What does it mean to Fi/Fe

[Creepy-male]

So I was talking to a friend the other day and we were talking about the types of our friends. He noted I was a Rational (in Kiersey), and that I was much better at thinking than his other friends. He noted he was an Idealist (in Kiersey), and that he was much more advance in feeling than his other friends.

This got me thinking later, how the hell can someone be "advanced" in feeling?

After thinking about it I realized that there are two sides to feeling -- being sensitive to the world emotionally and taking in how you feel things. This is the introverted side of feelings as you are not sharing this externally. Second is developing emotional connections with people, sharing love, pride, hate, or whatever other emotion is there. This is the extroverted side.

What do u think it is to be "advanced" in feeling, and is it possible for a person to have a good mastery of say the introverted side of feeling but not the extroverted. I believe I am very sensitive to experiencing feelings and distinguishing feelings on people and empathizing, but I find it painstakingly hard to connect to people emotionally on the spot since I am soo analytical and intuitive.

[Brilliand]

Advancedness in makes more sense than advancedness in , though both have some sense to them. Advancedness in is about having experience that can be called up as the situation demands - things like, sometimes when you hug an angry person it makes them calm down. Advancedness in is more theoretical in nature, much like is more theoretical than - it comes from having put a great deal of thought into emotions and formed a view of how emotions should be dealt with.

and are not logical in nature, but they have the same situational vs. universal nature that separates from .

In general: Static functions advance, Dynamic functions deal with temporary things.

[Danielle]

I don't know, maybe this might be related: The 5 Levels of the Feeling Function

[Creepy-male]

Advancedness in makes more sense than advancedness in , though both have some sense to them. Advancedness in is about having experience that can be called up as the situation demands - things like, sometimes when you hug an angry person it makes them calm down. Advancedness in is more theoretical in nature, much like is more theoretical than - it comes from having put a great deal of thought into emotions and formed a view of how emotions should be dealt with.

and are not logical in nature, but they have the same situational vs. universal nature that separates from .

In general: Static functions advance, Dynamic functions deal with temporary things.

1) From my understanding people have a PoLR, Place of Least Resistance, I've always viewed this as they are weaker and undeveloped in that function, which is exactly opposite to the function in which they are dominant in (and hence developed). So I've always noticed there is this sort of relation between functions being developed and undeveloped. So shouldn't this imply that in theory, all functions can be considered to have "advancedness" that can be developed.

2) What do u make of what I mentioned about the difference of introverted and extroverted feeling.

That introverted feeling is concerned with being sensitive to the emotions that are invoked within yourself and not obvious to the external world. Its simply your receptivness, openness, and awaress to feelings.

Whereas extroverted feeling is concerned with the connections people have when they are around one another. Its something that would be extremely obvious (if even unconciously obvious) to those around them.

Does this at all Correlate with Fi/Fe in Socionics?

I don't know, maybe this might be related: The 5 Levels of the Feeling Function

VERY interesting, never knew about the 5 stages of feeling. However it would seem to me this entire stage setup is a pathway to greater empathic understanding through feeling. I guess I was speaking less about such a pathway and more just about the mechanics of personality. As in what does it mean to be a "Master at Feeling", I know what it means to be a "Master at Thinking" -- it means to be a brilliant, genius, and profoundly intellectual. What does it mean to be a "Master at Feeling"? From the 5 stages it sounds as though its simply being a master at empathy, not so much in just identifying the way people feel empathically but in the capacity to fully experience their profound feelings on things. And if that is the case then what purpose does that serve in life, is their more value on empathy in life than on intellect? Are one of these types the one with short straw when it comes to life?

Also in term of the 5 stages, I believe I am stuck on 3 to 4, I am aware of my feelings at most times, I can create art to mirror that backdrop, and I attempt to organize experiences in my life based on what I value but I find trouble in relating to other people on a feeling level, to develop intersubjectivity and develop meaningful relationships. I mean I develop relationships but their is a lack of that deeper aspect that is described in stage 4.

