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Thread: Type subtypes and PoLR

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    Default Type subtypes and PoLR

    Does subtype influence the PoLR?

    Subtype means that I can prefer either the first or the second function of my ego block. (Ego block = first two functions.) I can either have a very strong preference for my first function, or I can be a bit more balanced and have a preference for my first function while also finding my second function quite useful and important.

    That means that I can prefer either the judging or the perceiving function in my ego block. Won't that influence my other functions? Like this, for example?
    • Ne-Fi-Se-Ti-Si-Te-Ni-Fe
      Ne-Fi-Se-Ti-Si-Te-Ni-Fe


    If that is true, then I'd expect first-function subtypes to have a bigger PoLR than second-function subtypes. What do you think? I'm not really sure about this. But it would seem a bit odd if a preference for a judging over a perceiving function (or vice versa) would stop at the ego block.

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    Creepy-

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    I think there was a thread about subtypes affecting dual relationships, I think it would also apply here (to some extent, at least).

    I don't think being a producing subtype will switch your PoLR with your role function or anything but it might change the emphasis.

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    Yes, that's what I meant. Knowing what subtype someone is would then tell you more about how vulnerable he is in his PoLR. So E(N)Tp = HATES and LOATHES and DETESTS Fi; EN(T)p = may tolerate Fi if in a good mood. And E(N)Fp = sucks at Ti, EN(F)p = able to produce some kind of Ti if fed well and kept in an airy spot with plenty of light. That kind of stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
    Yes, that's what I meant. Knowing what subtype someone is would then tell you more about how vulnerable he is in his PoLR. So E(N)Tp = HATES and LOATHES and DETESTS Fi; EN(T)p = may tolerate Fi if in a good mood. And E(N)Fp = sucks at Ti, EN(F)p = able to produce some kind of Ti if fed well and kept in an airy spot with plenty of light. That kind of stuff.
    That sounds really cute for some reason...

    Would it also stand that the accepting subtype was more of a slave to their hidden agenda than the producing subtype?

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    I think that would make me lean towards logical subtype, and I think that could be a possibility. The physical description fits me better (see baby's thread), and it would make more sense of my introversion during childhood. However, the other factors don't really match so well; I may sometimes project an image of seriousness, but only to people who don't know me. Those in my "inner circle" see the goofy, bubbly, outgoing me to a much greater extent, but I think that's true of just about everyone. Is it possible that I'm the logical sub? Hmmm...
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    If I'm getting this right, then the (Ne) subtype would be more in touch with reality, better at generating ideas, bouncier, more dynamic and more easily bored. The (Ti) subtype would be better at doing something with the ideas he generates.

    BTW, the ENTP subtype description seems to agree with my theory. Or rather, my theory seems to agree with the description. Or whatever. Look:

    Logical Subtype: ... Angular in his movements, does not pay attention to external appearance, worries little about his health.
    ...and that seems to say that the logical subtype has a weaker Si than the intuitive subtype. Like this:
    • Ne-Ti-Se-Fi-Si-Fe-Ni-Te

    Unless I'm getting it all wrong, of course.

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    Default How do subtypes affect the PoLR of the type?

    How does subtype affect the rest of the functions in the ego & super-ego block? If, for instance, I am an (base) subtype ISTp, would I also have a more developed and controled role? Would it also make me less sensitive and maybe more neutral to my PoLR?
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    The difference I noticed between subtypes is how they steal 6th function from people. there are other differences but this is what caught my eye. ENTj-T for example seem to do it in pulses, while ENTj-N do it constantly and in a different way. Their bodies seem to be different too.
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    Default Subtypes and the POLR

    Do subtypes effect the way POLR manifest themselves toward types.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Yes

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    Ripped Off! That was only half and answer.

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    Yeah, Ashton once made a good observation that it seems the J sub irrationals and the P sub rationals react counterphobically to their PoLR - directly opposing it while the J sub rationals and P sub irrationals react phobically, choosing to dodge it and run away from it.

    I notice this with myself and Fi - I definitely directly challenge it with Ti and fight it off, while someone like JRiddy I see as trying to get around it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Yeah, Ashton once made a good observation that it seems the J sub irrationals and the P sub rationals react counterphobically to their PoLR - directly opposing it while the J sub rationals and P sub irrationals react phobically, choosing to dodge it and run away from it.

