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Thread: EII-LIE semi-duality relations (INFj and ENTj)

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    Default EII-LIE semi-duality relations (INFj and ENTj)

    What goes wrong with partial duality? Anybody have any experience? Or help explain it from a theoretical standpoint? What's happening that makes these relationships less fulfilling than duality? And is it necessarily fatal?

    ENTjs are just so reasonable, ambitious, always trying to improve, savvy and capable leaders, strong, somewhat off-beat and quirky (just deliciously enough), fair, and they explain things so well.

    I've never known one well though, only from afar. The one flaw is they can get prejudiced against someone (saw this happen tragically between an ENTj and an ESFj), and maybe a little power-mad sometimes and not relaxed enough.
    Last edited by Danielle; 08-08-2009 at 10:07 AM.
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    Yeah, I have an INFj-Fi friend (girl) the sister of a friend of mine. I don't see what would not work with her, except very minor things. Like, when we're just hanging out we can have a lot of fun and I've never had a misunderstanding with her, she's really positive and a nice person overall. I remember though when we were trying to set up a tent toghether we had some trouble trying to understand each other in terms of "practical" setting. In the end I just did it myself (this is how an ESTj would have acted, I think ? Just taking over the task). But I don't think this kind of stuff could hinder a romantic relationship, only perhaps a business partnership.

    Obviously an excessively Ni ENTj would be more problematic, since they'd likely expect some more initiative from their duals, and the lack of practicality might get exacerbated.
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    It's to do with how the irrational elements mark out territory, and deal with sharing it.

    Two Intuiters will repeatedly not do as the other says, because both think they're right or justified, and that the other is wrong--or maybe they'll just constantly be not communicating due to reinterpreting what the other says. This is why Intuiters handle "establishing resonance with the other person's ideas and values." (Socionics: Dual Relations, Duality, and Dualization)

    Similarly, two Sensers will crowd out the other in terms of physical space.

    This is what I've gathered from reading, and guessing from people I've talked to have been involved in illusory and semi-dual relationships (an SEE and an SLI, and an LII and EIE).

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    I've never dated a semi-dual, but the problem from being friends before with an ILE, is (ok, i'm not stating anything new, heh) is the HA functions.

    I found that although I got on well with the ILE, there was always a certain amount of distance which was hard to explain. For me it seemed as though I couldn't quite get a stable level of connection (Fi related), although we were friends, sometimes the distance in terms of emotional closeness was a bit unpredictable for me. We could get on well but then it was as if she kept varying so I didn't know how much to discuss things of what I saw was of personal depth.

    I should probably elaborate more, we worked in a small team and she was my supervisor (although never acted like a manager with me at all, in terms of telling me what to do, authority and such).

    I remember on a night out that there had been a few drinks consumed and she came on to me. I found this a bit unsettling as she was married and backed off. Of course it could be that she was just playing around, looking for Fe or something, as in not take it so seriously and wasn't intending to actually see it through, so maybe my thoughts of things from an interpersonal level - ie you're married, what are you doing? Or not understanding the setting of our friendship/relationship, and her not seeing the point in understanding that from a static POV (Fe over Fi).

    Maybe it would be different if we hadn't worked together, as it's in the back of my mind that these sort of things could lead to problems when you need to continue working with someone, the gossip and stuff.

    I remember having an ILE lecturer and I loved the way he'd constantly bounce ideas about, I got into some great discussions with him and afterwards it was kinda cool to have my head spining with these new chains of thought. I've thought that ILE men tend to get more animated with their ideas than female ILE's.

    Dunno. Maybe i'm rambling a little.

    I suppose I could try and post later/better when i'm not hung over, I think it was a good night last night (although what i'm referring to above didn't happen last night, lol).

    Edit: Oh yeah, LIE-EII, there's the Gulenko sexual attitudes to consider also, where one is victim and one is infantile, and the victim would be looking for an aggressor etc..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danielle View Post
    What goes wrong with partial duality? Anybody have any experience? Or help explain it from a theoretical standpoint? What's happening that makes these relationships less fulfilling than duality? And is it necessarily fatal?