[Marie84]

That introverted feeling is concerned with being sensitive to the emotions that are invoked within yourself and not obvious to the external world. Its simply your receptivness, openness, and awaress to feelings.

That's Fe'ish

Whereas extroverted feeling is concerned with the connections people have when they are around one another. Its something that would be extremely obvious (if even unconciously obvious) to those around them.

That's Fi'ish

Does this at all Correlate with Fi/Fe in Socionics?

Not really

[Creepy-male]

Not really

Ok before I attempt to refute what you said, let me make sure I understand something....

Why is Fi called Introverted Feeling? Specifically what is so introverted about it if it is concerned more with interacting with people.

Secondly why is Fe called Extraverted Feeling? Specifically what is so extraverted about it... etc?

[Marie84]

Ok before I attempt to refute what you said, let me make sure I understand something....

How can you refute me if we're using two different typing systems, you MBTI and me Socionics?

Why is Fi called Introverted Feeling? Specifically what is so introverted about it if it is concerned more with interacting with people.

Fi is an evaluating function, it's internal and therefore introverted.'

Relations does not mean having many close bounds, it means the distance between one person and another. Interaction is not even necessary for this either, it can be observed as well.
It is most beneficial when used in a relation but can also be used to provide input for someone else relations.

I guess one way of putting it is, Fi is knowing when you're "stepping on someones toes"

Secondly why is Fe called Extraverted Feeling? Specifically what is so extraverted about it... etc?

It's an exterior function, and thus Extroverted.
It's used when showing, expressing or judging anothers emotional output. It's something that you can see, unlike Fi.
Example from Socionics.org:

positive emotions - happiness, merriment, emotional lift, enthusiasm, laughter, optimism, a good mood, the experience of happiness

negative emotions - grief, melancholy, emotional decrease, depression, weeping, tear, dissatisfaction, pessimism, poor mood, the experience of misfortune.

[Brilliand]

1) From my understanding people have a PoLR, Place of Least Resistance, I've always viewed this as they are weaker and undeveloped in that function, which is exactly opposite to the function in which they are dominant in (and hence developed). So I've always noticed there is this sort of relation between functions being developed and undeveloped. So shouldn't this imply that in theory, all functions can be considered to have "advancedness" that can be developed.

Oh, you're talking about something different. What you're calling "advancedness" is what I would call "strength" - it's how effectively you can make progress in an area. advances in the sense that its "progress" is progress in knowledge, and can be applied broadly; advances are progress in whatever is being dealt with in the time, which probably won't apply elsewhere. Thus, knowledge is both more appropriate for the situation and less useful to remember.

Also, note that being developed in a function often implies being weak in another - it isn't as though you can be strong in all functions. As the user PotatoSpirit described it: Past experience is like speed, function strength is like acceleration. Function strength is not how far you've advanced your functions so far, but how quickly they advance in everyday use.

2) What do u make of what I mentioned about the difference of introverted and extroverted feeling.

That introverted feeling is concerned with being sensitive to the emotions that are invoked within yourself and not obvious to the external world. Its simply your receptivness, openness, and awaress to feelings.

Whereas extroverted feeling is concerned with the connections people have when they are around one another. Its something that would be extremely obvious (if even unconciously obvious) to those around them.

Does this at all Correlate with Fi/Fe in Socionics?

You seem to describe Fi and Fe as strictly "Introverted Feeling" and "Extroverted Feeling" whereas my treatment is closer to (in MBTI terms) "Perceiving Feeling" (FP, or in Socionics IXFj and EXFp) and "Judging Feeling" (FJ, or in Socionics EXFj and IXFp).

Now, specifically - you describe Fi and Fe as things in nature there to be observed; I think of them as thought processes that handle the same material in different ways. Thus, I'd say that either or can handle both the forms of feeling that you describe - but will handle it in a more thought-out, "across-the-board" manner, whereas will handle it on an individual basis, meeting each emotion on its own terms. You can see how causes spending time in thought whereas causes devoting more time to action...

