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Thread: The Fundamental Empirical Basis for Socionics

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    Smile The Fundamental Empirical Basis for Socionics

    First I would like to declare that my type is Ni-INTp.

    I believe I have a discovered a subconscious link in my memory which determines the quadra values and supervision cycles, leading to the types. I am certain that IM types are consciously or subconsciously chosen, and are promoted by emotional associations with the method. A little known fact I discovered in kindergarten is that ego response is aligned to socionic quadra order (though I have always known this, I made the connection with socionics only very recently). Alphas choose to respond immediately to phenomena, as though they are looking for it. Betas respond next, no longer in the dogmatic judicious sense but rather in the decisive critical sense; both are still merry as they accept the stimuli in the context of their own thoughts and the feelings they have collectively accepted. These quadras process much quicklier and at a faster refresh rate, thus dealing with more statistical superficialities that are better accommodated with an response which serves both as a reference for stimuli and allows the person to better accomodate the discovery immediately within the context of the emotional atmosphere and their personal beliefs. allows Alphas to sort firsthand for useful ideas and allows Betas, who as autocrats share a sense of agency more than a sense of immediate wonder, to judge each other's awareness of the new discovery. I would like to note here that process types metabolize from a state whereas result types metabolize to a state. Gammas, by the third response, are not only decisive but decidedly serious, as by this time the discovery has sparked enough interest to warrant and , which are used to integrate the discovery into a practical solution in society. Lastly, Deltas, who are still serious after the decisions have been made, integrate the most important aspects into the general and scheme of the present to be slowly maintained within that sphere until inspiring an Alpha response in someone some way...not to be mistaken, though all people have responses in each quadra, Alpha types have ego/superid responses in the immediate reflex, unvalued agency responses (which are conscious within the identical and conflictor supervision cycles of the same temperament), and id/superego responses in the third. Gammas begin with a critical superego/id in the first response and by the third are using their ego/superid to make use of any practically that was found to be significant. It is where one does the most accepting and creating within the relative social sphere as conditioned by people and events that decides which forms of metabolism are ultimately utilized for interaction, but the quadra values themselves are instilled in the person's own ties to the activity without external influence as the subject is always free to observe and respond as is comfortable for them...

    I have decided to use a new typing scheme which I feel is more relevant:

    Ti-INTj 1ASR / Alpha Anal Static Result
    Ne-INTj 1OSR / Alpha Oral Static Result
    Ne-ENTp 1ASP / Alpha Anal Static Process
    Ti-ENTp 1OSP / Alpha Oral Static Process
    Te-ENTj 3ADR / Gamma Anal Dynamic Result
    Ni-ENTj 3ODR / Gamma Oral Dynamic Result
    Ni-INTp 3ADP / Gamma Anal Dynamic Process
    Te-INTp 3ODP / Gamma Oral Dynamic Process
    Fe-ESFj 1ADR / Alpha Anal DYnamic Result
    Si-ESFj 1ODR / Alpha Oral Dynamic Result
    Si-ISFp 1ADP / Alpha Anal Dynamic Process
    Fe-ISFp 1ODP / Alpha Oral Dynamic Process
    Fi-ISFj 3ASR / Gamma Anal Static Result
    Se-ISFj 3OSR / Gamma Oral Static Result
    Se-ESFp 3ASP / Gamma Anal Static Process
    Fi-ESFp 3OSP / Gamma Oral Static Process
    Ti-ISTj 2ASP / Beta Anal Static Process
    Se-ISTj 2OSP / Beta Oral Static Process
    Se-ESTp 2ASR / Beta Anal Static Result
    Ti-ESTp 2OSR / Beta Oral Static Result
    Te-ESTj 4ADP / Delta Anal Dynamic Process
    Si-ESTj 4ODP / Delta Oral Dynamic Process
    Si-ISTp 4ADR / Delta Anal Dynamic Result
    Te-ISTp 4ODR / Delta Oral Dynamic Result
    Fe-ENFj 2ADP / Beta Anal Dynamic Process
    Ni-ENFj 2ODP / Beta Oral Dynamic Process
    Ni-INFp 2ADR / Beta Anal Dynamic Result
    Fe-INFp 2ODR / Beta Oral Dynamic Result
    Fi-INFj 4ASP / Delta Anal Static Process
    Ne-INFj 4OSP / Delta Oral Static Process
    Ne-ENFp 4ASR / Delta Anal Static Result
    Fi-ENFp 4OSR / Delta Oral Static Result