    ENTjs are just so reasonable, ambitious, always trying to improve, savvy and capable leaders, strong, somewhat off-beat and quirky (just deliciously enough), fair, and they explain things so well.
    Somebody's got the hots for an LIE, mhm?

    I've never known one well though, only from afar. The one flaw is they can get prejudiced against someone (saw this happen tragically between an ENTj and an ESFj), and maybe a little power-mad sometimes and not relaxed enough.
    Yeah, just be careful. That "worshipful" nature that Diana mentions can sometimes turn into idealization. Especially with LIEs or people who are obviously "power-mad" is that you don't know them until you see their weaknesses and flaws fully; putting on an image is easy to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    It's probably for exactly the reasons you list. EIIs tend to have a sort of "worshipful" attitude, which I doubt LIES would appreciate much. And LIEs Se+Fi bent, rather than Ne+Fi and lack of Si, is what would bother the EIIs. I'm sure those things need not be fatal though, and you could probably have a quite goood semi-dual relationship.
    Mhm. The matters of conflict would be along gamma/delta differences - Se vs Si, and Ni vs Ne. Diana's disdain for Ne/Si relationships is pretty clear, heh, and I'm sure that carries over into LIE EII somehow. I wonder who would feel worse - I suspect the EII somewhat. LIE's can enjoy the attention or being thought much of, but, I wonder if the EII would feel like there is not active caring or catering to, which is what a caregiver might do.

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    Not sure what you mean by "worshipful nature", and no I don't have the hots for anybody and haven't for years (which may be why I have no idea what this "worshipful nature" would look like, since I am rarely attracted to anyone and I rarely spend much time admiring anyone). It's just that on paper, LIE is more attractive intellectually than LSE. A "hard-working grounded type" sounds alright I guess, but doesn't get my fires going like someone who is intellectual and curious. And it seems that a lot of what LSEs are said to need comes from Fi, which LIEs need also. I don't know what LSEs supposedly get out of Ne or the combination of Fi-Ne. I think I have a hard time even noticing LSEs at all.

    It does seem that there might be a certain restlessness on the other side (I am pretty loyal). I've been dumped by an ILI-Te before, and should be wary of these ego-types by now. I never solved the mystery of what he needed that I couldn't give (since I thought I gave him everything I had) and I haven't been interested in anyone since then (except for another ILI but I was sufficiently wary by then not to go for the same thing). But that was also the most I've ever been into anyone before and still my best relationship for the year or so it lasted. So that's a few years now that I've been out of the dating pool altogether, and I'm not excited enough by the people in my quadra to jump back in. Most of my friends are Gammas anyway. The relations are definitely difficult but the challenge keeps me interested. Even online, I tend to pay far more attention to what the LIEs and ILIs say than I do to what the STs in my quadra have to say.

    Maybe it's all in what your dual does rather than says, and since I have little experience with my dual I don't know these wonders. I've had several long friendships with SLIs and I don't remember them doing anything for me other than being comfortable people to hang around and easy to talk to. No one helps me out in practical ways; I have had to be very independent as far as that goes. So maybe I don't yet see the value of it because I have had to struggle along by myself.
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    Though I have not been in a relationship with an LIE, I have several of them as friends.

    Our interactions are incredibly easy and there is instant chemistry. Indeed we can talk about various topics of any nature, though they are commonly personal and private or general commentary on society, morality and such. There aren't any real problems in that sense.

    Something that I do find somewhat exhausting at times is related to their victim romantic persona. There are times when I have to somewhat 'force' them to realize that I still care for them by taking various actions. I think this is related to their Se-hidden agenda coupled with an Fi-dual seeking. This okay for me to do from time to time, but this can get tiring. Not that EIIs don't show that they care through actions, we do, but it does not have to be done as frequently with Si + Te types as with Ni + Te types, in my experience. Also, I think my somewhat clumsy nature can annoy them a bit. They sometimes expect me to be somewhat of a "goddess" in a way, aware of my surroundings, quick to take action when necessary and as sure as a person can be about themselves.