    I notice this with myself and Fi - I definitely directly challenge it with Ti and fight it off, while someone like JRiddy I see as trying to get around it.
    This sounds like aboslute bullshit.

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    I think it makes a lot of sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    This sounds like aboslute bullshit.
    Why?

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    I have a friend also INTJ he is not afraid of confrontation in fact a lot of people do like him.

    Me on the other hand I would rather avoid confrontation it's not worth it for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Why?
    Fair enough as reasonable question. It looks suspiciously like model socioniX which got posted here before with an ensueing stromash. Anyway I remember reading through it and thinking it was flawed or had opportunities to be flawed, although I would need to read it again to see why as it is now a while since I read it and I haven't thought about it too much since :-)

    Perhaps you could explain why J sub irrationals and P sub rationals would act counterphobically and vica versa otherwise? Actually..in this context what is meant by counterphobically and phobically?

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    Yeah, it's bullshit.

    There is nothing Socionics-relevant to be had here.

    HEIL ASHTON!
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Fair enough as reasonable question. It looks suspiciously like model socioniX which got posted here before with an ensueing stromash. Anyway I remember reading through it and thinking it was flawed or had opportunities to be flawed, although I would need to read it again to see why as it is now a while since I read it and I haven't thought about it too much since :-)

    Perhaps you could explain why J sub irrationals and P sub rationals would act counterphobically and vica versa otherwise? Actually..in this context what is meant by counterphobically and phobically?
    Besides being observable in the types, it makes sense from a theoretical perspective. The judging subtypes are focused on the judging axis of information, while the perceiving subtypes the perceiving axis. What happens is that information that directly interferes with one's primary mode or orientation is directly fended off and repelled. In J sub rations, the PoLR function is a perceiving function. Since the J-sub rationals are tuned to the judging axis, the PoLR does not directly interfere wit their mode of orientation but is instead just something that unsettles them that they wish would go away. However with Judging subtype irrationals, their PoLR is a judging function, and this PoLR directly interferes with their primary mode of orientation - it is a direct threat. Therefore it is dealt with by direct opposition.

    You can apply the same logic to the Perceiving subtype irrationals whose PoLR does not directly interfere with the primary mode of orientation and the Perceiving subtype rations whose PoLR does.

    I can explain more later.

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    I believe I just avoid Fe.
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    It's far better to explain it with model A which is what I have done previously. The above two posts is too confusing and with vague terminology imo which can also lead to misleading. I think I see what Ashton is trying to do though, just in a different way than me. What is interesting imo is that the way it is written is to me similar style of explaining and talking that yourself, strrrng and possibly jriddy uses, even dolphin sometimes. Thank you for posting though (seriously-no sarcasm.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Yeah, it's bullshit.

    There is nothing Socionics-relevant to be had here.

    HEIL ASHTON!


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    In other words, from my point of view, producing subtypes get angry when forced to use their polr, while trying to show off their role function. Accepting subtypes neglect both and don't give a damn about them.
    ILE "Searcher"
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    A leading subtype will increase the PoLR function's strength and expression where as a creative subtype will suppress PoLR expression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
    A leading subtype will increase the PoLR function's strength and expression where as a creative subtype will suppress PoLR expression.
    That's it! Take INTjs as an example: : subtypes usually go the gym and become athletes whereas are mild, lazy , social people
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    That's it! Take INTjs as an example: : subtypes usually go the gym and become athletes whereas are mild, lazy , social people
    Not sure that this is true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Not sure that this is true.
    OK, not all of 'em, but if there are INTjs at gyms, they are for sure
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    OK, not all of 'em, but if there are INTjs at gyms, they are for sure
    In order to verify this, one would have to have extensive experiences both with INTjs and at gyms. I simply don't see how you can make this claim with any degree of confidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    whereas are mild, lazy , social people
    Yeah, they would also like to become athletes(or anything else) but they're just too lazy.

    subtype: fantasizes
    subtype: tries to implement the fantasy

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    In order to verify this, one would have to have extensive experiences both with INTjs and at gyms. I simply don't see how you can make this claim with any degree of confidence.
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    Depending on the strength of the subtype, you'll see an INTj-Ti making more of an effort to use Se in his life (although not necessarily succeeding) where as an INTj-Ne will exhibit much less Se and would just prefer to avoid using it all together.

