 moves toward 2, 9 moves toward 3, and your type is 8w9 then you move toward 2w3 - makes sense.

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    I'm actually not sure which subtype I am. I thought Te for a longgggg time. Then I thought Si. Now I feel more like Te again, but I'm not sure.

    I know a 1w9 LSE-Te. He's very dry.


    the too little, out of touch, too much is an interesting way to think about those categories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    How can it make sense for 9w8 and 8w9 to exist when it seems to imply being confrontational and unconfrontational at the same time? How would this manifest itself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    8w9
    Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano. Slow to erupt but when they do it's sudden and explosive. When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions. If very unhealthy, they can be mean without remorse or aggressive in the service of stupid ends. Paranoid plotting, muddled thinking, moral laziness. Can be vengeful in ill-conceived ways, abuse those they love, don't know when to quit.

    9w8
    Awakened Nines with an 8 wing have a modest, steady, receptive core. They are charged by the dynamism of 8 - when focused on goals they often have great force of will. Get things done, make good leaders. May have an animal magnetism of which they are only partly aware. Can seem highly centered, take what they do seriously but remain unimpressed with themselves. 8 wing can bring a strong internal sense of direction. Relatively fearless and highly intuitive. Generally not intellectual unless they have it in their background. When more entranced, they manifest the contradictions of the two styles expressing them in sequence. Could be passively amiable like a Nine and then turn horribly blunt like an 8. One moment they are opinionated or nasty, next moment kindly and supportive. Often don't hear their voices when angry. Can have a sharp, grating edge. May be slow to anger and then explode. Or angry but don't know it; may confuse being assertive with being rude. Placidly callous - both styles support numbness. Tactless and indiscriminate and indiscreet. May be unwittingly disloyal, spilling everyone's secrets. Sexual confusion, sometimes they are driven by lust.

    from The Enneagram Blogspot
    hmmmm good description.... where are people likely to see 8w9 and 9w8 in society and how do they act day to day... these descriptions paint the potrait of 8w9 and 9w8 at their peaks and at their low points, but what about day to day experience?

    and.. wtf is entranced?

    I'm a 9w8(i show a lot of 1 wing tendencies too when I lose my confidence, there are a lot of cases of 9's having both wings, but as a kid i had a lot more of an 8 wing in me) and my older brother is a 8w9. We didn't have a dad around so he assumed a lot of those responsibilities. Growing up he'd always help with keeping me energized, on the go, and focused on my goals(something 9's desparately need!). He is an extremely hard worker, which I'm thankful rubbed off on me. There were times he'd want to be left alone and would withdraw(his 9 wing to blame I think lol), but typically he'd seek out my company(my magnetism??). He was quite confrontational when we were kids, and sometimes our fights would last a while cause it would take so long to get a rise out of me.. But once he got me going past my initial withdrawal or harsh responses, what seemed to solve the problem would be to just let him know how he was making me feel, and he'd apologize shortly after. Both types can have issues with anger, 8's tend to explode while 9's will tend to implode. There was a lot of balance between the two of us on our good days. Even though I'm 5 years younger I tended to be the voice of reason between the two of us. My desire to find a solution and get back to peace and harmony drove me to help him see the other side of a situation. He would always compliment me on my "natural talents" and creativity, I'd compliment him on his perseverance and confidence. It can be hard to tell the difference between the two in a social setting(or in day-to-day situations, this could also be due to the fact 9's tend to lack a clear sense of self, so as his little brother I'm sure the way I approached a lot of situations socially were influenced by him). There's a blend of confidence and steadiness in both of their energies. But in the face of trial, the dynamics that are needed from each type tend to come out and these two types can make a great team!

    I love what was said a few posts above, "9w8 is a chill bad ass, while an 8w9 is a bad ass that happens to be chill." lol pretty damn accurate I'd say.

    I'm an ISFP, not sure what my brother's MBTI type is.
    (random^ but thought I'd throw that in there lol)

    And I'm not sure if this got mentioned, but entranced is just when you're acting out of your personality and you're not aware of it. Sometimes learning about our personality type can make us feel like we're being put in a box(one of my initial reactions to learning about the enneagram). But I have to remember I HAVE a personality, that doesn't mean i AM a personality. Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    so basically 8w9s are the biggest badasses of all time

    - Darth Vader
    maybe even sephiroth
    Darth Vader's an 8w7. Palpatine is a very awesome example of an 8w9.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    My husband and I are both 8 and 9's. Husband SLE-Se 8w9 Me IEI-Fe 9w8 Both highly passive aggressive xD

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    This is why the conventional enneatype descriptions just don't make a lot of sense. Why should 8 and 9 be neighbors indeed?

    These both suffer from a suppression of psychological impoverishment, except the 9 does this in a manner which seeks inertia relative to the surroundings. By the way, that doesn't mean they have to be quiet, peaceful -- but it's true they are not likely to be vindictive or especially invested when they encounter conflict. I don't like the description of conflict avoidance, as if anything I think head types can frequently have motivations to do this too (type 6 very noteworthy, and type 7 and 5 in their own special ways).
    They are more instinctual creatures, and part of this tends to be a great concern with fulfilling their instinctual impulses. A 9's stubbornness comes from this in part.

    The difference is 8 is an implicit rejection of fear (not like the countertype of E6, which is more explicit), and therefore, where inhibition and aversion are concerned, 8 rejects these for forcefulness and a forceful moving towards --- instead of insisting on reacting on instinct, it actually intensifies the instinct. In extreme cases this focus leads to loss of touch with the mind and heart centers.

    Both the craving of value, respect, worth, and meaningfulness in the eyes of others which 234 share and the inhibition and sense of lack that the head types battle are suppressed in the instinctual types.

    One presentation emphasizes the dual inner deadness of these types (9, 8), though that presentation tends to give analogy to pathological manifestations, in order to illustrate the enneatype patterns.

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    You can look at it as the gut-triad types expanding from 9, that way it's not as abrupt.

    8w7 = Aggressive expansion
    8w9 = Power in reserve
    9w8 = Indifferent but occasionally territorial and defensive
    9w1 = Indifferent but occasionally critical and vindictive
    1w9 = Critical but reserved
    1w2 = Asserting standards (?)

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    The superficial differences between 8 and 9 can be easily mitigated once you realize that both types stem from the same neuroses revolving around desire. Sure 8s are usually more combative and defensive than 9s, but that doesn't make them inherently opposites. Both have deep issue with anger and getting what they want out of life in the face of obstacles. They just take different approaches to dealing with it. 8s will usually be more overcompensatory when faced with what they see as spinelessness in themselves, projecting a tougher exterior to drive away prospective obstacles that could impede them from getting what they want. Anger is externalized, expressed more easily. 9s can become so accustomed to their desires being thwarted that, when unwell, they'll sort of forget that they even have desires at all. You can certainly have flavors of one in the other, since they're both just different expressions of the same fixation.

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