    What they are not receptive from me from time to time is my suggestions of how to "improve" them (Fi + Ne). If that makes any sense. Where with Si + Te types, they happily consider and sometimes take in my suggestions for self-improvement, Ni + Te usually have a clear idea about that kind of thing so find our help in those matters unnecessary.

    As to whether it is fatal: no, I don't think it is. I'm rather idealistic and feel that a bond between two people transcends type.

    And I too am curious as to what exactly is meant by "worshipful nature".
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    By the way, if you're a really Fi INFj, and the other party is a Te ENTj...we are discussing about nothing, since it's basically duality. The differences become more marked when there's a big fork (INFj-Ne and ENTj-Ni seems quite incompatible on the long term). Of what's been metioned, the only real issue is, in my opinion:

    What they are not receptive from me from time to time is my suggestions of how to "improve" them (Fi + Ne). If that makes any sense. Where with Si + Te types, they happily consider and sometimes take in my suggestions for self-improvement, Ni + Te usually have a clear idea about that kind of thing so find our help in those matters unnecessary.
    Yeah, this is true, I know how I'd like to improve myself, and while I wouldn't disregard suggestions, I also wouldn't consider them as something necessary/worth of attention. Obviously this is different if they're coming from a significant other.

    Anyway, Danielle. I know some intellectually curious ISTps and ESTjs. They often are intellectually curious about slightly different topics than NTs, but they still are. However, often they have to be "prodded" about their opinions, since they're sensors they might not feel confident in speaking about them if they don't know you're interested.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danielle View Post
    What goes wrong with partial duality? Anybody have any experience? Or help explain it from a theoretical standpoint? What's happening that makes these relationships less fulfilling than duality? And is it necessarily fatal?
    Both your dual and your semi-dual have your dual seeking function as their base function.

    For example: An EII has dual seeking. Your dual, LSE and your semi-dual, LIE both have base.

    Where they differ is related to how well they can fulfill your hidden agenda. With duals, your hidden agenda is their creative function. With semi-duals though, your hidden agenda is their PoLR! So don't count on much help from your semi-dual in fulfilling your hidden agenda. I think this is the one the main reasons for the frustration that sometimes occurs with semi-dual relations.

    As an EII, your hidden agenda is . LSE has creative, so they will be good at satisfying your hidden agenda. LIE has PoLR.


    Your dual will always be in your quadra. Your semi dual will always be in a neighboring quadra, and will only share half of your quadra values. EII and LSE are both delta, but LIE is gamma. EII and LIE both value and but EII values and while LIE values and . The difference in quadra values can lead to misunderstandings.

    I don't think a semi-duality relationship automatically spells disaster. It's probably not going to be as satisfying in the long run as duality but I do think overall, its not a bad relation. Your semi-dual will satisfy your dual seeking function, and that is important. I know several people who have experienced satisfying relations with their semi-dual.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    It really doesn't seem like a match that would be too problematic. Thus bringing my personal total of workable matches to 8 out of 16 types! Good information to file away for future friendships and prospective romantic interludes.

    At the same time, I have thought more about the LIE-ESI duality and it really seems like a strong, inspirational pairing. I am now somewhat reluctant to interfere with that. I don't know why it's harder for me to feel that way about my own dual. I have been in a romantic relationship with an ISTp, and the best I would say is that he was very responsive to me, which is unusual for me to experience. I also had an ISTp for a best (female) friend. Again, very chill, very easy to be engaged and spend a lot of time together.