    *anal perhaps corresponds more to judging than accepting subtype, but I highly doubt it

    For supervision, if you compare the way each dual responds to your functions, you will find that the beneficiary plays the role of the easy parent who can't do much for you but makes you feel better whereas the supervisor plays the harsh parent who helps you grow in the long run:

    benefactor - calms you down, straightens you out
    your mental is their vital - demonstrate deep sentiments
    your accepting is their mobilizing - calms you down
    your creative is their ignoring - doesn't take your crap
    your role is their demonstrative - shows you your mistakes
    your polr is their suggestive - gives advice
    your suggestive is their creative - makes you feel better
    your mobilizing is their role - keeps you from being hasty
    your demonstrating is their accepting - understands your weaknesses
    your ignoring is their PoLR - focused on your perspective

    supervisor - keeps you in line, gets you focused
    your mental is their mental - maintain ready communication
    your accepting is their creative - directs you
    your creative is their role - keeps you on a tight leash
    your role is their PoLR - don't understand your criticisms
    your polr is their accepting - are never hindered by you
    your suggestive is their mobilizing - act on your behalf
    your mobilizing is their ignoring - doesn't take you seriously
    your demonstrating is their suggestive - helps you solve your problems
    your ignoring is their demonstrating - hides their weakness from you
    Last edited by Nexus; 09-01-2009 at 06:38 AM.

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    i see no reason to pull oral / anal into the matter, even if some level of correspondence exists. At the very least you haven't justified it in what you've written. If the subtypes end up entirely correspondent to oral / anal, it's still questionable whether cross referencing paradigms makes sense.

    The qualitative description of quadra attributes is good. The assignment of a starting point to the order of information flow is arbitrary, though. Alpha isn't a starting point, it's just accumulative of information. The information itself is observed in the world. You can choose to filter the information in whichever direction seems best to you. For a gamma type, having a critical eye means not writing something off too quickly; i.e., being aware of possibilities. (lol @ this part).

    Also, a progression of information makes an assumption on the nature of the information; the information is qualitative and measurable. Switching this assumption around (presumably measuring information in waves) could easily have gamma as the accumulation in a cycle, and alpha as the first regression in the cycle.

    Last thing is.. I don't see you as INTp-Ni. Correct me if I'm wrong: This cycle business has led you to that belief? That your critical eye necessarily places you in Gamma?
    INTp

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    The only conclusion that I can draw is that you have to start over from scratch, since you seem totally lost. You've been LSI, LIE, SLE, ILI and your explanations of socionics deviate from what socionics is. How hard can it be... In the beginning everone could determine their type with dichotomies but nowadays there are oral and anal things necessary? I don't see any improvement in that, actually it makes things as confusing as possible.

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    There is legitimacy to the cycle he's describing though, minus the assignment of words to the various parts of the cycle; which as I said is arbitrary, because it depends on how you define the parameters of the cycle. It's the same four step cycle you see in stocks. there is a steady phase, followed by a rise, followed by another steady phase, followed by a decline. Stock analysts use that sort of thing and more to make their predictions. It can all be seen as socionics, though. Part of why I'm interested in trading.
    Maybe a better word for 'anal' would be 'regressive'; and a better word for 'oral' would be 'expansive'?
    Last edited by crazedrat; 09-01-2009 at 12:13 PM.
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    Quadra progression has been around for a long time, although it goes in and out of favor.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli
    I am certain that IM types are consciously or subconsciously chosen, and are promoted by emotional associations with the method.
    Could I ask you to elaborate on this part? (i'm just curious if there's something about the nature/nurture of socionic type to be learned here). Cheers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli
    First I would like to declare that my type is Ni-INTp.
    Your Te always was pretty "extensive" I thought.

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    I prefer static oral to dynamic anal process.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    I prefer static oral to dynamic anal process.
    Yeah. Were the least anal type on the board.
    ISTp
    SLI

    Enneagram 5 with a side of wings.

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    Dynamic oral sounds good to me.