[Creepy-male]

Past experience is like speed, function strength is like acceleration. Function strength is not how far you've advanced your functions so far, but how quickly they advance in everyday use.

I don't want to press this analogy too far, but

Past experience = speed
Function strength = acceleration

so I am guessing the distance of which we are talking about is "progress"

Distance = progress

this means...

the rate at which you make progress is a matter of past experience, check; makes sense.

the rate at which you have past experience then would be acceleration, which is function strength. This doesn't make sense, how can personality shape the rate at which you have experience... everyone is constantly having experiences as time moves by.

Its could be better described by a different physics analogy, but I don't want to get all technical with it.

What you say makes sense though, I just feel as though its not always just that simple.

You seem to describe Fi and Fe as strictly "Introverted Feeling" and "Extroverted Feeling" whereas my treatment is closer to (in MBTI terms) "Perceiving Feeling" (FP, or in Socionics IXFj and EXFp) and "Judging Feeling" (FJ, or in Socionics EXFj and IXFp).

So are you saying Fi and Fe are more comparable to "Perceiving Feeling" and "Judging Feeling" in MBTI than "Introverted Feeling" and "Extroverted Feeling".... but let me guess even then its not an exact correlation?

[Brilliand]

I don't want to press this analogy too far, but

Past experience = speed
Function strength = acceleration

so I am guessing the distance of which we are talking about is "progress"

Distance = progress

this means...

the rate at which you make progress is a matter of past experience, check; makes sense.

the rate at which you have past experience then would be acceleration, which is function strength. This doesn't make sense, how can personality shape the rate at which you have experience... everyone is constantly having experiences as time moves by.

Not the rate at which you have experiences, but the rate at which you process them into meaningful knowledge. "Past experience" only builds up at the rate that your functions accumulate it as you have experiences - we experience reality through the screen of our personality. Anything that you can't process is lost.

So are you saying Fi and Fe are more comparable to "Perceiving Feeling" and "Judging Feeling" in MBTI than "Introverted Feeling" and "Extroverted Feeling".... but let me guess even then its not an exact correlation?

Actually, I don't even know what the MBTI descriptions are for Perceiving/Judging. I bring it up because in terms of where the functions are said to go in the types, it matches up with Socionics' Static/Dynamic, which is the main thing that I use to understand the functions nowadays.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Brilliand]

Extroverted = known V
Introverted = unknown V
Dynamic = known A
Static = unknown A
External = known D
Internal = unknown D

Interesting... but I'd be happier trying to apply these to function positions. Known/unknown seems like an aspect of competence, moreso than a type of information or a strategy for handling it.

As functions, yes. As Information Elements, no. IEs are parts of reality, therefore "things".

Hmm... I view and in their objective forms (that is, existing apart from a person) as two different states of Feeling - one where the Feeling is relatively predictable (and need not be expressed), and one where it is in continuous motion (and must be constantly expressed to stay in motion). That is, they can't exist together and independently, although you can have something that's halfway between them. The parts of reality are the four element types (or three, I'm not sure how Intuition is part of reality except as part of human communication), each of which can be in a form preferring in either 'attitude'. Likewise, in the mind, each of the four element types is strong/weak and inert/contact, and has a preference for one or the other 'attitude'.

OK, yes, the elements can be part of reality; I had forgotten that interpretation.

[Waddlesworth]

What do u think it is to be "advanced" in feeling, and is it possible for a person to have a good mastery of say the introverted side of feeling but not the extroverted. I believe I am very sensitive to experiencing feelings and distinguishing feelings on people and empathizing, but I find it painstakingly hard to connect to people emotionally on the spot since I am soo analytical and intuitive.

When a person is extroverted feeling their introverted feeling is extroverted.

"Why do you do this to yourself!? why do you keep doing this to yourself!"

"Because that's what I want!"