    But I still don't really know what these types need me for (and thus am unexcited by the prospect), whereas I know what the ILIs get out of me, and what they give in return is excitement and purpose for me. So when I think about the rational, extroverted versions of these same ego-types, I figure it will be more of the same yet amplified. ESTjs in particular seem very capable and don't have the tinge of insecurity that irrationals have, and ENTjs are also rational yet they have the bit of quirk that turns something on inside of me.

    warriorliibrarian: I don't really know what that means in real-life terms. My hidden agenda is introverted sensing, soo? It's not getting fulfilled now and I just have to make do. So what difference does it make? What would actually be missing?
    Last edited by Danielle; 08-09-2009 at 08:08 AM. Reason: edited to answer warriorliibrarian
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    whereas I know what the ILIs get out of me, and what they give in return is excitement and purpose for me.
    (Oh, pleasepleaseplease don't accidentally marry an ILI. My parents are ILI-EII, and I've never seen people so unfulfilled. It won't set in immediately, but believe me, after 40 years it's obvious there's a huge disjoint in what they really want in a person. It's so unbalanced. Every.single.day. it's like they're both looking at each other wondering "Why don't you understand me? Why can't you be somebody else?" They love each other very much, but you can clearly see that they are missing and wanting a great deal that they'll never have. UGH. Okay, I'm done now.)
    IEE

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Anyway, Danielle. I know some intellectually curious ISTps and ESTjs. They often are intellectually curious about slightly different topics than NTs, but they still are. However, often they have to be "prodded" about their opinions, since they're sensors they might not feel confident in speaking about them if they don't know you're interested.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danielle View Post
    It really doesn't seem like a match that would be too problematic. Thus bringing my personal total of workable matches to 8 out of 16 types! Good information to file away for future friendships and prospective romantic interludes.

    Or, is that said kind of light-heartedly?

    At the same time, I have thought more about the LIE-ESI duality and it really seems like a strong, inspirational pairing. I am now somewhat reluctant to interfere with that. I don't know why it's harder for me to feel that way about my own dual. I have been in a romantic relationship with an ISTp, and the best I would say is that he was very responsive to me, which is unusual for me to experience. I also had an ISTp for a best (female) friend. Again, very chill, very easy to be engaged and spend a lot of time together.

    But I still don't really know what these types need me for (and thus am unexcited by the prospect), whereas I know what the ILIs get out of me, and what they give in return is excitement and purpose for me. So when I think about the rational, extroverted versions of these same ego-types, I figure it will be more of the same yet amplified. ESTjs in particular seem very capable and don't have the tinge of insecurity that irrationals have, and ENTjs are also rational yet they have the bit of quirk that turns something on inside of me.
    Don't take this the wrong way, but, you seem to be dealing with idealized versions/visions of "types", and I caution you about seeing "types" instead of people. Although this comment is somewhat related to what I wrote earlier in this post.



    Also, I think especially if you haven't been around a dual much in the past, it can take awhile for them to grow on you. You might not feel instant attraction or chemistry, but you do start learning that they fill a unique part in your life, and sort of quietly become an inseparable part of you (obviously not all duals!! just when everything else works with a particular one dual in a close relationship).
    Yes

    IOW, socionics isn't the be-all end-all to human relationships, and shouldn't be, but it does explain how things often play out, pointing out where there are predictable and noticible patterns.
    Yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Also, I think especially if you haven't been around a dual much in the past, it can take awhile for them to grow on you. You might not feel instant attraction or chemistry, but you do start learning that they fill a unique part in your life, and sort of quietly become an inseparable part of you (obviously not all duals!! just when everything else works with a particular one dual in a close relationship).
    The way I see it, holding out for a dual would mean not seeing people for who they are, but waiting on some perfect type, and then having to find a way to fit the type to the person. Waiting for the particular one dual with whom everything works is suspiciously like waiting for a "soulmate", which is something I find limiting and damaging. So I am trying to expand my personal options while learning more about a specific intertype relation. There hasn't been much discussion about partial duality and what it means.

    The majority of my family growing up was not in my quadra, and the "flaws" they saw in me were related to type, but they just accept that it's how I am, that it's just me, and there's nothing they can do about it. That's how you get along with any non-quadra person (quadra people too, but not in socionic ways) by learning how they are, and they learn how you are, and you both do your best to deal with each other as you are.
    I agree with this. None of my family and only two of the friends I've ever had have been in my quadra. And those weren't my best friendships. I think the challenge can make things more interesting, and it also pushes me to grow. On the other hand, perhaps being around people with whom one is naturally comfortable in one's strengths could help an individual grow in unanticipated ways.