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    Holy fuck, Huitzi. Maybe you are ILI o_0

    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    These quadras process much quicklier and at a faster refresh rate...
    Moonlight will fall
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    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Or maybe he is LSI like he claims in his sig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erk View Post
    Or maybe he is LSI like he claims in his sig.
    Irrelevant!
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    No such thing as Ni. Everyone is Ne.

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    So merry types suffer of precocious oral ejaculation?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I would just like to add that I believe anal/accepting types are more likely to receive benefit/supervision, whereas oral/creative subtypes are more likely to produce it. Also, note that introversion is defined as extroversion-creating, introversion-accepting, whereas extroverts are the opposite; from here it was pretty easy to deduce that I am in fact LIE, possibly oral subtype...

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    i see no reason to pull oral / anal into the matter, even if some level of correspondence exists. At the very least you haven't justified it in what you've written. If the subtypes end up entirely correspondent to oral / anal, it's still questionable whether cross referencing paradigms makes sense.

    The qualitative description of quadra attributes is good. The assignment of a starting point to the order of information flow is arbitrary, though. Alpha isn't a starting point, it's just accumulative of information. The information itself is observed in the world. You can choose to filter the information in whichever direction seems best to you. For a gamma type, having a critical eye means not writing something off too quickly; i.e., being aware of possibilities. (lol @ this part).

    Also, a progression of information makes an assumption on the nature of the information; the information is qualitative and measurable. Switching this assumption around (presumably measuring information in waves) could easily have gamma as the accumulation in a cycle, and alpha as the first regression in the cycle.

    Last thing is.. I don't see you as INTp-Ni. Correct me if I'm wrong: This cycle business has led you to that belief? That your critical eye necessarily places you in Gamma?
    It makes perfect sense that anal types focus more on what they accept and oral types on what they produce. Information follows the direction of process result; result types somewhat randomly create finished products in an unfocused manner while totally unaware of what they are doing, whereas process types will focus their unconscious on one phenomena and become completely involved only in metabolizing it away without ever realizing any particular aspect of their own results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    The only conclusion that I can draw is that you have to start over from scratch, since you seem totally lost. You've been LSI, LIE, SLE, ILI and your explanations of socionics deviate from what socionics is. How hard can it be... In the beginning everone could determine their type with dichotomies but nowadays there are oral and anal things necessary? I don't see any improvement in that, actually it makes things as confusing as possible.
    There is more to the conscious mind than a random distribution of cognitive preferences...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Could I ask you to elaborate on this part? (i'm just curious if there's something about the nature/nurture of socionic type to be learned here). Cheers.

    Your Te always was pretty "extensive" I thought.
    I had believed that fundamental emotional ties to IM associated with the dopamine reward-path and the id were responsible for the higer cognitive order, but I am not entirely sure...however, I do know identical twins that have different types; the truth is, usually people who grew up together had similar personalities because they produced and responded to the same type of information, which was conditioned into their minds. In my family, which is predominantly beta, me and my sister are gammas; I have always been something of a free thinker. I believe that many aspects of VI, such as facial expressions and facial development, might be tied to bloodflow and muscle use adapted in the brain to the types of physiological accommodations that support a particular IM in all habits and activities and on a daily basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Quadra progression has been around for a long time, although it goes in and out of favor.
    I believe that you have overlooked the profundity of this thread; quadra progression is a necessary consequence of the types of cognitive structures that exist in the mind, which mostly exist to accommodate a personal preference with respect to the speed and manner in which new information is integrated. It is the basis for the entrenched ego/superid 'walls' that people put up to accommodate their own id/superego biases that eventually leads to inter-quadra conflicts, as betas and deltas focus on different methods of agency (immediate versus prolonged) and alphas and gammas on different approaches of manifestation (dogmatic versus critical).

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Holy fuck, Huitzi. Maybe you are ILI o_0
    Sorry, I know quicklier is not a word, but I prefer it to quicker.

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    It makes perfect sense that anal types focus more on what they accept and oral types on what they produce.

    You only responded to the first paragraph. And what you said was addressed in that first paragraph. So ignoring that there are two other fronts here, I will make this part more clear to you:
    Whether there is correspondence between anal/oral and the subtype distinction is not important. The only value in bringing the words oral/anal in as descriptors is to limit the distinction of subtype to the paradigm of psychoanalytics.
    There are two problems with doing this.
    1: it is highly probable subtypes can be associated with both psychoanalytics, and much more than psychoanalytics.
    2: it is not entirely established that all aspects of oral/anal are associated with the single discriminatory factor of subtype. Oral/anal could very well be subtype, and much more than subtype.