    As to the gym vs lazy comments, I consider myself a balanced LII and I make a strong effort to work out (at least twice a week) but also consider myself lazy--as contradictory as that may sound. I attribute this to a fluctuating or variable HA, although some of it may have to do with my PoLR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
    Depending on the strength of the subtype, you'll see an INTj-Ti making more of an effort to use Se in his life (although not necessarily succeeding) where as an INTj-Ne will exhibit much less Se and would just prefer to avoid using it all together.

    As to the gym vs lazy comments, I consider myself a balanced LII and I make a strong effort to work out (at least twice a week) but also consider myself lazy--as contradictory as that may sound. I attribute this to a fluctuating or variable HA, although some of it may have to do with my PoLR.
    There is a difference between being lazy and extremely lazy. Working now and then is what lazy dudes do. Doing nothing is related to be an extremely lazy person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSV3 View Post
    ...where as an INTj-Ne will exhibit much less Se and would just prefer to avoid using it all together.
    It's because Ne-INTjs are so fascinated with their megalomanic + fantasies which ought to bring them absolute power over the whole world and satisfy their HA. So they think: "I don't need freakin' to be in power, when my carefully elaborates this great idea, I will be the master of the universe. -insert maniacal laughter from movies-".

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    I'm IEE-Ne and much more comfortable about handling Ti things than other Fi-IEE I know.
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    I set my exercise bike to its maximum intensity and I keep riding until I burn 400 Calories I do this 4 times a week.

    I lift Weights 3 times a week a try give all my body parts a good work out.

    When on the bike after only a few minutes I get to desire to stop but I work place my mind some where else.

    But now I couldn't possibly be NE subtype could I that I do all that.

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    Default Subtypes and PoLR

    I've never really subscribed to the sub-type theory and still have my doubts however something happened recently that made me re-think.

    I've had several recent interactions with a junior co-worker who in the sub-type theory would be described as an ISTJ-se.

    Now the is quite obvious as you would expect, in an "i'm going to stand my ground" sort of way. Knowing the theory i'm particularly careful with ISTJ types so as not to offend them as i consider them to be a great asset on any team.

    But what really struck me was the apparent severity in which was absent in this particular individual. I've never seen it lacking to this extent in any ISTJ i've ever worked with before (and i've worked with quite a few).

    I won't describe the situation but she seemed entirely out of her depth in dealing with any sort of ambiguity (which was natural and inevitable in the circumstances) or understanding that there was simply more than one way to skin a cat.

    Assuming subtype theory could this be due to a strong focus on -creative almost canabilizing -PoLR out of existence? Would be interested in any views on this.
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuturututu View Post
    Yes. Se-creative is Ne-PoLR. Given that in strong Se-creative subtypes (ISFj-Se and ISTj-Se) the Se is accentuated it makes sense that Ne is even more PoLRarizing than in ISTj-Tis and ISFj-Fis.
    No, it's the other way round. Ti-ISTjs have extremely weak Ne.

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    Irrationals:

    Dominant subtype - weakened functions are: Creative, PoLR, DS, and Demonstrative
    Creative subtype - weakened functions are: Dominant, Role, HA, and Ignoring

    Rationals:

    Dominant subtype - weakened functions are: Creative, PoLR, HA, and Ignoring
    Creative subtype - weakened functions are: Dominant, Role, DS, and Demonstrative
    Last edited by 717495; 01-24-2010 at 02:24 PM. Reason: typo

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    A type has only 2 elements, basically.

    You know the Base - you also know DS, Ignoring and Role.
    You know the Creative - you also know PoLR, HA and Demonstrative.

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    From what I can tell, what you have there goes for rationals, except I think ignoring and demonstrative need to be switched.

    I also wouldn't say "you know" it, for this pattern, but that the functions are a bit strengthened and you might "know it" a little better than the other subtype. But it doesn't mean you know your PoLR better than your base, for instance, or you know your role better than your creative. Unless you mean something like, it's more conscious usually?

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