    IOW, socionics isn't the be-all end-all to human relationships, and shouldn't be, but it does explain how things often play out, pointing out where there are predictable and noticible patterns.
    Socionics just puts names to patterns you can see even if you never heard of Socionics. The best thing is that it can help a person to be less prejudiced when they understand the source of a conflict, but I'm wary to use it to limit options in any way.

    The "worshipful" nature I mentioned is really an extension of that Fi paired with Ne. I find that delta NFs, and EIIs in particular often express those functions (though not always) through an accentuation of the positive in other people. Being able to look at a person's good qualities and see them in a clear, and enhanced way, with open admiration. Also, to find even in some of the worst rascals, something that redeems him or her, something worthwhile.
    That's interesting and true. What's even more interesting is the "worshipful" aspect of this, and why that would annoy an ENTj. Well, I don't know, and obviously it doesn't seem worshipful to me. Maybe too positive and encouraging, which doesn't provide the right push that they need. That was one source of the problems in my relationship with the ILI-Te. The other was that I wasn't exciting and sensual enough, I don't think. He left me for someone a lot more exciting, outgoing, and demanding (with my encouragement and even my assistance in helping him to woo her).

    But WHY would this be of benefit to LSEs? That's what I don't get at all. If this is part of the nature of EIIs (and I can identify it as being part of my nature), what need would that fulfill in my dual? It just seems to be something people take from me, while also being one of the ways I naturally interact with people. So it works out for both parties that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiny_dancer View Post
    (Oh, pleasepleaseplease don't accidentally marry an ILI. My parents are ILI-EII, and I've never seen people so unfulfilled. It won't set in immediately, but believe me, after 40 years it's obvious there's a huge disjoint in what they really want in a person. It's so unbalanced. Every.single.day. it's like they're both looking at each other wondering "Why don't you understand me? Why can't you be somebody else?" They love each other very much, but you can clearly see that they are missing and wanting a great deal that they'll never have. UGH. Okay, I'm done now.)
    But they've been married 40 years and they love each other! LOL, I see what you're saying. I wouldn't necessarily encourage a relationship like my parents have either (SEE-SEI, extinguishment), even though they love each other and they're still together (and seem in a good enough place right now).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post

    Or, is that said kind of light-heartedly?
    Everything I say is said kind of light-heartedly, if that is what the other person needs to hear. Not sure what the problem is with that statement. Any type that values either Fi or Ne is going to be potentially attracted to me (and attract me). I am just expanding my options as much as possible.

    Don't take this the wrong way, but, you seem to be dealing with idealized versions/visions of "types", and I caution you about seeing "types" instead of people. Although this comment is somewhat related to what I wrote earlier in this post.
    Hmm, not sure what else we have to work with on a message board about a quasi-theoretical model of psychological type. I take people for who and what they are. But we're not talking about people as they completely are. Just aspects of interactions with them that may fit into a predictable pattern.
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    I think that a lot of interaction with people from other quadras (or actually with non-duals, so 15/16 types) can allow one to better cultivate their weaknesses (even the non-valued ones) as everyone tries to mold you into their dual. So it challenges weaknesses and it does enable growth and it can maybe make one a more well-rounded person and better able to interact with the world at large.