    You can make an association without overstepping either of those boundaries. But if you're going to make an association, you must phrase it as one. This means you use the regular notation for subtypes, and then state your associations.
    Lastly, even if both the above points were satisfied, and the psychoanalytics vs. subtype distinctions were an identical phenomena in every respect, I would still oppose the mixing of paradigms for purely linguistic reasons. (And if you believe language has any empirical basis at all, you will acknowledge both points I mentioned cannot possibly be satisfied)
    Last edited by crazedrat; 09-04-2009 at 11:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Ti-ISTj 2ASP / Beta Anal Static Process
    Se-ISTj 2OSP / Beta Oral Static Process


    *anal perhaps corresponds more to judging than accepting subtype, but I highly doubt it


    i think this is funny because you identify yourself as possibly an anal type and then you speculate about what anal means but you tack on "but i doubt it" hahahahaha anal much ay? ISTJs don't exactly go with the flow. You gotta be that way if youre going to catch inconsistencies or a crime in progress etc. Gotta resist. Resist and Survive goes one of the beta type sayings.

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    [QUOTE=Huitzilopochtli;558806]I would just like to add that I believe anal/accepting types are more likely to receive benefit/supervision, whereas oral/creative subtypes are more likely to produce it. Also, note that introversion is defined as extroversion-creating, introversion-accepting, whereas extroverts are the opposite; from here it was pretty easy to deduce that I am in fact LIE, possibly oral subtype...


    I think youre likely INTJ, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    I would just like to add that I believe anal/accepting types are more likely to receive benefit/supervision, whereas oral/creative subtypes are more likely to produce it. Also, note that introversion is defined as extroversion-creating, introversion-accepting, whereas extroverts are the opposite; from here it was pretty easy to deduce that I am in fact LIE, possibly oral subtype...

    P.S. Sorry for the choppy replies to one post, but just wanted to say that as an ENFJ I am much more comfortable benefitting than I am being benefitted in response to your oral/creative statements here.

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    for future reference make one post using the edit button
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    for future reference make one post using the edit button
    i supervise you - which means im biting my tongue from ripping you a new asshole right now.
    so for future referance - why dont you find something better to do.

    Lefty
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    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

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    you supervising me doesn't mean i am deeply affected by your bitchathons. when an ENFj hones in on me it means i roll my eyes and try to escape the situation as quickly as possible so that i don't have to listen to them. i realize i cannot reason with an ENFj. I don't even try. I've seen them mad, and they're like toddlers. You can't reason with a toddler.
    The real reason i told you to compile those posts is it makes it easier for me to skip over your meaningless babble if it's all in one post. the brief moment where i comprehend what you've said, after i've read it, spikes a tangible annoyance in me. this is enough of an annoyance for me to ask you to compile your posts into one. that is where my motivation comes from. i know you have troubles organizing things with Si polr, and that's probably why you're sensitive to me telling you to organize things. i think you will find it is very quick and easy to use the edit button.
    Last edited by crazedrat; 09-09-2009 at 07:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    you supervising me doesn't mean i am deeply affected by your bitchathons. when an ENFj hones in on me it means i roll my eyes and try to escape the situation as quickly as possible so that i don't have to listen to them. i realize i cannot reason with an ENFj. I don't even try. I've seen them mad, and they're like toddlers. You can't reason with a toddler.
    The real reason i told you to compile those posts is it makes it easier for me to skip over your meaningless babble if it's all in one post. the brief moment where i comprehend what you've said, after i've read it, spikes a tangible annoyance in me. this is enough of an annoyance for me to ask you to compile your posts into one. that is where my motivation comes from. i know you have troubles organizing things with Si polr, and that's probably why you're sensitive to me telling you to organize things. i think you will find it is very quick and easy to use the edit button.
    no me supervising you means i contains depths you dont and that youre not likely to comprehend either and that all your study of socionics is wasted because youll still try to chastise the type that supervises you. but you know what? you can pointlessly chastise the type that supervises you all you want, because i'm more interested in the topic of the thread than i am in some petty bid for power.