"Don't you see, you are destroying yourself! This is not what you want! This is what the world expects of you!"

"Yes, exactly! That is what I want!"

As you can see, the argument goes nowhere. There is no advance on either front. Stalemate.

[Creepy-male]

When a person is extroverted feeling their introverted feeling is extroverted.

"Why do you do this to yourself!? why do you keep doing this to yourself!"

"Because that's what I want!"

"Don't you see, you are destroying yourself! This is not what you want! This is what the world expects of you!"

"Yes, exactly! That is what I want!"

As you can see, the argument goes nowhere. There is no advance on either front. Stalemate.

Lol I am sorry I don't understand the point of your little imaginary conversation, could you please clarify?

The only thing I took away from your imaginary conversation is its a debate between two people; one is on the side of saying "I really want to do this and nothing you say is going to change my mind", the other is on the side of saying "Don't do this because its not about what you want its about what is expected of you". You say this goes nowhere, but to me its would seem to go here.... "Is it ever possible to reconcile the expectations of society with the desires of the individual?" and personally my believe is yes, and I have that believe because if that were not the answer people would simply be fated to lonliness or complete destruction, and if that is the case, well then it doesn't really matter if I am wrong because everything will end up destroyed and everyone will end up lonely.

Anyways thats what I took away from the little imaginary conversation, but I don't understand how it addresses the point at hand which is... "Extroverted vs Introverted Feeling and/or Fi vs Fe"

[Waddlesworth]

Lol I am sorry I don't understand the point of your little imaginary conversation, could you please clarify?

The only thing I took away from your imaginary conversation is its a debate between two people; one is on the side of saying "I really want to do this and nothing you say is going to change my mind", the other is on the side of saying "Don't do this because its not about what you want its about what is expected of you". You say this goes nowhere, but to me its would seem to go here.... "Is it ever possible to reconcile the expectations of society with the desires of the individual?" and personally my believe is yes, and I have that believe because if that were not the answer people would simply be fated to lonliness or complete destruction, and if that is the case, well then it doesn't really matter if I am wrong because everything will end up destroyed and everyone will end up lonely.

Anyways thats what I took away from the little imaginary conversation, but I don't understand how it addresses the point at hand which is... "Extroverted vs Introverted Feeling and/or Fi vs Fe"

I was illustrating the difference between the introverted feeling and the extroverted feeling. The conversation/argument precisely addresses "Extroverted vs Introverted Feeling" though I was deliberately being covert about that.

Extroverted feeling wants what everyone else wants.
Introverted feelings wants what only the individual wants.

We are all unique, but we are also the same as everyone else. The quarrel is within.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Waddlesworth]

Poor translations and ignorance have made socionics inaccessible and mysterious. It has become a dumping ground for half-baked, dead-end intellectualism. I try to go strictly by-the-book when I post here.

[Creepy-male]

I was illustrating the difference between the introverted feeling and the extroverted feeling. The conversation/argument precisely addresses "Extroverted vs Introverted Feeling" though I was deliberately being covert about that.

Extroverted feeling wants what everyone else wants.
Introverted feelings wants what only the individual wants.

We are all unique, but we are also the same as everyone else. The quarrel is within.

K thats what I figured but it wasn't particularly obviously, especially how you said this goes nowhere...

Also more fundamental there must be a bridge between both traits - since there must be reconcilation between the desires of the community and person, and that bridge could give clues as to how the two different areas of model A work together.

But anyways I agree with what you said about socionics... it seems much more technical than MBTI or Kiersey and that gives it a lot of room for error.... there is alot of room for error in MBTI even (due to human stupidity). There is a lot of room for error from the truth in any theory or scientific model. So add all those errors up and your pretty much left with half truth, quarter truths, or maybe pure bull. But I am not point fingers at anyone here.

[Creepy-male]

Also @ marie....

I assume you suggested to move this, but at any rate it doesn't bother me, can we lay our dispute to rest now that its in its proper place?