    The interesting thing about duality is that it does not really "challenge" any of ones weaknesses but instead challenges their strengths. It supposedly enables one to further focus on and develop their own strengths (particularly the ego block, though possibly the super-id by presenting reinforcement for those elements). Duals supposedly zero in on each other through recognition of the other's 'complimentary valued strengths'. So the more you develop your weaknesses, particularly the non-valued ones, the more you won't see your dual pop out of the crowd and the more they won't see you. (theoretically)

    So it's kind of a difference between vertical growth and horizontal growth. Vertical growth enables you to enhance all of your strengths in a way where you become increasingly strong in who/what you are and just become more and more yourself (I think I'm more and more preferring the idea of this kind of growth). Horizontal growth doesn't really detract from who one is, but is more about covering the widest distance (rather than reaching the greatest height) by tapping all of ones potentials in every area as much as they will tap. Things can be discovered this way that perhaps would have never been seen on the more 'narrow' path of vertical growth. I see duality as challenging one to grow 'vertically' and everything else as challenging one to expand themselves in every direction, but never in the straight arrow. I'm not sure what the psychological implications are... I think in some way we really can be whatever we want to be... but then the question is... why.

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    Semi-duality is good overall because you're getting what you need from each other, but you have something in common, too. Your creative function is their 8th function (which is fun to indulge in at times) and vice versa. The problem is that the hidden agenda isn't met. There's no one there to handle Si and Se stuff.

    If I had to choose, I'd rather be with a semi-dual than a mirror, identical, or probably even activity (even though I'm often attracted to them). The temperament is right and they meet your dual seeking needs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    The "worshipful" nature I mentioned is really an extension of that Fi paired with Ne. I find that delta NFs, and EIIs in particular often express those functions (though not always) through an accentuation of the positive in other people. Being able to look at a person's good qualities and see them in a clear, and enhanced way, with open admiration. Also, to find even in some of the worst rascals, something that redeems him or her, something worthwhile. It's different from the beta NF acceptance of people, in that theirs is a sort of cynical acceptance, seeing people as rascals, and just taking them as they are. Delta NFs can see good in people, and see potential for change of the not so good. I sure hope I explained what I meant okay. And again, it's just one way that FiNe can show up, not the only way, though I think it's fairly common.
    To be able to see the potential for change of the "not so good", one has to have a pretty keen insight of the flaws and shortcomings of an individual. And, in general, Delta NFs have a clear idea of good and bad in a person. Where as some people choose to deal with the bad by pointing it out, I guess Delta NFs choose to deal with the bad by realizing the potential for good.

    I'm a little stuck on your use of terminology: "worshipful" is a bit of an exaggeration of what you just described. I think "naive optimism" is more accurate (I'm assuming you see this characteristic in EIIs as a double-edged sword).
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    I agree with this. None of my family and only two of the friends I've ever had have been in my quadra. And those weren't my best friendships.
    idem or almost. SLI uncle, ILI best friend.

    Personnally, I have a close LIE female friend. We can laugh and joke all day without getting tired of each other. But we keep a relatively long distance between us. Our ways of living would clash pretty quickly.
    I think she doesn't find me exciting enough in that I'm not a daring person on my own. She says I like my little comfort too much. Maybe.

    Have met another LIE via a SEE. The same but he's less extraverted. Great time but when things have to be done, we're not in sync. When I suggest one way to do things, he discards it almost immediately and goes solo.

    Overall, I observe many, maaaany BIG ethical mistakes from them (from the 3 I actually know) and unlike LSEs who would at least listen to me, they don't care of what I say.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Linalee View Post
    The Greeter, are you french ?
    No. Though I am a fan of a certain French artist.
    Ceci n'est pas une eii.




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    btw, I think semi-duals are generally not as attractive to each other as duals are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    btw, I think semi-duals are generally not as attractive to each other as duals are.
    Not so. They're probably more attractive than your dual due to more similarity based around a shared dichotomy. That dichotomy is also where I understand conflicts to arise, in a broad sense.

    Both LXEs are endearingly awkward, but LIEs are weirdly cerebral. Both SXIs are warm individuals, but SEIs start off actually opening up to you. etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    Not so. They're probably more attractive than your dual due to more similarity based around a shared dichotomy. That dichotomy is also where I understand conflicts to arise, in a broad sense.

    Both LXEs are endearingly awkward, but LIEs are weirdly cerebral. Both SXIs are warm individuals, but SEIs start off actually opening up to you. etc.
    I said it based on EII guys I've known irl and the response of a female EII friend to LIE males.