    lefty

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    'all my study of socionics is wasted because i chastise the type that supervises me'.
    no. i dont study socionics to try to transcend my type. i study it to understand other peoples thoughts so that i can manipulate them / avoid unfavorable scenarios.
    the way to transcend your type is through duality, not through compliance with your supervisor. compliance with the supervisor is only enslavement. the real way to achieve duality and transcendence isn't through intellectual realization either; and studying socionics could never provide transcendence. it's through the experience of duality with the world and with people.
    'depths of knowledge i don't understand'. it's annoying you don't realize how circular this is, and that you inflate the statement with choice language.. since everyone supervises another type. every type is aware of something the other types aren't; that's the basis of socionics. supervisor/supervisee relations has to do with values, not higher or lower levels of awareness.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty View Post
    i supervise you - which means im biting my tongue from ripping you a new asshole right now.
    so for future referance - why dont you find something better to do.

    Lefty
    ENFJ
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    Well, you do seem like the oral subtype. Anyway I have been pretty unwavering on LIE lately (probably anal subtype).

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    'all my study of socionics is wasted because i chastise the type that supervises me'.
    no. i dont study socionics to try to transcend my type. i study it to understand other peoples thoughts so that i can manipulate them / avoid unfavorable scenarios.
    the way to transcend your type is through duality, not through compliance with your supervisor. compliance with the supervisor is only enslavement. the real way to achieve duality and transcendence isn't through intellectual realization either; and studying socionics could never provide transcendence. it's through the experience of duality with the world and with people.
    'depths of knowledge i don't understand'. it's annoying you don't realize how circular this is, and that you inflate the statement with choice language.. since everyone supervises another type. every type is aware of something the other types aren't; that's the basis of socionics. supervisor/supervisee relations has to do with values, not higher or lower levels of awareness.
    well i've been accused of using circular logic before and ironically enough by an ISFP which supervises my type - I will say that yeah transcendance comes from duality - so lets focus on what makes us happy ay? truce?

    p.s. i was only annoyed because you were stating what i had already admitted which was that the reply was choppy.

    Thank you for your feedback.

    Lefty - enfj 4w5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Well, you do seem like the oral subtype. Anyway I have been pretty unwavering on LIE lately (probably anal subtype).

    i mean this oral anal stuff is straight up Freudian psychology, right? I'm just asking, because I've heard Freud's psychology is no longer taught and I think it's weird how people are willing to discredit the biological basis for psychology now. I've stated before and you may already realize that Freud's nephew integrated his uncle's theories into marketing and made it very powerful - and I feel like people don't comprehend marketing's pull on them and they should be more aware of it. And I've read some author's like Karen Horney who wrote about neurotics and there are just so many therapists who integrated Freud's ideas into their work I think it's silly if people think Freud isn't relevant anymore. I think the dialetical answer is both Freud and Jung's theories where we recognize that we're composed of a body and and abstract spiritual/mystical influences & uses of symbolism etc.

    Also I hate to sound stupid, but is there any reason why if it is based on Freud that it doesn't include any other of the stages of development i.e. phalic etc Psychosexual development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Also I think your explanation of the differences between benefit and supervision is interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leftylib View Post
    i mean this oral anal stuff is straight up Freudian psychology, right? I'm just asking, because I've heard Freud's psychology is no longer taught and I think it's weird how people are willing to discredit the biological basis for psychology now. I've stated before and you may already realize that Freud's nephew integrated his uncle's theories into marketing and made it very powerful - and I feel like people don't comprehend marketing's pull on them and they should be more aware of it. And I've read some author's like Karen Horney who wrote about neurotics and there are just so many therapists who integrated Freud's ideas into their work I think it's silly if people think Freud isn't relevant anymore. I think the dialetical answer is both Freud and Jung's theories where we recognize that we're composed of a body and and abstract spiritual/mystical influences & uses of symbolism etc.

    Also I hate to sound stupid, but is there any reason why if it is based on Freud that it doesn't include any other of the stages of development i.e. phalic etc Psychosexual development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Also I think your explanation of the differences between benefit and supervision is interesting.
    Thank you. Jung was Freud's pupil, so it is impossible to say that Jung was not highly influenced by Freud, at least initially (thus forming the foundation for his later work whether he agreed with it or not). In humans the anus actually develops before the mouth (see Embryological origins of the mouth and anus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), which makes sense as the embryo absorbs nutrients much as a colony of bacteria from the womb, and disperses the waste like a plant in one direction to reduce the amount of absorption surface area affected by the excrement (in sea creatures, the sea approximates the content of the womb, skin eventually develops and gills/respiratiration, mouths/digestion, and hearts/circulation are used to metabolize and channel nutrients).

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    since you find this so interesting, more on socionics: the functions according to Huitzilopochtli, or self-organization of unconscious IM to supplement communication, especially regarding conscious IM:

    accepting - deals with the most urgent information (used in place of the ignoring function to indicate understanding)

    creating - responds automatically to information processed by accepting (used in place of the demonstrating function to indicate self-sufficiency)

    dual seeking - used to comfort or persuade (used in place of the role function to indicate trust)

    hidden agenda - represents anticipations, desires, lusts, hopes, hypnopompic dreams (used in place of the PoLR function to indicate respect)

    role - summarizes accepting IM without interrupting it and acts as a reflection of the accepting function, is used to make false promises, excuses, and lies; paired with ignoring IM such that the role does not process anything vital to the ego, (used in place of the dual seeking function to indicate uncertainty)

    PoLR - represents IM that is continuously overcompensated indirectly by other conscious functions and never monitored and used to engage in purely disrepsectful behavior especially if used in conjunction with the role; paired with demonstrating IM, which usually represents that accepting IM which is most lacking as it is never accommodated by the PoLR and opposed by the creative function and hidden agenda (used in place of the hidden agenda function to indicate disinterest)

    demonstrating - indicates failure of ego functions, especially with regard to PoLR IM or otherwise with a specific task, usually suppressed but may represent loss of confidence or desire for assistance (used in place of the creating function to indicate frustration)

    ignoring - indicates IM which is monitored but most suppressed from consciousness so as not to interfere with accepting IM, can be used to supplement role function when necessary but otherwise forgotten in favor of DS, may signify mental instability relied upon for conscious IM (used in place of the accepting function to indicate confusion)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    since you find this so interesting, more on socionics: the functions according to Huitzilopochtli, or self-organization of unconscious IM to supplement communication, especially regarding conscious IM:

    accepting - deals with the most urgent information (used in place of the ignoring function to indicate understanding)

    creating - responds automatically to information processed by accepting (used in place of the demonstrating function to indicate self-sufficiency)

    dual seeking - used to comfort or persuade (used in place of the role function to indicate trust)

    hidden agenda - represents anticipations, desires, lusts, hopes, hypnopompic dreams (used in place of the PoLR function to indicate respect)

    role - summarizes accepting IM without interrupting it and acts as a reflection of the accepting function, is used to make false promises, excuses, and lies; paired with ignoring IM such that the role does not process anything vital to the ego, (used in place of the dual seeking function to indicate uncertainty)

    PoLR - represents IM that is continuously overcompensated indirectly by other conscious functions and never monitored and used to engage in purely disrepsectful behavior especially if used in conjunction with the role; paired with demonstrating IM, which usually represents that accepting IM which is most lacking as it is never accommodated by the PoLR and opposed by the creative function and hidden agenda (used in place of the hidden agenda function to indicate disinterest)

    demonstrating - indicates failure of ego functions, especially with regard to PoLR IM or otherwise with a specific task, usually suppressed but may represent loss of confidence or desire for assistance (used in place of the creating function to indicate frustration)

    ignoring - indicates IM which is monitored but most suppressed from consciousness so as not to interfere with accepting IM, can be used to supplement role function when necessary but otherwise forgotten in favor of DS, may signify mental instability relied upon for conscious IM (used in place of the accepting function to indicate confusion)

    i hate to jump around on you, but was just brainstorming and thinking about how time is not incorporated well into socionics it seems like in terms of charting a person's progression through functions or just anything like that, but at least the use of something like oral anal gets time in there as a factor a bit - also i see a major deficit in information about subtypes.

    also were you saying you're an ENTJ? I haven't nailed down those abbreviations. Looking at your picture i do think you look kind of right brained/extroverted, but you have that definite almost computer like capability ive seen strongly in ENTJs to turn into kind of computer mind (thinking of an online engineer friend), but of course intj would share that ,but you seem to be revealing your kind of inner INTP model be - fleshing out the system internally.

    lefty enfj 4w5

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