    I see EII's as kind and reliable and whanot, but they're missing a certain "hardness" and vitality that Se creatives have.

    She seems to see LIE's as mousy. She's compared them to muppets, lol. Says they don't have a certain type of "manliness" to them that LSE's do.
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    guys guys guys, duality is ALWAYS BETTER than semi-duality (other things being equal). That doesn't mean semi-duality can't work! But don't try to talk yourself into thinking that semi-duality is as good as duality. It's not.

    My mom and dad are semi-duals (I used to think my mom was EII but I'm now pretty sure she's IEE and my dad is SEI). They're happily married but it's not blissful. My dad enjoys my mom's Ne but she's looking for Te and he doesn't have any, nor does he value it. Quadra values are different with semi-duals. And make no mistake, 40 years is a long time for ANY types.
    Last edited by redbaron; 10-27-2009 at 03:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    It's easy to be happy in the beginning...
    Indeed.

    Duality... it makes life a lot easier... not the most exciting thing in the world though. Drama is exciting, but duality is so easy that it lacks drama. (At least that's the case with LIE/ESI duality.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Indeed.

    Duality... it makes life a lot easier... not the most exciting thing in the world though. Drama is exciting, but duality is so easy that it lacks drama. (At least that's the case with LIE/ESI duality.)
    yeah. but ultimately, life throws enough drama at you that you don't really need it in your relationship. Boredom, yeah I could see that in any relationship. But the extreme comfort of being yourself and having the other person need who you are naturally shouldn't be under-rated when looking at a lifetime together.
    Last edited by redbaron; 10-27-2009 at 03:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    btw, I think semi-duals are generally not as attractive to each other as duals are.
    This might be true for some pairings but not all. I think initially, I find SEIs more attractive because of their warmth.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    I think semi-duals appear more attractive, to me at least. There's something different about them, and that can be attractive. I mean obviously I think so or I wouldn't have started this thread. For me, it's the combination of intuitive energy and dispassionate demeanor.

    However, I have learned that a lot of what's great about duality can only be discovered through exposure to your dual. It can't be described, but once experienced, it is pretty awesome.
    EII
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akra View Post
    Hmm. I'd very like to know what kind of guy is her "type" from a non-Socionics perspective.
    She's said she likes Jack from Lost if that gives you any idea of her tastes?

    Si egos (especially the Si creatives)just have a certain... earthiness/manliness/womanliness/down-to-earth sensuality that other types do not. That's just my perception though. (I am not at ALL attracted to this, btw. I actually find it a bit unsettling.)

    My tastes run so much towards the feminine (for males or females), so perhaps semi-duality would work for me. I never really think to myself "gee, I wish I had someone" unless I'm sick and wanting to be taken care of--the rest of the time I manage to be fairly independant (if inefficient/ineffective) about -related things and having a relationship, in general.
    I think people are usually much more capable of using their hidden agenda than they are their 5th function. They just need someone who will encourage them in the right direction with it. Duals do that nicely because we expect people to use our 2nd function to SOME extent. We don't mind helping out with it, but we don't want to be totally responsible for it for another person. And we're likely to encourage it when we see it in others.

    And what kind of hardness/vitality are you thinking of, if you don't mind expanding on this?
    I'm not sure I can properly articulate it. If you see a definite Ne creative next to a definite Se creative, you just know. Se creatives are more decisive and harsh. Ne creatives are more soft.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Si egos (especially the Si creatives)just have a certain... earthiness/manliness/womanliness/down-to-earth sensuality that other types do not.

    That's just my perception though. (I am not at ALL attracted to this, btw. I actually find it a bit unsettling.)


    It kind of reminds me of an SLI female friend talking about an ESE female friend; the sli is actually more reserved with her body, but the ESE enjoyed walking around in little clothing when they shared a suite. I'm the same way really, even in that I don't care who sees me anymore. Less clothing is just more comfortable.

    I think it's more apparent, and yes, even cooler, in Si creatives than Si dominants because I'm rational and appreciate the rationality of it, but also because there is this certain sense that the Si-creativity 'sticks out' more, or is more expansive than the Si dominants. Si doms seem more self contained, more drawing.

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    The way I see it, holding out for a dual would mean not seeing people for who they are, but waiting on some perfect type, and then having to find a way to fit the type to the person. Waiting for the particular one dual with whom everything works is suspiciously like waiting for a "soulmate", which is something I find limiting and damaging. So I am trying to expand my personal options while learning more about a specific intertype relation. There hasn't been much discussion about partial duality and what it means.
    this is the crux of the problem with duality. finding the dual. risking waiting for the dual. i've been around the planet for 45 years now and although i can now remember some duals in my life, there were other things that got in the way of developing a relationship. and now, i don't see any, that i know of.

    life crowds in on you though, right? you turn 30, your biological clock starts ticking, you look around and say well? now what? or you get divorced, you look around at who else is free from the marital deck being re-shuffled and you try to decide who can you get along with, out of all the people who got divorced who have baggage. or you stay alone, embittered and tired from having to do everything yourself, waiting patiently for your dual that you don't have time to meet since you're running around like an asshole taking care of everything.

    all of which brings me to a very simple observation: not everyone gets to gets to be with their dual. i have been trying to figure out the meaning of this now for awhile.

    non dual relations find a way to work. certain expectations will not be met though. the experiment that i am trying right now is whether it makes a difference to be conscious of all this...for both people to be conscious of this from the start and to go forward in the relationship from that knowledge base so as to be able to work things out as we go.

    stay tuned.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Blaze, you're absolutely right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    Though I have not been in a relationship with an LIE, I have several of them as friends.

    Our interactions are incredibly easy and there is instant chemistry. Indeed we can talk about various topics of any nature, though they are commonly personal and private or general commentary on society, morality and such. There aren't any real problems in that sense.
    Yes, this is because EII and LIE are both positivist types who value Fi
    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    Something that I do find somewhat exhausting at times is related to their victim romantic persona. There are times when I have to somewhat 'force' them to realize that I still care for them by taking various actions. I think this is related to their Se-hidden agenda coupled with an Fi-dual seeking. This okay for me to do from time to time, but this can get tiring. Not that EIIs don't show that they care through actions, we do, but it does not have to be done as frequently with Si + Te types as with Ni + Te types, in my experience. Also, I think my somewhat clumsy nature can annoy them a bit. They sometimes expect me to be somewhat of a "goddess" in a way, aware of my surroundings, quick to take action when necessary and as sure as a person can be about themselves.

    What they are not receptive from me from time to time is my suggestions of how to "improve" them (Fi + Ne). If that makes any sense. Where with Si + Te types, they happily consider and sometimes take in my suggestions for self-improvement, Ni + Te usually have a clear idea about that kind of thing so find our help in those matters unnecessary.

    As to whether it is fatal: no, I don't think it is. I'm rather idealistic and feel that a bond between two people transcends type.

    And I too am curious as to what exactly is meant by "worshipful nature".
    This is very interesting, and I see it in my relationship with an ENTj. We have an awesome time together, but I can't see myself being in a romantic relationship with them, and they agree vice versa. We both need someone more masculine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Semi-duality is good overall because you're getting what you need from each other, but you have something in common, too. Your creative function is their 8th function (which is fun to indulge in at times) and vice versa. The problem is that the hidden agenda isn't met. There's no one there to handle Si and Se stuff.

    If I had to choose, I'd rather be with a semi-dual than a mirror, identical, or probably even activity (even though I'm often attracted to them). The temperament is right and they meet your dual seeking needs.
    Yes, in this way semi duality is even more fun than duality, but the missing hidden agenda dampens it. I find that after long periods of hanging out with an LIE, I always go away feeling let down. Yet their positivist attitude attracts me, and we have great discussions using Ni and Ne.

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